Since there is a long, long...LONG thread about Tolkien

Silverhand · Jan 24, 2007

...I wanted to get the ball rolling here with a topic I think most fantasy authors here can relate too. So, you don't like Tolkien and you despise Robert Jordan? But, you do like Stephen Donaldson? Ok OK, that is fair enough...different books for different people.

The question I pose tonight is this: For those people writing novels in the "Epic Fantasy" vein...who else would you recommend to read?

This is strictly as referrence for those authors who may not like reading the big T.

Oh, lets make this a challenge for those who reply. I want to know why they are special enough to be used as a solid "epic fantasy" referrence.

Discuss...

JDCrayne · Jan 24, 2007

"The Well at the World's End," by William Morris -- because it is an epic quest adventure that predates Tolkien and will give readers the flavor of 19th Century fantasy.

finch · Jan 24, 2007

Reference for epic fantasy? All righty then, here's what I'd pick off the top of my head.

The Poetic Edda
The Mabinogion
The Popol Vuh
Gilgamesh
And what the heck, if you can find a copy of Le Morte D'Arthur with the Beardsley prints, add that to the list.

Why? At least, because that stuff is where so much of it all comes from.

(edit: can't forget Beowulf. Well, you can, and I did, but you shouldn't)
(edit^2: I completely blanked on the Iliad/Aeneid/Odyssey. Should probably go without saying, and unfortunately it did, but they definitely should be on the list, too.)

farfromfearless · Jan 24, 2007

finch said:
And what the heck, if you can find a copy of Le Morte D'Arthur with the Beardsley prints, add that to the list.

Have it. Love it. Beaten up as it is, I loved the language, beautifully told.

It's too early in the AM for me to mentally sift through my book collection, but I know I have some great ones in there. I would love to add Terry Brook's Heritage of Shannara (following the original trilogy) - though I accept that many folks don't consider Brooks to really be in the vein of Epic fantasy. I tend to disagree.

dclary · Jan 24, 2007

I love Stephen Donaldson, for the fantastic vocabulary, and a sense of melodrama unrivaled in modern fiction.

blacbird · Jan 25, 2007

Addendum to Finch: The Book of a Thousand Nights and a Night, translated by Sir Richard F. Burton (16 volumes). By any standard one of the major pieces of world literature.

caw

thethinker42 · Jan 25, 2007

I'm a bigtime Sara Douglass fan. I'm on book 4 of the Wayfarer Redemption series, and it's amazing. I've read books in her other series as well, in addition to one of her stand-alones. LOVE THEM.

glutton · Jan 25, 2007

While his stuff is more "heroic fantasy" than straight Tolkien-style epic/high fantasy, I can't not mention David Gemmell in this. His books do tend to great quests with a wide scope and told from the viewpoint of many characters, so close enough... He was truly a master in both character- and world-building, not to mention great pacing.

Deleted member 42 · Jan 25, 2007

finch said:
Reference for epic fantasy? All righty then, here's what I'd pick off the top of my head.

The Poetic Edda
The Mabinogion
The Popol Vuh
Gilgamesh
And what the heck, if you can find a copy of Le Morte D'Arthur with the Beardsley prints, add that to the list.

Why? At least, because that stuff is where so much of it all comes from.

(edit: can't forget Beowulf. Well, you can, and I did, but you shouldn't)
(edit^2: I completely blanked on the Iliad/Aeneid/Odyssey. Should probably go without saying, and unfortunately it did, but they definitely should be on the list, too.)

I'd include Beowulf, Odyssey, Illiad, as epic fantasy, but not Gilgamesh, or Malory, or the Mabinogion.

Malory is romance; that's the genre. The Mabinogion is a bizarre anthology of tales of three different types, and honestly, closer to romance than epic--there are no huge battles, for instance.

There's brilliant essay by Debra Doyle on SF Genre Rant. Go read it.

JBI · Jan 25, 2007

Why not toss in there Canterbury Tales, Classical Children's and Household tales by the Brothers Grimm, Theogony, Oedipus Tyrannos, Antigone and Elektra, Bacchae and Medea, Argonautica, or some variation on Herakles.

While tossing around there, I would add almost anything by Guy Gavriel Kay, especially A Song for Arbonne, also I would throw in some other classical Arthur books.

Generally though, I feel most of the stuff I get inspired from isn't fantasy. I would say 60% of my inspiration is from Greek mythology, 20% from epic fantasy, and the rest from classics.

Tolkien isn't important, you are better off reading authors who have excellent writing styles. That way you will have a better feel for writing. World building is easy once you get the hang of it, writing is more difficult.

Shadow_Ferret · Jan 25, 2007

Where would EB White's Once and Future King (Sword in the Stone) fit in?

ETA: TH White. I've been corrected. Stupid initials and same color!

finch · Jan 25, 2007

Medievalist said:
I'd include Beowulf, Odyssey, Illiad, as epic fantasy, but not Gilgamesh, or Malory, or the Mabinogion.

Malory is romance; that's the genre. The Mabinogion is a bizarre anthology of tales of three different types, and honestly, closer to romance than epic--there are no huge battles, for instance.

There's brilliant essay by Debra Doyle on SF Genre Rant. Go read it.

You raise an interesting point. I was going to say I agree 100% with you on classification, but going back to the OP, stick to my selections as elements of those tales have found their way into modern epic fantasy -- and thus are excellent reference sources. I stopped short of that, though, because I honestly haven't done the research -- so that reaction is no more than a gut feeling. The Mabinogion was turned into the Chronicles of Prydain, for instance -- does that qualify as epic?

(Edit: all that said, there's little question that fantasy as a genre is a fairly direct descendant of medieval romance, so I wonder if drawing the distinction you do on Le Morte may be a bit too fine a point. Also, the definition set forth in that rant -- "a prose narrative treating imaginary characters involved in events remote in time or place and usually heroic, adventurous, or mysterious" -- is too broad to exclude any fantasy whatsoever, so I'm not really sure where to draw the line you imply we're crossing. I defer to your scholarship, but I need more information to understand the detail.)

Momento Mori · Jan 25, 2007

Silverhand:
For those people writing novels in the "Epic Fantasy" vein...who else would you recommend to read?

No one's mentioned The Belgariad by David Eddings. I know that much of his latest writing has essentially been a rehash of this series, but I think that the original still stands up as a well written epic that works pretty well over the five book structure.

Silverhand · Jan 25, 2007

Excellent information here, guys / gals.

I have seen a few modern novels mentioned in this discussion...but not enough. Considering that most societal tastes change every 10-20 years, what other "modern" epic fantasies of quality are there?

Oh, and...can a book be both a "heroic fantasy" / "romantic fantasy" / "urban fantasy" / etc AND be an "epic fantasy" at same time? If so, would this allow more classics or modern fantasy to be included in this list?

As for me, and maybe these wouldn't necessarily be Tolkienish types of epic fantasy, but I love The Serpeantwar Saga Series by Raymond Fiest and The Dragonlance Chronicles (I know this might be more heroic..but it is set on a epic scale. I also know many people here hate M. Weiess. /shrugs)

JBI · Jan 25, 2007

Momento Mori said:
No one's mentioned The Belgariad by David Eddings. I know that much of his latest writing has essentially been a rehash of this series, but I think that the original still stands up as a well written epic that works pretty well over the five book structure.

Funny you mention that.

I can see how people can enjoy the series (I found it absolutly terrible), but in terms of usefulness to help a writer, I would urge everyone to stay away from this one.

There are two major opinions about this series. First of all, one is that it is an excellent tale of a young boy growing up.

The other, the one I follow, is that this series is absolute rubbish. The characters are flat, the world building is flat, and and by the time you finish it, you want to kill all the protagonists. (not to mention the lame ending)

Even if you enjoy the series though, in terms of usefulness to world building, this series wont help you.

Momento Mori · Jan 25, 2007

Yeah but what do you really think, JBI.

I don't think The Belgariad is a great work of fantasy by any means, but it has an entertainment value and the story carries over the 5 books pretty well (which is more than I can say for some trilogies). I think the fight scenes and battles are pretty well handled and whilst he uses broad brush strokes to differentiate his kingdoms and the bad guys from the good guys, it's more than some other fantasy writers manage to do. Reading it helps you to work out what you don't like and don't want to do, as much as it can help you work out what you do want to do.

Interestingly, its latest reprint is being pitched in the YA section of my local bookstore and I think that it probably is more appealing to teenagers just getting into the genre than to people who've already read around a bit.

alaskamatt17 · Jan 25, 2007

Would George R. R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series count? It has a lot more political intrigue than epic battles, but it seems about as close to Tolkienesque epic fantasy as most of the books on this thread.

One that I would definitely recommend is Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn trilogy (First book: The Dragonbone Chair) Definitely fits in the epic category, and it's well-executed, even if the story contains many generic elements. As an added bonus, unlike certain series by Terry Goodkind and Robert Jordan, it actually ends.

MattW · Jan 25, 2007

I go with my standard two - Steven Erikson and R Scott Bakker. Not even close to Tolkien, but epic in my mind.

Anyone have a concise definition of "epic fantasy?"

RG570 · Jan 25, 2007

I'd say Michael Moorcock's Elric saga is my favourite example of epic fantasy. It has everything I like about fantasy and none of the stuff I hate.

Deleted member 42 · Jan 25, 2007

finch said:
The Mabinogion was turned into the Chronicles of Prydain, for instance -- does that qualify as epic?

No, the Mabinogion wasn't turned into the Chronicles of Prydain; Alexander used the Welsh Triads, and to a lesser extent the Mabinogi, for names and a few motifs, but there's no direct retelling of any of the tales.

(Edit: all that said, there's little question that fantasy as a genre is a fairly direct descendant of medieval romance, so I wonder if drawing the distinction you do on Le Morte may be a bit too fine a point.

It's certainly immaterial in the context of Dr. Doyle's "rant," but in the original context, where Malory was described as an epic, well, it's just not.

Interestingly, Malory was not favored, at all, by Tolkien.

Rabe · Jan 25, 2007

Imelda said:
Ooooooooh! I can't believe I forgot!

Anything by Neil Gaiman. The man is a genius.

I believe the point was 'epic fantasy' which Gaiman most definitely is not.

The man is a genius, but 'epic fantasy' he is not.

And I agree with whoever said that Eddings could be used as a model for learning to write good epic fantasy. But only until the writer reaches the third grade and then it's all crap junk. I can't believe people still read this crap - but then again the TSR schleck novels also sell well proving that people will read anything with wizards and swords.

Rabe...

finch · Jan 25, 2007

Medievalist said:
No, the Mabinogion wasn't turned into the Chronicles of Prydain; Alexander used the Welsh Triads, and to a lesser extent the Mabinogi, for names and a few motifs, but there's no direct retelling of any of the tales.

That is my point, though; even if they were used to a lesser extent, at least some of their elements have been reworked into a modern fantasy -- not retold, but borrowed and manipulated. I'm not trying to explicitly map epic source to epic output, just trace elements that have been used or borrowed for the modern epic fantasy.

Medievalist said:
It's certainly immaterial in the context of Dr. Doyle's "rant," but in the original context, where Malory was described as an epic, well, it's just not.

Again, my intent wasn't to identify Malory's work as an epic, but as an influence on modern epic output. Apologies if this was conveyed inefficiently.

JDCrayne · Jan 25, 2007

finch said:
And what the heck, if you can find a copy of Le Morte D'Arthur with the Beardsley prints, add that to the list.

I have a numbered Kelmscott. I bought it in 1963 for twenty bucks. *gloat*

Deleted member 42 · Jan 25, 2007

JDCrayne said:
I have a numbered Kelmscott. I bought it in 1963 for twenty bucks. *gloat*

I hate you

JDCrayne · Jan 25, 2007

Shadow_Ferret said:
Where would EB White's Once and Future King (Sword in the Stone) fit in?

ETA: TH White. I've been corrected. Stupid initials and same color!

Parody, but it's amusing.

A lot of authors have done take-offs on the Arthurian tales. I always enjoyed the Blatant Beast and the fewmets.

Since there is a long, long...LONG thread about Tolkien

Silverhand

JDCrayne

Indonesian Yak Keeper

finch

farfromfearless

dclary

Unabashed Mercenary

blacbird

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author

glutton

Deleted member 42

JBI

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester

finch

Momento Mori

Tired and Disillusioned

Silverhand

JBI

Momento Mori

Tired and Disillusioned

alaskamatt17

MattW

Company Man

RG570

Deleted member 42

Rabe

the living dead

finch

JDCrayne

Indonesian Yak Keeper

Deleted member 42

JDCrayne

Indonesian Yak Keeper