Loading the Literary Canon

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a tree of night

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The library thread up in Writing Novels rekindled my ire toward the literary canon of the American education system. I can't speak to the nature of other systems, and my personal experience is from being in public schools in the 70s and 80s. I also have some second-hand knowledge of what is taught currently, as my wife taught in both public and private elementary schools and preschools through 2005, my mother-in-law taught at a public high school level until her retirement last year, and my sister-in-law currently works in the office of a public junior high. Finally, I've got a whole bunch of nieces and nephews in various stages of public elementary-junior high. It's not in any way a comprehensive view of the American school system, but I think it's likely a fairly representative one. Your mileage may vary.

This is what I have noted :

Once you get past the very basic levels of reading, at about the junior high/middle school level, and into high school, the literary selections, for the most part, fall into some fairly rigid categories.

1) They are all originally written in English, almost exclusively by American or British authors. This always confounded me as a child. Here we are learning about the world at large in every class, yet we are spoonfed an incredibly limited subset of literature. Sure, you can learn all about the Czech republic in history, Dvorak in music, and Mach in science, but when it's time for lit, don't go looking for the Capeks.

Still, I can see reasons for that particular failing. If you need translations, everyone needs to have the same translation. And somebody has to decide which translation to use. It's more work that somebody has to do. It's not a good excuse, but I could see where there might be hesitation.

2) Outside of Shakespeare (and even within Shakespeare, to an extent), works tend to be fairly simplistic in both vocabulary and style (Hemingway is a prime example). Neither of those particularly bother me, mind you, and, in fact, I am very fond of quite a few authors that fit that description. However, there are other styles out in the world, and, yes, your honors level kids in high school are able to read those big words, make sense of complex sentences, and follow intricate plots. Speaking of plots...

3) Plots and characters tend to be simple and direct. Some (me) would call them forced. (I'm looking at you, Melville. Billy Budd? Billy Budd?!) Symbolism, which is everywhere, is blatant and impossible to miss. This is the one that makes me believe that the "literary canon" has nothing to do with actual literature, but rather the teaching of the analysis of literature. If a brilliant book came along that had, God forbid, subtle symbolism, and half the class didn't pick up on it and stared blankly ahead when it was explained, it wouldn't serve the purpose. So we get Joe Christmas. Try to miss that one. Go ahead, I dare you.

Furthermore, themes tend toward things academians believe children can relate to and comprehend. That's why we get Romeo and Juliet (ugh) and not King Lear or some other far superior work.

4) Novels and short stories rule the day. Poetry gets an occasional blip. Drama is limited to Shakespeare, because, as we all know, he was the only one that ever wrote a play. The only essays you'll ever read in school are the ones that you write for tests. Some other forms of writing are available, but not presented as literature. You have biographies, histories, and scientific texts, but they are offered strictly as informational.

5) The canon never changes. It's the same now as it was when I was in school. It's the same now as when my father was in school. I'm pretty sure some perfectly valid literature has come along since my father was in high school. I bet some of it even fits the other criteria of American or Brits writing simple, direct stories in English. But those stories never seem to slip in. The odd thing here is that they do work their way in at the lowest levels. There seems to be a pretty good influx of new material in the elementary schools, at least.

Relating back to the library thread, this is part of the danger of not weeding out those books that nobody reads. How many great books are out there in the world that could replace them, but never see the light of day, because we need seven copies of The Pickwick Papers collecting dust on the shelf?

I believe there are several ugly consequences of this narrow selection of literature. Most people would see the biggest problem is that it turns a lot of kids away from what they think is literature when they might have otherwise enjoyed it if they had a little broader selection. I do believe that is a problem, but I also know firsthand that a motivated reader can hate damn near everything they read in school (to the point where they still foam at the mouth ranting about it years later) and still find good literature elsewhere. To me, the biggest tragedy is that some people who do enjoy the types of works that are taught in school often accept that they are indeed the gold standard of literature. This can lead them to either eschew other kinds of literature or to be completely indiscriminatory.

Anyway, for those that were interested, that's my three cents on the subject. You may fire when ready.
 

The Lady

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I completely agree with you. That's a very long post. I haven't the strength to write so much but I'll just ask (and bear in mind, that after school, I then went on and did English Lit in college) why the great genre works are completley ignored while we have to wade through depressed, self obsessed tomes by semi suicidal people.
 

PeeDee

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Yeah, that Herman Melville sure was simplistic. I don't know WHY he's in the schools. I wish they'd take him out of the libraries! I don't want my kids reading silly Hermen Melville!

Hopefully they get that Victor Hugo bloke out too, 'cause he was no good eiver.

...

....Fast forward to college English classes when your teacher is having a half an hour discussion (mostly with herself) about the symbolism of the turtle crossing the road in The Grapes of Wrath (by another one of those annoying American guys, that Steinback boy) and you're sitting there with your eyes trying to crawl out of your skull, wonder how much trouble you'd get in if you stood up and shouted "It's a turtle! IT'S JUST A TURTLE!"
 

PeeDee

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I think that what you do is, you teach the kids using books that will not totally lose the kids. If someone had presented me with Les Miserables in high school or junior high (and someone did) then I would probably get ten minutes into it and throw it down, confused and boggled.

You teach the kids with books they can read. IF reading is something they love and wish to pursue, thent hey find books in the rest of the world. If they want better books in school, then they take classes where they get to read and analyze all sorts of wonderful books, which they probably would enjoy a lot more if they didn't have to write papers on it.

The variety of books is different from school to school, too. The high school in Elko, Nevada generally has kids watching television instead of reading. For political classes or social studies, they watched Law and Order (which disgusted me no end.)

On the other hand, in school, I read Ray Bradbury's Martain Chronicles and Something wicked this way comes, and the Illiad and Odyssey and A Canticle for Leibowitz and a LOT of books that I can't remember or even begin to keep in my head.

ETA: If I sound like I'm defending the Public School system, know that it's only a very tiny and partial defense. Mostly, I think they're damn silly idiots quite a lot of the time.
 

a tree of night

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PeeDee said:
On the other hand, in school, I read Ray Bradbury's Martain Chronicles and Something wicked this way comes, and the Illiad and Odyssey and A Canticle for Leibowitz and a LOT of books that I can't remember or even begin to keep in my head.

Dang, so I'm just ranting because I went to the wrong schools? Shoot. I actually read all those, but on my own time either out of my parents' collection or from the library or used store.
 

a tree of night

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The Lady said:
I completely agree with you. That's a very long post. I haven't the strength to write so much but I'll just ask (and bear in mind, that after school, I then went on and did English Lit in college) why the great genre works are completley ignored while we have to wade through depressed, self obsessed tomes by semi suicidal people.

Yeah, I tend to ramble when ranting. That's why I try not to do it in other people's threads. Personally, I enjoy some of those depressed, self obssessed tomes by semi (and fully) suicidal people, but hey, you know, once in a while, there is more to life then suicide.
 

a tree of night

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PeeDee said:
Yeah, that Herman Melville sure was simplistic. I don't know WHY he's in the schools. I wish they'd take him out of the libraries! I don't want my kids reading silly Hermen Melville!

Don't get me wrong. That's just a personal rant. I don't expect the literary canon to be changed to suit my tastes, but I do believe that it should be periodically reviewed on the possibility that maybe, just maybe, something new has emerged that is worthwhile.
 

a tree of night

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PeeDee said:
You teach the kids with books they can read. IF reading is something they love and wish to pursue, thent hey find books in the rest of the world. If they want better books in school, then they take classes where they get to read and analyze all sorts of wonderful books, which they probably would enjoy a lot more if they didn't have to write papers on it.

I guess I envision them being able to read a lot more than they are given credit for and if they aren't exposed to different writing styles, they aren't going to know to seek them out.
 

PeeDee

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Sure, and I agree. THe problem is deciding what's suitable to be put into literary canon (whatever that means, I'm afraid). Shall we teach Charles Dickens' Bleak House? What about, as I mentioned, Victor Hugo's Les Miserables? Or is it time to teach Patrick O'Brian as interesting historical fiction?

I would say yes to all three. I bet others would say no. Whereas I think it's a comfortable agreement that kids should read at least SOME version of The Illiad and the Odyssey...
 

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a tree of night said:
I guess I envision them being able to read a lot more than they are given credit for and if they aren't exposed to different writing styles, they aren't going to know to seek them out.

They DO read more than their given credit for, and I think part of that is the lack of credit they're given. If every teacher started deciding just how strongly a kid could read and then pushed them into reading a book that was far and away beyond them, you risk losing that kid to reading.

I'm not suggesting we dumb tone reading, or try to bland it out so no one is put off by anything they read. Screw that.
 

janetbellinger

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I've been a substitute teacher in small town Ontario schools for almost two decades and I consider the language arts programme to damaging to creativity.
 

PeeDee

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There were all sorts of books that I HATED reading in school because...I was reading them for school. This was from when I was young, up through when I was in college. Hated 'em.

OUT of school, they turned out to be magnificant books, and I adore them.

I think that trying to force too much literature and depth down the kids' throats isn't going to do anything but turn them off. It's why I'm in favor of books that the kids can at least get through passably, sot aht when they get out of school, they won't think "Oh gods, READING, I hate these book things..."

...

On another, and perhaps slightly peculiar note...Tree, thank you for coming on here, making your opinion...and then staying around and having a logical and interesting argument about it. I wish that happened more. :)
 

Silver King

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As parents, we shouldn't worry too much about required reading, but rather how we can instill in our children a true love of literature that goes beyond any school's curriculum. For every book a child has to read, they should enjoy at least a dozen others that will help them form a lifelong appreciation for the written word. And when children learn to read early and broadly, they often excel in school, and no amount of required reading will ever sully their taste for literature.
 

PeeDee

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Silver King said:
As parents, we shouldn't worry too much about required reading, but rather how we can instill in our children a true love of literature that goes beyond any school's curriculum. For every book a child has to read, they should enjoy at least a dozen others that will help them form a lifelong appreciation for the written word. And when children learn to read early and broadly, they often excel in school, and no amount of required reading will ever sully their taste for literature.

I agree completely. If my kids are reading primers at school, then I'm probably reading them The Wind in the Willows at home, with voices done right.
 

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Silver King said:
As parents, we shouldn't worry too much about required reading, but rather how we can instill in our children a true love of literature that goes beyond any school's curriculum. For every book a child has to read, they should enjoy at least a dozen others that will help them form a lifelong appreciation for the written word. And when children learn to read early and broadly, they often excel in school, and no amount of required reading will ever sully their taste for literature.

I agree completely. When my kids were 4 and 6 I turned the tv off except for educational programming and saturday morning cartoons. I got them both library cards and every two weeks we went to the library. My son took to reading avidly. My daughter not so much. But at least I put it in front of them. I think it is a parents role to teach their children values and being literate is a big value. I never worried much about what the school made them read because i never let them get anything from the library that was available at school. I too appreciate this thread and the way it is being discussed intelligently.
 

Judg

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Shakespeare? I got Julius Caesar, Hamlet and Macbeth (LOVED it). Novels, nowhere near enough, but I do remember Loneliness of a Long Distance Runner, and To Kill a Mockingbird (that seems to be a staple - my kids got it too, and a very worthy one too at that). Tons of short stories, of course, of which only Flannery O'Connor sticks in my memory. Absolutely riveting.

And a severely abridged version of Les Miserables in grade 8.

I got off pretty good, I suppose, although the teaching was mostly uninspired. But I loved reading so much, it would have taken more than a couple of rotten teachers to kill it.

That was in Saskatchewan in the 70s, for what it's worth.
 

Jerry CL

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It's called catering to the lowest common denominator. Teach anything more complicated than what you've listed and watch the chaos develop.

Why bother when most of the students don't care?
 

PeeDee

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Jerry CL said:
It's called catering to the lowest common denominator. Teach anything more complicated than what you've listed and watch the chaos develop.

Why bother when most of the students don't care?

It's not catering to the lowest denominator. It's catering to the widest number of students possible. You want to attract them, not intimidate them and drive them away. It's different than dumbing everything down. it's reading Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol, which kids are much more likely to adore than Bleak House, you see.

It's teaching the students that there's something beyond all this which they'll eventually care about.
 

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You can't just "teach" someone to like something. School's there to teach the legally-mandated basics, not to condition the students into specific hobbies.

And pardon me for being blunt, but just because you (and probably most of us here) love to read, it doesn't mean that it's universal or needs to be.
 

Jamesaritchie

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a tree of night said:
The library thread up in Writing Novels rekindled my ire toward the literary canon of the American education system. I can't speak to the nature of other systems, and my personal experience is from being in public schools in the 70s and 80s. I also have some second-hand knowledge of what is taught currently, as my wife taught in both public and private elementary schools and preschools through 2005, my mother-in-law taught at a public high school level until her retirement last year, and my sister-in-law currently works in the office of a public junior high. Finally, I've got a whole bunch of nieces and nephews in various stages of public elementary-junior high. It's not in any way a comprehensive view of the American school system, but I think it's likely a fairly representative one. Your mileage may vary.

This is what I have noted :

Once you get past the very basic levels of reading, at about the junior high/middle school level, and into high school, the literary selections, for the most part, fall into some fairly rigid categories.

1) They are all originally written in English, almost exclusively by American or British authors. This always confounded me as a child. Here we are learning about the world at large in every class, yet we are spoonfed an incredibly limited subset of literature. Sure, you can learn all about the Czech republic in history, Dvorak in music, and Mach in science, but when it's time for lit, don't go looking for the Capeks.

Still, I can see reasons for that particular failing. If you need translations, everyone needs to have the same translation. And somebody has to decide which translation to use. It's more work that somebody has to do. It's not a good excuse, but I could see where there might be hesitation.

2) Outside of Shakespeare (and even within Shakespeare, to an extent), works tend to be fairly simplistic in both vocabulary and style (Hemingway is a prime example). Neither of those particularly bother me, mind you, and, in fact, I am very fond of quite a few authors that fit that description. However, there are other styles out in the world, and, yes, your honors level kids in high school are able to read those big words, make sense of complex sentences, and follow intricate plots. Speaking of plots...

3) Plots and characters tend to be simple and direct. Some (me) would call them forced. (I'm looking at you, Melville. Billy Budd? Billy Budd?!) Symbolism, which is everywhere, is blatant and impossible to miss. This is the one that makes me believe that the "literary canon" has nothing to do with actual literature, but rather the teaching of the analysis of literature. If a brilliant book came along that had, God forbid, subtle symbolism, and half the class didn't pick up on it and stared blankly ahead when it was explained, it wouldn't serve the purpose. So we get Joe Christmas. Try to miss that one. Go ahead, I dare you.

Furthermore, themes tend toward things academians believe children can relate to and comprehend. That's why we get Romeo and Juliet (ugh) and not King Lear or some other far superior work.

4) Novels and short stories rule the day. Poetry gets an occasional blip. Drama is limited to Shakespeare, because, as we all know, he was the only one that ever wrote a play. The only essays you'll ever read in school are the ones that you write for tests. Some other forms of writing are available, but not presented as literature. You have biographies, histories, and scientific texts, but they are offered strictly as informational.

5) The canon never changes. It's the same now as it was when I was in school. It's the same now as when my father was in school. I'm pretty sure some perfectly valid literature has come along since my father was in high school. I bet some of it even fits the other criteria of American or Brits writing simple, direct stories in English. But those stories never seem to slip in. The odd thing here is that they do work their way in at the lowest levels. There seems to be a pretty good influx of new material in the elementary schools, at least.

Relating back to the library thread, this is part of the danger of not weeding out those books that nobody reads. How many great books are out there in the world that could replace them, but never see the light of day, because we need seven copies of The Pickwick Papers collecting dust on the shelf?

I believe there are several ugly consequences of this narrow selection of literature. Most people would see the biggest problem is that it turns a lot of kids away from what they think is literature when they might have otherwise enjoyed it if they had a little broader selection. I do believe that is a problem, but I also know firsthand that a motivated reader can hate damn near everything they read in school (to the point where they still foam at the mouth ranting about it years later) and still find good literature elsewhere. To me, the biggest tragedy is that some people who do enjoy the types of works that are taught in school often accept that they are indeed the gold standard of literature. This can lead them to either eschew other kinds of literature or to be completely indiscriminatory.

Anyway, for those that were interested, that's my three cents on the subject. You may fire when ready.

I disagree on nearly every point. Fairly simplistic vocabulary is almost always a sign of great writing. Only bad writers and fools use complicated vocabulary when simple vocabulary nearly always works far better.

And many, many, many novels are short stories are taught that have been translated into English, most notably from Russian and French writers, but also from Spanish speaking writers. They always have been. But who cares? Kids aren't going to have time to read five percent of the great literature written in English. If you want to learn all about the world, take a world history class. If you want to learn all about the greatest literature teh world has ever seen, you read the classics.

Calling the selction narrow is pure nonsense. It isn't narrow by any sense or the word. It's as wide as it's possible to make it. It spans many centuries and many countries, cultures, and languages

I mean, you must have lived a very sheltered youth, and have only been to horrible schools, to believe any of this.

And there's a reason the same works are taught over and over. They're great, wonderful, lasting works, and are still read world over, and still sell incredibly well in countries all over the world, including a great many countries that do not speak English. They ARE teh gold standard.

And it seems to me you haven't read very widely in these works, and certainly not at all deeply. Your notions of symbolism in them is way, way, way off base.

The problem is not the literature that's being taught, it's the incredible ignorance of those who do not read it, or do not want to teach it. You can lead a fool to great books, but you cannot make him read or appreciate them.
 

GPatten

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James, I agree on all of what you’ve said, but mostly this:

Fairly simplistic vocabulary is almost always a sign of great writing. Only bad writers and fools use complicated vocabulary when simple vocabulary nearly always works far better.

Some, but not most, writers seem to like their vocabulary of words I need a dictionary that weighs in at fifty pounds and need to carry in the trunk of my car when mobile.

An author has a better chance to reach a greater amount of readers who love to read the language he can pick up in real life, his real life.
 

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While I didn't love a lot of things I read in school, I discovered others that I do love quite by accident there. Hated Red Badge of Courage. HATED it. Then I discovered Shakespeare. LOVE Shakespeare.

But I did read quite a bit of the things I enjoy on my own. School doesn't really squash the creativity out of you. If you are a creative person, then you simply are. No one can make you be creative and they can't make you stop. It's like hair color. I can disguise it, but I can't really change. I just cover it up. If I forget to cover it up, the gray shows through. But nothing changes the fact that the gray is there. Underneath.
 

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Judg said:
Shakespeare? I got Julius Caesar, Hamlet and Macbeth (LOVED it). Novels, nowhere near enough, but I do remember Loneliness of a Long Distance Runner, and To Kill a Mockingbird (that seems to be a staple - my kids got it too, and a very worthy one too at that). Tons of short stories, of course, of which only Flannery O'Connor sticks in my memory. Absolutely riveting.

I got off pretty good, I suppose, although the teaching was mostly uninspired. But I loved reading so much, it would have taken more than a couple of rotten teachers to kill it.

That was in Saskatchewan in the 70s, for what it's worth.

I think I got off pretty well, too. I remember Night by Elie Wiesel, of course Romeo and Juliet, but also The Raven, some Capote shorts, Of Mice and Men and a Tale of Two Cities. We also read Homer aloud. I hated Of Mice, but because of that I read every other Steinbeck and loved most. Oh, and Michener. We read The Source.

I had a couple of really good English teachers. When we read R & J, we also had to act it out in English class, lights out with candles.
 

Provrb1810meggy

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a tree of night said:
Furthermore, themes tend toward things academians believe children can relate to and comprehend. That's why we get Romeo and Juliet (ugh) and not King Lear or some other far superior work.

I don't see what's wrong with having books that students can relate to. As a high school student, and I think other high schoolers would be the same, I'd enjoy reading and work hard on a story with a theme I get, i.e. young love, gossip, etc. If the other work is "superior," but a student can't get into it because it seems so far off from their life, they won't read, will slack of, and bomb tests.

I do agree with whoever said most English teachers are uninspired. I've had a few good ones, but quite a few have been drab and haven't encouraged creativity.
 
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