crappy writer?

I admit I haven't been to SYW very often of late. Life has been intervening in a very harsh way. I'll wander over there and see what's up. There are some fairly tough reviewers there, but they're usually pretty good at spotting issues in samples. Still, if people are getting out of hand with snarkiness, that's not acceptable. Stay tuned.

Well I was considering posting up some of my work but now I'm just damn afraid!

Well, I don't know how you write but see it this way: you will never manage to please everyone. Sometimes it is because your writing sucks and sometimes because you've got the wrong crowd reading. Don't dismiss the reviews you get in the forum just because you think they are wrong. Look at your work and try to honestly see whether your work is lacking in any sense. Bad writing can always be improved. Contrary to common belief, there is more to writing than natural talent.
If you still think your work is good, then discard the opinions you firmly believe are wrong and use only that criticism which can make it even better. No one said you had to agree with everything in a review.

Don't take it personally. I doubt very much that anyone really said that your work is crap. No one is saying these things because they don't like you or what you are trying to achieve, actually, everyone here knows how hard it is and wants you to succeed. They mean what they say. Again, I have not read any of your work but my opinion would be to take a deep breath and try to see your story from their point of view. If at the end of the day you still think they are completely missing the point then that's all that matters. You're the author and you make the final decision. As long as you're happy with your work, that's all that matters.

I haven't noticed anything mean or malicious there. Perhaps if you provided a link to what, exactly, provoked this post?

It can be so hard to be critiqued, and it can be easy to feel like the person critiquing you is being mean-spirited. But that's not usually true. By pointing out problems or potential problems, they're trying to help you strengthen your work. If you just need encouragement instead of a critical review, the Share Your Work forum might not be the best place to post.

It also doesn't mean you're a crappy writer. ALL writers have problems in early drafts!

Maybe you could give us a quick example, then, without naming any names?

The best way to deal with a thorough critique is to cuss the person out (aloud, not in actuality), tell yourself that he or she is obviously mentally inept, and write an email or two in which you tell them how idiotic they are (just don't send them). Once that's out of your system, it's much easier to look at their remarks objectively and see if what they're saying holds merit.

For the record, I cried after my first thorough critique. :-D

You posted two works to SYW and I could see nothing wrong with how people responded. Critiques, by defintion, focusses on problems. No one every said anything like crap, they made very specific suggestions about how you might improve the work. This can make them seem negative when it is, in fact, someone taking time out of their day to try and help a fellow writer. Some people do not like to critique out in an open forum and do better in smaller, more personal groups such as yahoogroups or by hooking up with a critique partner and critiquing via email.

Oh, yeah. That first solid critique is HARD! Ours happened to come from the editor after we got accepted. It was 23 SINGLE-SPACED pages of what we did wrong and what had to be fixed in order for her to publish it!

I still remember the first line: "Even though I really like this, I think a lot of my comments would go away if we changed it from first person to third person." Rewrite the WHOLE BOOK?! Um...

Thankfully, we elected to make the rest of the changes instead. Whew. Yeah, a thick skin is nearly required in this business. It IS a business, which is sometimes hard to remember when the muse is with you.

Hang in there. I'll spin by in the morning. Need to go take a long soak after a hard day of unpacking. But we're nearly back in our house! (Yeah, still dealing with the house fire from before Christmas. Sigh...)

I think, also, you have to be ready for the harshest critiques. You reach a certain point in your writing where you're LOOKING for someone to rip it apart so they can find the pieces you're missing.

I joined a few crit groups too early in my writing experience, and it hurt my feelings when they'd rip apart my stuff. I stopped for a long time, too. Now (several years down the line) I actively look for people to be hard on my work, because frankly, "OMG I love it!" doesn't help you with plot or grammar or anything at all.

Take everything they say with an objective eye, as well. You're posting your stuff and saying "OK, find out what's wrong with it." And now that they're looking for stuff actively, they're going to nitpick down to the last detail.

To go along with Cathy's experience of her first critique, Lisa Gardner, when she went from category books to a lead, single-title book, had written her break-out book, and the publisher bought it, and then announced "Scene X is good, but we pretty much want you to rewrite the entire rest of the book" and she spent something like a year rewriting it, and sent it in, and they said, "yeah, about a dozen scenes are good now, but you need to rewrite the rest of it." And she did. Spent about two years, IIRC, rewriting the thing, over and over.

She was pretty freaked out at the time, b/c she'd sold several category books before that and she had a good handle on craft (or so she thought; and I think her craftsmanship now is extraordinary), so it wasn't like it was her first sale, her first manuscript or even her first set of revisions. But they were asking for massive changes. In the long run, she says she learned a lot, and the final book was better, and she now routinely hits the bestseller lists (without two years of revisions!), so it did work out in the long run. But it was a tough, confidence-busting couple of years.

JD

I think the trick is to be specific. Ask people what they think of your MC, or does the dialogue flow? Ask them to be exact in describing what works for them and what doesn't.

I've only just plucked up the courage to post in SYW after a year and a half! Some of the responses you get will resonate with you, making you think, "Yeah...that's my opinion too; I just didn't know how to articulate it and I'll adjust my WIP accordingly."

Other times you'll think, "No! You're completely missing the point!" In which case, you have to decide whether or not your artistic vision would be compromised by monkeying about with the parts of your manscript under discussion.

If someone points out mistakes in technicalities like grammar or spelling, pay attention. If they give their opinion, it's up to you what to do. If, however, someone says something like, "This point wasn't clear," or "I don't understand why Character A did this or that," some clarification is obviously needed and a writer would do well to tweak his manuscript some more.

I've posted semi regularly in SYW and done a few critiques. It's a subjective forum and, yes...sometimes there are people who are blunt, tactless and heavy handed in their opinions.

You do need to have, or grow, a thick skin to look beyond those responses.

There is this thread: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38898 that should be read first, before you start posting in SYW. You'll save yourself a lot of grief. Many of the regulars who critique in SYW explain their likes and dislikes of what is posted there.

Don't get into the habit of throwing a first draft out and revising it within minutes of a suggestion. Post the piece, let it sit for a few days or a week, then come back to see what was said. Respond to each person by asking questions and don't flame. Rules for SYW here: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43652

Good luck with future posts there. It's a valuable forum if used properly.

I can't get into the Share Your Work board. <sigh> I don't know why, I've tried countless things.

Hearing crits can be really hard at first. I cried at first. <G> (Not where anyone could see me. <G>) I was lucky to have good critters from the very beginning, back in my fanfic days. But it's hard to hear. I am one of those perfectionist people, and let's face it, there's no such thing as perfect with a ms. That's a tough thing to grasp for someone like me. It's NEVER going to be perfect. Still, we make it the best we can at the time.

Those first crits helped me thicken my skin, try to learn that "fix this" doesn't mean: "you did it WRONG, you are a FAILURE."

Still, when I got my first set of line edits (line edits are different from revisions) back, I was incredibly disheartened. I cried again. <G> Honestly, in a 320 page ms, there was ONE PAGE that hadn't been touched in some way. ONE PAGE. <G> Paragraphs, even whole pages slashed, stuff rewritten, words changed, etc. I thought, man, why did they buy this book if it sucks so badly? LOL.

I finally got the courage up to ask the other Superromance authors about my experience. Yeah. Turns out I was not alone, that this was just how Super did line edits. Heavy for everyone. Phew. It wasn't me! I didn't suck dishwater! Phew. What a relief. I also learned to warn any new Super authors to expect this when they get their first line edits. It's so much easier to deal with when you know it's coming, and you know it's not just you. (I have been thanked for this service by the newbies I've prepared. Forewarned is forearmed.)

Good crits are really valuable, even if they do sting at first. There's a new Super author who sold after I gave her a crit that involved creating a whole new opening for her book. Originally she opened with a news article that relayed the hero's disappearence. I recommend she actually SHOW that scene. (The article was TELLING. A scene would be SHOWING, much more dynamic.) She considered what I said, decided my comment had merit, and went ahead and wrote a new scene. She entered the revised ms in a contest that Laura Shin, Senior Ed at Super, was judging. Laura liked it enough to ask to see the ms, liked it enough to ask Ellen to do some revisions, which Ellen DID, and eventually she bought the ms.

Isn't that the goal?

So growing a thick skin is an important thing for a writer. That's not to say crits (or reviews! <G>) will never sting in the future. You'll just handle the sting better. (With drinks and cookies. <G> Chocolate. And you wonder why many writers tend toward a few extra pounds??? LOL.)

Susan G.

Susan Gable said:

I can't get into the Share Your Work board. <sigh> I don't know why, I've tried countless things.

Click to expand...

Hmm. Are you positive you're typing the password correctly?

chibeth said:

Hmm. Are you positive you're typing the password correctly?

Click to expand...

Yep. Repeatedly. I've heard of other folks with the same problem. Although I haven't tried to get in since we upgraded the place. I shall try again.

Susan G.

Susan Gable said:

Yep. Repeatedly. I've heard of other folks with the same problem. Although I haven't tried to get in since we upgraded the place. I shall try again.

Susan G.

Click to expand...

AHA! The upgrade seems to have taken care of whatever glitch I was encountering. (Of course, my success may be only temporary. Technology is great when it works right. <G>)

Susan G.

Susan Gable said:

AHA! The upgrade seems to have taken care of whatever glitch I was encountering. (Of course, my success may be only temporary. Technology is great when it works right. <G>)

Susan G.

Click to expand...

And of course it only works right about 20% of the time.

I've done a few critiques on SYW, and while they might be considered harsh, I try to let the writer know that this is exactly what they would get from a professional editor (and another writer) in the genre.

I also have let writers know that my early stuff was so toxic that it glowed in the dark, so they're ahead of me. It took years to get my million words of drek out of my brain. Had there been a SYW forum available back then it might have speeded the process.

Those who post in SYW to hear how good it is are in for a rude wake up call.

Those who post to figure out what needs fixing can really get good help.

I'll add my own little WTF moment when I took down a lengthy critique. First, I judged it to be too harsh and not help the young writer at all; she was just too green to benefit.

Second, I figured out her work was too-thinly disguised fan fiction--which is not allowed on the board. Changing the last name of a highly recognizable film character just doesn't cut it.

I felt as though she'd wasted my time. She, on the other hand, sent a highly emotional "That wasn't nice" mail, accusing me of not showing her the same respect that I'd extended to others. After all, I'd not taken down those critiques!

It was the first time I got chewed out for NOT ripping something to bloody shreds!



She left a couple dramatic "good-bye forever" notes, then soundly flounced off the forum. That'll show us!

Standing by my original thought: she's just too green to benefit from a pro-level critique.

And just so ya know, I still take my stuff to workshops, and get my literary a&& kicked around like a soccer ball.

Just last night I was in an idea-bouncing session and now have to rewrite everything on something I thought was going very well. It's not just tweaking a word here and there, it's stripping the bare bones down to the DNA level and reconstructing the whole beast.

While I have fantastic characters, dialogue, and action I sorta forgot to hang it all on a some kind of a--urm--uhhh-- *plot*.

Now that's just embarrassing!

There's also always the 'take it or leave it' aspect. I've actually been thrown out of a poetry workshop for my work being obviously sub-par. I later sold exactly the same poem, unchanged to a book by Ten Speed press. Critiques normally have something useful to say--but we all have out biasses. It can be useful to also work with a person or small group within your target genre.