Narration, POV character...I'm confused.

Azure Skye · Feb 7, 2007

Ok, I will probably confused everyone but here goes...

I understand POV pretty well, at least I thought I did, but now I'm confused about narration and POV together or something like that. Is narration supposed to be done by the POV character? I was always under the impression that the narrator was a separate entity from the POV character but as I was reading Self Editing for Fiction Writers I see that I am not entirely right. Or maybe I'm confused.

My POV character is a little girl of twelve and I use third person POV. I feel I'm, the writer, stepping in as narrator and sometimes I'm not sure if it feels right. Am I right or should I still be narrating from the POV character? Told you I was confused.

:Huh:

Cat Scratch · Feb 7, 2007

Are you talking about omniscient narrative? Where the narrator is a god-like observer having nothing to do with the story? This is occasionally done as well. Just be certain this is a concious choice.

Hillgate · Feb 7, 2007

Azura Skye said:
Ok, I will probably confused everyone but here goes...

I understand POV pretty well, at least I thought I did, but now I'm confused about narration and POV together or something like that. Is narration supposed to be done by the POV character? I was always under the impression that the narrator was a separate entity from the POV character but as I was reading Self Editing for Fiction Writers I see that I am not entirely right. Or maybe I'm confused.

My POV character is a little girl of twelve and I use third person POV. I feel I'm, the writer, stepping in as narrator and sometimes I'm not sure if it feels right. Am I right or should I still be narrating from the POV character? Told you I was confused.

Can I be blunt? From what you've described I'd try it from the first person perspective. If I ever feel myself 'stepping in' I know something's wrong...

jdparadise · Feb 7, 2007

Azura Skye said:
My POV character is a little girl of twelve and I use third person POV. I feel I'm, the writer, stepping in as narrator and sometimes I'm not sure if it feels right. Am I right or should I still be narrating from the POV character?

There are three levels to this:

1. Author
2. Narrator
3. Viewpoint character

The narrator is the persona the author assumes to tell the story. It may be the POV character's persona, but it does not need to be. Steven King writes in tight-third, but it's definitely Steven King's Narrator (who sounds a lot like Steven King) telling the story; he's just using the viewpoint character for reference points and identification.

This is something I've only recently come to grips with, so I sympathize with your confusion

A more concrete example:

Say you, personally, are going to tell the story of how you went to the grocery store today and the weirdest person in the world touched your arm and said something dirty to you.

If you're telling it to your parents, you'll maybe mention the person and what they were wearing, but you'll leave out the come-on and the profanities, perhaps. If you're telling your diary, may you mention how the encounter kind of turned you on a little, made you wonder what would happen if you went along. If you're telling your best friend, whom you don't trust all that much, you'll be sarcastic to be sure the friend doesn't think you were turned on. If you were telling a child, you'd emphasize the colorfulness of the person but leave out all sorts of things.

The things you choose to present and leave out, the way you choose to communicate the encounter--that's the narrator in action.

Does that makes sense?

maestrowork · Feb 7, 2007

If it's 3rd person, then the narrator is separate from the POV characters, even in 3rd limited. The narrator may or may not assume a personality, and it may or may not be one of the characters in the story (e.g. say a child narrating what happened to his family 40 years ago in 3rd person).

In 1st person, the narrator is the POV character.

Azure Skye · Feb 7, 2007

Cat Scratch said:
Are you talking about omniscient narrative? Where the narrator is a god-like observer having nothing to do with the story? This is occasionally done as well. Just be certain this is a concious choice.

No, I'm trying to avoid that altogether. I'm pretty sure I'm not doing that as it doesn't feel that way.

Hillgate said:
Can I be blunt? From what you've described I'd try it from the first person perspective. If I ever feel myself 'stepping in' I know something's wrong...

I've thought about first person but I'm not too sure if I've got the chops to pull it off yet. I tried rewriting it in first person but that was a while ago and it didn't seem right. Who knows, I might try it as an exercise sometime.

jdparadise said:
There are three levels to this:

1. Author
2. Narrator
3. Viewpoint character

The narrator is the persona the author assumes to tell the story. It may be the POV character's persona, but it does not need to be. Steven King writes in tight-third, but it's definitely Steven King's Narrator (who sounds a lot like Steven King) telling the story; he's just using the viewpoint character for reference points and identification.

That makes sense and that's what I feel like I'm doing.

maestrowork said:
If it's 3rd person, then the narrator is separate from the POV characters, even in 3rd limited. The narrator may or may not assume a personality, and it may or may not be one of the characters in the story (e.g. say a child narrating what happened to his family 40 years ago in 3rd person).

In 1st person, the narrator is the POV character.

I'd like to create more intimacy with the POV character. Is that possible in third person?

maestrowork · Feb 7, 2007

Azura Skye said:
I'd like to create more intimacy with the POV character. Is that possible in third person?

First person has the most intimacy. It's possible to create great intimacy with 3rd "close" limited if your narrator stay very close to the POV character, reporting every movement and thought, etc. In this case, 3rd close limited is almost like 1st person. It's not, but it's the next best thing.

Judg · Feb 7, 2007

Azura, let me recommend Elements of Fiction Writing:Characterization and Viewpoint by Orson Scott Card. I think you'd find it very useful, especially the section where he discusses different levels of penetration with a limited third person POV.

brer · Feb 7, 2007

1.)

Originally posted by Azura Skye:

I'd like to create more intimacy with the POV character. Is that possible in third person?

Yes. Most definitely. 3rd Limited POV is very, very, very, very popular in the Romance/Women's Fiction Genre. Because it allows the reader to be very intimate with a character.

2.)

Originally posted by Judg:

Azura, let me recommend Elements of Fiction Writing:Characterization and Viewpoint by Orson Scott Card. I think you'd find it very useful, especially the section where he discusses different levels of penetration with a limited third person POV.

I second that motion. imo, that is the best book on POV.
That book will answer (correctly) all your questions.

(aside: The Browne and King book is very good, imo, but not in the POV section.)

Michael Dracon · Feb 8, 2007

brer said:
1.)

Yes. Most definitely. 3rd Limited POV is very, very, very, very popular in the Romance/Women's Fiction Genre. Because it allows the reader to be very intimate with a character.

Correction: 3rd person is very popular in that genre because it tends to follow 2 seperate people.

1st person is much more intimate because you can write about their state of mind much better. You are efectively inside the character. It can't get more intimate than that.

Also, another tip: If you are using 3rd person and you're following just 1 character all the time I recommend switching to 1st person.

RumpleTumbler · Feb 8, 2007

Point of view hasn't clicked for me. I just went and ordered the Orson Scott Card book, maybe that will help.

Azure Skye · Feb 8, 2007

Judg said:
Azura, let me recommend Elements of Fiction Writing:Characterization and Viewpoint by Orson Scott Card. I think you'd find it very useful, especially the section where he discusses different levels of penetration with a limited third person POV.

I have that and have read it over many times. It is a good book. Perhaps I need to go back over one more time.

Raphee · Feb 8, 2007

Azura Skye said:
My POV character is a little girl of twelve and I use third person POV. I feel I'm, the writer, stepping in as narrator and sometimes I'm not sure if it feels right. Am I right or should I still be narrating from the POV character? Told you I was confused.

1 Irrespective of any POV the author is always distinct from narrator. If you feel that you are stepping in than it needs to be done right. You as the author in 3rd person limited are writing most of the time as the world or events or other characters are experienced by your 12 year old POV. Though as others above have said that 3rd limited gives you the options to go outside the realm of the 12 year old at times and narrate from the perspective of say the 60 year old uncle.
So you as the author can narrate from more than one POV.

2 My WIP is based around a 12 year old boy in first person. I have experimented a bit with the third omniscient also. Right now I am as unsure as anything as to what POV shall be the best for my story. Feel like changing notes over perspectives of 12 year olds. These pre teens sure are a handful.

Give me a pm if you feel like it.

Azure Skye · Feb 9, 2007

Michael Dracon said:
Correction: 3rd person is very popular in that genre because it tends to follow 2 seperate people.

1st person is much more intimate because you can write about their state of mind much better. You are efectively inside the character. It can't get more intimate than that.

Also, another tip: If you are using 3rd person and you're following just 1 character all the time I recommend switching to 1st person.

I've been contemplating this ever since I read your post. I'm thinking I might take this approach or at least try it. The problem I had with first person is that I never read a good book where I thought it was handled well. Granted, I hadn't read that many first person novels but I did find one recently while working in the library. I'm reading it now. I'm impressed with the way the writer, Dianne Day, handles it. So, thanks for making me think.

maestrowork · Feb 9, 2007

There are many great 1st person novels -- time to check out the libraries.

Michael Dracon · Feb 9, 2007

Azura Skye said:
I've been contemplating this ever since I read your post. I'm thinking I might take this approach or at least try it. The problem I had with first person is that I never read a good book where I thought it was handled well. Granted, I hadn't read that many first person novels but I did find one recently while working in the library. I'm reading it now. I'm impressed with the way the writer, Dianne Day, handles it. So, thanks for making me think.

1st person can be challenging indeed. You need to think about situations in a different way compared to 3rd person. But if you want intimate it really is the better medium because you can add the person's toughts much easier. That's something that's missing in most 3rd person stories. And to tell you the truth, I really hate it when a book says 'you could see him think ...' in 3rd person.

The downside of 1st person as opposed to 3rd person is that you can't tell about things that the POV character doesn't know. But if done correctly it can only aid even more in the intimacy that you apparantly want. The POV character not knowing certain things and finding out later on can aid in readers relating to the character.

maestrowork · Feb 9, 2007

You can get into character's head and thoughts with 3rd person.

With 3rd person limited, you still can't tell things that the POV character can't know.

CheshireCat · Feb 9, 2007

maestrowork said:
You can get into character's head and thoughts with 3rd person.

Yeah, I've been a bit baffled by the apparent contention that 3rd person prevents the author from "getting inside the character's head."

The only real difference is:

"Her stomach clenched tight as a fist, and she couldn't help wondering if this was to be her punishment." (3rd person)

"My stomach clenched tight as a fist, and I couldn't help wondering if this was to be my punishment." (1st person)

The "I" brings the reader one step closer to the character, sure, but 3rd person can certainly provide thoughts, emotions, and real intimacy with the character.

Selcaby · Feb 10, 2007

When I was writing first person I used to get hung up on questions like:

When is the character telling this?
Who is he telling it to?
Is there anything he would not want to say?
How good is he, in fact, at explaining his feelings?

The character I'm thinking of in particular has quite a lot of inhibitions and, in certain areas, his vocabulary is limited. I feel that I've got a lot closer to him by writing him in third person. I still only say what he thinks, feels and experiences, but now it's ME telling it and I am more outspoken than he is. For instance, I don't mind admitting when he's afraid of something.

Doug Johnson · Feb 10, 2007

Azura Skye said:
I'The problem I had with first person is that I never read a good book where I thought it was handled well.

Try "Catcher in the Rye."

jdparadise · Feb 10, 2007

Selcaby said:
I feel that I've got a lot closer to him by writing him in third person. I still only say what he thinks, feels and experiences, but now it's ME telling it and I am more outspoken than he is. For instance, I don't mind admitting when he's afraid of something.

Two thoughts here:

1. It's not "you" telling it, it's your narrator persona. Subtle distinction sometimes, but useful to distinguish.

2. Sometimes it's a lot of fun, and useful to boot, to -not- be able to admit when the character's afraid, or in love, or intrigued, or what-have-you; by letting the reader figure out what the character hasn't figured out for themself, the reader feels slightly ahead of the character (often a good thing); by letting the reader figure out what the character is consciously/subconsciously hiding from themself, the reader often feels like they know the character better, which is also often a good thing.

Nothing wrong with telling it, mind. But there's power in not telling it, too, and often there's actually more power in the hiding than in the reveal.

Hillgate · Feb 10, 2007

I love writing in the first person and revealing my protogonist's flaws and foibles via the underlying language/syntax. You can also 'cheat', if you know what I mean, because one person's reality is another person's fantasy...

Third person in my view makes you more invincible but also more distant. It works if you - ie the real author - can be just as interesting as the protagonist.

Look at 'The New Confessions' by William Boyd or 'The Alienist' by Caleb Carr and you'll see what I mean.

maestrowork · Feb 10, 2007

Another distinction is that 1st person is by nature unreliable -- we can never be sure that the narrator is telling the truth or knows everything. In fact, the narrator could very well lie about the whole thing or be confused the whole time (Fight Club, for example) or deceptive or in the dark just like the readers. That creates very interesting scenarios and storytelling possibilities.

With 3rd person, while the characters can be unreliable, the narrator is always unbiased, and should always tell the truth. That is, if the character is lying about something, the narrator can't deceive the readers by misleading them to believe they're hearing the truth.

In first person, you can say:

"I don't know who killed her," I said.

...without telling the readers the truth.

In 3rd person, the narrator shouldn't mislead the readers:

"I don't know who killed her," he lied. or

"I don't know who killed her," he said. But he did know.

jdparadise · Feb 11, 2007

maestrowork said:
With 3rd person, while the characters can be unreliable, the narrator is always unbiased, and should always tell the truth. That is, if the character is lying about something, the narrator can't deceive the readers by misleading them to believe they're hearing the truth.

In 3rd person, the narrator shouldn't mislead the readers:

"I don't know who killed her," he lied. or

"I don't know who killed her," he said. But he did know.

Hrm. While this is interesting, and I can see the negative implications of narrator misleading vis a vis reader trust, I'm not sure I agree 100% with the idea expressed here. Among the things that come to mind: instances where the narrator lets the reader figure things out for themself?

"I don't know who killed her," he said. He scratched his nose, and stared at the floor. (esp. if the narrator has previously established said scratching-and-staring as this character's lie-tells.

Even without something that crude, though, there's sins of omission and sins of commission in 3p. As a reader, I think I expect, or at least forgive, sins of omission where the narrator knows but doesn't tell, and doesn't hold the knowledge over my head. Sins of commission (a dishonest 3p narrator, who says "'I don't know who killed her,' he told her honestly" (to be crude) are much less forgivable.

Unfortunately, I don't have an example at hand that would show how it works when a paid writer does it...

CheshireCat · Feb 11, 2007

One reason I tend to avoid a restrictive single character POV in third-person is because I can shift POV if there's information one character has that I don't want to offer the reader. So the POV character is hearing another character lie, but the lie isn't an obvious one, and neither that POV character nor the reader will discover the lie until I want them to.

Or until they guess.

And before somebody says it, I don't shift POV only to hide info. That would be too predictable, wouldn't it?

Narration, POV character...I'm confused.

Huh?

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