Maps, Character Lists and you

Zoombie · Feb 19, 2007

So I'm big fan of Harry Turtledove. He's one of those authors who's books sound completely retarded untill you actually read them and find out that they're actually really good.

Example: Turtledove's World War Seires. The premis; At the hight of World War Two, an alien conquest fleet arrives and begins trying to take over the planet. Result? One really good four book seires about an alternate World War Two.

But in each of Turtledove's books he has charicter lists (That are like...7 to 8 pages long) and he also has maps. And I was wondering if anyone else copies the maps out of their favoret books and then writes on them with a red pen?

And if you were going to print a book, would you have a map in the front?

If you will, could you please make it easier to copy it out of there? Cause in most books it kinks up in the middle and that makes the middle come out all fuzzy...

Ashtal · Feb 19, 2007

I don't make a copy of the map of a book and write on it, but if they are there in the book I do reference them.

And nothing annoys me more than a map that does not have all locations listed on it that are referenced inside the book.

If you have a map, and if you are constantly referencing places, put them on the map. If you aren't, why have the map at all? Heck, do two maps if you must, one of the general lay of the land and then one with all the details. Drives me nuts trying to find something on the map that isn't listed after all.

I do have maps for some of my stories. If I get a book published, we'll see if they let me include it, or have one professionally made. Can't hurt, I don't think, to have one. I like them when I'm reading, if they illuminating.

Zoombie · Feb 19, 2007

Nothing pisses me off more than reading about how someone is in the city of Justistaizanclickclick or something and then I can't FIND Justistaizanclickclick on the map.

The only way I think someone could get away with that is if they had something about how the city or town or volcano isn't on the maps.

scribbler1382 · Feb 19, 2007

I know a few authors who have character lists (Dramatis Persona) and maps in their books, but I don't know any who have any input into how they're printed or what pagination is used. I think you need to find a publishers forum for that. Though, I suppose you could coerce some authors into putting printable versions of the maps on their websites that you could download, etc. Not sure of the legalities, but you might be able to get a reference to the website in the book.

Best of luck.

Maryn · Feb 19, 2007

I'm too lazy to go hunting it, but I dimly recall George R.R. Martin's website having printable maps but not character lists (which appear in his books). I'd have printed out both if I were reading the paperback editions.

PeeDee · Feb 19, 2007

I actively loathe fantasy maps in the front of fantasy novels. I have no use for them, and I don't care. The odds of me actually sitting down with a protractor and going "Neeee! He hath moved too quickly from place to place! Ha!" is pretty slim.

I'm less bothered by Dramatis Personae, even though I never read them. I can read five pages of:

Peregrin Took (loyal friend of Frodo and Sam
Meriaduc Brandybuck (loyal friend of Frodo and Sam)
Aragorn (Lost King of Gondor pretending to be a Ranger from the North)
Gandalf (really ancient angel like creautre, still smarting from Melenkor)
Saurman The Many Colored (Fallen really ancient angel with a cool voice)

By the time I'm halfway into chapter two, I'm not going to remember any of it. Nor do I need to. If I encounter Aragorn sitting in a tavern smoking his pipe, I'm not going to flip back to the Dramatis to find out if he's a major character. I'm just going to read and see if he hangs around, or if he dies, or what.

It was cool when Tolkien did a map. It was cool when C.S. Lewis did a map. By the time you follow this chain all the way down the line to now, Christopher Paolini doing a map is just so much graphical fan-fiction.

Maryn · Feb 19, 2007

Gee, PeeDee, I needed the map to wade through Martin. The character lists, too. Our son used to joke that the only time I ever called him was to ask him who somebody was or where was some place they were headed and what was there. Now I occasionally call with suggestions for who should play someone.

Maryn, from a family of phone-haters

PeeDee · Feb 19, 2007

Maryn said:
Gee, PeeDee, I needed the map to wade through Martin. The character lists, too. Our son used to joke that the only time I ever called him was to ask him who somebody was or where was some place they were headed and what was there. Now I occasionally call with suggestions for who should play someone.

Yeah, I know, and I suspect I'm mostly alone in this. I think that the work shold be able to stand on its own, that the story should hold you firmly enough that you're not wondering whether he's headed two leagues north or south.

I don't need a map in sci-fi, to know if a ship is heading rimward or hubward. In a post-apocalyptic book like "A Canticle for Leibowitz," I don't need to plot the journey from an abbey in the Utah Desert, to New Rome.

All I want is what happens along the way.

I want Bilbo to go There and Back Again. I don't need to know if he went There By Way Of the Cresting River Which Was Thirty Leagues South of Where His Actual Route Took Him and That's So Wrong and Innaccurate.

I need to know that he went, he went with Dwarves, he floated down a river, and so forth.

I was delighted when Terry Pratchett disliked maps. He says it's because "you can't map a sense of humor," which is true enough. Not the same reason as me, but reason enough.

...

That said, there are maps of Pratchett's Ankh-Morpork online, and I've looked at them and been amused and enjoyed finding things on the map. But I've also enjoyed paintings of the city too, and ultimately, I don't need either one when I sit down to read a book.

laurenem6 · Feb 19, 2007

I like maps in the books that I read, and I, too, am annoyed when someplace is mentioned or travelled in the book and not in the map! What's the point of the map then? When I write fantasy that has it's own made-up location, I really like to make myself a map. I would hope that the map (drawn by a professional) would be included in my novel if/when it is published.

Novelust · Feb 19, 2007

I'll go back and look at the maps later on, after I've finished the story, but I don't want to constantly reference a guide to know where I am. I don't love overly-long character or place descriptions, either. I love an author that is willing to let me fill in the gaps, and get on with telling the story.

scribbler1382 · Feb 19, 2007

If I need a picture of any kind to understand your writing, you messed up.

Judg · Feb 19, 2007

I don't care very much if there's a map in a book or not, although I usually look at them if they are there. On the other hand, I am keeping a rough map of the world in my WIP, to make sure I keep everything straight. A list of characters? It's useful for me while I'm writing, but I can't imagine for the life of me why it's necessary for the reader.

Shadow_Ferret · Feb 19, 2007

I don't mind maps in the front, I glance at them and then don't give them another thought. The Ace/Lancer Conan series of books had a map in the front. At the time I thought that was pretty cool. I probably even referenced it once in a while.

But really, I think if you NEED to reference the map to understand the story then that is pretty flawed writing.

To me the map is just there to give you an idea of what the world looks like and nothing more.

I don't know what a character list is.

spinnerin · Feb 19, 2007

I love how Neal Stephenson's Baroque Cycle trilogy used maps in the book design. They're on the endpapers in the hardcover editions, so it's not taking up extra pages before you get to the story, but available as a reference if you start wondering where these places are. They're well drawn, too.

jodiodi · Feb 19, 2007

I've got a character list/geneology, but only plan to use it and maybe a map, if my book gets published and I put them on my website. I don't care about having them in the book proper.

KiraOnWhite · Feb 20, 2007

I think maps of really accomplicated towns/cities should be drawn for reference in chapters where the characters are all at different places and hence might cause confusion. I know I sound crazy saying this but...maps should be cutified and lack that medieval parchment effect...like in mangas, they draw a cute version of the character on the map to show where he/she is. Or maybe the artist could draw a general map of the world with the characters on it to as some timeline.

I haven't seen a character list in any books, think they're pretty pointless since even the nameless castaway character the hero slains would not be mentioned anyway.

PattiTheWicked · Feb 20, 2007

I like maps if you're reading a historical novel. There are plenty of parts of the world that I'm unfamiliar with, and it's good for me to get a visual as to where things are located in relation to one another. In fantasy, however, it seems silly -- after all, if I'm the one who created the world of Snarpdoodle, then there's no way people need a map of it, because they can use their imaginations to figure out where stuff is. My WIP takes place along Hadrian's Wall, and I created a neat roll-out map of the length of the wall so I can use it for reference when I'm writing. I imagine if I ever sell it, the most that would be needed would be a map of Britain, and that's it.

As for lists of characters, family trees are sometimes kind of cool, because then you can see how everyone's related to each other. Lists don't help me, but ahnentafel charts do.

MattW · Feb 20, 2007

I infrequently use the maps provided in a book. Usually as a reference in chapter one to familiarize myself with the geography, or in a change of POV with different location.

For myself, I sketch out a rough map of an area I'm writing in, but only as a guide. If the stroy goes another way, or requires a change in geographical features, I'll press on, maybe with a note to ammend the map.

Character lists are a peeve of mine. I hate when the come first - I don't know who anyone is, where they are from, or what's important about their blurbs. As an appendix, they are fine to reference if there is a cast of thousands, but usually not needed for a tight, one volume novel.

KiraOnWhite · Feb 20, 2007

I'd rather use a character 'web'. You know, the draw the characters heads and connect them to one another using arrows then writing what their relationships are. Family trees somehow brings about nostalgia, when you see how many generations your characters have...though so far, I haven't found any story that long yet.

roach · Feb 20, 2007

I usually ignore maps in the front of books*. Part of the reason is because most of the maps are drawn by artists. If these were the maps drawn by the authors I might look at them as source material to what was going on in the writer's head when writing the book. Otherwise I can do without them.

That written, I did draw a map for my latest WIP. I needed to fix the location of several city-states and other geographic features (mountain ranges, rivers, lakes, etc.) for consistency when I write. Being the lazy roach that I am, I just traced over a Wyoming state map and appropriated what I needed.

I doubt a publisher would ever want to publish that multi-colored chimera in the front of the book. If they want a map they can hire someone who can draw to come up with something suitably artistic and I'll not say a word.

*(I get particularly peeved with non-fiction history books with just one map at the front of the book so that when you are on page 217 you have to flip back and forth to figure out where everything is taking place . . . but that's just me.)

Zoombie · Feb 20, 2007

I actually need maps more on fantasy books than in real world books, because I've lived in the real world all my life...but fantasy worlds...nuh uh.

Vincent · Feb 20, 2007

I'm seeing less and less maps in newer fantasy books.

nils · Feb 21, 2007

I love maps. I really do. The more, the fancier, and the more detailed the better. If it's a series, or a very long book... hell I am a sucker for an encyclopedic chapter as well. Even if I don't like the world presented in the novel much, maps are always cool. If I like the world... I'll want to know all the details. What can I say, I am a world design geek.

And on the subject of maps, here's a cool random link: http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/

Character lists.... I don't mind them, but don't use them either.

Tri-Injuring Prophet · Feb 22, 2007

I have a map for self reference of where towns are located, tectonic movement, character origins and the like but I doubt I'd include it without a) the publisher wanting me to and b) having it checked by someone who knows what they're doing. I did my research, but I'm no geologist.

Maps, Character Lists and you

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