I need your opinion

Edward G · Mar 3, 2007

In my story, child sacrifice is a central element. I'm about to come to a scene where child sacrifice takes place. Should I show it or not?

I have no problem writing it, which is kind of scary in it's own psychological way, but I wouldn't want to put an editor or agent off. So, what do you think I should do?

On the one hand, I think it could add a titilating aspect to the narrative and also establish the criticality of the rescue that will occur with the second child. On the other hand, the details could be simply hinted at.

And let me save some of you the breath you're about to expend. It is true I have a problem with the over-description of sex; I apparently have no problem detailing graphic violence, even against a child. I realize that may be a rather sick set of priorities, and I really could not care less.

So, hit me with a big stick and let me know what you really think.

Gordon

PeeDee · Mar 3, 2007

The breath I was about to expend was to answer your question, actually. Settle, settle.

Write the scene. If it's effective, then great, it adds to your story and makes it gripping and interesting to read, and a bit disturbing. That's never a bad thing.

And then, when you go back through to do your edits, if the scene doesn't sit right (or if you have someone read your stories and they don't like it) then you can always take it out, or edit it down.

At this stage, it doesn't hurt to write it.

Cassiopeia · Mar 3, 2007

PeeDee said:
The breath I was about to expend was to answer your question, actually. Settle, settle.

Write the scene. If it's effective, then great, it adds to your story and makes it gripping and interesting to read, and a bit disturbing. That's never a bad thing.

And then, when you go back through to do your edits, if the scene doesn't sit right (or if you have someone read your stories and they don't like it) then you can always take it out, or edit it down.

At this stage, it doesn't hurt to write it.

As long as all he is doing is writing about it. :scared:

Hillgate · Mar 3, 2007

GordonJerome said:
In my story, child sacrifice is a central element. I'm about to come to a scene where child sacrifice takes place. Should I show it or not?

I have no problem writing it, which is kind of scary in it's own psychological way, but I wouldn't want to put an editor or agent off. So, what do you think I should do?

On the one hand, I think it could add a titilating aspect to the narrative and also establish the criticality of the rescue that will occur with the second child. On the other hand, the details could be simply hinted at.

And let me save some of you the breath you're about to expend. It is true I have a problem with the over-description of sex; I apparently have no problem detailing graphic violence, even against a child. I realize that may be a rather sick set of priorities, and I really could not care less.

So, hit me with a big stick and let me know what you really think.

Gordon

Are you on medication?

aadams73 · Mar 3, 2007

GordonJerome said:
In my story, child sacrifice is a central element. I'm about to come to a scene where child sacrifice takes place. Should I show it or not?

And let me save some of you the breath you're about to expend. It is true I have a problem with the over-description of sex; I apparently have no problem detailing graphic violence, even against a child. I realize that may be a rather sick set of priorities, and I really could not care less.

I think gruesome details should be hinted at for maximum effect.

And that bottom paragraph? That's that same old arrogant BS you always pull.

Cassiopeia · Mar 3, 2007

GordonJerome said:
In my story, child sacrifice is a central element. I'm about to come to a scene where child sacrifice takes place. Should I show it or not?

I have no problem writing it, which is kind of scary in it's own psychological way, but I wouldn't want to put an editor or agent off. So, what do you think I should do?

On the one hand, I think it could add a titilating aspect to the narrative and also establish the criticality of the rescue that will occur with the second child. On the other hand, the details could be simply hinted at.

And let me save some of you the breath you're about to expend. It is true I have a problem with the over-description of sex; I apparently have no problem detailing graphic violence, even against a child. I realize that may be a rather sick set of priorities, and I really could not care less.

So, hit me with a big stick and let me know what you really think.

Gordon

I think you should be able to write a convincing enough horror story without the sacrifice of a child. Sorry, mother of three here and I refuse to read a book or see a movie about anything to do with a child abdution...sacrifice or any harm to a child. It is absolutely unnecessary and THAT is my opinion.

Siddow · Mar 3, 2007

I'm sort of with Pee Dee on this, Gordon. Write it. If it works, great. If it's a turn off, you can always cut it out.

While you're at it, write the scene again without the graphic depiction. Nothing is set until the book is in the hands of the public.

For agent and editor purposes, though, you'll probably be better off without the graphic scene. Even people who don't have children will find it too disgusting and horrifying to continue reading.

And watch it with inviting people to come after you with a big stick. We just might do that.

thepainpasses · Mar 3, 2007

It depends on the genre. If your story were a romance, for example, about detectives solving a string of child sacrifices, but it were primarily about the ooey-gooey romance aspects, leave the details out.

If the story were primarly horror/psychological, or something/horror...put the details in. It all depends on if this scene is contributing to the main genre of your story.

Rolling Thunder · Mar 3, 2007

A bit off the main topic but hope it helps at this point you're at.

Either way you go, just keep a running list of copies filed as revised drafts. I find this works well (for me at least) so I can go back and see if I've improved or butchered *smirk* the work (sorry about that, it was the first word that came to mind). Plus, you can always go back and snip what works better and drop it back in the current WIP to judge the power or weakness of certain parts.

I'm not sure what software you use, Gordon, but I use MS Word. The 'Track Changes' option under tools is a great feature. If you're not using Word there should still be an option somewhere. If you're using the feature just ignore me; If not, you'll find it of great use.

Now, back on topic a bit more. You're writing ghost stories/horror if I remember correctly, so you might want to check with some of the regulars who write in the horror forum. I don't think a graphic description of a child sacrifice is a bad thing even though a publisher might. But, as it's already been said by others, you can always tone it down and leave much to the imagination of the reader.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=44

scarletpeaches · Mar 3, 2007

If it's necessary, write it. I'm with you on the graphic sex thing, though. SOMETIMES it is necessary but is used far more often than it should be and ends up looking as if it was stuck in there to give the reader a cheap thrill. Or even the writer!

Same with violence. I think it's possible to describe a violent act without going into too much detail. For instance, I've read crime novels describing serial murder and rape, and you know what's happening; you're just not forced to endure it word by tedious word.

But try not to put people's backs up by saying things like this:

And let me save some of you the breath you're about to expend. It is true I have a problem with the over-description of sex; I apparently have no problem detailing graphic violence, even against a child. I realize that may be a rather sick set of priorities, and I really could not care less.

If you want advice from fellow writers, then take it and don't throw your dollies out of the pram before anyone's even replied to your request. If you really couldn't care less what other people think of you, then stop asking for their opinion. It makes one look petulant, to pre-empt others like this.

Ol' Fashioned Girl · Mar 3, 2007

Down here in Okiehoma, we call that 'screamin' 'fore yer bit'. And I probably ought to save my opinions for people who really want 'em, but I'll go along with the 'write it full out now and tone it down, if necessary' crowd.

CaroGirl · Mar 3, 2007

Most scenes of graphic sex or violence are much more effective if just hinted at than explained in every gory detail. Pick up some novels of writers whose work you admire (if there are any who aren't yourself) and see how they handle the type of scene you have in mind. Choose the style that best fits your story and write it. When you reread it during the rewriting and editing phase, you should have some idea whether it works or you should write it differently, or dump it altogether.

Elodie-Caroline · Mar 3, 2007

I don't think I could describe this as titillating, it certainly wouldn't titillate me, it would horrify me, and I'm not even a mum. But, if it's part of the story, it's part of the story, and should be told in my opinion.

I have two novels that are a bit risque too. One is finished and tells of a child being sexually abused, thirty years ago. It's not graphic, but readers will know what used to happen to this woman when she was a child, after all, it's what's made her whom she is now.
My other one, which is only three-quarters the way through, has a graphic rape scene in it. I know that some publishers wouldn't take these on, from what I've read on here, but I guess we just have to try as many publishers as we can, without having to massacre our work to do so.
Child sacrifice is known throughout history, so is rape and child sexual abuse. Just because people don't like it, as I myself don't, doesn't mean that you shouldn't write about it.

Elodie

GordonJerome said:
On the one hand, I think it could add a titilating aspect to the narrative and also establish the criticality of the rescue that will occur with the second child. On the other hand, the details could be simply hinted at.

Anonymisty · Mar 3, 2007

After I saw the movie Kiss the Girls, I liked it enough that I wanted to read the book. The book had a scene that absolutely turned my stomach, and convinced me I'd never read another book by that author. But as far as I can tell, James Patterson hasn't suffered from the loss of my attention.

In other words, write your scene. Just because I won't read something like that doesn't mean someone else won't. If you feel it enhances the story the way it is, finish the book and submit it to an agent. If the agent tells you it doesn't belong, rewrite.

Azure Skye · Mar 3, 2007

This is just one reader's opinion and trust me, it's not gospel. As a reader, I prefer the violence to occur offstage. Describing it later without going into detail is good. This goes for murder, rape, beatings, and so forth. However, if it works for the story, then include it, she says sheepishly.

Sex, on the other hand, should be described in full detail.

Will Lavender · Mar 3, 2007

Anonymisty said:
After I saw the movie Kiss the Girls, I liked it enough that I wanted to read the book. The book had a scene that absolutely turned my stomach, and convinced me I'd never read another book by that author. But as far as I can tell, James Patterson hasn't suffered from the loss of my attention.

In his new book on the thriller genre, The Triumph of the Thriller, author Patrick Anderson says the same thing. Anderson says he reviewed one of the author's books (can't remember what the title was) and vowed to never read Patterson again.

He launches into a 5- or 6-page tirade against Patterson, ripping the author apart for a variety of sins -- one of which is an excessive and gratuitous use of violence.

I've never read Patterson, nor will I ever. There are some shocking things in Anderson's book about how Patterson got into writing, and how his books are published. It's all very underhanded and...cheap.

Anderson is the book critic for The Washington Post.

PeeDee · Mar 3, 2007

Anderson isn't always a useful opinion to listen to. He gets very petty. Yes, James Patterson uses violence. Sure thing. But when you live in a world of Thomas Harris and Stephen King (and out of the three names mentioned here, I only enjoy Steve King's books reliably) it's a little silly to point at Patterson and go "He uses violence too much!"

Sean D. Schaffer · Mar 3, 2007

Well, Gordon, I think if the story demands it, you should write it. If it moves the story forward, then yeah, go ahead.

I've seen films--I think Beastmaster, if I'm not mistaken, from sometime in the 1980's, is a decent example--where child sacrifices were made.

But like others have pointed out, I think it would be detrimental to your work if you wrote it out in graphic detail. I agree the sacrifice should be more hinted at or that it should be described with minimal detail so as to keep shock value without going overboard.

I hope this helps, and good luck with your manuscript.

Will Lavender · Mar 3, 2007

PeeDee said:
Anderson isn't always a useful opinion to listen to. He gets very petty. Yes, James Patterson uses violence. Sure thing. But when you live in a world of Thomas Harris and Stephen King (and out of the three names mentioned here, I only enjoy Steve King's books reliably) it's a little silly to point at Patterson and go "He uses violence too much!"

I had never read Anderson until this book.

But it's funny you say this, because he has a chapter solely on Thomas Harris. Along with Dennis Lehane, George Pelecanos, and somebody else I can't remember, Anderson annoints Harris one of the masters of the genre.

Having never read James Patterson I'm an ignorant source here, but I have read Thomas Harris. (And I don't like him; Hannibal was one of the worst genre exercises I've read.) BUT Harris uses violence as a sort of plot-enhancer, as a trope. As irony, even.

If what Anderson -- and the above poster -- says about Patterson is right, then he's just using violence for violence's sake.

PeeDee · Mar 3, 2007

Harris's Silence of the Lambs was really good. I really enjoyed it a great deal. I thought it was well-written and interesting and visceral, a word I'd never applied to a novel before.

That was the first and last book by him that I enjoyed in any respect. By the time we get to 2007 and Hannibal Rising, I've stopped even trying.

scarletpeaches · Mar 3, 2007

Will Lavender said:
...There are some shocking things in Anderson's book about how Patterson got into writing, and how his books are published. It's all very underhanded and...cheap...

Do tell. Even by PM. You have me intrigued!

Birol · Mar 3, 2007

Gang, I understand why you're grumbling about the last paragraph of Gordon's post, but try to ease up a little bit, okay? Give him a chance to more fully acclimate to AW.

Gordon, try not to presume to know how people will react before they have a chance. That just creates self-fulfilling prophesies. Given the opportunity, people might pleasantly surprise you.

Judg · Mar 3, 2007

If you write it out graphically, you will limit your readership and the agents who are willing to deal with you. Miss Snark, among others, has said flat out she refuses to take on books like that. Orson Scott Card wrote a novel that included child sacrifice. It is, I believe, his least popular, and one that I refused to read again.

I'm also stalled on a book I started reading months ago. The writing is incredibly good. But it's pretty obvious that in the next scene the protagonist, still a young girl at this point, is going to be gang-raped (the foreshadowing has been too effective) and I can't make myself read it.

Of course, any book at all is limited in its readership, but still, it's something you might want to consider. One thing for sure, if that scene is in there, I will refuse to take it out of the library, much less than buy it. Caveat: I am rarely indicative of popular trends.

PeeDee · Mar 3, 2007

When I said "write it out" earlier, the important bit of my post was pointing out that you would then be able to get rid of it. Sometimes, you have to write something in order to understand that you don't need it.

As for the level of detail, you only need so much anyway. You don't want to do an action-by-action level of detail, because would you do that with other scenes in the story? Probably not.

You don't have to say And then the executor used a large metal hook to pull out little Timmy's intestines because this adds little to the story.

You can say ...and then, the hand holding the knife over Timmy came down. and step on to the next scene. Even that's a bit of a lazy sentence, but you get the idea.

brunoshouse · Mar 3, 2007

I too abhor violence, especially against children. It is ugly and frightening and I wish we could keep it out of sight. Unfortunately it is a terrible fact of life in this world we reside in.

If it isn't used just for shock value and serves a purpose in the story, I say go ahead, but be aware it probably will turn some readers off.

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