Europeans and Westerns

[ShapeSphere]

I've not written any Westerns, but as a keen reader of history I've read a little about this period. Also enjoyed the "Recommended reading for Westerns" thread.

Some questions.

Surely with the large influx of Europeans; British, Irish, Germans, Italians, etc.; into America during the 1800s (and before/after) they would have played a more prominent role in real Western life?

Movies, literature and history seem to portray a world where everybody had already acquired an "American" accent, persona, tradition, yet had no traces of their very recent European ancestry.

Do you think this is an unimportant or irrelevant matter? Maybe society had already homogenised during this time due to immigration occurring over a long period? Maybe as soon as these Europeans landed they were quickly absorbed into a fluid society? Maybe it truly was a melting pot?

[veinglory]

I think the west being iconically "American" has become part of the mythos. ...Along everyone looking like John Wayne, using pistols instead of the far more useful shotgun and wearing modern looking clothes rather than the grubby suits and handbar moustaches that were all the rage :) (Oh and the Pony Express being a short lived disaster of a company)

[ShapeSphere]

I think the west being iconically "American" has become part of the mythos. ...

Yes. But I want to get past the mythos. What really happened? Where are those books or stories on real life?

[veinglory]

They are out there but there are various nuances in language to separate them from "Wild West" stuff. I tend to go for the myth not the substance but I am sure someone else here can point you at more accurate works :)

[Puma]

Hi ShapeSphere - There are some books that show European carryovers in Americans (The Earth Abideth by George Dell set in Ohio 1860 to 1900 has some German characters) but right off the top of my head I can't think of any ones set in the west with too much other than Spanish influence (the Zorro books). I think it also may be true that writers in earlier periods may have incorporated European characters more than ones have since about 1940.

There's the challenge in the western forum for the rodeo write-up. I did some Googling on rodeos and discovered that the first rodeo was in Deer Trail, Colorado on July 4, 1869. The winner of the bucking bronc contest was described by the newspapers as an Englishman. So there was recognition of the European roots. There's also a lot of information about the Spanish origin of rodeos. Actually, there's a lot of information about the American West available via Google and doing a search may lead you to some books to read. Try it. Puma

[Cav Guy]

Actually it depends totally on what you read. Many of the recent immigrants during this time went into the Army, and the private or sergeant with a thick Irish accent was a stock character in Charles King's Frontier Army westerns, and also shows up in Terry Johnston's more recent Plainsman series (his main character is also Irish and starts the series with a heavy accent which he loses over time). You'll also come across an Italian or Basque sheepherder from time to time as well. Many of Louis L'Amour's characters were of Irish origin, though he didn't always write in dialect.

Reference the weapon question/comment: the shotgun wasn't commonly used by mounted men (cowboys) because it was too bulky and almost impossible to use well on horseback. The pistol had far too many practical advantages at the time (not the least of which was its ability to fire up to six shots without needing to be reloaded), so it was the primary carry weapon. Note that I said "carry weapon," as many more experienced lawmen (and outlaws) would reach for a shotgun if they had some work to do that might require them to hit more than one opponent quickly.

As for books on the 'real' West, there are tons out there. Start with "Writer's Guide to Everyday Life in the Wild West" and work your way out using that book's excellent source list. The Cattle Towns by Dykstra provides a (for the time) new look at the main cattle towns in Kansas, dispelling some of the myths that have grown up around places like Dodge.

I think another thing that you need to consider with this question is the settlement patterns of the West. Most of the single, male immigrants you ask about would have joined the Western movement as prospectors or soldiers (during this time almost half of the Army was of foreign origin - Irish and German in the majority and a wide scattering of others). The families came later, financing being an important factor (Homestead Act aside, you still had to get West before you could claim the land, and that was expensive). What many don't realize is that there were a number of settlement drives in the West, and many of the immigrant families came in after the basic historical period of the traditional Western (1866 through 1891 or so, although we are seeing stories now that expand those dates).

[ShapeSphere]

Many thanks for all the replies.

Puma - I am well aware of the merits of Google. It would be difficult to be unaware considering that I am sat at a computer and using the Internet. In a sense 90% of all questions asked on Absolute Write could be directed to Google. That would make the forum almost redundant I believe. My initiative was not just to get book recommendations, but to generate some discussion on a new part of the forum and get some personal opinions. I thought people might welcome this idea.

Thanks for the great info Cav Guy - I think a book such as "Writer's Guide to Everyday Life in the Wild West" sounds excellent. :D

[Puma]

ShapeSphere - You might be surprised then that many people aren't aware of what can be found through Google (and how to use it most effectively) and what all is available on the internet. Sorry if I offended you. Puma

[Cav Guy]

One of the things people tend to lose track of when talking about the West is the nature of the various migrations that took place. As I mentioned before, moving West was expensive, and most of those who took the Oregon Trail (to name but one route) sold all they had in order to do so. A recent immigrant wouldn't have anything to sell, and would most likely be facing a major debt just for getting to America in the first place. You did see "colonies," or groups composed of a specific ethnic group (Germans were known for this, but there were others as well) moving as a unit and then settling in a specific region. Most often, though, recent immigrants either stayed in the larger cities (due to lack of funds, work commitments, or finding an existing ethnic enclave) or found small farmsteads in the more settled regions.

Prospectors were a different matter, coming West in huge waves any time word traveled about a "big strike." But the mining camps tended to practice a kind of assimilation all their own, and miners became a sort of migrating sub-ethnic group on the Frontier. Men would start in California, follow the strikes to Idaho or Nevada, then to Arizona, South Dakota, Montana, and Alaska.

I thought this was a good, reasonable question and not necessarily one that could be answered through a web search alone. The nature of the move west has been debated in historical circles for many, many years and is subject to vigorous debate today.

[ShapeSphere]

ShapeSphere - You might be surprised then that many people aren't aware of what can be found through Google (and how to use it most effectively) and what all is available on the internet. Sorry if I offended you. Puma

Puma - You've not offended me. :D I just wanted to get some personal opinions on this subject and explain my original post more. If a person was to come on this forum and say, "Hey man like wot gives with all the europaens dat went too amerrica?" - then I'd probably direct them to Google and a dictionary. But my original post didn't say that.

Cav Guy - Thanks for the very interesting information. I am going to look around the net more as I am keen to learn about all these nationalities (Basque! etc.) mixing around.

I prefer books to movies, but what are people's opinions on realistic Western movies? I vaguely recall elements of Unforgiven having a gunfight with people misfiring or being scared and Richard Harris turning up as an "Englishman". That seemed novel at the time. Surely there must be movies that present something even more pragmatic? I can't remember ever having seen one. Do they exist? Or would such a movie be a no-hoper?

[Festus]

ShapeSphere,

I just wanted to thank you for bringing this up! All different kinds of stories come to mind with folks from all over the world. There are many yet to be written.

Why not try and write some of these stories and post them? I would like to see your work and you'd surely be welcome amongst us with it.

Cav, as always, your historical knowledge blows me away!

Thanks again, ShapeSphere!

Festus

[Cav Guy]

Puma - You've not offended me. :D I just wanted to get some personal opinions on this subject and explain my original post more. If a person was to come on this forum and say, "Hey man like wot gives with all the europaens dat went too amerrica?" - then I'd probably direct them to Google and a dictionary. But my original post didn't say that.

Cav Guy - Thanks for the very interesting information. I am going to look around the net more as I am keen to learn about all these nationalities (Basque! etc.) mixing around.

I prefer books to movies, but what are people's opinions on realistic Western movies? I vaguely recall elements of Unforgiven having a gunfight with people misfiring or being scared and Richard Harris turning up as an "Englishman". That seemed novel at the time. Surely there must be movies that present something even more pragmatic? I can't remember ever having seen one. Do they exist? Or would such a movie be a no-hoper?

I tend to prefer the more realistic stuff to the sugar-coated stuff (hence my preference for Gunsmoke over The Rifleman, for example). What made Richard Harris' character stand out as "English Bob" is the fact that he was a paid troubleshooter (literally) for the railroads and (if memory serves) an exhibition shooter. If you watch Pale Rider you'll see a Swedish (or at least Scandinavian) miner in one of the early scenes, and there are a number of Irish miners as well. Eastwood is good at showing the mix that settled the West.

[JeanneTGC]

The Dee Brown books do a good job of making the history of the West interesting.

What's key to me is the vast amount of disagreement (if you will) between the various reference books available. I have one that literally contradicts ITSELF in terms of when Ed Masterson was killed. I have one that claims no record of the real name of Old Man Clanton exists, when I am also sitting with one that gives not only his full Christian name but the names of all the family from him and his relatives as well.

There were a lot of Brits involved in the Lincoln County War, as well as many who were big cattlemen of the day. Just like there was (pulling from memory, without looking it up to verify) one Negro cowboy for every 3 whites; same with Mexican. The Chinese were treated far worse out in the west than most Negroes or Mexicans -- they don't get mentioned as much because they were doing the hard labor on the railroads.

The West was a decent hodgepodge of folks. As far as I can tell, it just wasn't considered exceptional, so there wasn't a lot of fuss made about it. Calling someone an Englishman could have been taken as derogatory, but also could just as easily have been to easily identify him. It's become cliched, but if you're trying to survive in a hostile environment, it's more important if the person with you can shoot straight or has survival skills than if they have an accent or not.

[veinglory]

It is my impression that through much of the period being to some degree "British" would put you in the majority. I think we push back (inaccurately) the current feeling of being American and what American is, especially to the earlier parts of the period where geographical allegiances were much more diverse.

[ShapeSphere]

Why not try and write some of these stories and post them? I would like to see your work and you'd surely be welcome amongst us with it.

I'd need to know a lot more about the genre before even thinking about writing a Western. :D I am working on science fiction/fantasy stories at the moment. Easier for me.

Here in Japan I was surprised to come across the Wild West magazine in a bookstore in Osaka. I just had a quick look at the publisher's website www.TheHistoryNet.com (http://www.historynet.com/) again and there was a piece on Chinese immigrants (http://www.historynet.com/exploration/westward_expansion/3037936.html?featured=y&c=y). Plenty more in the Westward Expansion section. I wish I physically had the time to read all the stuff I find interesting! (I find all history fascinating).

What magazines do you read regard this genre? Maybe you've had articles published?

[dpaterso]

I'd need to know a lot more about the genre before even thinking about writing a Western. :D I am working on science fiction/fantasy stories at the moment. Easier for me.
Me too, by inclination, tho' a lot of my Sci-Fi tales have undeniably Western origins. Over the years I've seen "This story is like High Noon in space!" more than any other comment. :) If I consciously drop the Sci-Fi trappings then I find I'm writing stories set in an imaginary West (painted by the TV shows and books I watched and read in the late '60s and early '70s).

-Derek

[Festus]

Shapesphere, Actually I've read very few western magazines, though I may subscribe to one or two in the future. I have always preferred books to short story magazines.

Growing up in a cowtown as I did also helps me considerably.

I'd recommend to you a source for brass tacks history in reading the first hand accounts on Ol' Fashioned Girl's links. Truly remarkable. Derek has also posted some great links to free Zane Grey stories that may help.

Read some of the books recommended, then fill your holster, Pard, and let us read your western!

Festus

[Cav Guy]

The magazine referred to is more of a glossy history magazine than a short story magazine. Sadly, I don't think there is a major Western short story magazine since the L'Amour one went under (though I could be wrong, and I'd appreciate any links that point us to a major print one - not online).

[Festus]

I've heard tell that True West is a good magazine, though I've not read one yet.

[JeanneTGC]

I've heard tell that True West is a good magazine, though I've not read one yet.
It's very good, and Bob Boze Bell is a truly lovely man. I've had the good fortune to meet and spend some time with him.

BTW, he looks almost exactly like the only known photo of Mysterious Dave Mather.

[Festus]

Jeanne. Neat! Thank you!

[Kentuk]

Cav Guy has it right, New York was growing so fast it was hard to get out. Then there is the fact that immigrant farmers were about he least sexy people on earth and avoided the fun places in the west we all like to read about.

[JeanneTGC]

Frankly, by modern standards, most of the folks in the Old West were not glamorous, sexy or even attractive. Let's talk about bathing, shall we? Or rather, let's not...it happened so infrequently and all.

But, while I like knowing the truth, I enjoy writing within the mythos of the Old West that authors -- of books, screenplays and TV shows -- have created.

[Cav Guy]

As I've mentioned before, I like writing a blend. I use the mythos, but in many cases there are historical folks and events out there that are far more interesting. That's one of the things that attracted me to Westerns in the first place - the blend of the two.

[JeanneTGC]

Me too. What I hate is when the history portion is truly all wrong.

I mentioned it in another thread, but "Winchester 77", while being one of my fave Westerns, is among the worst offenders. The first 3rd starts in Dodge, and portrays Wyatt and Virgil Earp as old men. Old men of about 29 and 34 in reality. I can't watch the first 3rd anymore, because I end up SCREAMING at the screen, "Viril was NOT a doddering old codger in 1877 you morons!" It tends to ruin the movie for others.

[Cav Guy]

I have the same problem. Like when an author has a character in 1866 using a Winchester or Peacemaker. Just sends me through the roof.:rant:

[Leva]

The old west was indeed a lot more ethnically diverse than many people realize, but so was America at that time. There were quite a few Blacks and Asians in the old west, as well as hodgepodge of Europeans ...

Y'know, one movie that shows this really well is a made-for-tv movie called The Ballad of Little Joe. This might have been made by Lifetime, but I'm not 100% certain of the network ... it was released on VHS, but I'm not sure about on DVD. VERY good movie -- historically accurate without being dry. About a woman who dresses as a man for her whole life, and her Asian boyfriend, who was the only person who knew she was female. Plausible story -- she went west after gold, and ended up raising sheep.

[Festus]

Wecome, Leva! Actually there were several women who impersonated men and got away with it. Some served in the Army, etc.

I don't know your reading tastes, but Terry Pratchett has a book called the Monstrous Regiment that is about a young lady serving in the military diguised as a man. It's a humor fantasy, and a good read.

I would like to encourage you to submit a story in our 'share your work' Western Forum.

:-)

[JeanneTGC]

Wecome, Leva! Actually there were several women who impersonated men and got away with it. Some served in the Army, etc.

I don't know your reading tastes, but Terry Pratchett has a book called the Monstrous Regiment that is about a young lady serving in the military diguised as a man. It's a humor fantasy, and a good read.

I would like to encourage you to submit a story in our 'share your work' Western Forum.

:-)
I love Pratchett. He's my favorite living author. Great Pratchett thread over in the Book Club forum, btw.

I know it's an odd take, but I've always thought of the early Watch books as almost being more like Westerns than not. Probably because of the few men against odds thing. Particularly "Guards, Guards!" -- I feel like it's a version of High Noon turned on its side and seen through a prism.

[Festus]

Jeanne,

I agree with you. Pratchett can make a rock laugh and his stories all have remarkable perception of humanity in all its forms.

You know, I'd never considered the western aspect of his writings. In pondering on that........you are absolutely right!

Hmmmmm, I owe Derek more sweaty sock sauce............. :-)

[Leva]

Hi Festus,

I've been mulling over a romance that'd probably qualify as a modern-day western, but I don't write much historical stuff. Read a lot, but don't write it.

Can't remember if I mentioned this on this board -- I know I've meant to ... my father's got a cabin only a few miles from the site of Zane Grey's cabin in Arizona. It's very cool to recognize that he was writing about the same country that I've spent a great deal of time exploring.

Leva

Wecome, Leva! Actually there were several women who impersonated men and got away with it. Some served in the Army, etc.

I don't know your reading tastes, but Terry Pratchett has a book called the Monstrous Regiment that is about a young lady serving in the military diguised as a man. It's a humor fantasy, and a good read.

I would like to encourage you to submit a story in our 'share your work' Western Forum.

:-)

[Marsha Ward]

Can't remember if I mentioned this on this board -- I know I've meant to ... my father's got a cabin only a few miles from the site of Zane Grey's cabin in Arizona. It's very cool to recognize that he was writing about the same country that I've spent a great deal of time exploring.

Leva

I'm a new member of the forum. I live within five miles of the cabin site. Here's a shout out to all Arizona members.

Marsha Ward
Writer in the Pines (http://marshaward.blogspot.com) blog

[JeanneTGC]

I'm a new member of the forum. I live within five miles of the cabin site. Here's a shout out to all Arizona members.

Marsha Ward
Writer in the Pines (http://marshaward.blogspot.com) blog
Cool! And, btw, welcome, welcome! Especially to another Arizonan!

[Marsha Ward]

Cool! And, btw, welcome, welcome! Especially to another Arizonan!

Thanks. There seem to be a couple or three of us here.

[Dustry Joe]

There have been some really great Westerns set in Australia...and not that different-looking from American West.

Mexico also has a distinct "Western" culture with a vocabulary slightly different from the Norte version.

Argentina has a cattle-ranching body of literature, with knife-toting guachos instead of six gun cowpokes.

One thing many don't realize is that they "Old West" wasn't that long ago, especially in remoter areas like Oregon and Washington...much less Yukon and Alaska.
My grandfather personally saw Indian wars and shootouts in saloons.

One thing you have to realize is that much of the stamp of the old west is overlaid by Hollywood dramatics. You see so many saloon scenes played out in the "Gunsmoke" like saloons on the Warner backllot, then see something like "McCabe and Mrs. Miller", where the sallon is a miserable dugout with ugly Indian whores instead of cute blondes and realize instantly that it's more like things were in many places.

One classic dramatic moment or the Hollywood Western is two guys standing in the street ready to see who is the fastest draw. How many times something like that actually happened is a matter of conjecture, but I'd say not bloody often.

Likewise, nothing is more thrilling than a band of outlaws riding horses and shooting at a fleeing stage coach. Except that it's a completely idiotic way to try to hold up a stage or train. Unlikely to have a lot of historical antecedents.

[Dustry Joe]

Regarding women as men: I was watching a movie with a girlfriend. It featured a bunch of cowgirls played by Drew Barrymore, Andie McDowell and such who turned into gunslingers and started shooting up men because they needed shootin' up.

In discussing it, I mentioned that there weren't really a whole lot of female gunslingers running around the old west.

She reflexively said, "Well, they weren't accepted." Then it hit her and she started laughing. I think you'd have to say that one of the good things about being a gunslinger is that you create your own level of acceptance.

[dpaterso]

Them's good points, methinks realism is something we're all aiming for, to some degree or other. I'm not a strictly historical writer but I try not to abuse the boundaries of accuracy and reality too much.

-Derek