"Here's how I would write this..."

this is a major point i have about poetry critique in general. most crits are, by their nature, a case of "how i would have written it".

i would submit that this is part and parcel of the problem with reading books on "how to write" poetry (dovetailing with the other thread...)

wordsheff said:

Haha, William, are you kidding?!?!? I have read 5 of them at least, and countless ars poetica essays, and never once have I felt the need to impose what I would do on another's work.

Cheap shot, William, cheap shot!

Click to expand...

i think you misunderstood my point, but we can move on.

That's something I try to never do with someone else's piece. It's not my piece to rewrite unless they ask that specifically. I may rearrange something so it flows better, but as far as changing content I try not to do that. Even in a situation where there could/ should be a color change I'd stay within the same color family since that's the way they're seeing it. Other than that I'd look at the structure and those elements piecing it together. I'd be as fair as possible, and if I just don't like it I just don't like it.

Well, as one who is pretty darn guilty of this practice I'll say what I always say: I don't do it to say look at how much better I would write this. I do it because I have to make it make sense to me. I usually explain what I'm trying to do with each change and why I would make it. And in the end I try to remind them that this is just a different perspective that hopefully illuminates something about their work as seen through other eyes. One of the inherent problems with a rewritten critique is it will always be flawed--weaker to some extent. Rather than thinking of it as the same mountain shifted, think of it as another mountain from which to look back at the original work. Does that help it make more sense?

i just firmly believe that the critic is very much an external and non-vital component of the experience of writing, publishing and reading poetry.

when i post a crit, it's normally i like it and sometimes the lines that i like, and then sometimes, i'll post suggestions on it.

the reason i post suggestions isn't 'this is how i would write it', it's 'this is how i read it, and maybe it would work better like this',

but there's one things i always have in mind when reading poetry (if the poet's any good), every word was (or should have been) chosen for a reason. and that is what makes the poem the poets.

Godfather said:

... and that is what makes the poem the poets.

Click to expand...

I would have written it this way: "...and that's what makes it the poet's poem."

(that's a joke, son)

Godfather makes a very good point when he says "(if the poet's any good), every word was (or should have been) chosen for a reason. and that is what makes the poem the poets".

Unless stated otherwise, (as a WIP), any thing I post in either the Critique or Chapbook Forums, is, in fact, a "finished" poem and I don't expect any comments made about it to result in any changes, (other than minor ones relative to punctuation or spacing), but I do appreciate and respect those comments because they let me see how others "read" my poems, and that can give me insight, (and hopefully understanding) of what others are looking for in the Poetry they read, and that is something I can utilize in creating any "future" poems, and thus help me to "grow" in my writing, and that's not a bad thing.

I sincerely hope that anyone takes any "critiques" I post in the same way, (even when I am quite specific in suggesting changes), because I think that seeing other perspectives can be extremely valuable to any who write, whether they result in changes or not.

Jim Hoye (JRH)

I think you have to be very careful about taking suggestions because the one doing the suggesting may not know squat about poetry. Also, when you are given suggestions, consider if you like the work of the person making the suggestion. Why would anyone take suggestions from someone's work who they didn't admire or even think of as any good? Some critics are better than others. Some are no good at all. I'd only take suggestions from people if they had these qualifications:

1. Were well read. If a person doesn't understand what has been written, why it's good, what's being written now, and how it's similar and different from what's been done, than they have no business telling you how to write. They need to study their art.
2. Person has written work you admire. If they haven't, why would you listen to them?

wordsheff said:

That's actually hilarious

Click to expand...

Glad SOMEBODY thought it was funny. (I just crack myself up sometimes)

I post a poem to a workshop either 1) because it has flaws and I have a blind spot on how to overcome those flaws, or 2) because I think it's bloody good and want to know how some critically minded people see it. If I think a poem is finished, and don't want to make any changes to it, why would I post it to a workshop? I would post it to a vanity site or a showcase board.

So, I am interested in knowing anything any critter wants to say about my poem, and would never suggest what type of critique I want. Almost always the critters hone in on the spots I know are flawed. Their suggestions may or may not work, but they show me other ways I might go, which may then get my brain in gear and find the fix to the flaw. How limited the help from statements such as, "Line 6 has a flaw in it," or "Your second stanza doesn't speak to me."

So I think it is perfectly acceptable to suggest: changes in wording; changes in punctuation; reorganization of strophes; point out flaws in meter and other poetic devices; suggest adding poetic devices; commenting on interpretation; commenting on overall level of excellence; etc. All critique is nothing more than opinion. Ultimately, the poet must decide whose opinion carries the most weight. The poet should reject the advice in any critique that has missed the poet's intent for the poem.

If I think I can use what the critter suggests, I'll say thanks and go take some time and see how I can use it. If I can't use what they suggest, I'll thank them for their time and move on. If they trash the poem or offer suggestions that are totally inconsistent with my intent, I will thank them for their time and move on. If they are rude and abusive, I'll thank them for reading my poem and move along.

The poet begins with a blank sheet of paper, and records his/her thoughts, taking the poem from 0% to perhaps 90 or 95%. The greats will be able to get it that other 5 or 10% with no help from a critter, though they will likely need a pause for reflection and "stewing" over what is written. I know I do.

I agree that instant revisions are normally pointless. To receive a suggestion from a critter and incorporate it into the poem without first ruminating on it, perhaps for weeks or months, is not wise.

NDG

Regardless of how finished a Poem might be, the comments one receives on a "Critique" or "Workshop" board as opposed to a "Showcase" are likely to be very different in their nature, but both can be informative and useful in providing feedback, either in correcting flaws or evaluating how effective one has been in getting one's message across.

In either case, it's up to the Poet how he might view such, and what he might do with it, if anything, and that's as it should be,

Thru "feedback", we grow, because "fresh" perspectives bring "new" insights.

JRH

I've yet to put up a poem for comments--nor any prose for that matter. But I figure if somebody's offering it up he'd like to hear what the reader has to say. This crap about, "but it's my poem and this is how I experienced it" is bullshit. You experienced a certain significance in something and then you attempted to put it into words. The reader will gauge your experience by the way you WROTE it. Also, there really aren't that many interpretations when it comes to a good poem. There may be facets of it that the audience/critic will disagree with, but there's a certain universality to a a written piece that has to hit you. Craft it well and you got yourself a good poem.

After years and years of submitting my artwork to often brutal classroom critiques, I've come to this conclusion:

The value of a critique is to see how well your message has been communicated to the audience. Even though ten different readers may interpret a piece ten different ways, in my experience, it's more likely that six of them will have a similar response. If that response is in the general vicinity of what you were after, then you can consider a piece done. If not, then you can decide whether to change your piece or to go find ten more people to ask.

I come from the perspective that art - any art - is communication. As such, there is value to getting feedback on how your message is being received. It is entirely up to you as to what to do with that knowledge.

Two points:

1. Effective communication is hardly a "mere" thing.

2. If I implied that art is only communication, that was my error. However, in my view, it is a large part of it.

wordsheff said:

The problem with that idea, pconsidine, is that this reply could be considered art if it was merely communication.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm not understanding. Is there anyway you can expand on that, wordsheff?

JRH said:

Godfather makes a very good point when he says "(if the poet's any good), every word was (or should have been) chosen for a reason. and that is what makes the poem the poets".

Unless stated otherwise, (as a WIP), any thing I post in either the Critique or Chapbook Forums, is, in fact, a "finished" poem and I don't expect any comments made about it to result in any changes, (other than minor ones relative to punctuation or spacing), but I do appreciate and respect those comments because they let me see how others "read" my poems, and that can give me insight, (and hopefully understanding) of what others are looking for in the Poetry they read, and that is something I can utilize in creating any "future" poems, and thus help me to "grow" in my writing, and that's not a bad thing.

Click to expand...

Jim has said very eloquently what I also believe. When I post, I don't intend to change much, but I would like to know if what I think I'm saying is what people are getting from it. Some poems are intended to just put the poet's thoughts down in print, but others are intended to evoke a response from the reader.

I have some definite principles that I follow when I critique poems. I only critique those poems that I really like and feel like I understand (I'll be honest, there are many that I just don't understand!). I try to always say why I like the poems. My most frequent comments are to point out things within the poem that jar me out of the feeling the rest of the poem puts me in. I don't like to suggest re-wording, but if I feel that a "disruptive" (to me) phrase isn't necessary, I'll suggest just removing it, but only after carefully re-reading the poem leaving it out and feeling that it didn't affect my enjoyment or interpretation.

Rich said:

Sorry, I'm not understanding. Is there anyway you can expand on that, wordsheff?

Click to expand...

Rich,

I think sheff is drawing the false conclusion that, since I said all art is communication, I also believe that all communication is therefore art.




(Still trying to figure out why people on message boards always think I'm female, though.)