Gods in contemporary fantasy

Sage · Feb 11, 2007

So I know fantasy readers in general don't have problems when they read about multiple gods, no gods, or alternative religions in high/epic/S&S fantasy. But I got an interesting comment from one of my betas, & it makes me wonder if setting it in the present & partially in the "real world" changes the way people will read it.

For example, the main characters in my last ms. are Angels of Death & there are multiple gods that they work under. They acknowledge the religions of our world because they work in it, and they have no problem with those religions, but there are a couple of specific explanations on how people came to believe what they believe when the truth (of this world) is different (like an explanation for Hercules & Jesus as real people from the past). The Jesus "explanation" got a "LOL" from one reader & a "won't this alienate people?" from another (& no comment from the other beta readers I don't know personally). But if the reader is already reading about a world where multiple gods exist, why would an explanation for Jesus according to that world's reality alienate them?

But this particular beta also seemed a little uncomfortable with the idea of multiple gods in general, or at least worried that agents/readers would be, so I wondered if it really was the setting that made a difference. Does bringing in the "real world" change the way people see fantasy mythology? Do fantasy readers see it as okay to have multiple gods, a different type of God, or no higher being at all when the fantasy is set long ago in a faraway place, & then feel threatened when the setting is close to home?

I realize there are some people who would shun the work, regardless, if it presented a religion that didn't match their own. But I never expected them to be part of my audience anyway. It was really those who usually read fantasy & are exposed to different cultures with different religions who I would be surprised to hear had problems with it. The actual multiple god part in my own novel is not going to change (too important a part of the novel), but I thought the question the reader raised was interesting & thought I'd see what you all think.

Zoombie · Feb 11, 2007

I don't think anyone will mind if you have there be multiple gods in our world. Some people (including me) Would get a little annoyed if you said something retarded like "Jesus is a space alien!" but I doubt your going to do that. As long as the explanation is good (or funny, because I've got this thing we people like to call 'a sense of humor') then I think most people would go with it.

Sage · Feb 11, 2007

Ah, I don't mind revealing the actual Jesus "explanation" from the novel. Basically what is said is that Jesus was completely human, but the gods were hoping to use his non-death at the crucifixion as a miracle to inspire people (for whatever purpose the gods had, which isn't actually specified since it's not a god telling the story). But an Angel of Death actually took his soul to the afterlife when they weren't supposed to, so the gods had to replace it, thus his resurrection. People took it as the miracle the gods had wanted in the first place & all was good

It's in response to a question the MC had that is related to the plot, but the anecdote is not completely necessary, so if I get more feedback that this particular section might offend people, I wouldn't be horribly against removing it. So far, it's just been one person's concerns, though.

AnnieColleen · Feb 11, 2007

In general? You're probably ok.

I do know some people who might be annoyed (yes, me included), depending on how you handle it. But if the story was otherwise ok, I would probably either just argue with it, or decide the characters were ignorant/misinformed (yes, because I-the-reader know more about their fictional world :tongue

) and keep reading. If there were other hot-button issues in the same story it might be enough for me to put the book down.

eta: just saw your explanation. Yeah, I would probably argue with that one. If it's not essential, you might do better taking it out, but even if you don't you're probably ok. (I mean, having multiple gods in the real world really trumps that particular explanation as a possible issue with the book!)

Again, though, whether it would be a deal-breaker for me to keep reading would depend on how it was handled and if there were any other issues.

Sage · Feb 11, 2007

Thanks, Annie. I'm curious if you would still have an issue (I mean, one worth arguing or deciding the characters were misinformed) with the religion though, if it was set in a high-fantasy-type setting? Is it the current day setting that makes a difference, or would you have the same problem no matter what the setting? Or is it just the Jesus part that you don't like?

ETA: Just read your ETA. I think you answered it

Zoombie · Feb 11, 2007

I'm not to angered up by the given explanation, seeing as how I'm an atheist and there fore I annoy people by my very existence (but that might be due to my personality).

dragonjax · Feb 11, 2007

I created a mythology of Heaven and Hell in my book, and I'm pretty sure it's going to bother some readers. Then again, considering my main character is a succubus-turned-stripper and that my book won't appear in W-M or Target, I'm also fairly certain the people whom it would bother the most won't actually be reading my book.

I say: write the story you want to write. Let an agent determine if it's too controversial for publication. Don't self-censor.

LilaDubois · Feb 11, 2007

I think that you will intrigue a lot of people. Sure some people would find it offensive but those people probably wouldn't have liked your book anyway. Christianity is riddled with holes that are begging for an explanation. I think that people will find it intriguing, especially if you really work the explanation into the 'facts' as they are known.

Then again I am one of those people who loves to watch dead sea scrolls and lost testament documentaries, studied under one of the foremost religious scholars in college, and can tell you where most of the text of the new testament actually came from.

I lurrrrved Jackie's book, and now I'm looking forward to yours.

Tallymark · Feb 11, 2007

Go read American Gods by Neil Gaiman. It is very much an urban fantasy and is very, very much about multiple gods.

Neil Gaiman is, himself, a god of writing, so if he can do it, you can too!

The Jesus thing will probably be fine as long as you handle it well...it sounds like it's not necessary, so it can always be ommitted at a later point if you change your mind. I've been fighting with myself over a sort of similar thing--I only have one god in it (the judeo-christian god), but I twist an awful, awful lot of things, and I don't know if I'm treading into offensive territory. You're probably a lot safer than me in that you've created your own thing entirely, and are just tweaking a few real-religion things to fit with your own creation. Me, I'm stomping all over everyone. XD (and I haven't the faintest idea how to handle the Jesus thing in mine at all, since the main character is Jewish, and overall the religious aspects of the story seem to be omitting the 'christian' in judeo-christian. it ain't even intentional on my part, it's just what the story says needs to happen.).

But anyway, in answer to your question, nah, it shouldn't be a problem. People who read urban fantasy want to see stuff like that. Just make sure that it's portrayed in an interesting or quirky way.

Teraphim · Feb 12, 2007

Zoombie said:
"Jesus is a space alien!"

See Arthur C. Clarke, I believe the one in question was "Rendezvous with Rama".

If you aren't offending somebody, somewhere, you aren't doing your job.

Also, something worth thinking about whenever I think about any religious censorship of any stripe, from Granta and Salman Rushdie:

http://www.granta.com/extracts/294

MattW · Feb 12, 2007

As far as multiple gods, the First Commandment can be read as a confimation of their existence, but a denial of their power.

AnnieColleen · Feb 12, 2007

Sage said:
Thanks, Annie. I'm curious if you would still have an issue (I mean, one worth arguing or deciding the characters were misinformed) with the religion though, if it was set in a high-fantasy-type setting? Is it the current day setting that makes a difference, or would you have the same problem no matter what the setting? Or is it just the Jesus part that you don't like?

ETA: Just read your ETA. I think you answered it

Another few thoughts I had last night:

I do tend to get irritated with multiple gods in a high-fantasy type world, but that's more because too many authors use it as a cheap world-building dodge, or just assume that's what a fantasy world should have, and don't put a lot of thought into what's plausible or works best for their particular story. (I have a group of writer friends that calls itself the Monotheistic Fantasy Club for this reason. :tongue

) If done well, though, it's much less of an issue.

I think the reason multiple gods in the real world is a problem for me is a suspension-of-disbelief issue. Meaning, my understanding of God is tied in with my understanding of how the universe works at a very basic level. When the story asks me to accept (suspend disbelief for) a different theology, it stirs up a bunch of related philosophical questions that distract from just reading and enjoying the story. It's not that it's offensive necessarily, just that it sets a higher bar for me to get lost in the story because I have to get past the "but how does that work?" type questions -- especially when the different theology bumps up against the events of Christian revelation directly. With a fantasy world, or a pre-Christian real-world setting, it's easier to shush the questions and enjoy the story. (Think of a military- or medically-educated reader getting pulled out of the story by their particular area of expertise -- basically the same thing.)

Shadow_Ferret · Feb 12, 2007

Sage said:
But this particular beta also seemed a little uncomfortable with the idea of multiple gods in general, or at least worried that agents/readers would be, so I wondered if it really was the setting that made a difference. Does bringing in the "real world" change the way people see fantasy mythology? Do fantasy readers see it as okay to have multiple gods, a different type of God, or no higher being at all when the fantasy is set long ago in a faraway place, & then feel threatened when the setting is close to home?

My own WIP uses all the Gods of mythology, be it Norse, Greek, Roman, Indian, Christian, etc. They are all real and they all exist. It'sjust like real life. Some people believe in Jesus. Some believe in something else.

I don't see why anyone who reads urban fantasy would have a problem with multiple gods.

Zoombie · Feb 12, 2007

Teraphim said:
See Arthur C. Clarke, I believe the one in question was "Rendezvous with Rama".

Actually, if memory serves, they never actually SAY Jesus is a space alien. It's just one of the MC's is a member of a chirch that thinks Jesus came from space...then traveled back in time and did some very un-messiah like things with Mary. Uhhhh...back on topic:

No, I'm lying. I don't have anything that's actaully on topic...bummer.

Summonere · Feb 12, 2007

Does bringing in the "real world" change the way people see fantasy mythology?

No. Or at least not much. As to whether or not readers are less threatened by fantasy in the distant world versus the present one, I doubt that many care one way or the other.

Hal Duncan, for instance, killed off God in his recent book, Vellum, and plays with the idea of multiple gods as well as the idea that anyone can become one. This is a book, by the way, that Del Rey is marketing as "genre transcending," though at one time it would have clearly been marketed as science fiction, just as it might well have been marketed as fantasy during other times, when fantasy didn't necessarily make people think of what is now termed "high fantasy."

Neil Gaiman's very popular and award-winning American Gods operates around the idea of the modern world being choke full of gods, old and new.

Piers Anthony wrote a very successful series of novels, Incarnations of Immortality, based upon a variety of Greek and other gods set, as I vaguely recall, in a vaguely similar-to-our own world.

I expect that, as long as you tell an entertaining story, everything should be okey-dokey.

Sage · Feb 12, 2007

I've been meaning to read American Gods. My roomie has it, & loves it (but says I can't touch her copy, which is signed).

triceretops · Feb 12, 2007

I had to tip toe around this one. I have the Roman Goddess of Luck, Fortuna, as a main character in my story, and she interacts with my male MC, who is trying to better himself and believe in one all powerful God (The real Creator). So I dodged around that and didn't spend too much time on the matter. When the subject came up, Fortuna admitted to a higher God, that that she was actually tolerated by him and allowed to function in the real world without interference. I might boggle some heads on that one. I tried to make her out to be a minor God, or a helpmate to justify her existence.

Trying not to get offensive can really drive one batty.

Tri

kct webber · Feb 19, 2007

Teraphim said:
If you aren't offending somebody, somewhere, you aren't doing your job.

I couldn't agree more. Why is everyone so worried about offending people? Dan Brown offended a lot of people and look where he is. As referenced, Salman Rushdie offended some of the most dangerous people in the world and look where he is.

I don't think that this should be the goal, of course, but censorship is censorship, be it by your own hands, or those of someone else. Offensive things make people think. They make them ask questions. Offensive things make people explore, whether they want to or not.

Offend me, dammit! Do it proudly! I will applaud you for it. And, if nothing else, I'll damn sure remember your work.

MattW · Feb 20, 2007

Tangent to the current discussion - how do folks feel about monotheism in fantasy? I personally have tried it out, and while I borrowed a lot from medieval Christianity, I also had new origins, legends, and practices. There were no physical manifestations of a god, no powers called down, and no diametricly opposed "evil" diety. It was not a worldwide homogeneous religion, but the fringes were never encountered.

Religion in my case was another facet to each character, and individual motivations could twist and bend doctrine to their own benefit. I treated it a another sphere of influence, like politics or wealth.

ink wench · Feb 20, 2007

Wow, what an interesting topic. I never would have considered this an issue. I mean, it's fantasy. If I can suspend disbelief for magic and dragons and whatever else, I can suspend disbelief for religion and gods. But then I'm a bit of an athiest, so I need to suspend disbelief whenever religion comes up.

Guess that's why I never thought this might cause a reader angst!

MattW said:
Tangent to the current discussion - how do folks feel about monotheism in fantasy? I personally have tried it out, and while I borrowed a lot from medieval Christianity, I also had new origins, legends, and practices. There were no physical manifestations of a god, no powers called down, and no diametricly opposed "evil" diety. It was not a worldwide homogeneous religion, but the fringes were never encountered.

To keep on the tangent... My WIP has a (sort of) monotheistic religion in it. I drew a bit on medieval Christianity for it, but much of it is my own (it's very agricultural-based). I don't think the monotheistic aspects themselves influence the story greatly, but the story takes place during a time of religious upheaval. The monotheistic religion, which is the aristocratic religion basically, is trying to wipe out indigenous beliefs. My MC is greatly influenced by this, and her preference for the indigenous religion drives some of the conflict.

Peggy · Feb 20, 2007

While you are sure to offend somebody if you bring recognizable religions into your work, as long as you have a good story you should be fine. It's not like you are writing a satire on Christianity (or at least one flavor of Christianity) a la Heinlein's Job.

Higgins · Feb 20, 2007

Gods and mechanisms

ink wench said:
Wow, what an interesting topic. I never would have considered this an issue. I mean, it's fantasy. If I can suspend disbelief for magic and dragons and whatever else, I can suspend disbelief for religion and gods. But then I'm a bit of an athiest, so I need to suspend disbelief whenever religion comes up. Guess that's why I never thought this might cause a reader angst!

To keep on the tangent... My WIP has a (sort of) monotheistic religion in it. I drew a bit on medieval Christianity for it, but much of it is my own (it's very agricultural-based). I don't think the monotheistic aspects themselves influence the story greatly, but the story takes place during a time of religious upheaval. The monotheistic religion, which is the aristocratic religion basically, is trying to wipe out indigenous beliefs. My MC is greatly influenced by this, and her preference for the indigenous religion drives some of the conflict.

It's odd, but once I have the world-building/invent-your-cosmos mechanisms to bring one god into fictive being, I rarely see any reason to stop. For me the problem is not one-versus many, but how to "run" a cosmos in a general way...which for me, at least seems to include very large numbers of supernatural beings of great power.

I'm not sure how this duplicative pleasure fits into satire or offending people, but is it certainly a possibility inherent in the world-building mechanism, ie, you can have lots and lots of gods.

Shadow_Ferret · Feb 20, 2007

Teraphim said:
If you aren't offending somebody, somewhere, you aren't doing your job.

kct webber said:
I couldn't agree more. Why is everyone so worried about offending people? Dan Brown offended a lot of people and look where he is. As referenced, Salman Rushdie offended some of the most dangerous people in the world and look where he is.

I don't think that this should be the goal, of course, but censorship is censorship, be it by your own hands, or those of someone else. Offensive things make people think. They make them ask questions. Offensive things make people explore, whether they want to or not.

Offend me, dammit! Do it proudly! I will applaud you for it. And, if nothing else, I'll damn sure remember your work.

Um, I'm writing entertainment. Why would I want to deliberately offend anyone? That makes no sense to me. If you're looking for an offensive writer, than skip my books because my goal is simply to tell entertaining stories.

And where is Salman Rushdie? Still in hiding?

Sage · Feb 20, 2007

MattW said:
Tangent to the current discussion - how do folks feel about monotheism in fantasy? I personally have tried it out, and while I borrowed a lot from medieval Christianity, I also had new origins, legends, and practices. There were no physical manifestations of a god, no powers called down, and no diametricly opposed "evil" diety. It was not a worldwide homogeneous religion, but the fringes were never encountered.

Religion in my case was another facet to each character, and individual motivations could twist and bend doctrine to their own benefit. I treated it a another sphere of influence, like politics or wealth.

I think it's perfectly natural for intelligent beings to believe in some sort of higher power, & human history shows us it could be one god, multiple gods, or something completely different. I don't see how one belief system in a fantastical setting would be better than another (on principle. For the actual story, it would make a difference

). Monotheism works in the real world, why not in a fantasy?

ink wench said:
Wow, what an interesting topic. I never would have considered this an issue. I mean, it's fantasy. If I can suspend disbelief for magic and dragons and whatever else, I can suspend disbelief for religion and gods.

That's kind of how I felt too, when the subject came up from my beta.

engmajor2005 · Feb 21, 2007

Sage said:
I've been meaning to read American Gods. My roomie has it, & loves it (but says I can't touch her copy, which is signed).

First of all, I want a date with your roommate.

Secondly, I actually kind of like your explanation of Jesus. Sounds like something I would write, and it seems to make sense in the context of your mythology.

I would caution you to avoid the Dan Brown Syndrome: selling your novel based entirely on a controversial depiction of Jesus. It should be relevant to the work somehow, be it an advancement of the plot or part of your world-building.

Even if it doesn't fit in nicely in this novel, save it. I really, really like it and I'm sure it would be a great basis for another work.

Gods in contemporary fantasy

Our Lady of Parentheticals

Dragon of the Multiverse

Our Lady of Parentheticals

Invisible Writer

Our Lady of Parentheticals

Dragon of the Multiverse

I write stuff and break boards.

Company Man

Invisible Writer

Court Jester

Dragon of the Multiverse

Our Lady of Parentheticals

Squirrel, Sekrit type, 1 ea.

Company Man

ray of motherf#%&ing sunshine

Court Jester

Our Lady of Parentheticals