Interesting Statistic

ghost · Feb 22, 2007

So I was at a networking event the other night and heard a very interesting statistic.

In the english speaking world there are only 37 novelists who make a comfortable living as writers. When they mean comfortable they're talking about being able to afford a home, car, etc.

Most of the others are either living in small flats or eating the gunk off of spoons to get by. haha

alleycat · Feb 22, 2007

I think I can count 37 just in the US off the top of my head.

ghost · Feb 22, 2007

You're doing better than me. I can only think of four or five.

alleycat · Feb 22, 2007

Here's five for the list . . . King, Grisham, Cornwell, Mary Higgins Clark, James Patterson . . .

ghost · Feb 22, 2007

I had King on my list Danielle Steel, Nora Roberts, JK Rowling, Terry Pratchet.

alleycat · Feb 22, 2007

Evanovich, Koontz, Turow, Sparks, P.D. James . . .

FergieC · Feb 22, 2007

I read that the average amount of money Scottish novelists make from writing itself - and we have JK Rowling, Alexander McCall Smith and Ian Rankin, so I guess they're included in the "average" - is around £4,000. Assuming those international bestsellers are included in the figures, that means the vast majority are making considerably less than that.

Of course, there are ways to make money around writing – talks, workshops, teaching etc - if you're successful enough. But writing itself certainly isn't something you'd do for the money.

Another interesting point that I heard a relatively successful author mention is that, in order to get your books into shops, they have to be very heavily discounted. The chains can't compete with the supermarkets otherwise, and book clubs are even worse. So the ironic thing is that if you get your books into Waterstones 3 for 2, or into book clubs (which you need to do for them to sell well) your royalty check is likely to be meagre because the discounts have been so high. This particular writer was on cloud 9 because he'd sold thousands of copies through a book club, but when the royalty check arrived it was about £45 becuase there was no profit on those sales. It was one of the very big, traditional publishers too (Penguin, I think....)

Rich · Feb 22, 2007

I think somebody is playing with the stats. There are hundreds of well-fed novelist. I'll bet that the stats didn't cover journalist/novelist, lawyers, college profs., etc. Who could survive on either their 8 to 5 job or their novels.

alleycat · Feb 22, 2007

McMillian, Follet, Sheldon, Clancy, Leonard, Updike, Dan Brown Ludlum, Rice, Waller . . .

I got twenty without breathing hard. And at five in the morning when my brain is barely working.

FergieC · Feb 22, 2007

I'll bet that the stats didn't cover journalist/novelist, lawyers, college profs., etc. Who could survive on either their 8 to 5 job or their novels.

Well no, but I think the point is that not many people can survive by writing alone. Dose it matter whether the day job that pays the bills is a college professor or a gas pump attendant?

The point is simply that very, very few people make a living out of writing alone, which is true, and anyone who doean't realise that probably should, before spending ten years or whatever trying to become a published writer in the hope of making a living out of it.

FergieC · Feb 22, 2007

The issue I'd take with these particular statistics, the only 37 one is who defined living comfortably and how did they define it? It's not exactly scientific, is it? I'd rather have straight figures.

alleycat · Feb 22, 2007

Well, there's thousand of people who make a living writing, but the original post was about novelists.

Like any art, there's a handful who are very successful, others who just make a decent living, others who are just scraping by, and some I suppose, who are starving.

Personally, I'm not quitting my day job just yet.

aadams73 · Feb 22, 2007

That statistic sounds like a total pantsload of horse crap to me. I can think of a least a dozen novelists, none of them mentioned already, who may not make the huge bucks, but they make enough to live comfortably without having to work outside the house.

ghost · Feb 22, 2007

alleycat said:
Well, there's thousand of people who make a living writing, but the original post was about novelists.

Like any art, there's a handful who are very successful, others who just make a decent living, others who are just scraping by, and some I suppose, who are starving.

Personally, I'm not quitting my day job just yet.

Exactly! We're talking about people who make a living off of their books. As I said before, it's defined as people who can afford houses, cars, and all those things that allow them to 'keep up with the Jonses'. Them rich peeps.

This does not count people who have day jobs. They're people who have been successful (or lucky enough in the case of Dan Brown) to make a lot of money off of writing. It's very rare.

aadams73 · Feb 22, 2007

You don't have to be rich to afford to buy a house and car. I think there is some really flawed thinking here.

ghost · Feb 22, 2007

aadams73 said:
That statistic sounds like a total pantsload of horse crap to me. I can think of a least a dozen novelists, none of them mentioned already, who may not make the huge bucks, but they make enough to live comfortably without having to work outside the house.

Heated argument! I love it!

Writer's make less money than you think.
Ok, break it down. Suppose you write a book that sells at 17.00. Standard contract is 15% of sales. That's a 1.13 you're earning for every book. 15% of that 1.13 goes to your agent. Suppose you are lucky and sell 5,000 books. That's roughly (and my math sucks) 5273.44 in your pocket. It takes two years for a book to be published. That's not very much money for over two years worth of work.

Jamesaritchie · Feb 22, 2007

Stats

Whoever came up with that stat just made it up out of thin air. There are more than thirty-seven novelists on the NYT bestseller list at any given time, all of whom make pretty fair money. "Comfortable" is a meaningless word. They need to start quoting dollars and cents.

I can think of close to thirty-seven romance writers alone who make very, very good money.

To throw another stat out, last time I heard, there were more than 100 novelists who made over $300,000 per year, and I strongly suspect this number has gone way up since, considering I can think of a dozen new millionaire writers off the top of my head. And even then there were considerably more writers who made between $100,000 and $300,000.

FergieC · Feb 22, 2007

I think there is some really flawed thinking here.

I agree with that. I mean, I'm doing a professional day job as well as writing. I've never owned a car, and rent a small flat. I'm pretty happy with that, and if I could ever make enough out of writing to keep my little rented flat and bus pass I'd be delighted.

I'm not sure I trust the figures they've used for living comfortably at all: way too non-specific. It's like saying only 42 novelists in the known universe are happy. Totally unquantifiable.

It remains true that very, very few people can make a living out of writing alone, but if you're going to use statistics, at least use proper ones

Jamesaritchie · Feb 22, 2007

Money

ghost said:
Heated argument! I love it!

Writer's make less money than you think.
Ok, break it down. Suppose you write a book that sells at 17.00. Standard contract is 15% of sales. That's a 1.13 you're earning for every book. 15% of that 1.13 goes to your agent. Suppose you are lucky and sell 5,000 books. That's roughly (and my math sucks) 5273.44 in your pocket. It takes two years for a book to be published. That's not very much money for over two years worth of work.

Even a bad book should sell 5,000 copies. Take a look at the NYT list. It's long, changes often, and trust me, you need to put up huge numbers to make that list.

And if your books sell well at all, there won't be two years between books. They'll come out almost as fast as you can write them. It's usually only first novels. or novels from writers who aren't selling well, that take an average of eighteen months to publish.

ghost · Feb 22, 2007

I used 5,000 as an example because that is the normal amount of a first run copy. There are thousands of books that never make it to a second print.

I'm not saying the quote is right or true because I don't know. It was however, mentioned by one of my Professors/writer's at my school. She is also one of the most well-respected people in the UK publishing industry.

scarletpeaches · Feb 22, 2007

To me, 'comfortable' means not having to worry about paying bills any more. And of course, having a bit left over for the things I enjoy; getting my hair done, nice clothes, socialising.

I'd also like to learn to drive. Owning my own home doesn't bother me, so that's pretty far down my list of priorities. Food, rent, clothes and seeing friends are what I want or need.

And lots of books.

aadams73 · Feb 22, 2007

ghost said:
Heated argument! I love it!

Writer's make less money than you think.

Hardly.

And I'm quite aware what writers make, having been at this game for quite some time.

ghost · Feb 22, 2007

aadams73 said:
Hardly.

And I'm quite aware what writers make, having been at this game for quite some time.

I'm being hopeful. haha I love a good debate!

aadams73 · Feb 22, 2007

I can't think of a good reply that wouldn't sound snarky when I don't mean it to be.

I'd love for you to ask her to qualify/clarify her claim.

alleycat · Feb 22, 2007

It would be interesting to know exactly who came up with the original "statistic," and how (" . . . there are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics . . ."). It would a significant amount of research just to come up with a reasonable figure, even if someone was a publishing insider. My guess (and that's all it is): someone pulled it out of their butt.

By the way, in no way am I arguing it's easy to make a living as a writer, nor complaining about "ghost" making the original post.

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