Uh oh! James negotiates price!

[James]

Yup, even price can be negotiated with PA amicably.

It's a much different thing when you treat them with respect instead of blazing in angry and accusing them of false things.

Check out my book cover, too.

www.angelfire.com/scifi2/writerguy

James

[James D Macdonald]

Congratulations on your negotiated price!

What will the cover price be, how many pages will your book run, and when will it be coming out?


=========

Yo momma is so fat, when she sits around the house she sits around the house.

[Cat Jones]

Uh oh! I have been playing voyeur with these posts, and I am really just an outsider. I have and will never established any kind of relationship with PA or any of their ilk.

I have just one thing to ask. How is it James, that you would expect anyone to find anything you say credible when you constantly give vague details. You trumpet in here defending PA with all of these wonderful ideas about what you were able to work out for yourself, but never once have you been willing to actually state the nature of your beneficial negotiations. I negotiated price, I negotiated books given to me, I never gave them a list, I negotiated EVERYTHING and yet you can't even state what it is you have accomplished. Always some excuse, I want them to shoot higher, I don't want anyone jealous if they aren't good enough to get the same, etc.

From an outsiders perspective, it only makes both you and PA sound less and less reputable. Obviously, if you were able to negotiate all of this and everyone else is getting shafted, then everyone else is still getting shafted. Obviously, if you can change every single detail of their offered contract, they have absolutely nothing standard, AND they are aware that what they offer initially is far from fair. If you are truly the Great and Wonderful James, out there to help authors see the light of PA, then I feel your crusade should be aimed at assisting authors in actually getting these negotiations started. It only helps your cause if more authors feel like they were treated fairly by PA. Instead you brag and argue and help no one. People still walk away from signing their PA contracts disappointed and telling everyone exactly what they got.

Your mystery only creates confusion and defeats the purpose of stating it's negotiable in the first place. If you are under a gag order to never tell your personal negotiated rewards, then state that. At least that would be something factual and straight forward.

Just an opinion. I have no facts, besides those that straight forward people on this board were willing to point out and BACK UP.

[James]

The price can be verified fairly easily.

As for the rest, I do help PA authors. I do so in private email between myself and them. I don't need to drag their laundry onto this message board just so I can look credible in your eyes (who are you?). In the world of business it isn't polite to discuss contract details (we don't tell each other what our wages are at work for the same reasons) because it can cause ill feelings.

The fact is this: I negotiated my contract, including the price of my book, because I ASKED. Period. Considering they took my first offer I'm willing to bet I could have done better had it not been for "those" people (who know who they are) that made me think I wouldn't even get what I did.

If you are worried that I'm not helping anyone with what I've learned rest assured I am. But I'm not going to do it here on this board.

"Your mystery only creates confusion and defeats the purpose of stating it's negotiable in the first place. If you are under a gag order to never tell your personal negotiated rewards, then state that. At least that would be something factual and straight forward."

Kind of like if I hinted that a detective was investigating PA due to an author who may be laying criminal charges against them, only to have that author later on write a post saying that s/he feels silly for jumping the gun and getting the police involved in the first place?

I don't defend PA, nor do I berate them. I'm just tired of the half-truths perpetuated by those who feel it's their duty to win their crusade at all costs.

James

[Cat Jones]

I appreciate your response. I also apologize for the sniping, >insert another less choice word here< tone of my post. Not for what I asked/said, mind you, but the attitude with which it was put.

I understand the nature of these "arguments" and discussions, and I definitely understand the inpropriety involved in discussing numbers in business. It seems these discussions are far from businesslike though...:lol .

Joking aside, I admire your ability to keep up and defend your position and intelligence in negotiations. I do not think PA is a legitimate source of publication. There are precious few, presumably like yourself, who will step into their world with a fair understanding of what it is they get. And deign to ask for better. Too many, I think, will find themselves in the land of Poetry.Com like positions. Appreciating too greatly what amounts to too little.

Again, my opinion only. You apparently have a niche. You will have to let us know how your book does. And I am glad you are there for some of the lost and wandering sheep.

[James]

Okay Cat, first Vicki, then James M., then Dave, and now you...
I have to say I'm getting uncomfortable with the kindness coming my way and am vying for the old days when my posts demanded the setting up of a Take It Outside Board. (Sorry Jenna. I'm trying to annoy everybody!) Cat, are you purposefully trying to ruin my reputation? (Sarcasm, sarcasm.)

Don't worry about it Cat (the attitude in your post) I've gotten quite used to the fact that non-PA writers automatically treat me with disdain simply for my association with my publisher. As a side note, I've also gotten quite used to the fact that PA writers treat me with disdain simply for being me...

In my first year of creative writing, my prof told me this: when you write, it's art. When you publish, it's product. And that's pretty much the attitude I take with my work. PA is "giving" me nothing. I'm allowing THEM to publish my work, and that's how I see it.

As of right now, my book is on preorder where I work and doing nicely (for being in the system for a couple days). I'm setting myself up to talk at schools for $200 a talk twice a week, which is (in my opinion) much better than a book launch (which I turned down - waste of my time, in my opinion). It's nice to know most of you have gone from wishing me to crash and burn to having success.

James

[James D Macdonald]

Oh, dear, James. I must have been unclear. I've always wished you the very best. Alas, wishing you well does not preclude predicting that you're going to crash and burn -- which I do predict -- based on your choice of publisher.

You're right about school and library gigs. I do those myself. It gets old pretty fast, the travel is a pain, and they take time out of your writing day, but you can make 'em pretty lucrative if you hustle. I'm concerned that your choice of publisher may limit you there, too, and the gigs dry up if you don't have a supply of new material coming out.

Book launches, as I've said before, are a waste of time and money. I'm glad you've decided to skip that step.

========

Yo momma is so poor, burglars break into her house and leave money.

[James]

"Alas, wishing you well does not preclude predicting that you're going to crash and burn -- which I do predict -- based on your choice of publisher."

Maybe you could predict me the lotto numbers instead. ;) Or if I'm going to marry that cute girl I met on my commute today...

"You're right about school and library gigs. I do those myself. It gets old pretty fast, the travel is a pain, and they take time out of your writing day, but you can make 'em pretty lucrative if you hustle."

Again, I am in a unique position. I work in the very store where 99% of schools/libraries shop. They trust my recommendations (I have good taste ;) ) and, well, like me.

As for it getting old fast, that's why I'm setting up 2/week.

"I'm concerned that your choice of publisher may limit you there, too, and the gigs dry up if you don't have a supply of new material coming out."

Hey, if no one else picks up my next book I'm sure PA will.

"Book launches, as I've said before, are a waste of time and money. I'm glad you've decided to skip that step."

I work in a bookstore, I see how book launches go. Small name authors have a night of friends and family, big names get paid big money for showing up. If I want a night where my friends and family ohh and ahh over my book I'd rather just do it in a nice restaurant. At least there I have the opportunity to hit on the cute waitress (isn't that why we all, really, write?)

James

[Evil Genius]

James stated, "At least there I have the opportunity to hit on the cute waitress (isn't that why we all, really, write?)"

So, that's why women write, also? I didn't know that. ;)
Of course, if James is just after women, it doesn't matter if his books are successful. Those just have to be published. Right?

James also stated, "Hey, if no one else picks up my next book I'm sure PA will."

So, if James' next book is terrible, they'll still publish it. I can see why he trusts them. Reading into his statement, it's easy to surmise that they don't require ability or quality in what they publish.

[SiverMask]

James, I think you're just acting blind to the bad news of PA. Despite all the arguments, you're only willing to see in one direction. Which basically means that even if anyone says anything about the bad contract terms, you go, "Oh, but I already know what I'm getting into." To the lack of editing, " Oh, but they do change my grammar and punctuation." To the lack of publicity for books, you go, "Oh yes, I know they don't publicise, but I can do that for myself."

If you don't mind, may I remind you that this topic on PA used to be on The Bewares Board, the reason of which is to warn or inform authors about unscrupulous or misleading publishers. And even if PA is not the former, would u not at least agree it is the latter?

After all, PA did state that its books are stocked in brick and mortar stores. So tell me, does the bookstore u work at and the bookstores you visit stock any books published by PA? (Please don't tell me you're from Canada so the books aren't stocked there!! After all PA do ship their books to Canada, do they not? ) I know the bookstores I visit don't. And so many others have said that most bookstores don't stock PA books (Don't tell me to provide proof, unless you can provide proof that they do. Currently, we have to take the word of the many authors who say that they don't see PA books in bookstores.) Thus, could you not say that PA is misleading aspiring authors by saying that their books are widely stocked in brick and mortar stores? Considering that they are misleading aspiring authors, don't aspiring authors deserve to be warned about them? If you still disagree that PA is not trying to mislead authors, I would have to say you're really deluding yourself.

But if you do agree that PA is misleading aspiring authors by stating on their website that their books are widely stocked and sold through brick and mortar stores, then please, discontinue your arguments, because truly, your arguments don't hold. Because then, everyone who wants to warn others about PA have a right to because PA is giving false information and misleading authors to sign on with them.

Yes, perhaps they have their good points, but I believe authors have the right to know about all their bad points before signing the contract with them.

So, yeah, maybe you did know what you were getting into, but because you have a way of pushing your own books, have friends who can edit your book for you, and don't mind the high book price (not to mention that at least PA took your book), you can afford to go with PA. But not many new authors have the resources you have, or the notion of what they're getting into, like you do.

So publish your book/books with PA as you like, but stop insulting or putting down others who are trying to warn new authors about PA.

0]

PS: The last time I told you that they accepted my half-written manuscript, and you just went ha-ha. I maintain that that is not a joke but proof of the poor quality of screening PA has.

[James]

Evil Genius, it is clear that you have read nothing that I have written so I won't waste time other than to write this:

Please go back and read everything I wrote before making false claims about what I've claimed.

Thanks!

James

[James]

I do need to clarify few statements:

"So tell me, does the bookstore u work at and the bookstores you visit stock any books published by PA?"

My bookstore doesn't stock books by Dave, Victoria or Ann either.

"Yes, perhaps they have their good points, but I believe authors have the right to know about all their bad points before signing the contract with them."

I have never disputed this. The dispute is when bad points are clarified, and good points are brought forward.
My problem is when PA authors complain about issues that are in their contract or widely known before they signed. You can't walk into a glass door and then blame the glass maker for your broken nose.

"...and don't mind the high book price..."

$13.95 US is too high for you?

"If you still disagree that PA is not trying to mislead authors, I would have to say you're really deluding yourself."

If aspiring authors who are dissatisfied with PA put half as much energy into researching PA as they do about griping after publication they would not be in the bind they are in. Period.

"So publish your book/books with PA as you like, but stop insulting or putting down others who are trying to warn new authors about PA."

Take a look at the posts again. I'll wait for your apology.

James

[Granny]

["So tell me, does the bookstore u work at and the bookstores you visit stock any books published by PA?"

My bookstore doesn't stock books by Dave, Victoria or Ann either.]

Nice misdirection...of course, Dave, Victoria, and Ann have between them -- what? -- maybe two dozen books. And PA has...how many now? 2500 or so. Are you suggesting every single PA book is in the sci-fi/fantasy genre and therefore would not be carried by your bookstore? How about you tell us how many books your bookstore carries by Xlibris, Dorrance, or 1st Books...then tell us if it carries any by Harper Collins, St. Martin's Press or even a tiny specialty publisher like Writer's Digest Books.

Slight of hand doesn't change reality...it may convince the naive (who apparently you think should be punished for their lack of experience in the business and their tendency to believe what a publisher says) but reality remains the same. PA, like the vanity presses, is not a company whose books will be found in real windows-and-doors bookstores unless the author individually put the books there. If you find a PA book in a bookstore, it is IN SPITE of PA, not because of it.

If you are, as you say, standing at the front of the path trying to give people the truth -- that is an important truth they need...not some song-and-dance misdirection about how your particular bookstore doesn't happen to carry a selection of genre books either.

Gran

[Evil Genius]

Well stated, Granny. You're right on target with James constant redirection of information. If he's so concerned with people receiving the truth, then his redirection of questions is completely in conflict with his stated goal.

By the way, Canada James, I've read just about everything I can that you've posted. I'm not impressed.

[James]

And I've tried so hard to impress the both of you.

James

[marky1]

C. James "strikes out" again at all comers. It is beyond me to understand his position only insofar as he is always contrare to the more experienced posters here at all costs. You woudl think a novice author would be glad to get some real advice instead of defending ignorance. I'll bet he was nonunion actor too. C. James knows it all because he is a clerk. LA is full of this type, by the millions.

[Canada James]

"LA is full of this type, by the millions."

Unfortunately, Marky, the world is full of your type too. By the billions.

"You woudl think a novice author would be glad to get some real advice instead of defending ignorance."

My book costs $13.95 over at PA, Marky. How much was yours?
How much would the others have been had they not been rejected?

Canada James

[marky1]

PA took a self-published $10.95 book and made it into a $19.95 book. Which one would you buy? Hypothetically speaking of course. As for the other two rejected ones, they would have never been given to PA anyway. They were a test. One was already published and the other has since been accepted by a traditional publisher. Next.

[SiverMask]

Hmm James,

“My bookstore doesn't stock books by Dave, Victoria or Ann either.”

Granny is right. Let’s not compare a large, enterprising publisher like PA who has published 2500 books with a few measly authors. I'm talking about how many books do PA stock at your bookstore. Let’s compare publisher vs. publisher. Who is Dave's publisher? Who is Victoria’s and Ann’s publisher? Daw? Baen? I have seen many Daw and Baen books in my local bookstore. How many books of Dave’s, Victoria’s and Ann’s publishers have you seen stocked in your local bookstore?

Now, PA books... that I haven’t seen a single one. Surely, out of 2500 books published, they would have at least 1 book stocked at my local bookstore? Especially since they claim that they stock and sell many books through mortar bookstores! Surely, if their claim is true, then I would at least see 1 book in my bookstore that’s published by them? Surely they can’t be lying? And surely…surely if they’re lying, Dave, Victoria and Ann have the right to tell the others about the lie? And surely, if the lie is indeed a lie, then they are not libeling or defaming PA by warning others of it?

“If aspiring authors who are dissatisfied with PA put half as much energy into researching PA as they do about griping after publication they would not be in the bind they are in. Period.”

Aww. That was mean. Okay anyways, that’s what Victoria, Ann and Dave are doing. They’re trying to make research on PA easier. So now, all those lazy authors can do their research at a click of the mouse. And they wouldn’t gripe so much anymore.

But you still can’t blame those newbie authors for putting their trust in PA. If PA could just stop putting those messages about them selling so many books thru’ brick and mortar stores!! And you blame those guys for entering the lion’s den. See why people should be making more complaints about PA now? Then authors will go in with their eyes open, and no one would gripe about PA, and you would have a publisher with a more solid reputation. Of course, I believe PA don’t want authors to go in with their eyes open. Otherwise, they’ll be losing lots of books to publish. And they need more books to publish if they want their revenue. =)

“I have never disputed this. The dispute is when bad points are clarified, and good points are brought forward. My problem is when PA authors complain about issues that are in their contract or widely known before they signed. You can't walk into a glass door and then blame the glass maker for your broken nose.”

Widely known? What is it that is ‘widely known’? Is it that PA isn’t a true blue traditional publisher as opposed to what they say on their website is widely known? Is it that they don’t publicize for their authors and that their books aren’t really sold in many brick and mortar stores as they claim are widely known? Is it that they don’t do ‘editing’ for authors as other publishers ‘edit’ for their authors is widely known? Is it that they accept any mss that comes their way as opposed to other publishing houses is widely known?

You know what? Maybe you’re right. Those authors deserve being stuck with PA forever. They deserve to have their books jammed with PA, forever unable to sell. WHO ASKED THEM NOT TO DO THEIR RESEARCH!! These facts are after all widely known. I can’t believe their stupidity. *shakes head* Considering how widely known that most traditional publishing houses give more than 2 review copies(even without negotiation) as opposed to PA, and how widely known that most traditional publishing houses bother to doctor edit the books by their authors as opposed to PA who only edit, and how widely known it is that most traditional publishers bother to at least do a bit of publicity for their books as opposed to PA, I can’t imagine why these authors are so STUPID as to not know!! In fact, they deserve it. Geez, these people. STOP GRIPING AND GET ON WITH LIFE!! YOU DESERVE IT FOR NOT DOING YOUR RESEARCH AND NOT KNOWING FACTS THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE WIDELY KNOWN!!

It’s amazing why Dave, Victoria and Ann even bother with these people. Maybe because they’re afraid those widely known facts are not widely known enough. So they’re trying to make it more widely known. And those people who still go into PA without the widely known facts, well *shrug*, THEY DESERVE TO NOT BE ABLE TO SELL THEIR BOOKS!!

So yeah, obviously authors who read the contract and sign it knowing beforehand that you’ll be only getting two copies of your book, you shouldn’t gripe about it after that. After all, you SHOULD know that other traditional publishers give their authors more than 2 review copies. You mean you didn’t know? THEN OBVIOUSLY YOU DESERVE JUST THAT TWO COPIES. WHO ASKED YOU NOT TO DO YOUR RESEARCH??!!!

You mean you didn’t even know that other traditional publishers bother to doctor edit the books as opposed to PA who only edits for grammar and punctuation? THEN OBVIOUSLY YOU DESERVE AN UNEVEN BOOK THAT MUDSKIPPERS WON’T EVEN READ. WHO ASKED YOU NOT TO KNOW THOSE WIDELY KNOWN FACTS??!! JEEPERS.

“The dispute is when bad points are clarified, and good points are brought forward.”

Why is it that bad points are ‘clarified’ but good points are ‘brought forward’? Couldn’t their bad points be really a bad point with nothing to clarify about? Maybe both bad points and good points should just be brought forward.

Okay, so now James, we should talk about the good points of PA. It’s time to go on to their good points, which I believe is what you are trying to make widely known. Yeah?

1)Firstly, all the points in their contract is negotiable (meaning you can make their contract a decent one). But first, the authors have to know that in the first place they’re not getting too great a deal. And those who didn’t know that the initial contract offered by PA is a poor one in contrast to that by other traditional publishers, well, obviously they deserve a poor contract. WHO ASKED THEM NOT KNOW WIDELY KNOWN FACTS??!!!!

2)Secondly, they offer great deals on their own books every few months!! How delightful. Now, just let me get more of my own books so I can stock them in every place of my house, so guests just can’t not notice I wrote a book!

3)Thirdly, the people are a joy to work with. (attested by James, so i shall believe it PS: No sarcasm here.)

4)I can get my book published even if the mudskippers think it too uneven to read.

5)James, you fill this in.

Apart from point no. 3 (no. 4, too, maybe), it seems as though PA has no other good qualities. And I'm talking about good qualities in comparison with other similar traditional publishers. Because that's what PA claims to be, ain't it? A traditional publisher. So we shall only comapre them with other traditional houses.

And James, if you can think up of any more good points PA have as opposed to other traditional publishing houses, please inform everyone about it. We all want and need to know the good points of PA to measure them with the bad points.

“Take a look at the posts again. I'll wait for your apology.”

I read through Dave’s very initial statement (before he had this cranky debate with you) on his website P&E, and found that there was no putdown about PA as you keep going on about, except for a warning that PA has a poor contract, and was thus not recommended. If it weren’t for me finding Dave’s site, I would have gone with PA. I had no idea that their contract was poor. I was a newbie author, eager to publish my book. And PA sounded like a dream. There were so many success stories about authors seeming to have sold thousands and thousands of books (at least it seemed that way to me) and about how PA have published so many books (good record) and how PA sells their books in mortar and brick stores!! A dream come through. I really wanted to walk into a bookstore and see my book on display. Going through their entire website, I decided to post my mss to them.

I wanted to be a PA author.

And then, excited after posting my mss to them, I wanted to search up on the books they sell, and I typed in PA into the search engine, and to my horror found many bad reports on PA.

Fortunately, being the distrusting person I am, I only sent half of my mss to the publisher (thinking that if the publisher likes it, they’ll ask for the full script. Apparently they didn't need the full script, or rather, they hadn't noticed i hadn't given them the full script, because they replied with a proposal contract). So really, I have a lot to thank to people like Dave and Victoria. I see no reason why I should be apologizing to you, because you are putting them down, saying that they have ‘reasons’ in warning others about PA. Truthfully, I think it’s just their pure heart and intentions, and for that I salute them.

I wrote this the last time: “ The last time I told you that they accepted my half-written manuscript, and you just went ha-ha. I maintain that that is not a joke but proof of the poor quality of screening PA has.”

You never bothered to reply to this claim as usual. Tell me, if PA is really not as lax as they are in taking mss as you so seem to preach, then why would they accept a half-written mss? Or do you actually admit that they are indeed very lax in their acquirement of manuscripts? I realize how careful you have to be in answering this. Because if you say YES, you know they are lax, and have poor quality control, you are immediately admitting that PA is no traditional publisher as they preach (and as you seem to preach). And as the domino effect goes…if they lied about being a traditional publisher, then yeah, maybe they lied about selling their books thru’ mortar stores, and who knows what other lies they have made? So yes, if you don’t answer this question again, I’ll understand. As would the other readers, I believe.

…Of course you can just discredit me by saying I’m lying that they accepted my half-written mss. Hmm…

Maybe it’s time you admit it James. I’m sure you know that PA is not recommended for most authors, and authors should only go into contract with PA with very careful treads. Say it aloud. Tell others that it was for u because it fitted your plans, but for most people it won’t be suitable. Admit that the people who speak against PA are right about their accusations. Admit that most newbie authors aren’t and won’t be wary about the poor contract PA offers until someone tells them it’s poor. And believe it or not, I have nothing against you, but that against the publisher. As such, I do wish you well, and hope you won’t be just one of the statistics in failing to make your book a success within PA.

PS: And obviously no one wants to see you publish with PA again, but that’s only because we wish you well!! As you can judge, by how strongly against PA we speak.

SiverMask

[Canada James]

Most of what you wrote I'm going to ignore. Consider it a kinder, gentler James.

"Especially since they claim that they stock and sell many books through mortar bookstores!"

They don't claim that. They claim that the books they sell *retail* they sell through mortar bookstores. This is why I got into these debates; statements against PA are worded as craftily as those for PA.

"Okay anyways, that’s what Victoria, Ann and Dave are doing."

I'll admit that's what Victoria and Ann are doing, but that isn't what Dave is doing. Take a look at his "warning" on P&E and you tell me if it's against PA or a shot at the authors. Dave lost sight of what he started out to do long ago.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that authors need to go in knowing what they are getting into. But those that gripe because of things like their book being priced at $19.95 don't get my sympathy, they KNEW that when they signed the contract.

What sites like P&E should have is a warning that PA does not allow returns, and that getting books into bookstores is left up to the author. Would you like to know what I do when asked by writers if they should choose PA? I don't mention the contract at all. I suggest they visit three indie bookstores in their local area and ask if they would stock their book. I suggest to them that if their plan is to buy their books themselves that they do a cost analysis of what it would be if they even just did 5 bookstores at 5 books a store. And then... I leave the decision up to them. Some of them I later see on the PA message board (some indie bookstores say yes), others I never hear from again.

There are some who will sign with PA regardless of what anyone says. They will ignore the warnings about PA because they want to see their book in print so badly that they turn a blind eye to the negative aspects of that particular house. Or because they see the negatives and know a way around them.

I tend to have an effect on people questioning PA because I don't tell them what to do (I went with PA because I saw an opportunity - someone else might see one also). I'm not going to write on this board that PA is the devil incarnate and should be stopped at all cost, because I feel that they have a place *so long as writers understand what they will and will not get*. Who are you to say what my particular situation is and what I should be doing with the book that *I* wrote? How dare you and Granny!

For some reason, Silver Mask, we live in a society that believes they can do whatever they want and NOT be held accountable. I also believe that this is why people are starting to hate God; Christianity demands accountability to something higher than oneself. If you choose the wrong path it IS your fault, and you don't have anyone to blame but yourself. Harsh? Maybe. But I do believe we would all be better off if people stopped asking to be coddled and started taking some responsibility.

As for your other questions I'll pick and choose what I want to answer. I owe you nothing, Mr. Mask. Nor do I owe Granny anything.

You, after all, still have not told me if you feel $13.95 is too high for a PA book.

Canada James

[Canada James]

"PA took a self-published $10.95 book and made it into a $19.95 book. Which one would you buy?"

You knew the prices of their books when you signed on. What were you thinking?

"As for the other two rejected ones, they would have never been given to PA anyway. They were a test."

You've said this more than once and I don't understand. Do you mean they are so bad that you tested PA to see if they'd reject them (thus proving they accept anything), or you feel they are truly exceptional and wanted to see if PA was too blind to see it?

"One was already published and the other has since been accepted by a traditional publisher."

Congratulations Marky! Who is your publisher and what are the book titles? What genre, and how are they selling?

Canada James

[SiverMask]

"Especially since they claim that they stock and sell many books through mortar bookstores!"

They don't claim that. They claim that the books they sell *retail* they sell through mortar bookstores. This is why I got into these debates; statements against PA are worded as craftily as those for PA."

Then how do they sell their books if they don’t sell them retail? And retail means, “The sale of goods or commodities in small quantities directly to consumers.”

By the way, I wasn’t trying to word my words craftily when I said they claim to sell many books through mortar bookstores. It’s just that I had no idea that books could be sold in other ways other than retail. I assumed that publishers sell their books *retail*.

You also stated above that because people who oppose PA phrase their words AS CRAFTILY as PA, so you go into these debates. Is that what you are saying? I don’t want to mistake you. But if that is the case, then you are admitting that PA is crafty. Why do you even stand up for them then? Their being crafty has misguided many aspiring authors already.

“I wholeheartedly agree with you that authors need to go in knowing what they are getting into. But those that gripe because of things like their book being priced at $19.95 don't get my sympathy, they KNEW that when they signed the contract.”

Thanks for agreeing with me on this point. But as PA word every statement on their website so craftily, it gets very difficult for new authors who do not know contractual terms well to get misguided about what they’re signing up for.

But it’s true that those who had signed the contract should have known beforehand that their book pricing is high, thus shouldn’t gripe. But you should also realize that a new author might not know about the many other small contractual details. Like signing away all rights for 7 years is a long time to bind your book to one publisher. And the fact that most upright publishers would not make such demands. They are excited at having completed their book, and are exhilarated at looking up the website of what seems to be a legit publisher. It’s also natural for them not to be thinking clearly at such a time. And for PA to word their words so craftily knowing all this, makes PA unscrupulous.

But I do agree that considering most writers are book readers, they should already know that their book is priced higher than most other books. Perhaps this is where their knowledge of the reputation of PA could help them to decide on whether or not to sign that contract.

“Take a look at his "warning" on P&E and you tell me if it's against PA or a shot at the authors. Dave lost sight of what he started out to do long ago. “

Perhaps he did. But the site does at least still warn others to be more cautious about PA’s contract, which they should be.

“What sites like P&E should have is a warning that PA does not allow returns, and that getting books into bookstores is left up to the author. Would you like to know what I do when asked by writers if they should choose PA? I don't mention the contract at all. I suggest they visit three indie bookstores in their local area and ask if they would stock their book. I suggest to them that if their plan is to buy their books themselves that they do a cost analysis of what it would be if they even just did 5 bookstores at 5 books a store. And then... I leave the decision up to them. Some of them I later see on the PA message board (some indie bookstores say yes), others I never hear from again.”

Although you say you don’t bother to mention the contract, but I feel that the contract is important. It’s binds your hard work, which may take some years to produce, to the publisher. Considering that PA gets most of the profits, shouldn’t they take up responsibility in the marketing?

Unsurprisingly, you have yet again chosen not to answer the questions where you know you cannot fight for PA, because otherwise you’ll be lying.

I had not answer whether US$13.95 is a reasonable price, because I do not know the number of pages of your book or if it’s in soft or hard cover. Nevertheless, you did negotiate its price down from US$19.95. And a reasonable publisher would never have even quoted that as its initial price in the first place.

SiverMask

[marky1]

Your accusing my rejected books at PA of being sub-par, which is an insult, but then, that is your forte. There are very few nonfiction books at PA. Unlike in fiction there can be repercussions and work for the publisher; fact checking, libel laws, and so on.

PA won't take any reponsibility for their books so this a good reason to reject these two projects. The last had over 300 endnotes, and as many traditional publishers and universities have told me, a specialized audience: Market reasons. But you are so green and quick to insult all comers that you wouldn't have considered such things. My work can be found by Googling "Mark A. York." It's quite extensive actually.

[marky1]

"For some reason, Silver Mask, we live in a society that believes they can do whatever they want and NOT be held accountable. I also believe that this is why people are starting to hate God; Christianity demands accountability to something higher than oneself. If you choose the wrong path it IS your fault, and you don't have anyone to blame but yourself. Harsh? Maybe. But I do believe we would all be better off if people stopped asking to be coddled and started taking some responsibility."

As one who has just written a great deal on the history of the Puritans, I am almost gleeful to see this texbook logic still around. It's the same classic wrong-headed piety that failed in Massachusetts, but in many ways remains. It is doubtful this type of jeremiad will win you spot as one of the "elect."

[marky1]

Well, pilgrim here's what Amazon says about your price:

"Upon the Shoulders of Vengeance
by James McCann

List Price: $19.95
Price: $19.95 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. See details.
Availability: This item has not yet been released. You may order it now and we will ship it to you when it arrives.

Edition: Paperback"

Gee, that's identical to my PA book. They must not have received the memo from corporate.

[marky1]

Same price at BN. Since you have an ISBN it would be helpful if you added the online content; a bio, sample chapter etc. PA won't do it other than a short blurb.

www.amazon.com/exec/obido...54-5325463 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/subst/catalog-updates/content-books.html/103-9394554-5325463)

BN has one too and they are very responsive.

[Canada James]

Hey, I contributed one of my posts to you ... sorry about that.

Marky:

Sheesh man! I will let PA know that they will have to fix the price on B&N and Amazon. Thanks for the heads up. They do have the correct price on their end.

As for my "insult to your work" I was asking for clarification of your "test". I was not demeaning your work.

As for the rest of your drivel:

1... 2... 3... 4... 5... 6... 7... 8... 9... 10...

Canada James

[marky1]

Drivel? History.

[Canada James]

"Drivel? History."

Whatever Marky.

Keep poking me, I'll just keep counting to ten.

Canada James

[Canada James]

'Then how do they sell their books if they don’t sell them retail? And retail means, “The sale of goods or commodities in small quantities directly to consumers.”'

Retail= retail stores, as in not online or direct through their website.

"You also stated above that because people who oppose PA phrase their words AS CRAFTILY as PA, so you go into these debates. Is that what you are saying? I don’t want to mistake you. But if that is the case, then you are admitting that PA is crafty."

They are no different than any other business out there. Do you really think that drinking beer will make you more attractive to women, or that smoking will improve your fishing? Yet when you see ads making these claims you know better. Some don't and take up alcohol and smoking anyway, and when it hurts their health they blame the companies.

Why do I stand up for PA? Because I don't think they are the devil incarnate. I believe they have a place in the industry and that it isn't up to you to decide that for me.

"But it’s true that those who had signed the contract should have known beforehand that their book pricing is high, thus shouldn’t gripe. But you should also realize that a new author might not know about the many other small contractual details."

So put up something to educate them. P&E does not do that. Writer Beware, when I checked them out, does. How do you think I knew what to ask for when I signed my contract?

"Although you say you don’t bother to mention the contract, but I feel that the contract is important. It’s binds your hard work, which may take some years to produce, to the publisher. Considering that PA gets most of the profits, shouldn’t they take up responsibility in the marketing?"

Depends what you mean by marketing. Most new authors at the big houses don't get much more than a mention in the catalogue, reader copies (that bookstores ignore and recycle) and a notice sent out to interested media. What do I think should be mentioned on these warnings? A definition of what to expect with editing (and why) as well as a definition of BASIC marketing and why it is important.

Claiming that new authors should expect big window displays and a free lunch at their book launch set up by the publisher is not realistic. Maybe some authors do get that, but most that I see don't.

"And a reasonable publisher would never have even quoted that as its initial price in the first place."

I could quote you lots of books that prove you wrong, but I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

Again, Silver Mask, your dislike of PA is clouding your judgement of me. You are approaching me with the assumption that I have the same things to say as all the other PA authors with whom you've spoken, and you have chosen to stay on the offencive.

I know you are waiting for me to admit that I've been wrong all along and to come crying on your shoulder that please oh please I need help but guess what? That day isn't coming. You are wasting your time trying to educate me based on the claim that PA tried to "buy" your unfinished work or that authors shouldn't have to read their contracts when they sign with a publisher because, well gee, that publisher should just automatically want what's best for the author.

Canada James

[James D Macdonald]

Claiming that new authors should expect big window displays and a free lunch at their book launch set up by the publisher is not realistic. Maybe some authors do get that, but most that I see don't.

You know, young Canada, I'm beginning to wonder who exactly made this claim, and where and when they made it. I know it wasn't me.

I've been doing my best to inform and enlighten you; in the same way I'll be happy to explain the facts of publishing to any PA (or potential PA, or any other) author who comes by. I consider it my duty.

They are no different than any other business out there. Do you really think that drinking beer will make you more attractive to women, or that smoking will improve your fishing? Yet when you see ads making these claims you know better. Some don't and take up alcohol and smoking anyway, and when it hurts their health they blame the companies.

You are aware that there are a goodly number of people who feel it's their duty to inform folks who might otherwise be fooled that smoking tobacco and drinking alcohol aren't healthful activities, eh? I'm sure you're also aware that (at least here in the States) that both beer and cigarettes are required to carry Government health warnings right on the packages? And that the tobacco companies have been found liable in courts of law for the damage they did to people who did believe their advertising?

==========

Yo momma is so ugly, yo daddy takes her to work with him just so he won't have to kiss her goodbye.

[Granny]

James,

When did I ever act like I cared what you do with your book? If I ever acted like I had the slightest interest in what YOU personally do with YOUR book -- you have my profound apology because I do not.

I do care what others do with their books. I want them to take the book they worked so hard on (and even folks who churned out a book in a month or so as some PA authors have claimed must have worked hard in that month to get that many words down on paper) and do whatever they do with it from an informed stance. I want publishers whose primary focus is to lure in writers (rather than to sell books) to do so honestly.

PA could be very honest about what they are and they would STILL get a flood of new authors. The author tide is enormous. PA doesn't misdirect, and double talk because they MUST do ut -- quite frankly, I don't know why they do it. Sure, being honest would have lost some authors but most of those authors are unhappy anyway so PA would be better off without them.

Of course, some of those unhappy authors have decided they care enough about their books that although they hate what happened to them, they still love their book. So they knuckle down and promote. Some of the Mille Club is made up of very unhappy PA authors. And since those unhappy authors have made PA a lot of money (in comparison to their usual per author income)...I guess PA feels it is still worth playing bait and switch.

My disgust is not with PA authors (except those few who are going around telling new authors NOT TO LISTEN to anyone who tries to tell them the truth.) but with the strategies of PA itself. The authors themselves have sometimes gone to Herculean efforts to sell books -- traditional publishers would LOVE to give every one of their authors an injection of that "never say die" spirit as it would boost sales hugely. Unfortunately, even with those kinds of efforts -- PA's best-selling authors end up in an exclusive club by selling 1000 books which shows that most of these Herculian efforts are going unrewarded.

Quite frankly, that is enough to make me cry.

But as to YOUR book -- as you said, you knew what you were getting into so I must assume you made the best decision available to you. I know some of the other PA authors may have made the best decision available to them. I would simply like that to be the case for ALL PA authors.

Gran

[marky1]

Again, on track Gran. The only reason I gave an already untraditionally published book to PA in the first place is that I believed their claims. They solicited the book.

Make no mistake about it: the POD book of the same title, as opposed to, I don't know what to call them, quasi-POD? earns royalties of 20% compared to 8% at PA. And the sales were higher, technically. Why would I want to work for PA? For a dollar a copy? Since they don't do anything in the claim to promote, and stock the books, what you get is a high price with the lowest author returns imaginable.

They will get huge numbers of clients, and I told them this point blank, because the competition of other vanity POD's have jacked prices to the sky, and all of the traditionally provided services are sold ala carte. The lack grandsiose bookstore displays and galas few get anywhere, spread thin as evidence in favor of PA's gross exaggerations is ludicrous. But then we're arguing with a bookstore superstar in his own mind.

"Facts are stubborn things," it has been said, and Canada J. doesn't have any, or recognize those who do. He insults the intelligence of those older and more experienced even if they have walked the same path recently. We'll see how his presentation improves, so far it's been sadly lacking.

[SiverMask]

Ah, no, no. You mistake me James. I am not against you. But I believe I now understand your stand, which is basically even though PA has misguided many, it has a role in publishing for the unpublished. Can't say I disagree with you on that.

But in some other ways, your stand can also take the, "Although PA has been crafty and caused unhappiness to others, I'm still on their side." Just because they have a role in publishing?

It's not that I have a problem with them having a role in publishing, but that I don't like the way they misrepresent themselves, causing authors anguish. If they just come right up and say "We'll publish your books for nothing, but we don't market your books so it's up to you to do your marketing and selling,"...ah, then I would say they really have a role in publishing.

In fact, if I could market well, I wouldn't mind opting for PA. But many writers ain't the marketing or networking type, and may thus end up in a rut after signing up with PA.

One should have a clear conscience in whatever one does. Opening a business doesn’t excuse one from this. Painting a picture/ Intentionally misguiding clients that you provide services that you never intend to deliver is called cheating.

This is my last say. As a Christian myself, I wish you all the best, sister to brother.

God Bless
SiverMask

[Granny]

James says he negotiated his book price down to $14, and I expect he did. Of course, PA has told other authors that their books would be sold at a lower rate and it ended up much higher for anyone ordering anywhere besides PA directly -- so, he may need to wait and see how it plays out.

When PA has negotiated for a lower price (and followed through) it has been for those authors who
(1) have extremely short books -- page count affects price and PA is quicker to negotiate a short book than a longer one.
or
(2) people who have made a public presence as a PA promoter -- promoting not just their book but the company.

I don't know if the first is true of James' book, but the second is certainly true of James. PA has clearly made a policy of rewarding those who will promote the company across the Internet. This being true, James might want to be careful not to be too nice to Victoria before his book actually becomes available on all Internet booksellers.

Gran

[marky1]

Gran,

I have no doubt he negotiated a lower price on the PA web-store. Theirs is a tier system from what I can see. James' book is 200 pp., some are less, some more. I've seen 105 pp. at his claimed price, but not elsewhere as you noted. Mine, at a scant 144 pp. is $16.95 at PA and $19.95 elsewhere. I've seen $14.95 as well.

This is good if one buys their own books as planned. Longer books would be non-negotiable, and one reason why my longer history book with all the endnotes and the genealogical addendum was rejected. As I've said I was only testing their limits and scope. James will be disappointed.

[marky1]

Here's another one from the most outspoken PA apologist.

The Joe Schmoe Show
by H. B. Marcus

List Price: $19.95
Price: $19.95 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. See details.
Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours

Edition: Paperback

Paperback: 164 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.45 x 8.34 x 5.06
Publisher: Publishamerica; (October 2003)
ISBN: 1413702872

Same price as mine and C. James. This author's previous PA work is out of stock at Amazon. Also, he provides no content to speak of.

[marky1]

Since C. James turned these reader reviews on others as evidence of something, consider these reviews of the above author's first PA book. All are regulars at the PA MB. Note that there is no description of the book. What the hell is it about? And of course, consider the price.

search.barnesandnoble.com...0546&itm=1 (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=34MKF0NS5E&isbn=1591290546&itm=1)

[marky1]

These are really shocking. Amazon charges $29.95 for the PA book: Identical vanity iUniverse BN-affiliated book $15, $10.95 US. I don't see how a PA book will fly from an economic perspective with these numbers. Both are produced in exactly the same way.

[HapiSofi]

I went and looked at C. James' first PA-published novel on the Barnes & Noble website. There are four reviews. Each gives it five stars, which is not terribly likely for a book that couldn't get published via normal means. And they all read like bad cover copy -- that is, a mess of generalized superlatives about what a swell book this is and how brilliantly talented the writer is. That's not how readers talk when they've just finished a book they've sincerely enjoyed. It is, however, the overwhelmingly common style you find in online reviews that award five stars to unknown first-time writers.

Then I looked up the reviewers: Joyce Scarborough, Douglas Boren, Jay Squires, and Fred Dungan. I couldn't find anything on Joyce Scarborough, so I'll have to take your word for it that she's a regular on the PA message board.

Douglas Boren, is the author of "Beyond the Horizons," a book published just a few months ago by America House Book Publishers. Boren's own book has gotten one review, five stars, from Jay Squires.

Jay Squires, is the author of "The Dead of Winter," a book published just a few months ago by America House Book Publishers. It hasn't gotten any reviews yet on B&N.

Fred Dungan is the author of "Bushwhacked", a book published in the spring of last year by America House Book Publishers. It has two reviews, both of which give it five stars. One of those reviews is by Fred Dungan, who must have gotten confused. The other is by L.A. Johnson. For a while, all I could find out was that L.A. Johnson was referred to as a published author, and that he-or-she reviews a lot of America House books -- which was odd, because normally mainstream reviewers won't go near them. But eventually I discovered that L.A. Johnson is Laurel Johnson, author of "Grass Dance," which came out from PublishAmerica in November 2001, and "The Alley of Wishes," which in November of 2002 came out from 1stBooks Publisher.

Onward. I went to Amazon.

The overall rating "Crispy" currently has on Amazon is four and a half stars, based on nine reviews. That's because one reviewer, "A reader from North Carolina," only gave it three stars. He or she said it was funny, but added that they "... found the writing itself a bit juvenile, lacking in any literary merit."

The reader from North Carolina was the fourth reviewer. The first three reviewers were Joyce Scarborough, Doug Boren, and Jay Squires. They sounded like bad cover copy again, and of course they gave the book five stars. I'll get back to them in a moment.

"Crispy" was also reviewed on Amazon by Lynn Barry, author of "Puddles" and "Bjoyful", both from Publish America. It was reviewed by Jerry Mohrlang, author of "Sarawak," from PublishAmerica. And it was reviewed by Willem Meiners, author of "Those Who Win Are Those Who Think They Can" and "More Montignac Menus," both from Erica House (which is the same outfit as PublishAmerica and America House), and a book that's out this very month, "Lattu Daginn I Dag Skipta Mal," from Publish America.

Now listen carefully. On Amazon, Jay Squires got reviewed by Doug Boren, Lynn Barry, and Victoria Taylor Murray. Ms. Murray turns out to be the author of *four* romance novels, all published by PublishAmerica, three out of four of which were reviewed by L.A. Johnson. Fred Dungan was reviewed by L.A. Johnson. Jerry Mohrlang was reviewed by Lynn Barry and L.A. Johnson. Lynn Barry's two novels were both reviewed by L.A. Johnson, and also by Henry Custer, author of "Concept of Justice," which was published by PublishAmerica and reviewed by Jay Squires. Willem Meiners' "Those Who Win Are Those Who Think They Can" was reviewed by one "Brad Barry" author of "Puddles" and "Bjoyful," so we must assume that that's Lynn Barry. L.A. Johnson's "Grass Dance" was reviewed by Victoria Taylor Murray; also by Nancy Mehl, author of "Graven Images," published by … oh, never mind, I'm sick of typing it out. Bleah! Each and every one of them a five-star review!

I'm sorry there isn't a more polite term for it, but this is a circle jerk. I could have gone on stringing together connections, but I've reached my limit. Enough is enough. I've looked at too many pages of vapidly overenthusiastic five-star reviews of PublishAmerica books, written by people who all turn out to be PublishAmerica authors whose own books get vapidly overenthusiastic five-star reviews from PublishAmerica authors.

Bleah!

Marky, you owe me one. You should warn me next time.

[marky1]

Well, that's nice work, but you could have stopped sooner. All PA authors buy and review each others books. I don't think C. James has any reviews at tleast I didn't see any at Amazon. You get the idea. This is a cult-of-amateurs. I think this evidence has to be weighed into any claim of legitimacy of PA by anyone for any reason.

All of the above are everyday posters at PA. They all bitched at me over there, including C. James who invited me to leave the boards for engaging their thought process over there. I only lasted a day before PA banned me. It's Quite a crowd.

[James D Macdonald]

Where did you find reviews of Canada James' book? I didn't see any, and since it's not due out 'til November it's not likely that there are any yet.

He has an earlier book, Wulfsign, but that doesn't have any reviews at BN. It has one review, by"A reader" from Winnipeg, at Amazon. Five stars.

The book was self-published. Two used copies are available at Amazon.com: One for $35.76, the other for $198.36 (wow!).

According to his web page, there was another book, Kith, also privately printed.

The prologue of Upon the Shoulders of Vengeance has some nice images. I'd be interested in seeing where he goes with it.

==========

Yo momma's so dumb, she thinks 'yo momma' jokes are funny.

[marky1]

Yeah, I saw no reviews of it anywhere. I stand by my statement on what I thought it was about. It seems from the description to be a take off on the Christian end of days, scene. I didn't realize it had armageddon in the title. Isn't that what it is? I can't comment on the writing, I couldn't read it. He should be grateful for your gracious offer James Md. So far on comment.

[marky1]

A clip with both owner and author. Apparently Marcus was rejected once for the same book. This thing is like the gift that just keeps giving.

www.publishamerica.com/press/gill.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/press/gill.htm)

[SiverMask]

Haven't seen James around these few days. Especially after his book hit Amazon and B&N at the atrocious pricing of US$19.95. Hope he was able to fix it, and it's not PA scheming once again.

[marky1]

He won't. This is standard procedure at PA. There is no chance, or an instance where anyone has ever done what he claims to have done on price.

[James D Macdonald]

He had a bad cold and was on meds. Maybe he's worse (hope not!) or maybe he's gone back to work and has to catch up.

Canada James: When you get back... what's your opinion on Amelia Atwater-Rhodes' books?

[Victoria]

>>This being true, James might want to be careful not to be too nice to Victoria before his book actually becomes available on all Internet booksellers.<<

Tee hee! I think PA probably has my picture somewhere in its office and is using it for a dartboard. Every time they go by it, they make the sign against the evil eye.

Lest someone think my glee is unseemly, it's a lot more dignified than the crap that has been slung at me. In the memorable words of someone connected with PA who I will not name here, Ann and I are whores with fake boobs and false teeth (well, I do have a number of crowns, and I think Ann has a bridge. But our boobs are unenhanced). Oh, and then there was the plagiarism rumor, where I was supposed to have copied one of my books verbatim from an obscure German novel, and ripped off all of Joseph Campbell's archetypes to boot. This was played out in several lengthy threads on the PA message board, with numerous PA authors leaping in to gloat about my feet of clay. Eventually it dawned on someone that many of the posts were actionable, and the threads were yanked. It was an interesting experience.

PA does take note of its critics.

- Victoria
Writer Beware
www.sfwa.org/beware/ (http://www.sfwa.org/beware/)

[marky1]

They took notice of me.

"Normally we don't even respond to occasional preposterous bits of comedy that may show up on the web. The organization to which you are apparently
referring with your "bad press" comment has long ago lost credibility, and it would appear that they are rarely taken seriously. We've seen their antics mocked many many times."

This quote was from an e-mail where I regretted bcoming involved with their crooked operation. I'm assuming they were referring to Writer Beware.

[Victoria]

Yup, that was me and Ann they were talking about, false teeth and all.

- Victoria
Writer Beware
www.sfwa.org/beware/ (http://www.sfwa.org/beware/)

[Canada James]

"I am not against you. But I believe I now understand your stand, which is basically even though PA has misguided many, it has a role in publishing for the unpublished."

My stand has been the same from the beginning: so long as the author knows all the facts and understands what he/she is getting/not getting, PA has a part to play in the publishing world.

""We'll publish your books for nothing, but we don't market your books so it's up to you to do your marketing and selling,"..."

That's what I don't get. When I researched PA I knew that. There was nothing hidden, and they even came out and directly told me when I questioned them if I was right.

"Painting a picture/ Intentionally misguiding clients that you provide services that you never intend to deliver is called cheating."

Actually it's called "advertising," and unfortunately, our countries are built on it.

"James says he negotiated his book price down to $14, and I expect he did. Of course, PA has told other authors that their books would be sold at a lower rate and it ended up much higher for anyone ordering anywhere besides PA directly -- so, he may need to wait and see how it plays out."

Unfortunately, no publisher can control what a bookstore decides to charge.

"This being true, James might want to be careful not to be too nice to Victoria before his book actually becomes available on all Internet booksellers."

Sorry Victoria, looks like we have to go back to the old ways. ;)

James M.: no, it wasn't you who claimed that all new authors get free lunches and co-op displays.


And these reviews of my book, could someone please give me a link? I went to B&N and saw nothing.

Canada James

[marky1]

In reverse order: There are no reviews of your book. Breathe. I too was told that the claims were not true after I confronted PA with it; and only then. Who will stock my book in stores? PA answer? Not us. This came late in the game not up front.

I take offense to the fact that you think the U.S. and Canada were founded on principles of false advertising. Or is all advertising false? or just inflated? Gee where have I seen that lately?

As a descendant of one of America's founding shipbuilding families I don't believe we said we could build ships for sale when we couldn't. Or told the customer when they showed up "Here's a wagon, we don't have anything that will float." --Tough to get to the West Indies on that. Your relativism doesn't float either. The fact is PA has no control over the chain stores on price, placement or anything else just like the other PODs. That's not what they claim to have. I don't know what one can call that but a lie.

[Granny]

Well, publishers *can* make some difference in what a bookstore will charge by offering discounts to allow the bookstore to stock the book without pricing it over the suggested retail. By charging everyone OTHER than those who buy books specifically at the PA website as though your book retails for $20 -- then, they are pretty much assuring that no one is going to be selling it for $14 (US or Canadian?) and your contract negotiations didn't get you overly far with the buying public. And shipping seems to be a bit variable on PA, as well, so I hope you covered that in your contract. One woman paid $8 to have a PA book sent to her home (which was in the US -- and not even in Alaska or Hawaii). Now imagine if PA sells your book for $14 and tacks $8 shipping on it -- then did your contract negotiations really get you anywhere with the buying public?

It's nice to say, my trade paperback costs $14, which is totally in line with trade paperbacks...only, well, you can't actually buy it anywhere for $14 except for the PA website...and well...they are going to tack a really high shipping on it...but...I negotiated...really.

I hope that for you this really does turn out to be a good thing -- honestly, I do. But, if it does, do understand you dodged the bullet. Don't lord it over those who didn't manage to dodge quickly enough. PA authors complain that the evil published writers empire doesn't give them any respect, then they turn around and savage their own collegues when problems arise. If you want people to respect you as a writer -- then, at least, show the same respect for those in your same boat. If you are promised a safe boat ride and it turns out your boat has a leak, it's a bad boat -- it doesn't make the passengers bad if their feet get wet.

Gran

[marky1]

Nice job Gran. Thanks for keeping the nautical theme...well you know.

[Canada James]

Silvermask:

"Especially after his book hit Amazon and B&N at the atrocious pricing of US$19.95. Hope he was able to fix it, and it's not PA scheming once again."

PA and I had a very polite and professional exchange of emails on the subject. I'm actually certain that they have a form letter they mail out and the price wasn't changed on my particular letter. I have emailed them about it, and they have assured me that it will be corrected. I will check the online stores mid-October to see that it has been done.
If not, I'll worry about it then.

James M.
"He had a bad cold and was on meds. Maybe he's worse (hope not!) or maybe he's gone back to work and has to catch up."

I've been keeping busy with (gasp) writing :) during my little holiday. I've also been sending out faxes regarding the release of my book, and trying to secure some reviews.

And as for the author you mentioned, can't say I've had a chance to read her. I will say that I've had queries about her, maybe it's time to take her work home for an evening...

Canada James

[marky1]

At the risk of beating a dead horse, so far I've yet to find any PA book not sold for at least the magic number, ($19.95) hence the form letter C. Ja mentions. It's no mistake, just SOP. I did find one of their front page books for $10, but it was only 47 pp. The only review said "Please get this thing out of my house." It's free.

[SiverMask]

LOL. That was funny, marky.

But seriously, if no one has ever gotten their book lowered to below 19.95 before, then if Jame's book is priced below that, it'll be a breakthrough.

[Evil Genius]

And if Canada James' book doesn't go below that magic number, then it means his negotiations were wasted efforts.

[marky1]

I think I've provided a complete record of just how little pull PA has with BN and Amazon. It won't happen. They're just shining the boy on, and he's just puffed up enough to believe his abilites have influence over the matter. It's just so much whistling in the wind.

[marky1]

I just checked prices and all PA books so far are at the aforementioned price everywhere; well, higher at others. Books-a-Million declares for all the world to see that PA books are print-on-demand and may take five weeks to deliver. That's a nice touch.

[Canada James]

"And if Canada James' book doesn't go below that magic number, then it means his negotiations were wasted efforts."

I believe the phrase will be "breach of contract." I do have it all in writing, including how long to expect before I see the price change at the online stores.

"I think I've provided a complete record of just how little pull PA has with BN and Amazon. It won't happen. They're just shining the boy on, and he's just puffed up enough to believe his abilites have influence over the matter. It's just so much whistling in the wind."

I have no doubt, Marky, that you are just upset that I've done what you could not do.
As for "pull" with BN and amazon, keep in mind that no publisher has the right to dictate a book price to any bookstore. Period.

"Books-a-Million declares for all the world to see that PA books are print-on-demand and may take five weeks to deliver. That's a nice touch."

All publishers take 3-4 weeks to deliver, regardless of the technology they use. UTP takes 6 weeks or LONGER. As a world famous biologist and puritan expert, I'm surprised you didn't do more research into the book world before shooting your mouth off.


As I said before. I'll give PA the chance to fix the error before I go all crazy on them. So far that's the difference between why they've dealt fairly with me while banning the likes of Marky from their website.

James

[Canada James]

"Books-a-Million declares for all the world to see that PA books are print-on-demand and may take five weeks to deliver. That's a nice touch."

Marky, this is what mine says:

Upon the Shoulders of Vengeance
(Paperback)
by James McCann
In Stock: Ships within 2-3 days.

I did notice at work when I checked Ingram that they do show my book in stock. Ingram is one of those distributors that moves their stock weekly, whereas direct from ANY publisher will take AT LEAST 3 weeks.

James

James

[Evil Genius]

So, how long does it state in your correspondence before the price change will appear?

If that doesn't happen, how long do you intend to give them before you go "all crazy" on them?

By the way, what percentage of crazy are you now? ;)

[marky1]

"All publishers take 3-4 weeks to deliver, regardless of the technology they use. UTP takes 6 weeks or LONGER. As a world famous biologist and puritan expert, I'm surprised you didn't do more research into the book world before shooting your mouth off."

I hate this sort of quoting, but I'll use it this time. C. James in a nutshell, you're a young punk jerk amateur who won't admit he's been scammed, but that's obvious to all but you. It's the "POD" declaration that's the key point in the advertisement since PA claims they are in no way a POD. No book has been listed below $19.95 from PA. Yours will be no different.

My books are listed as delivered in 2-3 days at the major bookstores. That's not 6 weeks Mr. clerk expert. Do you want fries with that? Oh wait there's two feet in there already.

[marky1]

Upon the Shoulders of Vengeance
(Paperback)
by James McCann Retail Price: $19.95
ISBN: 1592866816
Date: November 2003

Merchant Price Discount

$19.95 0%

BMM $17.96* 10%
*Millionaire's Club Price ( 10% Discount with $10 annual fee )

$18.95* 5%
*Readers' Advantage Price ( 5% Discount with $25 annual fee )

$19.95 0%

Prices at all the major chains. Amazon, Borders, etc..

[marky1]

Alaska Tales
(Paperback)
by Mark A. York Retail Price: $19.95
ISBN: 1592863965
Date: February 2003

Merchant Price Discount
AM $19.95 0%

BMM $17.96* 10%
*Millionaire's Club Price ( 10% Discount with $10 annual fee )

BN $18.95* 5%
*Readers' Advantage Price ( 5% Discount with $25 annual fee )

Borders $19.95 0%

[marky1]

40 titles come up; two are below the magic price but are just over 105-122 pp. It is clearly a page-count criteron issue.

www.amazon.com/exec/obido...05-5503249 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/ref=s_sf_b_as/002-8091505-5503249)

[Canada James]

You know what Marky? I'm not getting into this with you. You are obviously just a poor, bored soul who can't get a date and gets off on making people mad over the Internet. That's sad and I'll pray for you.

And why should I argue with you? MY price will be fixed with PA, my book won't be $19.95, and you'll find something else to badger me about. Meanwhile, you'll still have been the only author turned down by PA for his second book, and have a first book out at a shocking $19.95 retail price that won't sell.

Canada James

[Evil Genius]

Canada James, I take your last comment to mean that your book isn't selling either at that shocking price?

By the way, just how mad did Marky1 make you?

[marky1]

Looks to me like there are a majority of PA books that hold that price; don't sell; and since 80% of all submissions are turned down, to hear them tell it, hence these are the 20% cream of the crop. That doesn't make me unique since I'm one of them. I guess Macdonald couldn't do anything with your work either.

As for the rest. Close your eyes, click your heels and repeat...there's no place like home....there's no place like home........and if you're lucky you'll return to earth because clearly you're over the rainbow now.

[Dave Kuzminski]

I find it remarkable that James would point to a particular rejection in such a manner as if to state that publisher was incapable of making a mistake when we all know that countless books have been rejected, some many times, by publishers only to eventually be accepted elsewhere, published, and prove to be bestsellers in the market. The only thing that any publisher's rejection proves is that the publisher believed that particular manuscript wasn't a good match for them at that time.

[marky1]

That is the order of the day with legitimate houses, but at PA I took it to mean that my rejected project, offered only as a test of their metal, meant that they only accept works that can be exploited. They don't want nonfiction liabilities, fact-checking promotion etc. This is evidence of a amateur author mill. Which is what they are.

C. James is looking for evidence of his superiority by trying to discredit me, sans facts. It is quite obvious that he's sailing down a river in Eqypt with the majority of PA authors.

[James D Macdonald]

I've been away for a week or so teaching at a <a href="http://www.sff.net/paradise/" target="_new">writers' workshop</a>. Please don't make any assumptions about what I can and can't do.

The way I see it, you're a writer, C. James is a writer, I'm a writer; we're all writers. We're just at different points on our journeys and have different ideas about publication.

I still think that publishing with PA is a rotten idea. C. James seems to think differently. Whether he's a brilliant writer or a lousy writer is irrelevant, as is whether I'm a great writer or a lousy one.

[Canada James]

message deleted by user

[James D Macdonald]

Careful James, you're making friends with the enemy.

Canada James, I'm gonna hit you upside the head with a copy of Strunk & White. How many times do I have to tell you that I'm not your enemy, or the enemy of any author?

Too many PA authors think that anyone who criticizes their publisher is pissing on their book. I don't know about anyone else, but I hope I have the the ability to see the difference between the author and his work, and the between the work and the publisher.

What I also see is a lot of naifs who have made a decision that they're going to regret. It's a pity.

I think the jury is still out on your own decision. In the fullness of time you'll know how it turned out for you. I trust that you'll be forthright enough to let us know how you fared. Good or bad, I'm interested.

Don't get complacent, though -- in a couple of minutes I'm going to go lambast PA (and perhaps hurt the feelings of a PA author) in another thread here. So maybe I am the enemy.


=============

Yo momma is so old, she took her drivers' test on a chariot.

[Canada James]

message deleted by user

[marky48]

"No, but it is selling at the proper price. Luckily I didn't count on the on-line stores as my major source of sales."

Right. I'm sure the same stores will sell it at the PA online price should a copy make it into a store.

[James D Macdonald]

No one with any sense counts on on-line sales. All of Amazon equals two or three big-box bookstores.

Get on the shelves at B&N and you can keep Amazon.

============

Yo momma's so fat you have to take a train and two busses to get on her good side.

[Canada James]

message deleted by user

[James D Macdonald]

There's an office supply store down the street from me. They have a book display area, and will order books too. It's the closest thing to a bookstore in this town.

If I ordered your book from them (just walked up to the nice young lady at the counter and gave the title and author, like any normal customer), what would the price be?

==========

Yo momma is so ugly even Rice Krispies won't talk to her.

[marky48]

You're not capable of proving anyone wrong but yourself. I wouldn't buy one copy of your book at any price. James MacD's copy where he lives would run more than $20. Shipping is more still. The price is listed correctly as designed.

[Canada James]

message deleted by user

[James D Macdonald]

Shall we put a time limit on the wager? If Ingram doesn't have the $16.95 price listed by Christmas Eve (24 December 2003), Marky wins. If the $16.95 price is listed by Christmas Eve, Canada James wins.

Fair enough?

[marky48]

Unfortunately, we're talking about national chains not local only stores. It seems to me the PA online price was $14.95? Has that increased to $16.95? Of course we're arguing semantics here. I question the product and the publisher. No one was provided a reason for any customer to want such a book in the first place. Doesn't an author or publisher have to do that?

[James D Macdonald]

You'd think there wouldn't be a big market for Knitting With Dog Hair either, but that didn't stop St. Martin's from publishing it.

For all I know Canada James' book is one that hundreds of thousands of people would read with pleasure and recommend to their friends. I greatly fear, however, that since he chose to go with PA he'll be hard-put to find a hundred who will even try it.

[marky48]

I don't recall making a ten-copy bet with anyone. The question remains what is the shelf price? Even BN allows a dollar discount for some buyers right now.

[marky48]

I concur. It won't realy matter what the writing is. The company will keep him in the waste basket of the publishing world, and for the most part out of the stores.

[marky48]

It's not as if there has been no precedent for the PA plan. Many of us tried the POD route and it has been universally unsuccessful for all. I gave PA an iUniverse book that still sells (and I take great liberty with the term) for $10.95. Books "printed" in this venue are worthless regardless of price. That is the case with PA.

[Canada James]

message deleted by user

[marky48]

Unfortunately, your expectations are low. There's those pesky rule changes again. You're just another local PA "author" who has conned, in this case your employer into stocking a copy of your PA book. I suspect you paid for it as well. That's a far cry from J.K. Rowling. As for what's between the covers. That's pure conjecture. If that was the case a real publisher would have bought your book as one has my last effort, rejected, as you say, by PA. So sad to be that pompous, and still a clerk.

[Canada James]

message deleted by user

[James D Macdonald]

And I thought we had agreed that publishers turn down manuscripts only to be bought by others who make them bestsellers?

Yes, this happens, though not as often as author folklore would have you believe.

Most books are rejected because they're mediocre-to-bad. They keep getting rejected.

Some books are rejected (for a variety of reasons), are picked up by another publisher (remember: if a book is publishable by one house it's publishable by many), then go on to a perfectly ordinary sales history.

Some very, very few are rejected by one publisher, accepted by another, then go on to be bestsellers.

That last is a rare case. It would be a mistake to base your career plans on it.

Consider also: Had those books been picked up by the first house they were submitted to, they might not have gone on to be bestsellers. The editor is not only asking "Is this book publishable?" but "Can we publish it well?"

==========

Yo momma is so clumsy she tripped over a cordless phone.

[marky48]

Well, yours won't be one of them since PA has it. I'm a student full time at the moment, and because unlike some PA-POD-clerk-book-magnates I don't know it all yet so there are many things to add to the list everyday. There is one other PA man over on the bewares board who talked the price down at PA from $34.95 to $19.95, but for some reason it only appears at PA. Who does that remind us of?

[James D Macdonald]

As far as I'm concerned my venture has netted me the goals I set when signing with PA, and it isn't even officially out yet.

Canada James, would you be good enough to state explicitly what those goals were? I'm sure they're buried in the wodge of posts that came before in various threads here, but it would be handy to have them all in one place.

==============

[marky48]

Here is another satisfied PA customer. His proce wasn't changed either.

pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolu...D=14.topic (http://pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessage?topicID=14.topic)

[astonwest]

Interesting...when I first signed on with PA, I attempted to negotiate my price down with the folks at PA, and was given the response that they set the price at the level "the customer is willing to pay"...amazingly enough, when I gave them ample evidence to the contrary, I was quickly placed on the $#!@list...

On to the other topics here...

First, James, in the PA online store, there's a $3 shipping charge on the first book (but only $.50 on the second, so get everyone to order multiple copies to save money)...so the end price to the customer is still the same as if they were to order it in a brick-and-mortar bookstore. I don't know if they still offer free shipping on pre-orders as they did with my book (it was offered for $2 off cover at the time)...if so, make copies and distribute them to everyone you can find...

I've also been able to get local stores to reduce the price of my book...how? by supplying my own books, and giving them a rational argument in regards to the price. One (Borders) sells it for $4 off cover ($12.95), the others (both B&N) at 20% off. At least until the next book comes out...then I couldn't care what they do with it, because my efforts will be refocused.

It is rather amusing when folks make claims when their books haven't come out yet...I myself was in the PA-supporter camp until my book came out and reality came crashing down...but that was a long time ago...

oh well...such is life...other books to write, and many other publishers to choose from.

[marky48]

Consider this sad exchange. "If we we buy 500 of our own books we'll get hard cover and return status." Right. What a heartbreaking scam.

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/1145.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/1145.htm)

[James D Macdonald]

Please notice the following things about this astounding offer:

1. They don't say that they will publish a returnable version of your book if you've sold 500+ copies, only that they'll consider it.

2. These books will only be available via Waldenbooks.

3. The books will only be returnable if ordered direct from PA (rather than via a distributor like Ingram or B&T).

4. Waldenbooks will have to prepay for orders.

5. Minimum orders will be required.

6. Returns after 90 days won't be accepted.

In short, I expect very few books to make it into the "Independence" program. I expect few of those books to be ordered. Those that are ordered will most likely be returned in four to six weeks.

This sounds similar to the iUniverse "Star" program. I won't be surprised if 1stBooks and the rest follow suit.

So... why are PoD presses suddenly starting to offer returns? I suspect it's because authors are starting to figure out that getting published by a vanity PoD means that they'll have little luck getting their books shelved in bookstores, few readers, and fewer sales. The vanity PoDs are therefore holding up the carrot, however distant, unobtainable, or made of vapor it may be, of quasi-legitimate publication with a return option.

Another reason for this program is to provide another push to authors to buy their own books. What would 500 books cost the author at PA's author price? $5,000? Consider that the usual advance for a first novel in traditional publishing is $2,000-$5,000. The reason for that dollar figure is that publishers reasonably expect a first novel to earn the author between $2K and $5K. That's with a standard royalty on cover price. When you consider that PA offers just 8% on net (someone correct me if I'm wrong), the PA author who has bought his own books would have to be spectacularly lucky to earn back his "investment," let alone make a profit.

[marky48]

You're not wrong, that is the royalty, which as we've seen is much lower that the vanity PODs where the rights are kept with the auhor! James Macd. zeros in on the faulty points of the PA scam with his Samurai sword of truth.

This is a classic scam run by the literary equivalent of an Irish "Traveler." And he came to land where anything is possible, rife with customers eager to believe him. Who got hardcover "Independence" status? Willem Meiners. What a surprise; $29.95. For a stunning look at the legacy do a search at Amazon for PublishAmerica. Select A-Z. Most are $25. These poor victims lost the rights for 99 years. I've heard from some of them.

[marky48]

It is no wonder visitors to this site get the wrong idea, when on one hand we're trying to educate writers about PODs and on the announcements thread POD authors are applauded;in fact groveled to. Talk about a mixed message. Why bother? It's like groundhog day only in cartoon.

[James D Macdonald]

You're not wrong, that is the royalty, which as we've seen is much lower that the vanity PODs where the rights are kept with the auhor!

I'm not interested in the other vanity PODs. Who cares what their royalty rate is? 50% of nothing is still nothing.

That 8% of net is a sucky rate compared to traditional in-the-bookstore advance-against-royalty publication royalties.

[Tish Davidson]

It is no wonder visitors to this site get the wrong idea, when on one hand we're trying to educate writers about PODs and on the announcements thread POD authors are applauded;in fact groveled to. Talk about a mixed message. Why bother? It's like groundhog day only in cartoon.


People have different goals in "publishing" (read "printing") a POD book. So long as they don't think they are real authors, I'm fine with it. Sadly, many think they are going to be the next John Grisham, etc. I've decided that one of the great things about a capitalist society is that the marketplace takes care of these suckers.

[James D Macdonald]

I can't say that I agree with you, Tish.

Anyone who finishes a book is a real author. I've met enough new writers to know that they're eager, and hopeful, and utterly defenseless. Some percentage of the people who are sucked into the vanity-press schemes will be good writers, led astray by fancy stories told by hard-eyed scammers. Dreams are such fragile things. Seeing them shattered is sad. What shall we say to make up for the good writer, embittered by the experience, thinking that what they encountered was what publishing is all about, who never attempts to publish again?

That's why I'm trying to warn the new writers. I don't see them as competition. I see them as colleagues.

[aka eraser]

And POD does fill a niche that traditonal publishing, in its understandable desire for maxing sales, does not; poetry and very specialized non fiction come to mind.

It's the Publish America's of the POD world, dangling dreams in front of naive, primarily fiction authors, who are tarring the industry.

[Tish Davidson]

I have to disagree with you James about anyone finishing a book being an author. Maybe technically that is true, but in facilitating writers groups, critiquing, etc. I've seen a lot of first drafts that have never been revised and will never be revised. The "author" just splats out a lot of words and thinks it is a book. I don't consider people authors just because they put words on paper. They have to be willing to work critically with those words, revise, re-write, edit, accept criticism and evaluate its worth. Those people I consider authors, published or not.

[James D Macdonald]

Indeed it does fill a niche. My favorite example of an on-demand book is Self Steering You Can Build: A Do It Yourself Manual For The HV-101 by William A. Wensel. There probably aren't enough people who want to build a self-steering mechanism for a sailboat under forty feet long to interest a commercial printer, or to have Barnes&Noble stock it. The people who do want to build such a device, on the other hand, are motivated to seek it out and will pay any price to have the instructions.

Poetry is another thing that's traditionally self-published. With very rare exceptions, most poets only sell their chapbooks from a box at the back of the hall after they've done a reading. The low print run capacity of Print on Demand is good for them. It means they don't have to fill their bedrooms with cartons of books. If all the sales someone can reasonably expect are face-to-face, it makes sense to use a printing method where the only sales you can expect to make are face-to-face.

[DaveKuzminski]

I have to agree with James D. Macdonald's statements concerning POD and authors. Requiring a writer to adhere to one person's criteria about what establishes an individual as an author as opposed to a wannabe ignores the fact that the words as those stand in a writer's manuscript may express that writer's exact sentiments and therefore need no further embellishment, rewriting, editing, or revision of any sort. In fact, no amount of such activity can guarantee that a manuscript will pass everyone's criteria. Even books from highly respected publishers with plenty of resources still manage to carry mistakes past the printing press onto the book shelves of stores. Consequently, I have to go with the simpler definition that an author is someone who has finished a manuscript. Much as I would like to see such efforts highly polished, that is not reasonable. After all, the publishing industry has produced numerous works from authors whose work needed extensive editing by those skilled enough to convert their finished manuscripts into something more legible.

[marky48]

Well, I'm glad I waited on this one. For me, a nonfiction writer who writes stories in the vein of John McPhee, or attempts to, I don't know if my work is specialized or not. I just know editors didn't want it. Memoirs, travelers' tales, Ist person reporting are frowned upon.

An editor at Random House I interviewed included the same old memoirs as the slushpile in her rendition that the POD model was not a valuable proving ground for finding new authors. It's a cliche. Old lady or man does nothing, writes book about it. There has to be a hook. Most don't have one but think they do. Editors know that. The slush pile still works for finding good writing. PODs don't.

I also know that the argument I've been helping to make being a POD author has been used against me in disparagement, even by brainwashed PA authors who had the exact POD history as I. What stigma. There's almost no way to live it down.

I'm a scientist. I spent ten years writing my first book traveling the country meeting the people and working on conservation problems still in the headlines today. No one cares because the book is a POD; a Random House venture at the time. In essence you're all right. In science, and all of life, exceptions rarely make the rule.

PA is another matter. They are masquerading as real, and they're not. The first defense against PODs is they didn't pay to publish. A dollar came glued to a piece of paper lauding their great success! That's all the people need. They're preying on senior citizens, and kids alike. They're nothing but AMWAY sales people for the benefit of one man. That's a crime in my view and I intend to do something about it. I may have already. I appreciate the help.

[marky48]

Mr. Ashton West on the previous page is a case in point. PA screwed him yet he is spineless when it comes to fighting back, spending much more time fighting and ridiculing others than PA. This is an alter-ego of Steven Shrewsbury.

Apparently he feels the need for a Jekyll & Hyde presence in the discussion. But it doesn't hide the truth very well if that's the design. Sure makes it more convenient to threaten people though.

[James D Macdonald]

I'm still disagreeing, Tish.

Not that I like you the less for it.

Just because someone's written a totally unpublishable dog's-breakfast of a novel doesn't make them fair game to be scammed and stolen from.

[Tish Davidson]

I absolutely agree that no matter how bad the writing, it doesn't make them fair game for a scam. However, it doesn't make them an author either. My definition is that you're a writer if you write, whether it is journaling, writing for a writers group or your own pleasure or for self-publication. But you aren't an author until you've had something published that involves a legitimate selection process. Feel free to disagree, but that's how I've worked it out in my own head. I respect writers who write for the effort they have put in, but don't consider them authors.

[marky48]

Tish do published articles count? Or does it have to be a full-length book writer of a certain standard length 150-300+ pp. accepted by a non-POD house to qualify one as an author? There is a hint of social Darwinism in parts of this thesis.

And just for clarity, PA doesn't ask for money, that's the hook. They pretend to have a selection process declining 80% and pay the "authors" $1 for the privilege. For contrast the poet at 1st Books library paid $350 to print his book. I had to write them a letter to get them to stop soliciting me with junk mail. There's a difference. I'm just trying to nail down the criteria of the term "author."

[Tish Davidson]

Sure published articles count. Anything where there is a genuine selection process indicating that someone besides the author thinks that the work has merit and is willing to invest in it. (Invest in a broad sense, as in paying for paper to print it on or the labot to post it). I consider journalists authors - the selection is in the hiring process and again in what goes to press. I consider technical writers or manuals and such the same way. I consider myself an author of non-fiction and a writer of fiction, although I'm working to change that. But I consider "unpublished author" to be an oxymoron and prefer the term "unpublished writer". To be an author, other people need to be brought into the selectin and publishing process. To be a writer, all it takes is you and a piece of paper or a computer screen.

I suppose I am on the war path, because I am irritated at my local paper. I had 2 legitimate books for middle school kids come out from a respected published this fall. The local paper would not do a story on them (despite review copy and press kit from pub and the fact that I was doing workshops at local elementary schools for California Author's week), but for the last month, every week the book page has done a big feature on someone who has self-published with Xlibirs, firstbooks and PA. And it really frosts me.

[marky48]

Understood, and that frosts me too. Who are the vanity books you mentioned here in California?

[astonwest]

I don't know why you keep making guesses as to my identity...but you keep getting it wrong...Aston (not Ashton) is not an alter-ego of Mr. Shrewsbury...sigh......

concentrate on your lawsuit against PA instead...

And here you go, Marky, I formally APOLOGIZE for the blaster comment...I shouldn't have said it, but I was sick of hearing you run your mouth against the good people at Mindsight...

[Shrews]

Mark, I heard I was spoken of over here and had to come see.
Sorry, dude, never in my life have I ever posted under the alias Aston West.
That is a character in a sci fi novel, BTW, pubbed by PA. Not mine. Not my
character, not my persona.

If I had anything really nasty to say to you, I would. All I said on the
MINDSIGHT board was, yeah, heard all that crap about PA before and I never
DISAGREED now, did I? I just sorta get weary with folks beating a dead horse
over there. That I have never hidden. I made jokes about it under my own
name because it was getting pathetically funny.

All I said was to give it a rest and write some new material. If this is bad
advice, I am sorry for you. I have not the time nor effort to haunt boards
and post under pseudo names. Never did I defend PA.

I learned my lesson with PA. Spineless? If you have something to say to me,
say it Mark.

Go write and get published. It is as simple as that. I have and I learn
lessons from my mistakes....I refuse to be enslaved by crap from the past. I
have more offers to write tales than I can fill.
Over 300 of my tales have apepared in print or online. A new paperback of
brand new Dack Shannon tales will appear this December. 2 different places
want to make a PB of DEPTHS OF SAVAGERY. I am farming out a fantasy novel to
an agent. I am writing a collab for a possible TOR release.

Why did I take the time to come to this forum? I was told by a friend
someone accused me of making a threat on you or being Aston West on
mindsight.

Christ on a cracker, I got better crap to do with my time than to listen to
this prattling silliness....

ya'all have a nice day.

[marky48]

Well, I may be bad at guessing faux identities on the web since fiction is not my forte, but we've had a number of PA plants and what not here, and there. But no mind, you're free to think and do anything you like and I wish you well. Most agree with me though and want to do something about PA. You don't. That's your choice.

Others shoose differently. From my point of view PA apologists contribute to the problem, and some here just plain work for them. Frankly it's hard to sort them out. I prefer for or against. It simplifies the matter.

[Shrews]

I have better things to do with my time than defend or attack PA. If I thought there was a real chance of making a difference, I would listen. I do nto have the time nor energy to devote to such a thing. I wish you WELL in attempts to do whatever it is you are trying to do. I'd rather focus on my career and move forward and not dwell on such things.

But attacking someone by name is really out of line, when you do not have all your facts, it is really bad. Shrugs. I've been called worse, but that is ok. Forget it. Crap happens. But as I advise to think before you sub to a POD, think before you post. Friendly advice from a writer.

[marky48]

I do wish you well, in your writing efforts, but being jacked around in juvenile banter is not the way to find facts. Straight forward answers would have prevented to whole misunderstanding if that's what it was. I heard all kinds of crap there, sorting it out was not helped by the writers on that site and in fact my big publisher, and I were trashed.

Was I supposed to be impressed or happy? Some of those writers have moved on? To Dandelion POD? Funny, it mirrored my experience on the PA board and PA writers chime in all the time. What's the difference?

As for the complaint process, like publisher promotion it's invisible to the author/complainant. All it takes is someone to get the ball rolling. I had time.

[James D Macdonald]

I know that y'all didn't ask my advice, but here it is anyway.

1) Don't say anything that isn't true.
2) Don't say anything that isn't helpful.
3) Work on your craft every day.
4) Support your fellow writers (don't blame the victims).
5) Warn the new, less experienced writers away from the scammers.
6) Remember why you write. Hold it fast.
7) This is a lonely, pitiless business. Cherish your friends.
8) Respect words.

[Canada James]

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[CWGranny]

What really happens is -- ignore the children's writers because everyone knows we don't write *real* books and play up to the adult writers because an adult novel, even if you have to pay to get it published or even if you've been published with NO editorial oversite, MUST be more important than a kid's book -- any kid's book.

Kidwriters face it every day...the devalue of the child.
What you do for children, doesn't count, anyone could do it, and you wouldn't do it if you had any *real* talent.

For any vanity press writer who thinks they get no respect, they should try being a kid writer...even Katherine Paterson was asked repeatedly when she was going to write a *serious* (meaning adult) novel -- and this is a woman with 2 Newberys and an honor book.

Sheesh indeed.

Gran

[James D Macdonald]

Yeah, tell me about it, Granny. About half my books are for kids. Reaction in the press and among the public is like night and day.

Then you have all these celebrities who decide to write a book, and surprise! they write a kid's book.

Here's a rule to live by: Never buy a kid's book written by someone who's famous for anything besides writing kids' books. You'll save yourself a lot of grief.

[marky48]

Without devolving into a genre fight, while local press sometimes writes local author stories, but little do they know that the so-called author has bought the copies, and begged the store for an immitation signing. This is the equivalent of an AMWAY team. Most of them fail too. The product is unecessary and inferior.

Canada James, you'll have to bring me your torch; the tribe has spoken.

[James D Macdonald]

It's the job of local press to write up local stories about local folks. Even if it's a vanity-published book. In my town, we have two weeklies -- and they do stories about birthday parties, if you send 'em the info.

Becoming a "home town celebrity" isn't all that tough to do, and it isn't all that great, either.

[marky48]

I know. I'm from that part of the country. I've never had a letter to the editor turned down. It takes more to get the four I had published in the New York Tmes and get the cartoonist to illustrate to boot.

[CWGranny]

My little hometown paper used to do write ups of folks who were published by World of Poetry. I always felt so bad for those people.

Gran

[marky48]

How about this number?

www.prweb.com/releases/20...eb84640.ht (http://www.prweb.com/releases/2003/10/prweb84640.ht)

Traditional? Advances? $1.

Or this two-time PA author, also one of the paper's staff reporters.

www.winchesterstar.com/Th...nalist.asp (http://www.winchesterstar.com/TheWinchesterStar/030605/Life_journalist.asp)

[Tish Davidson]

CWGranny you are write about kids books. Even my daughter (going through those delightfule know-it-all teenage years) said when my two books were published "so what's the big deal. They're only kids books." I told her the big deal was that the advance was paying her horse's board and training this year.

[marky48]

Speaking of horses, PA continues to rip off children's writers equally with any other genre. It matters little to them.

www.publishamerica.com/cg...rs/634.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/newauthors/634.htm)

[James D Macdonald]

From <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/newauthors/634.htm" target="_new">www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/newauthors/634.htm</a>:

Also, I was assured that it would still be available in most book stores, as well as all online stores.

<hr />

No, no, no, Roz. Not available in most bookstores. Available through most bookstores. A difference bigger than you dream.

[marky48]

The impression is no accident.

[James D Macdonald]

Oh, I know that the impression is no accident. But I do believe that they've carefully written all their material to be lawyer-proof, so that when the courts get done parsing what the meaning of "is" is, that they'll find PA hasn't committed fraud under the law.

For all that they've weasel-worded their material to lead the inexperienced and trusting astray.

[marky48]

Alas, I know James and I fear that too. But I have to try. The nasty treatment of authors is well-documented and charging people to leave with imaginary stock-on-hand then ordering that stock is well, debatable as to the legality. Let's just see. I agree with Tish's definition of an author. If only vanity-POD-published, one is just another unpublished writer. If the shoe fits.

[James D Macdonald]

Today's the day C. James' <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1592866816/" target="_new">novel</a> comes out.

Congrats, guy.

No matter how things turn out, you're following your path.

[Canada James]

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[James D Macdonald]

I can report the truth as it happens even when it isn't on my side.

No one said you couldn't or wouldn't, my friend. I'm interested in your progress and in how those quicksand-walking shoes work out for you. (Do be careful of the snakes.)

[marky48]

All of us here, especially myself have reported the truth as it happened, before you got to the process. There is precedent for what you claim to have done, or will do. Nancy Mehl and Laurel Johnson both had their prices lowered. They couldn't get out of the contract though and are not satisfied in any way with the PA process and organization.

You may want to land at mindsight forum, I've been banned there too for being anti-PA, just like, at PA. Strange coincidence? The prices are strictly on page count. And I believe it's "lightning." What James and others are trying to do is enlighten. But it's not welcome by believers in PA, on any level. That's the shame.

[Deejay816]

Mark - Not meaning to argue with you, but I don't believe you were banned from the mindsight forum for being anti-PA. If you would simply take the time to read through the threads you would learn that many people have posted there who are anti-PA. If you have been banned, and I see no reason for you to lie about this, perhaps it was for another reason. Did you attempt to find out or simply assume they did not want any anti-PA sentiment on their boards?

Deejay

[astonwest]

"I've been banned there too for being anti-PA, just like, at PA."

DJ, you're right on the money...people don't get banned from Mindsight for being "anti-PA"...one simple look (albeit it may take a while to run through all the old posts) would show what folks on Mindsight really think of PA...

Simply because most of the users have chosen to move on with their lives, apparently that now makes them "PA supporters"? How laughable...

If he was banned from Mindsight, I imagine it would have been for his disrespectful attitude, which he displays on every occassion...and this incestuous need of his to badmouth everyone and anyone that doesn't fall into his "rally round the flag" battle cry...

I think C. James is already familiar with mindsight...he's visited there on occasion...what do you think, C. James? Mindsight a hotbed for PA supporters?? Pbbbttt....

[marky48]

I was, in three days time, and it was because, as the record there will attest, they've moved on (to more PODs) and fear that their PA books will be confiscated by the courts. I said I didn't give a damn if they did, mine included. That's what this is about. Their books aren't worth squat, only they don't know it. That's no fault of mine. Fred and Pac agree with me and have told me so. That's good enough for the girls I used to go with.

As for aston whoever the hell he is, stuff that down the barrel of your blaster. How little you know is obvious to all but you. It's no coincidence.

I don't lie; don't need to. But telling the truth has repercussions. DeeJay you fit the enabler mode well. They're afraid. I'm not. They don't want PA out of business. I do and really don't care who is afraid to join in or not. As I've said the train left the station regardless of who is onboard or not. The result will be the same. It's up to the feds now.

[CWGranny]

So you think you were banned for acting like Fred, a long-standing Anti-PA ranter who posts frequently on Mindsight. Fred's never been banned and he could probably out rant you in a head to head. Why would they ban YOU when they have been tolerant and relatively kind to Fred for over a year? You didn't say anything Fred hasn't said when he's in a hot rant.

Actually, this reminds me of something one of the PA cheerleaders did one time on Mindsight. He posted some rah-rah PA drivel. Then, someone posted on another thread which made it jump to the top of the list. So the PA cheerleader thought his post disappeared! The guy couldn't figure out that he just needed to click on the NEXT LINK where his rant remained (and still remains to this day.)

Of course, he dashed off to the PA board to announce that *HIS* posts were deleted from Mindsight. He didn't try to figure out what HIS mistake was -- he just dashed off making wild accusations. Hey, there's another PA cheerleader your acting like. Wow.

It sounds like the same thing happened to you. Perhaps if you had read the discussion board you could have figured out why you were having a problem posting. Or when you emailed the owner to ask why you were having posting problems, he could have helped you with it...you did email him before you started making wild accusations -- right? All the other people who had posting problems with the change he implimented emailed him and he helped them through it. You did TRY to find out what the problem was before making wild accusations -- right? Please, tell us what he said when you asked about the issue.

I thought so.

Gran

[marky48]

Well, gran I know you're hard on me, but I'll accept that on face value at this point. Your theory is however incorrect. CE made the statement that "he'd had enough of me at this point" as he put it. And that was it. Previously I had been threatened by that west character. I was then pounced on for agreeing with the Nevada woman. Then she proceded to call me names including things like "he doesn't know his 'arse' from a hole in the ground" and so on. They had a good laugh on the matter. At that point it's "kiss my grits time baby." And this is after thanking them for their input.

I have testimony on my side. What do you have? You know I'm just about sick of this writer clique thing. What a pack of petty small minded people.

[CWGranny]

If, when you emailed CEW to ask about why you couldn't post -- he told you it was because he had had enough of you, then I apologize. Clearly, you must have been banned.

I do know that a system was implimented at that exact time to prevent the influx of trolls (which you came in on the tail end of) and I assumed it had caught you in its net (since trolls never email to ask about why they can't post). And since you make it a habit to run off with a full head of steam, I assumed you had not followed up.

But, clearly I was wrong since you did email and ask...and since CE told you he wouldn't let you register because he had had enough -- that would amount to a ban. I apologize. I was wrong. You did make the effort to learn why you couldn't post.

Gran

[marky48]

Actually, no. But I'm frequently described as the dolphin in the tuna net. Ironic for a professional fish biologist but frustratingly true. He said so online. I attempted to post after that and was unable. I don't need a weatherman to know what direction the wind blows from. And I have no desire to beg access to an abuse fest at my expense. Sorry, I've got more of a life than that. I was banned out of fear of PA bankruptcy and told so by CE. I don't agree.

[Deejay816]

And what is that supposed to mean, Mark? It seems to me that you easily turn on people when they do not agree with you 100%. I have enabled no one to do anything - how could I when I haven't endorsed one side or the other of the argument, but simply pointed out what I see to be the truth? My views may differ from yours, but I don't jump all over people because they won't see things my way - all that does is put up defenses and make people disagree with you on principle alone. Please don't insult in order to make points - tell me exactly what you mean, then, as two adults, we can discuss or not as we see fit.

Deejay

[marky48]

What it means is that despite your absolute evidence of what PA is and has done to you, you still don't want to even so much as file a complaint because, I mean, oh well, what good would it do anyway? That's what I mean. Others had the courage to do what I did. Your way, simply put will allow it to continue, maybe forever. That's not an insult; that's a fact.

To put it into Revolutionary War terms: there were patriots; loyalists; and fence-sitters who wouldn't really take sides and hoped everything turned out OK. Guess what my family did?

[Deejay816]

You have no idea what my way is - you cannot because I haven't told you. I did say that I didn't have time right now, I did not say I wouldn't do anything. Again, you seem not only to want to tell other PA writers what to do, but when to do it. You have stated repeatedly that you have done your research, which is a good thing. But perhaps you should give other people a chance to do their own in-depth research before they take the steps they find necessary to protect their own interests. Yes, protecting one's own interests is important to some people.

And, just so you know, this is not akin to the Revolutionary War - lives are not at stake here and my heart is not stirred into action by calls to patriotism - it is not the same thing AND I am not a fence sitter, nor do I jump when someone tells me to. I will do what I need to do when the time is right for me, not when you, or anyone else, tells me to do it.

Mark, if you want people to support you, it is best not to turn against them when their reactions are not as strong as yours or their timetables are slightly different than your own. Support is generated through mutual respect and understanding.

Deejay

Deejay

[CWGranny]

I understand now. CE didn't say he banned you because you didn't actually talk to him. He did say he'd had enough of you -- but, well, he isn't the only one on the site who said something very like that since you were pretty abrasive -- that doesn't necessarily mean you were banned.. And then you couldn't get into the site because you hadn't registered. And you didn't want to register because why go to all that trouble for the sake of getting abused for being pompous and obnoxious (which is perfectly understandable and I am SURE they would rather you didn't register and re-visit.)

CE never said, I've had enough of you for picking on PA, we don't allow that around here...because, well, they do allow that. Fred post there almost daily and as far as I can tell, Fred's dislike of PA is *almost* his only topic. Why not ban Fred? He hates PA. Hates them. Why not ban him? He hates them in every post. If CE was all quivery scared of PA -- why is Fred there?

So really, you didn't get banned from Mindsight for spouting anti-PA sentiments -- that would be illogical. Victoria is welcome to post there -- she posted today and it wasn't to sing "Hail to PA." Fred posts. Most (if not all) seven of the people who made the original...now oddly disappeared...compaints to the Maryland AG post there and they still hate PA.

I know they did encourage you not to let PA consume you -- not to make an idol of this PA thing. And I know that you feel any comment like that is a sign of timidity at best and rank cowardice at worst...and you're quite vocal about feeling that way. I know you really really really really hated having anyone (especially a group of stangers whom you expected to rally around the cause) suggest you need to get past all this rage. And I know you behaved badly as a result. I've seen the posts.

And CE said he had enough of that kind of knee-jerk bad behavior. Guess what? They say it to Fred, too, and he goes on his merry way obsessing about PA right there on Mindsight. CE has said it to a number of visitors who keep coming back. If you had registered and come back -- he would probably end up saying it to you again -- and again -- and again...because he wouldn't have let you call deejay a coward without telling you "I've had enough of that."

So, really, since you didn't actually hear it from CE.
And since you actually never tried to register.
And since you said you wouldn't even be interested in trying because no one likes you there.

Well, it would be good to quit lying about it. See when you say you got banned for anti-PA statements -- that' called a lie. You didn't get banned for dis'sing PA. They aren't afraid of folks who dis PA since some of their regulars do it. And basically, if you lie about something like that...it kind of kills your credibility as the caped crusader.

New writers NEED NEED NEED to hear the truth about PA. They need desperately to be steered away from the rocks. So either clean up your act and behave in a credible, sensible fashion or find a new obsession because credibility is the more important weapon you have.

Not to mention how much it must amuse the hell out of Meiners to see you say Mindsight is a bunch of PA protectors (and we know the PA powers-that-be read this board) -- with the time and energy PA has put into trying unsuccessfully to gag the Mindsight regulars, having some yay-hoo undermine that pretty much puts you right in the PA camp. Not to mention scaring away anyone Mindsight might help.

So, unless you're a PA mole...cut it out because you're hurting the cause.

Gran

[marky48]

Don't you tell me to do a god damned thing you pompous wench. I agreed with before, but not now. What weasel-worded nuanced idiot pretzel logic. You people are psychotic. CE told me he'd had enough because of the bankruptcy thing and his self-interest. He banned me on the spot and that's all there is too it. If you can't see it then I recommend changing the prescription on your glasses. You're the one hurting the cause, but I don't give a rat's ass is that clear enough for you? I did my part, moaning over it on a daily basis is not my bag. Do what you want when you want. Buzz off.

[astonwest]

"So, unless you're a PA mole...cut it out because you're hurting the cause."

Honestly, that thought has been popping through my head more and more as the days go on...especially considering this latest tirade of his...

"You people are psychotic."

Odd, CWGranny isn't the one spewing venom in their post...yikes!

"CE told me he'd had enough because of the bankruptcy thing and his self-interest."

What the hell would he care? He simply stated a fact, that if PA went into bankruptcy, the rights would be tied up during the bankruptcy hearings...His rights wouldn't be affected (because he doesn't have book rights tied up with PA), so where does his "self-interest" come into play?

It sounded to me like he'd had enough (which was a completely separate post from the bankruptcy post, by the way) because you're rude to everyone who doesn't agree with your tactics...but that's just my opinion...

[marky48]

You're entitled to it, but it won't stand scrutiny. Doesn't have book rights tied up with PA? Oh really? Why doesn't he want them out of business then? He's too nice to wish that on a nice bunch like PA? If not him then the women there are in that position and this appears to be a group-think project. I don't do well with cliques. This ain't high school; for me anyway. Mole? You guys are into fiction way too deep. My name is on two filed claims against PA. You can look it up. Try that for a mole. Or better yet try out for reality show, your perfect for the part Jethro.

[Canada James]

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[CE Winterland]

Wow! All of this discussion about me and I've never even been here! Thanks for the publicity.

OK, so let's put this argument to rest, shall we?

For what it is worth, I cannot actually ban anyone from the Mindsight Forum, unless they are registered, but I suppose the argument could be made that that is simple semantics.

I have had to block free access from time to time, to keep the place civilized. That is precisely what happened in your case, Marky.

From what I have seen thus far of your web-presence, you seem bent on making inane statements that just aren't grounded in reality, parading around this militant attitude like a fount of instability. The problem is, you are alienating everyone with your personal attacks, even those who might be supporters of your 'cause'. You seem unable to let go of this frantic mother badger thing and bring yourself to a logical position. I see the 'cause' you are going on about, and could almost see my way to agreeing with some of your points, except for this love affair you seem to have with rage.

Rage ain't gonna get you anywhere. If we were actually in the civil war, I might be afraid you'd shoot me in the back, though we be on the same side.

You can obviously say almost anything you want out here in the world wide web. I wouldn't try to stop you or anyone else. But the Mindsight Forum happens to belong to me, and I just can't respect mindless rage from those who visit there because the people who frequent the Mindsight Forum want to have actual, logical discussions about writing and the business of writing.

I, for one, fully understand the frustration of feeling like you've been shafted. However, you can bash your fists against a brick wall until they are bloody stumps, or you can walk a few feet and find the door, open it, and enter. What you do from there is up to you, but I bet you raging in the faces of those who happen to come across you isn't going to get you much more than tossed out on the street again and possibly locked-out for good (unless it's a straight jacket and a rubber room).

As much as it may not seem like it at times, the world of humanity runs on logic. It's a tool for those who are trying to do something... anything. Learn to use that tool, and I think you'll find that your 'cause' will get a bit easier.

By the way, if you had read the statement that the Mindsight Forum puts up when an unregistered user tries to post, you would have seen that you are welcome to register to participate. The Mindsight Forum, though it is a free site and open to anyone who wishes to participate, has one real rule. You must play nice - meaning be rational and refrain from attacking the others there. It is, after all, my site, and I cannot respect mindless rage against the users of the site, or anyone else, for that matter.

I asked you nicely to refrain from that kind of behavior, and you either could not, or would not comply. You are welcome to register, but the Forum Cops will police the place diligently... registration is not free reign to blast everyone in site.

Well... certainly that's enough on that topic.

Good day.

C. E. Winterland

[marky48]

I just a lost a long post so I'm not going back into it again. You're wrong. I was insulted attacked and fought back. The anti-PA theme comes in at various levels. Some like your group are at a friendlier level; timid, against legal action and to hostile at anyone who would suggest such a thing. Crude but fine with me. I was insulted by West, crudely, then made the butt of the group's joke. Pardon me for striking back. Telling me I belong in a rubber room isn't endearing. At least not to me. Keep in mind I don't know any of you.

"As much as it may not seem like it at times, the world of humanity runs on logic. It's a tool for those who are trying to do something... anything. Learn to use that tool, and I think you'll find that your 'cause' will get a bit easier."

There is no evidence of logic use at your site. I'm a profesional scientist. How dare you preach logic to me, kid. If you had any sense of it you wouldn't be where you are now.

Fred and Pac agree with me and I have it in writing. The reasons are many for your fear and reluctance to fight PA. CE you pointed out that bankruptcy eats the author's rights. This may be true and some of the writers there are afraid of this and just want to sell their PA books. It's fruitless really. The books are worthless now. If you guys knew anything about publishing you wouldn't be arguing myth-based publishing falacies about traditional publishers with James and Victoria right on this site and yours. In every case you're wrong. I came asking questions: I was ridiculed and threatened. I got the message: PA stikes fear in the heartland.

But they don't in California. What you do is your business. I got the story, and the angle I went after at Mindsight. A different twist on the same thing, but the same nonetheless.

[James D Macdonald]

There are some who believe I blindly follow my publisher like a rabid ant on a greasy hot dog.

You do have a gift for vivid images, Canada.

Since this is the Take It Outside Board, though, I have to say:

a) Ants can't get rabies
b) Rabies seldom results in following foodstuffs, blindly or otherwise
c) Ants, if they could get rabies, would probably retain the same visual acuity that ants normally have
d) Following, when one is already on the hot dog, seems to be inconsistent.
e) Is "following" what it's suggested you're doing, or is it "trusting in"?
f) I liked the "greasy" quite a bit.

Maybe restate it as "believe my publisher's fairy tales like a particularly credulous stoat"?


=========

There have been entirely too few "yo momma" jokes on this board lately.

=========

[Deejay816]

Okay, James - here's my contribution

Yo mama's so big, her belly button's got an echo.

Deejay

P.S. Hope I don't have to insult anyone before I'm allowed to post a yo mama - I have no insults for anyone today (at least not yet, but it's not even lunchtime!)

[marky48]

Canada, CE et al....May the dung of many camels land directly in your path.

Camel: A horse designed by committee.

[CE Winterland]

Mark,

I'm not preaching... however, you do seem to be, don'tcha?

As for logic, is assuming I am a "kid" (and presumably all that that entails) logical? Not that I'm comparing or anything, but I have a degree in philosophy, which is, for anyone who has any experience in that area, essentially logic. I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything, nor am I suggesting that science does not also have its basis in logic (most of the time), and I'm certainly not preaching to those who couldn't hear me if they wanted to.

Not that anyone really cares, but you came to the Mindsight Forum and blasted everyone around you - it's all there for everyone to see - a matter of public record, really, at this point.

Just because I'm feeling playful... you said this (just there... above)

"You're wrong. I was insulted attacked and fought back."

...along with many other things, I feel compelled to say, which is not actually altogether true, is it?

Is it logical to base an argument on falsehood? Or rephrased... is it logical to base an argument on falsehoods as easily disproven as going to www.mindsightseries.com, (http://www.mindsightseries.com,) going to the forum and searching for users named "mark" and reading the trail of your rants and the replies from the users there?

Well, there I've done it.

Oh, by the way, I'm sure I could have a little fun pulling apart the logic of your words above, but likely not enough to bother wasting the effort on you. If I'm the "kid", then you must be the old dog that just ain't gonna learn, yeah?

CEW

[marky48]

Never try to convince a philosopher of anything. The record stands. Inferring "bashing" depends on the criteria and the group. Very sensitive bunch, and yes you are quite young. I distinclty remember being bashed on entry and posted the quote here. I was told not to pay attention to it. I guess it just depends who you are and what the message is. I got the story. That's all I was after, really. I even thanked everyone. That will be there too.

But as a philosopher certainly you know that following a false premise to a logical conclusion is prescription for disaster every time. It would have been helpful to post the actual thread not just the site. No one looks through all of these threads. That's why they ask directions first.

[Claudia]

Marky,

I am the woman from Nevada that you so blithely said was making fun of you. You bet I was. You are totally illogical and attacked anyone who tried to show you any response but the ones you were looking for. Sure you found a few of them, but that in no way means that you had the right to attack those that didn't respond to your goads and taunts as followers who would let you lead us and our books to slaughter.

Some of us have other agendas to follow, and that doesn't mean that we are PA supporters or that we weren't interested in what you had to say or even that we wouldn't have liked to have a friendly debate with you. It does mean that we don't like to be challenged in a place that we come to think about other things than PA, and that we consider we have friends in.

By bashing those of us that you are bashing here on this site, you are creating more enemies than you might ever know, because some of us are well respected in other areas. To come across as an instigator against us, when we are clearly not the enemy, is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen a person do. We have all been where you are, and most of us didn't like what we received from that company, but we have been forced through circumstances to make our peace with it. As Victoria stated, there isn't a lot of financial interest in pursuit of TV or big agency coverage of supposed indecencies to writers, as most people don't give a rats ass about what it took to write that (any)book. We never were your enemy, you made us be it with your insults and taunts when we didn't respond to your liking. You are filled with an ego problem that is magnified with your inability to understand logical conclusions, and you say you are a scientist. Yea right!!!! If you were as learned as you state, you wouldn'd go off half cocked and attack the very people you were supposedly trying to get to work with you. Where is the logic in that?? Or do you always open mouth and insert foot first before speaking or writing. If so, I am sure that your colleagues and co-workers really appreciate doing business with you.

I have never been to this site before as I was not going to be a PA basher throughout the WWW to any other places and people. You made me come here because you are an insufferable human being who has to make his ego the biggest on the block. Well, I registered and now, I am on this board, so, in one way, you have a score inning. Not being a PA basher or promoter is my choice. It is not an event that is or should be any of your concern or right to determine.

You even have the gall to argue with CE when he tells you the truth, boy that takes some ego. I guess you think you know all the truths in the world, because you are a scientist......

And the deal with Aston West and his supposed threat to you, get a life. You must be really tied up in knots about this whole thing with PA to be so set on its destruction. Get another life and do something different to take you mind off of it. PA is not the only thing in the world. Write another story, and smash them in there if that is what it takes, but for God's sake, don't take your hatred and vengance out on those that are with you. We were not your enemy. But many of us now sincerely doubt your authenticity and honesty of late.
Claudia

[CE Winterland]

Ah... the point of departure...

Well, Mark, I feel that I do owe you an apology - and I offer it up freely.

Things were apparently going along quite well, when towards the end of the 'PA's february convention' thread a fictitious character (as you have pointed out) by the name of Aston West apparently decided he'd try to lighten the ever growing mood of tension by talking nonsense about his blaster. It seems you chose to take this obvious fiction as fact... here was the reply that soured the group to you...

No, but I know a handful of split-personality "arseholes" when I meet them. You guys deserve what you got."

You mean to tell me that wasn't a purely antagonistic comment?

Separately, on the 'Let's all put our heads together' thread you started calling people PA lackeys. That seems to be where I asked that the discussion be toned down a little, not because I know or even give a... er... woot about the "oliver" person that posted the questions, but because of the tone, honestly.

It was when you were talking about the Mindsight Forum over here as though we all had some kind of hidden agenda ourselves that I blocked your free access.

I admit that I have likely contributed a healthy dose of misunderstanding in this case, but I believe that Gloria had the right of it on that thread where she said, "However, the attitude with which you convey your message does a lot toward swaying people to your side. Attacking people's talents, questioning everything anyone says about any publisher, and just your general lack of respect for anyone and anything said here, leaves me, at least, aggravated beyond measure, and wanting to be on whatever side you're not. "

Frankly, after going through your posts tonight using the search method I described above, I can't say that I really disagree with anything you've said - merely the way in which you choose to say it.

I do hope that you are able succeed in your cause, but I'm not sure your approach is going to get you through that door. It's really all I ever intended to say.

Good luck to you.

CEW

[marky48]

Try this for an answer: You're a fruit loop. "Arse from a hole in the ground?" Comments like that come from an arshole, but had you not said it, I would have said nothing. What goes around comes around lady. That's true in Nevada or LA or anywhere else where folks have good sense.

[Deejay816]

Don't you see that it is this type of attitude and response that angers people and turns them against you, and ultimately what you claim to be fighting for? You can be so elequent and convincing at times, and then at other times, you are simply mean and spiteful. A "big" man would accept sincere apologies for what they are, not continue to snap at the people who offer them. No one recruits soldiers (this going back to your own analogy) by attacking them before they've enlisted in the "war."

Deejay

[Canada James]

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[James D Macdonald]

And how do you know I didn't mean "aunts" or "babies?"

Because I am reliably informed that you are the King of Spelling.

[marky48]

Boy, now that's some cherry-picked quoting. How about the "thank you, you helped end?" I left previously to that sign off. Then the long diatribe laughing at me and with the. "That York doesn't know his arse from a hole in the ground" that preceded the last entry? You think I'd have come back without that? I have a bridge contract you'd be interested in, it's got a good view. You guys are laughable, and sad.

"your goads and taunts (subjective at best) as followers who would let you lead us and our books to slaughter. Some of us have other agendas to follow."

Ya think?

I was told that some authors there had "made it big." I didn't see any evidence of that. Just the same myth followers, but that is your business. Delusion isn't mine. Your books, like mine, are worthless now. Move on. And did any of you sign the aussies survey on the bewares board? We have 9 against and 2 for PA.

[marky48]

Some of the reluctant patriots were tarred and feathered, not caressed into service; or out of the country as was the case. Read the thread professor. You haven't read the text in chronological order.

Actually, here it is: www.mindsightseries.com/d...1068055251 (http://www.mindsightseries.com/discus/messages/6/2701.html?1068055251)

I think it's fairly self-explanatory.

[Canada James]

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[marky48]

Not in my line of work.

[Claudia]

Marky,
here is the comment that you made reference to in your really darcastic reply of my first time on this board. I am posting it here so that all may see what an arse you really are. I was only funning you and you can't even take what I posted in humor. As you anad now everyone else can see, I was not even talking to you, just making an observation to my friend Aston. I didn't even put the name areshole out there, I simply made a comment about not knowing one from a hole in the ground. Boy what a jerk......

<<Aston,
You are such a card when you are drinking that stuff you cart all over the place. Tis really a shame that some people don't understand humor and often get logic confused with good sense. Go for it man, I fully understand where you are comin' from. Being mistaken for Meiners is really a hoot, had to laugh myself all the way to the back yard on that one, and then being called a plant, fer shur, man!!! Boy this ol' guy York don't know his arse from a hole in the ground, do he???

Some people jus' don't know when to lighten up, man, do they??? They take themselves so seriously, it just blows the socks offa me.

Claudia>>

All I was trying to do was make a humorous remark to the quality of what you were posting and how you were getting everyone upset and slinging stuff around when there really wasn't that good of a reason to do so. And you come over here and start maligning me all over the place. Up till yesterday, I had never even posted here and only did so then because I don't like people to get the wrong information and base opinions on bad info. I really do think that you owe me an apology for the comments you have posted here as to my character and motivations.

Claudia

[Claudia]

I meant sarcastic, not darcastic, in the above post. Sorry for the misspelling, it wasn't really a misspell, just a typo that got missed in the proofing.

Sometimes I hit the wrong key accidently.

Claudia

[Claudia]

Marky,

Perhaps you ight want to argue amongst yourself for a while how "arse from a hole in the ground" can become ARSEHOLE. The two have completely differnet connotations and mean separate things. I did not state that you were an "Arsehole", I stated that you did not "know your arse from a hole in the ground," which to my way of thinking means that you don't know where you are coming from and can't tell the difference between fact and fiction or rumor. Someone else stated the Arsehole wording from another posting and probably you got it mixed up in your head that I did it, however, as you can see from my above direct quote taken from the Mindsight board, you are readily mistaken. That being said, I really do think you owe me an apology.

Claudia

[marky48]

Some have the same problem with "imminent." The transcript is clear for all readers to see, should they want to. The above posts are what I would call a "rant," both here and there.

[Claudia]

A "Rant" you say, boy you haven't even seen me RANT. I don't really think you or anyone else here wants to be party to a real rant coming from me.

And as far as "Imminent" goes, what does that have to do with anything that has been said on either board? There is no impending or immediate danger coming from me or anyone else here or there, so why did that word pop into your mind? And a "Rant", boy you haven't even seen me rant on anything. I don't think that would be something that anyone here would want to have shoved on them, for I can get just as vocal about my stands you must have in some of your past rants to be able to gain the attention that you have from them.

I suppose you think you can justify all of your ill judgments towards others by stating that they don't know as much as you do about whatever it is you are spouting about. However if it were not for your superior attitude and malicious intent to defame anyone who does not think the way you do, I might have really wanted to be your friend, as we share many of the same traits and desires in preservation and historical-genealogical attributes. I, too, am descended from one of the primary families in Beverly, MA and desire to give a historical representation of them through telling of their stories. Much like you did through learning about family history. What I don't understand is your penchant for being adverse to whatever is stated, no matter how right or true for that person it might be. Why come on the offensive and defensive at the same time, no matter who the perceived opponents are. We are not all your enemies, and some of us have many wonderful qualities that you might want to pick up on, should you show an interest in or towards learning about what drives others, as you seem to have shown in regards to your family history and the preservation of the forests and waterways of the northern areas and fish. There are many reasons a person writes, perhaps you might try to look at some of the reasons that drive others before you attack them and their needs.

I can understand your desire for gaining respect from the publishing world and trying to get the attention towards the misinformation and some of the processes of PA, but for some of the people published at PA, that is the only way for them. You would hurt them for your own cause, and to me that seems very selfish. I don't want to hurt them or you or anyone else in the process of saving my book. By whatever I have to do to save it in the long-run. I would think that you would feel that way also, for you went into PA with your eyes wide open, as you stated on the Mindsight Board.

You seem to be a very talented man, I would like to think and hope that you would put that talent and ability to better uses than you are doing on this board. Keeping everyone up in arms is not the only way to get things done. But perhaps it is the only way you know works the way you want it to.

www.authorsden.com/claudi...anlydegraf (http://www.authorsden.com/claudiaturnervanlydegraf)

[marky48]

Nothing works the way I want it to. Welcome to real life 101. I wasn't shown any good qualities. I report what I find. Show a better side, maybe someone will notice, and report that.

[marky48]

I just confirmed a suspicion I had that despite PA's promise to include a TOC in my book, they left it out anyway. What a surprise. I now have direct testimony from one of the three buyers of the book. PA out-and-out lies to all. There is no doubt now.

[James D Macdonald]

Back on 13 October, I posted this:


Shall we put a time limit on the wager? If Ingram doesn't have the $16.95 price listed by Christmas Eve (24 December 2003), Marky wins. If the $16.95 price is listed by Christmas Eve, Canada James wins.

Fair enough?

Here it is, Christmas Eve, and ...

I declare Marky the winner.

[Canada James]

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[DaveKuzminski]

Oh, come on, Canada James. You're supposed to be a creative writer capable of coming up with a more original response than that.

Face it, PublishAmerica is taking advantage of you just like it does every other writer who signs with them. These topics were never started to attack you. These were strictly for the purpose of warning writers of the conditions at PublishAmerica. You willfully injected yourself into the discussion, defended PublishAmerica, and made it into a personal attack on you by attacking others. You defended PublishAmerica at other forums as well, some using the same methods as here.

[James D Macdonald]

Et tu, MacD?

As the guy holding the bets, I couldn't do otherwise. If things had turned out the other way, I'd have posted it -- same place, same time.

[astonwest]

"I've forwarded this link to PA to see if they could offer an explanation as to why the price has yet to change."

Apparently, CJ has figured out things tend to move a little faster in PA-land when they're brought up on this board?? :rollin

Those of us who've had experience with PA and pricing should have laid out our life savings on Marky's side...oh well, lessons learned.

But good luck, CJ, on getting PA to change your price...maybe you're right, and providing the link will help your cause...

Big Daddy West
:hat

[FM St George]

I somehow doubt it... he'll probably be referred to the forum thread where they all brag about how if you BELIEVE in the content of your book that you will be able to sell it at almost double the price of most other books in your genre...

:D

and then, if he persists, they'll just out and out lie and claim that they can't cut their costs to produce said book and darn it, other people are able to sell their books - why not him?

LOL!

I still can't get over the blind loyalty that I see on the PA message boards from the majority of the authors - if you dare to speak up you're immediately reminded of how grateful you should be that PA took you on under their wing and that You Are A Writer!

blech...

[HapiSofi]

<blockquote>Canada James said Et tu, MacD?, and JDM said "As the guy holding the bets, I couldn't do otherwise. If things had turned out the other way, I'd have posted it -- same place, same time."</blockquote>Jim Macdonald's only doing what's proper. The impropriety is questioning his behavior when he's done exactly what he should.

[James D Macdonald]

I didn't see C. James as questioning my behavior, but rather as issuing a half-humorous "Sheesh!" I took it as friendly -- my subsequent comment was for the benefit of those playing along at home who perhaps don't have these hundreds of posts, going back months, memorized.

Just for the record, it's my opinion that C. James is a talented writer.

[rtilryarms]

If I read the threads correctly (that's a hunk o' reading btw), the issue began as a question of PA integrity. It turned personal not too long after the beginning.

Reading info on the PA site, I have to agree that underhanded business practices are at hand if half of what I read is true. There are so many people with dreams being shattered with false promises. I hate that.

Maybe when I am rich and famous I will come back and help like several of you are doing.

I guess as long as there are goats willing, there will always be wolves inviting us to their den. Thanks to the Shepards out there who keep the pack thin.

[Canada James]

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[James D Macdonald]

G'bye, James. It's been nice talking with you.

[aka eraser]

C James never looked really comfy sharing our sandbox. He'll be happier in his own.

[vstrauss]

Soooo....I guess that Canada James has left the building? Any particular reason why?

- Victoria

[qatz]

hmmmm ... as usual i argue with ghosts. did CJ really go through and delete each of his posts, or were they deleted somehow otherwise? just curious.

[qatz]

Well, live and learn. The things you find out grazing through other people's postings. It is not possible to analyze someone on the internet in any comprehensive way, and I only saw a bit of what must have been extended discussions, but the posts left by MY and CJ seemed to indicate such a clouded and tenuous grasp on reality that, well, one wonders.

Too bad that CJ saw fit to remove all posts ... they could have been an object lesson for neophytes like me in not how to treat other people. A little introductory course. "Okay class," MacD could say, "please turn to the Take It Outside board ..."

I do think that people who spend overlong in places like the Cooler (this being a very respectable one in general) are either professionals doing it for a reason; dilletantes with time to kill -- and that French word, however you spell it, is not used here disrespectfully; people from around the world in need of contact like that wonderful young Indian lady under curfew; or possibly injured individuals who need to get a life and come here instead.

It is easy to lose appreciation for the personal hells people carry around with them, or the goals good or bad they may be trying to accomplish, when they are being annoying or gratuitous right in your face. On the other hand, the Net is a very wide but shallow medium, and people must abide their own words and attitudes, there being little else for others to evaluate, really. I guess it's the nature of the beast.

[astonwest]

I was wondering the same thing, myself, Victoria...

Not the fact he left, really......but why he felt the need to edit out every single one of his posts...rather bizarre...

oh well...

Big Daddy West
:hat

[Shrews]

Perhaps he fears banishment by the PA fold.
shrugs.

[CWGranny]

Perhaps someone he admires/believes convinced him he didn't make a good showing here and that it reflected poorly on him?

Gran

[HapiSofi]

Maybe it's dawning on him that PA is everything we've said they are, and he's scribbled all his posts in a fit of despair.

I hope not.

Damn. I wouldn't have thought I'd feel this worried about him.

[Canada James]

James M:
"G'bye, James. It's been nice talking with you."

You still have my email. Keep in touch.

vstrauss:
"Soooo....I guess that Canada James has left the building? Any particular reason why?"

I'm never really gone.

Shrews:
"Perhaps he fears banishment by the PA fold."

Banishment by the PA fold has never been my concern. Why I have not yet been banned is a curiosity of mine. Although most of my messages do get pulled these days (if I ever need a thread to disappear on the PA board I know how to do it).

astonwest:
"Not the fact he left, really......but why he felt the need to edit out every single one of his posts...rather bizarre..."

There was no other way to make people listen. Consider it a curtain call for the Dave and James Show.

Granny:
"Perhaps someone he admires/believes convinced him he didn't make a good showing here and that it reflected poorly on him?"

You shouldn't feel too left out of the bad reflection, Granny.

HapiSofi:
"Maybe it's dawning on him that PA is everything we've said they are, and he's scribbled all his posts in a fit of despair."

No despair. And I wouldn't say that PA is everything you all say they are (they aren't my employer, as has been insinuated) but they aren't everything I had once thought either. They are an outfit that needs work (which, for those of you who have been paying attention, I've actually said over and over again).

"Damn. I wouldn't have thought I'd feel this worried about him."

Awww, does this mean we're ready to start over? Careful, James M. and Jenna made that mistake and now they respect me.

Hey, Jenna, how's this for keeping my New Year's resolution? Do you think I'm still crazy or just so darn brilliant that I just blew your mind? ;)

Canada James

[Dodgem James]

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[HConn]

(This message was left blank)

[LiamJackson]

(This message was left blank)

[aka eraser]

I wish I could have seen them.

(This message was left intact)

[Betty W01]

:rollin

[DaveKuzminski]

Betty, what did you do to earn a superhero ad over your posting?

[DaveKuzminski]

I wonder if James M and Jenna still respect you?

[Dodgem James]

I guess you'll have to ask them.

James