PublishAmerica a vanity press? Who to publish with? [Archive]

ChristinaAshbaugh

02-29-2004, 02:02 AM

I have read a topic on this board about PublishAmerica... what is wrong with it? I know nothing about it except that everybody here says that they will accpet absoutly anything. Please let me know why it is consitered a vanity press.
I am looking for someplace to publish with that does not have charge any fees that also provides a cover. That's what I though PublishAmerica was at first, but now I know that they are a vanity press (I, however, know no details).
I am a busy high school student and I have no time for a paid job. I voulenteer, yes, but I'd much rather do that than any paid job (I voulenteer to tain rescued dogs). My main purpose of publishing my ms. (it is a historical fiction book for children in diary form) is because I loved to read when I was in the target age (8-11) of my story. I can still remember not being able to put down a simple 50 to 100 page book at night, almost falling asleep after midnight every night when I finished the short book. Now I am a Dean Knootz fan, but can still remember the books that encouraged me to read and even to start writing for recration. Now, I'd like to write for publication. I've published about ten poems before in anthologies (FamousPoets, AmericanPoets), but I want to get farther than that. Money is an option in a way. I cannot afford to pay any company to publish my manuscript, but I do not care how low royalities are. I do not want to publish it on the internet, but in a tangrable form in a either a paperback or hardcover book -- either of them work.
If you have any ideas, suggestion, or imput, please repily.

Thank you,
Christina Ashbaugh

Stephenie Hovland

02-29-2004, 04:13 AM

I'll let someone else cover the basics of PublishAmerica and similar presses.
Here are my questions for you, Christina:
Have you tried a "regular" publisher? If not, why not? What are your goals for publishing (ex. to get it bound and covered, to see my work in book form, to get it out to bookstores and libraries, to make it available for others to read)?

Answer some of those questions, and I think others here will be able to offer you advice.

Stephenie

darbyj

02-29-2004, 07:24 AM

Stephenie has some good points. Whether or not PA is a good choice for publishing really depends on what you want out of it.

Although not exactly thrilled with PA at the moment, I don't consider them a traditional vanity press. They don't charge the author to publish. They do design a cover, publish your book, and make it available on the on lines stores at no charge to the author.

However, the prices on the books they publish are rather high, and I've heard mention here that this is to offset the cost that they aren't charging the author. In other words, they don't charge you up front, but they make it hard to sell your book due to the price and no return policy. They tempt you into buying your own book in hopes of selling it (although they don't hold a gun to your head) and, I suppose in many cases, they make up for not charging the author up front by actually selling to the author. That author may be able to sell their books or, like me, end up with a box of books on his or her front porch.

I and other PA authors, have had a very difficult time getting bookstores to stock their books. Their website states (on their facts and figures page) that "everyday, authors are invited to do signings...". To me the word "invited" implies that the bookstores are initiating the signings, but from my own experience and most everything I've read on their boards, a PA author needs to practically beg a bookstore owner for a signing. This is but one example of PA "seeming" to appear one thing, but not actually being so.

You are in high school, so there is still a lot of time for you to improve your craft. If you haven't queried and sent manuscripts, do so. If you don't hear back or if you are rejected, this doesn't mean the end of your writing career. It more than likely means you need to improve your writing. Don't take it as an insult. Improve. You can always go with PA or some other non-traditional publisher, but be warned. Bookstore owners, publishers, many reviewers, and most of the literary world don't take PA seriously. It may have it's day in the future, but that day is not today.

Lisa

James D Macdonald

02-29-2004, 07:56 AM

Christina, to understand why PA may be a bad choice for you, you might try these resources:

At <a href="http://pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=190.t opic&start=1&stop=20" target="_new">Absolute Write</a>

At <a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002692.html#002692" target="_new">Making Light</a>

At <a href="http://scrivenerserror.blogspot.com/2003_07_01_scrivenerserror_archive.html#1059577271 53045899" target="_new">Scrivener's Error</a>

At <a href="http://www.sfwa.org/Beware/subsidypublishers.html" target="_new">SFWA</a>

...................

Have you considered traditional publishing? In traditional publishing the publisher pays all costs, including paying you a substantial advance.

HapiSofi

03-01-2004, 02:20 AM

Christina, PA is a newfangled non-traditional vanity publisher, but they're a vanity publisher just the same. You can find a good explanation of the kind of operation they are by clicking here (http://www.nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002692.html).

If you don't have a lot of money, there's nothing PA can do for you. They don't do much for people who do have money, either; but in their case it takes a little longer for that to become apparent.

Here's a great truth I picked up off another writing website: "The road to easy publication is paved with your money."

It's wonderful that you love books and writing. You should go on loving them. If you turn out to be a publishable writer, the kind that gets paid for their books by a real publishing house, that'll be great too; but if you do what you love, and do it for its own sake, you'll be a winner no matter what happens.

HConn

03-01-2004, 03:47 AM

Jim, about that Making Light thread...

What's the latest on April Fields? Did she find a traditional publisher?

James D Macdonald

03-01-2004, 05:10 AM

April was still looking for a traditional publisher, last I heard. I'm sure she'll get one.

qatz

03-01-2004, 08:51 AM

Christina, PA is pretty bad news for a lot of writers. Check out what the others have told you, and look at Jim's links. Be careful!

ChristinaAshbaugh

03-03-2004, 10:28 AM

My main goal is to have my book published and available in book stores, the internet (ie. Amazon or smaller markets), and (if possible) for it to be in a few libraries. I am aming higher than I know I will get, but it is something to try.

After reading that you must purchase the remaining stock/books -- 49 of them -- I am definatly not going to use PublishAmerica. I cannot afford anything extra right now and there is no way I could afford that.

Does anybody know of any other triditional publishers that would consiter publishing my book? I am especially inerested in publishers that specialize in children's books.

Christina Ashbaugh

dgkgoldberg

03-03-2004, 10:32 AM

Why do you think that you are aiming higher than you will get?

You are not asking for much.

James D Macdonald

03-03-2004, 11:56 AM

Christina, write your book.

Then get a copy of Writer's Market or Literary Marketplace, and try to sell it.

Start at the very top, the best markets.

Don't bother with publishers whose books you can't find in your local bookstore.

(Go to your local bookstore. Find books similar to yours. Look on the copyright page to see who published them ... you'll find the publisher's address there. Write to that publisher with a self-addressed stamped envelope asking for their guidelines. Follow the guidelines explicitly.)

More basics on writing here: <a href="http://www.sfwa.org/writing/" target="_new">SFWA</a> and <a href="http://fmwriters.com/" target="_new">Forward Motion</a>.

For your specific interests: <a href="http://www.scbwi.org/" target="_new">Society of Children's Book Writers and Illustrators</a>

Remember: Money Flows Toward the Author. Any time an agent or a publisher asks you to write them a check, you're most likely in the presence of a scammer.

qatz

03-03-2004, 01:07 PM

yah!

darbyj

03-03-2004, 05:53 PM

Christina,

"After reading that you must purchase the remaining stock/books -- 49 of them -- I am definatly not going to use PublishAmerica. I cannot afford anything extra right now and there is no way I could afford that."

Just be aware that although this practice of making authors buy stock that is not there is unethical, this apparently happens when an author wants to get out of their contract. It's not something an author who is thrilled with PA has to do.

If you just want to publish with PA and don't care if your book sells, it won't cost you anything. But I'm not sure why you would want to start at the bottom like that, unless writing for you is more of a hobby than a career.

Lisa

James D Macdonald

03-03-2004, 10:04 PM

If all you want is two copies of your own book (at a cost of $14.50 each -- you have to pay for your own copyright registration), PA is probably the way to go.

Sales beyond that are whatever you can hassle your family and friends into buying.

The primary market for PA books is the authors themselves. PA offers a 30% discount on bulk sales -- on books whose cover prices they've jacked up 30%. In other words, the authors are put under heavy pressure to buy their own books at full market price. That's a vanity press.

HConn

03-04-2004, 09:23 AM

Before you look up books in a bookstore that are like yours, I think you should look at the books in your home that are like yours. The ones you really love.

Then check them out in the books James recommended, and choose the best and best-paying ones.

rtilryarms

03-04-2004, 08:39 PM

This is wonderful information and great help. I know I said it before but:

A resounding thank you

Once again I remain
Sincerely;

RT

HapiSofi

03-07-2004, 08:17 AM

Darbyj, given that (1.) PA's using POD technology, which means they should never have more than a few copies of "remaining stock" in the first place, and (2.) by report, their "remaining stock" almost always turns out to be 49 copies, which is simply impossible, I wouldn't hesitate to call them unethical.

What kind of impossible is that? It's impossible that it should so frequently be 49 copies. It's impossible that a POD publisher should have that many printed-and-bound copies of a title sitting around gathering dust. And it's incredible that a company that intermittently has trouble filling its authors' orders for a half-dozen or a dozen copies should so consistently turn out to have used hard-to-get press time at Lightning to randomly print up lots of copies of some book in advance of any orders for it coming in.

You know what real publishing companies do when they revert a book? They reserve the right to finish selling off howevermany copies they already have printed and sitting in the warehouse. That's all. The author doesn't have to buy anything. They give the rights back for free. And these are companies that have actually put significant money into making the book -- not just paying the author's advance, but doing the editing, design, production, promotion, conventional printing, and warehousing.

By comparison, PA's investment in the book is as close to zero as they can possibly make it, and their default printing technology only produces a handful of copies at a time. Nevertheless, they insist that the departing author buy 49 copies.

It's just a shakedown. They're just scum.

. . .

I'll bet I know why it's 49 copies. You understand POD tech, right? You can run off a few copies as needed, but the copies are all expensive, and no matter how many you print, they never get any cheaper. Another way to make books, the way the conventional publishing houses do it, is to go to big printing houses that use big offset web presses. There's a much higher minimum number of copies, but the cost per copy is much lower. You with me so far? Okay, there's a third method that falls between those two: short-run books. It's what gets used to make advance bound galleys, if you've ever seen those. If you're running off three or four copies it costs as much or more per copy than POD, but its per-copy cost goes down as quantities go up.

Most outfits that do short-run books -- here's a typical example (http://www.countrypressinc.com/) -- will handle runs of 10 - 1,000 copies, but their good price breaks start kicking in around 25 - 50 copies, at which point they're significantly cheaper than POD.

Let me reiterate a point I made earlier: PA intermittently has trouble filling their authors' modest book orders in any reasonable amount of time. If the copies the authors are forced to buy come in lots of 49, they're not being printed by Lightning (or they are, but Lightning's using different technology than it uses for its POD books). I'll bet you anything that what PA is doing, when it becomes clear that one of their authors is determined to break with them, is go to a short-run printer and have fifty copies made up. I expect they're keeping one copy for their records.

The rest of the copies they require the author to buy, at a price that's profitable for them when the book's printed by Lightning, which means that at short-run per-unit rates it's going to be very profitable indeed. There's nothing legit about it. It's just one last parting gouge.

HapiSofi

03-10-2004, 10:43 AM

Another post full of the down-and-dirty mechanics of publishing that's killed the conversation in which I posted it.

emeraldcite

03-10-2004, 11:25 AM

nah, this thread was started by someone who didn't join in on the existing (large) thread on PA. most are on that one. this is a newbie and didn't read the the post-it at the top of the bewares.

good info. i enjoyed it.

HapiSofi

03-11-2004, 01:18 AM

Thank you. I feel less guilty now.

mogie

03-11-2004, 07:08 AM

Hapisofi,

You are good!

Fascinating stuff you posted on short-run versus lightening press/POD.

All this information, (including the technical mumbo-jumbo) people share on the boards will make for better informed writers. Knowledge is power.

Good job.

James D Macdonald

03-22-2004, 11:06 PM

Hey Dave! You're famous (again)!

<a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9459.htm" target="_new">www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9459.htm</a>

dgkgoldberg

03-23-2004, 12:10 AM

It seems like that thread has already been pulled.

DaveKuzminski

03-23-2004, 12:36 AM

I happened to catch sight of that before it disappeared while looking for something else. I went on before thinking that a copy might be useful knowing that PA's penchant for removing things has no real rhyme or reason. Sure enough, it was gone already in that space of a few seconds. However, I looked in the Internet cache on my computer and there it was, so I copied that. By the way, why did I write that institution? Simple. Mr. Thompson stated in his original posting earlier about getting that position and how he could tell others about how to be published with PA. I felt the institution deserved to know more about their instructor's publisher. Do I feel any remorse? Not in the least, considering that I might have saved several writers from an uninformed decision.

Here is what PA removed shortly after I viewed it. I do not know if any other posts were added to it before they removed it.

Jthompson

3/22/2004
10:49:06
Subject: Angry in Georgia?

Message:
I have an opportunity to teach a class at Emory University in Atanta in May. I wanted everybody to read this negative email that was sent to Emory University from individual attacking Publish America!

Mr. Thompson -

I have received the following email and I would like to know your response.

I just heard that you have hired an individual to teach a course in Creative Writing/Publishing. Although I do not know the qualifications for that individual, I do know that your school could be placing itself into the middle of a very nasty controversy in that the individual, Mr. Julius Thompson, has a book published by PublishAmerica. The controversy that your school might be embroiled within, should Mr. Thompson recommend his publisher to class participants, consists of a publisher who does not honor all their contracts, treads in the gray area when it comes to their claims, and urges its authors to purchase their books since it cannot get its books into bookstores. At most, out of over 4,000 authors it has published, only one or two books have actually managed to get into any bookstores as a result of the publisher's marketing. This is also a publisher that deliberately conducts smear campaigns against those who criticize its actions and bans its own authors from its own forum should they speak out. There are numerous other allegations that will come to light if your department does an Internet search on PublishAmerica.

Cordially,
Dave Kuzminski, Editor
Preditors & Editors (tm)

When I agreed to run the course you proposed, I was, and am still expecting that your class will be discussing the process for preparing works for publication in general terms rather than promoting any specific route to publication. I also expect that you would not be making guarantee to any students.

I would like to hear your comments on these matters.

Sincerely
Byrd Perkerson
Assistant Director

The Herndons

3/22/2004
10:57:45

RE: Angry in Georgia?

Message:
That is so infuriating!! Hopefully PA sees this and addresses Mr. Kuzminski accordingly.

Jthompson: perhaps you can reseach the interference that Mr. Kuzminki has created for you. Your appointment to teach has nothing to do with PA, and vice versa. It is none of Kuzminski's business where you work, and it is not an employer's business to know where you were published.

There's a lot of stomping going on here on our side for you! Some people give a whole new meaning to the term 'bashing.'

Best of luck with your teaching gig...and to hell with the Kuzminki's of the world!

S. Bond Herndon
Heather Hyde-Herndon
"Into the Blue"

DennisB

3/22/2004
11:29:39

RE: Angry in Georgia?

Message:
I wonder if Mr. Kuzminski is trying his best to be a consumer advocate in the ilk of Ralph Nader. Either he is or he has a lot of pent up hatred for PA and its many satisfied authors for some reason of his own design and manufacture. He should really watch his blood pressure; that kind of emotional and stress levels are sure tickets to heart problems. I would think that kind of activism could be used in a more constructive and positive manner.

Mr. Thompson, I know you must be feeling personally attacked because that is what this butt-in-ski has done. How dare he elevate himself to such a pontifical state as to insert himself into your employee/employer agreements unsolicited!

Dennis
A Meeting in the Air
www.linden-beaudry.ws

DaveKuzminski

03-23-2004, 12:47 AM

It just occurred to me why PA removed that post. It mentions all their faults. If they leave it there, they have to answer those should any of their authors ask and we know they don't want their authors bringing up embarrassing questions they can't answer without lying.

Of course, by removing it, they proved that my allegations are true, not that I and many others didn't already know that.

BlueMunky

03-24-2004, 08:18 PM

I just realized this last night, and I checked it this morning, and sure enough, it is true. Check out www.overture.com. They are the company which supplies tageted advertising for sites like altavista and msn. They have a tool where you can search for the current bids on specific search terms. If you look up "publish your book", the third highest bid you will find is from PublishAmerica. Now, the first time I noticed this (when searching on Altavista), it didn't seem all that strange to me, but now it does. The only publishing companies that advertise publishing services through overture (or, indeed, that I have seen anywhere else) are vanity presses in the traditional or POD world... Interesting...

DaveKuzminski

03-24-2004, 08:22 PM

The sad thing is that companies that handle advertising for that that prey upon people aren't treated as co-conspirators by the law.

James D Macdonald

03-24-2004, 09:47 PM

So where's PA getting their money to buy this advertising? And who is the advertising targetting?

Well, it's targetting hopeful authors.

Who's paying the bills? Those same hopeful authors... it sure isn't general readers. (If it was general readers I could walk down to my local bookstore and find PA books on the shelves. With the number of titles PA has published and has at least nominally in print I should find hundreds on the shelves.)

BlueMunky

03-24-2004, 09:56 PM

Dave -
Well, in terms of the advertisers themselves, I don't think they are at fault. They are offering a service which allows targeted advertising. It's annoying, but it's tantamount to junk mail (much closer, in fact, than spam, I believe). Anyway, I completely believe that advertising is valid. What irks me is that I never caught this before.

James -
I would like to know that as well. Why is it that there is essentially no advertising for the books for sale, and yet they can find the money to advertise and pull more people into what seems like an already bloated company?

But...
I digress. I've decided (as if it matters to anyone else what I think) that Dave and Victoria (who may or may not still read around here) are right. PA is a vanity/POD publisher with a twist, and this, for me, just cements that notion.

DaveKuzminski

03-24-2004, 10:52 PM

Well, I'm looking at it in what I believe is a similar view to that which called the auditors and bankers to account for their failure to properly audit some corporations that were ripping off the public in recent scandals. In other words, I feel that there should be more responsibility and accountability for certain actions because some professions, by their nature, owe a greater duty to society. I believe that advertising by nature of its widespread use in targeting products to wide sectors of society should be obligated to maintain higher standards of conduct and accountability.

Even the FCC requires ads contain only truth, but they can't monitor every single ad in every media form because there simply aren't enough people in that agency to do so. By making the advertising industry more liable, they'll have more incentive to police themselves and limit the kinds of ads they're willing to place. That might not stop the scammers, but it will put a significant dent in their operations by limiting their access to victims.

BlueMunky

03-24-2004, 10:59 PM

The exact ad:

Publish America - Publish a Book
At Publish America, we treat our authors the old-fashioned way - we pay them. We offer quality book publishing services and resources for new authors. Submit your manuscript today.
www.publishamerica.com

Now, this isn't to say that you aren't right in your point (because I believe you are), but the ad manages the same amount of ambiguity (quality is a subjective term, and otherwise they do offer publishing services and resources, albeit not very good ones). All I was trying to point out is that they are advertising like a POD/Vanity press outfit.

DaveKuzminski

03-24-2004, 11:41 PM

I quite agree with you. The only reason they've succeeded so far is because of that ambiguity. They might be within the letter of the law, but not within the spirit of its intent.

Basically, I'm just advocating more self-policing by advertising for such cases since that would reduce the number of victims.

BlueMunky

03-25-2004, 12:04 AM

In theory, I agree, but in practice I think they would run into the same problem as the FCC: too many ads, not enough people. On another topic, did you get the email I sent you about GOM publishing?

DaveKuzminski

03-25-2004, 12:32 AM

I believe I have. I've been transferring all my files to a new computer after noticing that my old faithful was on its last legs. Everything should be back on schedule within a week. Then I'll be posting a lot more on P&E.

Dodgem James

03-30-2004, 01:41 PM

"Hapisofi,

You are good!

Fascinating stuff you posted on short-run versus lightening press/POD.

All this information, (including the technical mumbo-jumbo) people share on the boards will make for better informed writers. Knowledge is power.

Good job."

Of course, what HapiSofi has stated is speculation and not fact. Let's remember that. I could speculate that HapiSofi is really somebody's cat who has strangely learned how to type. Just because one or two individuals like that idea doesn't make it fact.

Dave:

"Do I feel any remorse? Not in the least, considering that I might have saved several writers from an uninformed decision."

Way to go Dave! You certainly can't hurt the company but you just might take 'em down one author at a time!

And people wondered why I wouldn't give you the name of my agent.

DJ

DaveKuzminski

03-31-2004, 01:53 AM

Dodgem James, why don't you just find the first time that individual posted about getting the position teaching at Emory. As I recall, he stated then that he could teach the writers how to get published with PublishAmerica. However, the course is how to prepare for publication with any company, not just one specific publisher. That is what I pointed out to the employer who then communicated with the individual to remind him that his position was for the purpose of teaching and not acting as a PublishAmerica commercial. I didn't attack the individual's qualifications. In fact, I pointed out that I didn't know what those were and that those weren't what I was questioning. I didn't ask that he be removed from his position, either. I merely made them aware that PublishAmerica is considered quite controversial, which it is.

And Dodgem, don't worry about me attacking their authors. You wouldn't believe the volume of information that's been given to me about some of what goes on behind the scenes. Based upon what I've read, PublishAmerica will eventually implode on their own. Unfortunately, that is what will hurt many authors.

Now that we've covered that, shouldn't you be working on that rewrite your agent wants?

FM St George

03-31-2004, 03:44 AM

actually, from an integrity POV the aforementioned "teacher" was putting himself in a very bad spot by stating publically that he would be steering his students towards PublishAmerica - I'm not sure about anyone else, but I get nervous when anyone in a position of authority basically begins to preach one POV over the other. And in this case pointing many students to PA would have certainly overstepped the bounds of common sense, to say nothing of his responsibility as a "teacher".

heck, if he were an editor for Random House and pointed everyone to RH I'd have the same position - he's supposed to be neutral, not scrounging through his class for possible profitable works for his company.

Dodgem James

03-31-2004, 12:13 PM

"I didn't attack the individual's qualifications. In fact, I pointed out that I didn't know what those were and that those weren't what I was questioning. I didn't ask that he be removed from his position, either. I merely made them aware that PublishAmerica is considered quite controversial, which it is."

Dave, once again I see through you. You saw a PA author making something of his publishing credit and took it upon yourself to discredit him. It astounds me how low you will sink. But it astounds me more how readily believe your spin on things.
It's not your job to ensure the profs at any university are doing the job they are hired to do. That's between the prof and the university.

The cult marches on.

"And Dodgem, don't worry about me attacking their authors."

I don't worry about you, Dave. You're as benign now as you were when I left.

"Now that we've covered that, shouldn't you be working on that rewrite your agent wants?"

I'm busy with more than my rewrites. (Green doesn't look good on you.) I only stopped by to make sure Anne didn't need me. If you need me you can email me through my website.

DJ

DaveKuzminski

03-31-2004, 07:25 PM

Interesting how you chose to divert my questions and remarks by trying to make it appear than I'm envious of whatever success you have. Excuse me, but I believe my books have been selling better than yours. Otherwise, you'd be doing your best to point that out.

As far as your "Bye Dave", I really don't believe you. We all know why, too. You simply aren't reliable. You've also been caught in too many lies.

FM St George

04-01-2004, 02:35 AM

"It's not your job to ensure the profs at any university are doing the job they are hired to do. That's between the prof and the university."

at first this statement seems pretty darned logical, but then when you look a bit futher... well, it tends to have problems along the way.

did this "teacher" tell the university that he would be pushing PA to them as the primary route to be published? If he didn't tell them (and I find it most unlikely that he would) then going onto a PA board and announcing that he would be graduating an entire class to PA's publishing mavens is, at least, a giant display of a lack of maturity when dealing with professionals in the teaching industry. It would be like myself getting a job at a Jewish university but announcing on a Catholic BBS that I would be seeking converts to Catholicism in my class.

aside from being unprofessional, it would also leave the university open to a variety of legal issues in the long run - what if a person graduates from the class and goes with PA, only to charge them with a lawsuit later on due to fraud? Is the teacher/university liable since it was encouraged by the teacher? Is the university now condoning their teachers to "push" their personal agendas and to point students to causes they find worthy?

there would not have been anything to this if the "teacher" had kept his mouth shut and not announced it on the PA board with all the flair of a cultist announcing his newest set of inductees. Instead, he wanted to score points with the other authors and illustrated why he should NOT be teaching anyone anything at this time, given his attitude and his lack of responsible teaching skill in this area.

as usual, jmo - ymmv...

Dodgem James

04-04-2004, 09:18 AM

Dodgem Dave,
I answered your questions. You just don't like my answers.
And I didn't say I was leaving for good, I said I'm busy these days. When I have the time I'll stop by to remind you that I still see through you even if I'm the only one brave enough to stand up to you.
I'm not in your cult, Dave.

As for my how things are going, check out my website sometime. I know you still have the link. You can see how a writer spends his time and maybe your next book won't be printed on .PD paper.

And I still see you like to divert the spotlight by accusing me of the things of which you are guilty. Nice ploy, it works well on your Preordains.

FM-
Better hope Dave doesn't feel you might not be fulfilling your contracts at work. I'd hate for him to have to write your employer a letter!
It's none of Dave's business what transpires between an employer and an employee. He is not the world police keeping everyone in check!

Consider this: Anne teaches writing workshops yet she has no teaching credentials. Are we saying that all it takes to be a teacher is the ability to perform well in your craft, and those with a degree in education are no more qualified than those without? Maybe Dave should write letters to Anne's workshops to the extent of "Y'know, she may be a successful author, but she has no teaching credentials and she may steer literary geniuses away from the genre they are skilled at and into scifi."

How far do you let Dave go before you stop and think, "Hey, this guy may decide that *I'm* in his way too..." Or is it okay for him to do what he pleases so long as it isn't you're career he's (trying to) hurting?

DJ

DaveKuzminski

04-04-2004, 09:54 PM

Dodgem James, you do not honor the same kinds of requests made by you. I expect you to edit your comments to reflect my proper name. You know what the alternative is.

So, your statement about leaving is as solid as your other statements, many of which you erased? It's good to know that we can depend upon you to live up to what you say. In many societies, people who don't do what they say they will are considered less than honest. If you truly had more sense, you'd recognize that I'm not running a cult. This isn't my forum and I don't make the rules here. You've also a strange way of stating that you're the only one who stands up to me. Evidently, you missed reading many of the comments made by others who felt I was going too far in my statements toward you. Of course, you convinced some of them that I was right.

Well, to tell the truth, I actually don't have your website marked in my favorites within my browser. I don't even have your URL written down anywhere. If you really want me to visit, you'll have to list that information.

I have to admit, it's a nice touch, but much too late, for you to accuse me of diverting questions as you do. The only real chance you have of even making that appear to be true would be to do back and erase all your comments made since your last erasure. Then we can call you Dodgem James v3.

As to my letter to someone else's employer, it's apparent that you, Dodgem James, have no ethics. You simply don't see what was wrong in the first place. I'd hate to think that you might be the only person to overhear plans for a robbery. Using your logic, it would be wrong to notify anyone that a robbery might take place because that is basically what would have occurred in that instance. I encountered that individual's posting where he boasted that he'd be able to set people right about the best way to get published being with his publisher. That, Dodgem James, is robbery of the hopes and dreams for many of those students he was being entrusted to teach according to what the course called for. The course was Preparation for Publishing, not Preparation for PublishAmerica Publishing. Of course, the only people bothered by what I did are you and those at PublishAmerica. That just goes to show how poorly you value morals and ethics which I find strange for someone who claims to be otherwise.

Dodgem James

04-13-2004, 11:21 AM

Dodgem Dave,

It's scary that anyone takes you seriously at all (paid markets, national distribution).

Oh, and here's the link. I have another article to write and will be busy for the next while.

James

*** website link taken out due to the volume of hate mail hitting my guestbook. Teens visit my site people. Have some respect. ***

Dodgem James

04-13-2004, 03:36 PM

"Using your logic, it would be wrong to notify anyone that a robbery might take place because that is basically what would have occurred in that instance."

First of all any lawyer or police agency will tell you that a crime has not taken place until the robbery has occurred. If you "overhear" that a robbery "might" take place you have the right to warn the persons who are about to be robbed, what you don't have the right to do is to take matters into your own hands and hurt the people that "might" do the robbery.

Now, keeping on track of what you actually did, I still maintain that you did not do what was best for that University or its students. You saw an opportunity to hurt PublishAmerica the only way you can - by hurting its authors.
Did you attempt to contact the author involved and suggest that he not run the course as a "get published by PA" course?
No you did not. Why? Because you may have found out that the message board thread was not actually his lesson plan and then you wouldn't have had the chance to attack PA the only way you have left - by attacking its authors.

You see Dave, if I overheard that a serious offence was about to take place I'd make sure my information was correct first *then* I'd see what my options were in avoiding that crime. You miss that key step "A" *everytime* and jump right to the "destroy the career of that man who dares call himself an author". You've tried this with me (remember when you claimed on this message board that I was buying my own books and selling them cheaper off my website only to find out later that had you investigated a little further you would have found out you were wrong? If only that was the only time).
Your options were simple:
(A) butt out since it isn't your duty to tell the University how to run its institution
(B) Email the author and *politely* suggest he gear his course as a general guide to publication
(C) Jump the gun and hope all your information was correct (this time) and go straight for the career bust

Lucky for him the University undoubtedly did a Google on you and came to the same conclusion that I have. You do far too little research and base your conclusions more on personal bias than fact and therefore P&E can be taken no more seriously than any entertainment rag on your grocery store shelf.

"In many societies, people who don't do what they say they will are considered less than honest."

We're human. In this society we call it a "change of heart".

"Evidently, you missed reading many of the comments made by others who felt I was going too far in my statements toward you. Of course, you convinced some of them that I was right."

When you can get away with calling me a bigot for being a Christian in an open forum and not one person says anything to you about it ... give me the links where people openly posted against you for me. And remember, if you can't you'll make yourself out to be a liar.

James

DaveKuzminski

04-13-2004, 06:46 PM

The crime would be conspiracy to commit a crime. Whether you realize it or not, it's also illegal to plan a crime. Consequently, your suggestion that a crime had not been committed is wrong.

Undoubtedly? Prove it. Otherwise, it's just another of your false claims.

I didn't call anyone a bigot for being a Christian. Check my words carefully. I stated that one individual was a bigot because his actions don't match his words. Instead, true to form, Dodgem James has tried to pin the label of religious persecution to his chest in order to divert attention from what was really stated.

Lastly, do your own research. You've frequented this board long enough to know where those remarks are to be found. They're right beside some of the remarks you made and deleted. You're just bothered that no one joined you in a lynch mob. After all, you're the only individual calling out for others to censor me. Maybe you've failed to notice this, but I haven't asked anyone else to pile on top of you.

Dodgem James

04-16-2004, 10:54 AM

"The crime would be conspiracy to commit a crime."

Bragging about how you "could" do something is not the same as plotting to do it. I read the post and once again you are manipulating facts to suit your heinous agenda.

"Undoubtedly? Prove it. Otherwise, it's just another of your false claims."

Are you saying that you never accused me of buying my book and selling it cheaper on my website? careful Dodgem Dave, either way you're making yourself a liar.

"I didn't call anyone a bigot for being a Christian. Check my words carefully."

Here's what Dave wrote:
"Since you want to bring religion into the fray, let's ask how moral you are. Have you helped your fellow humans? Do you avoid telling lies that would harm others? Do you offer assistance to those in need? OR DO YOU MERELY WALK AROUND LIKE A BIGOT TELLING OTHERS THEY'RE GOING TO HELL?
No, the truth is that you're a bigot and a hypocrite who resorts to religion when his logic reveals weakness in his side of a discussion. You can't even stay on topic when you argue. "

You see, Dave, you didn't simply say I was a "bad Christian" for not living my life by your example, you called me someone who walks around like a bigot telling others they're going to hell. Then you went so far as to write "...the truth is that YOU'RE A BIGOT..." (Uh oh! Proof Dave lies!) Or, if you didn't mean I was a bigot for being Christian, then what am I a bigot for exactly? If I'm a liar, or unhelpful, or I avoid assisting others I'm pretty sure those things aren't bigotry. No, you called me a bigot for having Bible based Christian beliefs which, my good buddy, is the same as called Christians bigots.

Now I can see how someone might see it your way after you offer one of your reinterpretations and suggest they don't have the "expertise" to understand the statement without your knowledgeable twisting, but for us Bible believing Christians who do believe that JC is the only way to salvation it sounds like you're calling us bigots.

And by the way: I do help my fellow humans, I don't tell people lies that could cause them harm, I offer assistance to others and yes I do walk around like a CHRISTIAN telling others they need Jesus.

You, Dave, are a Pharisee not a messiah.

Anything else you need me to prove you wrong about today?

DJ

reph

04-16-2004, 11:15 AM

Jenna's new rule for these two guys isn't working. Is compliance optional?

Dodgem James

04-16-2004, 11:28 AM

"Jenna's new rule for these two guys isn't working. Is compliance optional?"

My apologies. I didn't see the "new rule" until now.

Consider compliance starting .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............................................ now.

DJ

sweetmags2mi

05-16-2004, 10:44 AM

No, Publish America is not a Vanity Press where you pay for your book to be published. In fact, you sign a contract and recieve royalities for your work. I am an author, and one of my books is in the process of getting published and I can let you know more as it comes along. I do know, that it does not say that they accept anything.

:head

PianoTuna

05-16-2004, 11:31 AM

Sweetmags, do some reading first.

emeraldcite

05-16-2004, 11:52 AM

sweet, spend some time reading all the PA threads. You'll get a better idea of the whole ordeal. there is a lot that you're missing.

FM St George

05-17-2004, 12:03 AM

too late - she's already been taken once by 1stBooks and is now falling into the PAvidian trap.

sorry to hear it...

James D Macdonald

05-17-2004, 12:40 AM

Maggie, what do you call a press whose business plan is to sell books to their own authors at inflated prices?

PA, as we know, doesn't have a sales force, doesn't publish a catalog, doesn't take returns, and offers a horrible discount via distributors. From this we know that they don't have "selling to the general public via bookstores" as part of their marketing plan. Nor do they advertise their books and authors other than on their own web page. They don't send out advance review copies to the major reviewers. They aren't cataloged by the Library of Congress.

All that adds up to a vanity press.

Look: You spent $30 for your copyright. You got a $1 advance. You'll get two "free" copies. That works out to $14.50 per book that you've already paid, without even counting the value of the list of friends and family that you're asked to provide.

I know that PA seems to promise bookstore sales, but they don't, actually. Look at what they really say, rather than what you wish they'd said.

Or ... prove it for yourself. Go to Amazon and find PA's top fifteen best sellers. Take PA's new release list from this month. Go to your local Barnes & Noble and look on the shelves for any of those books. You should find multiple copies. I'm betting that you'll find none.

If it happens that you do find a PA book on the shelf, I'll bet that the author lives within 25 miles of the store.

Okay, now, try the same experiment with a traditional press that releases between three and four hundred books per month (to keep it on the same scale as PA). Lots of books, right? Multiple copies of multiple titles?

That's the difference.

<hr>

[Later addition]

Not a vanity press, you say? Look at this message from the PA messageboard:

<blockquote>
I am not on the Independent imprint. But, I want to be.
My book, The Winter Moon, was released in March. I just sent in my fifth order for fifty more books. I am going to make that goal of 500. Then I hope I get consideration.
</blockquote>

That poor fellow just spent around $3,500 buying his own books. By the time he gets up to that famous 500, he'll have laid down about $7K. Still no guarantee that he'll go into the Independence Books program (which by itself isn't anything to write home about), only that he'll be "considered" for it.

My heart goes out to him.

FM St George

05-17-2004, 10:18 PM

the problem is that the very definition changes almost hourly.

first, it's NOT just that you sell 500 books... from another section of the message board:

"**In relation to Independence Imprint, we were informed that this label was primarily for those authors whose work relates to the ideal of PA's mission to put out works in which the author's represent individuals overcoming adversity in life."

wow... can that be any more vague?

in other words, it's not that you sold 500 books that'll get you in - it's 500 books AND PA deciding that you've fulfilled this vague definition of what they want to consider for this imprint. There's no guarantee of anything once you sell 500. Heck, in other posts there's a discrepancy of whether the 500 have to be bookstore sales or ones you sold yourself. If it's bookstore sales, then you're fried from the start.

to say nothing of then attempting to convince bookstores that they are returnable (have yet to see one author succeed in that) and then working again to sell more at the inflated prices.

the label is just a sham to encourage authors to buy more and more of their own books to reach a goal that is then moved even further out of reach.