The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

[Ed Williams 3]

Subject: TO ALL YOUR DUMB-FACE FELLOW AUTHORS!


Message:

Fellow Authors, If That Be Who You Are:

You don’t know me, nor should you. Anymore than I care who you are! My book “Homage To A Princess” and my father’s nonpareil novel “The Blue Marionette” were published by PA back in 2002. Since then both books have gone nowhere, sold nothing and lie upon the heap-pile of obscurity. My few unwitting friends and relatives, notwithstanding. But so what? What’s it to you? You who have placed your desperate-to-be-published labors of love also in PA’s 7000-author-collective hands?

But I didn’t place our two literary gems into PA’s nonexclusive village of mass-produced authors to make friends, join their authors chat line, sponge admiration from struggling strangers, nor to make PA a bundle of money. Did you?

But as long as I and other authors continue to wrangle cash out of relatives and disparate friends to buy our books so 30 or 40 brainwashed fans can applaud our literary genius and earn us our measly eight percent royalty, hey, what the heck? We’re published authors, right? And now famous celebrities…not only in our in own minds, but in the minds of 30 or 40 unwitting friends and relatives who bought our amateur gems because they so dearly love us and charity is always in vogue! And wasn’t it nice to receive an exceptance letter and be told by any publisher that we’ve written a masterpiece and deserve to have our ego inflated?

Okay, some of you have 50 or perhaps even a hundred friends and relatives to dupe into buying your silly labors of love. And some of you might even be good at getting a bunch of strangers down at the local library or corner bar to delve out some hard-earned cash to read your literary whatever. But get a clue! Seven thousand authors selling their book to fifty or more aunts, uncles, cousins and half-hearted friends hasn’t earned you enough to buy half a new printer to print the next silly labor of love you can’t wait to show off to anyone within ear-shot. But the 92 percent profit from each title our dearly-beloved published earns certainly affords them the cost of sending us regular emails to persuade us to purchase another 40 copies of our books ourselves which to ridiculously sell and market ourselves! But at least we writers who write books just for ourselves to grandstand and buy, can buy them at a discount! Oh you poor, struggling, fellow duped authors! What lousy sales people and marketing wizards you are! Well, PA didn’t write your book for you. Did you think they were going to sell and market it for you?


No, I don’t wish to bust your bubble. Nor persuade you to visit all the online bulletin boards and web sites now parading the complaints and disillusionments of fellow and ex-fellow PA authors who squandered and ruined the once-upon-a-time professional potential and creative opportunity of their now or soon-to-be labors of love floundering in la-la-land obscurity! Not at all. I’m just having a mid-life crisis and wanted to share it with all my fellow la-la-land, genius-in-their-own-minds, self-induced-celebrity idiot authors who’ll be sharing my mid-life crisis soon enough, if you haven’t had the wit already to fall upon your swords!

Oh, by the way, even now a year and a half after my book got paperback published by PA it’s still not available at Barns & Noble nor the supposedly 50,000 Bricks & Mortar book stores existing somewhere on planet earth. And at random I’ve called tons of bookstores from east to west, and not a single one has heard of us or our mass-produced and mass-distributed tomes. Nor was my book available anywhere within the first four months after it was published, not even online. So…so much for four months of ten hours a day marketing and promoting and monetary investment on my part to get libraries, bookstores and other who-could-care-less retailers to order my book. I would have asked all these 6000 entities again to order my book the second time around, but those who hadn’t already had enough of my erroneous, untimely book announcement were simply unable to order a book that wasn’t in print and who all informed me was POD (you know what this is!) and which would take months to acquire, if at all.

And since our two books were never pre-sent or made aware to Publisher’s Weekly and other necessary entities in the industry, not one single damn library would or will order our books, though I did successfully beg one book store to have mercy upon us! They ordered a copy of each of our titles. Still don’t know if they ever received them or if they ever sold. Ingram’s ain’t giving up the ghost. Nor evidently does anyone anywhere on la-la-land earth know anything about two books written by two unknown authors who got published by a publisher who they claim is a POD publisher with 7000 authors no one has every heard of! But I just love those periodic notices from PA boasting of their every growing fame, author commune and financial profits. If only they had one best seller or just one author for whom they toot their own horn! If only I had back the $500 I delved out tooting for them and our two dead-in-their-tracks now worthless labors of love.

So anyway, I’ll survive, but continue my slow death, hope the same for our dearly-beloved publisher, and perhaps even a reality-check for all of you fellow dumb-face authors who deservingly should give a hell less about me and my dying 90-year-old genius father. He spent 60 years writing his masterpiece. But hey, maybe in another 60 years some library might get a copy of it. And I just know how hard PA is working to make this so!

So…find some more friends and relatives, send out some more fliers and business cards to local libraries, corner bars and senior citizen homes and sell a few more copies of your worthless labors of love. You’ll win that Pulitzer eventually! Or every three months earn enough to buy yourself a rum ‘n coke down at the local corner bar! But I mean no insult. Our two labors of love are also worthless now, as I lamented. But hey, we’re published writers and famous small-town celebrities, man! And I’ve got a couple paperback copies of our books and at least $30.00 of royalties to prove it. And a brother, one cousin and three friends who bought our books too. So there!

[emeraldcite]

here's the link for that one, interesting comments follow it. give it 'til tomorrow...

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/3423.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/3423.htm)

[emeraldcite]

gee...not even 24 hours. they're good. real good.

[Ed Williams 3]

...the PA message boards are down...

[FM St George]

so... what sort of comments were posted?

[emeraldcite]

boards are back up, but that thread is gone.

basically when i checked it was the same old same old. Don't crush our dreams, you didn't work hard enough, just because you had a bad experience yadda yadda. (there were somewhere in the vicinity of 40-odd replies). it was brain-washed propaganda, no one try to disprove any of the poster's points, just gave canned responses that he should take his complaints elsewhere, and why post them on the pa board, who was he trying to reach, etc.

i didn't get a chance to see if HB was there to wrangle things in (or challenge him(her) to fisticuffs). but it seemed to be a bunch of regulars jumping on the bandwagon.

[veingloree]

I am trying to realisty check a guy on another list. He insists big publishers pick up POD book and republish them. Has this *ever* happened? I am better $5 that it hasn't happened in the last 5 years more than 10 times.

[James D Macdonald]

Sure, it's happened. Just not very often.

If someone's thinking of publishing with a vanity PoD as a step toward traditional publishing, he or she should be aware that it's a path that will add obstacles rather than take them away.

[FM St George]

I'd think you'd win the bet - turn it back on the guy and ask HIM to name titles and names, thank you very much...

interesting thread that got lost (surprise!) in the middle of all the ranting and raving...

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9689.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9689.htm)

guess PA forgot that in their editing, eh?

*rolls eyes*

[Ed Williams 3]

...yet again, wonder what's going on?

(P.S. There is also an apology from H.B. on there, at least there was yesterday, maybe their message board melted after that happened).

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/3475.htm" target="_new">How Have You Shown Your Gratitude to PA?</a>

[aka eraser]

Jim, you should have posted a warning along with that link: Caution - stomach-churning content - not for the squeamish.

[FM St George]

and yet... doesn't the fact that they need to THANK PublishAmerica for printing their book destroy their argument that their manuscript was good enough in the first place?

I mean, I'm grateful to MasonCrest for my first book, but I don't start threads heaping praise on their heads every chance I get - they gave me a chance and I fulfilled the needs of the contract and I'm grateful for that... but the way these peeps are going on I have to wonder if they realise how they destroy their own argument...

well, it's better than HB ranting again - that bully has probably forced more people off the boards than PA has by now!

[Karen Ranney]

You know how I thank my publisher? I make them oodles and oodles of money. They, in turn, thank ME by sending me my portion of it. We're both happy, but we don't sit in the corner together with lighters held up high singing Amazing Grace.

Good God.

Poor people.

[James D Macdonald]

That's how I thank my publisher too. Publishers. I have several. No one publisher is "best" for every book. Nor do I put all my eggs in one basket.

[absolutewrite]

I'm grateful to MasonCrest for my first book

FM, MasonCrest published my first book, too! Neat.

I do appreciate and praise my publishers. Nothin' wrong with that. But I never felt they were doing me the fabulous favor of "taking a chance" on me. I thought we were doing each other the favor of helping each other make money and put out good books.

[absolutewrite]

Vein: don't make that bet! I've actually known several writers whose POD books were picked up. But that's because I hunt for them so I can interview them because it IS so unusual. But there are more than 10 of them. I've interviewed a few of them on the "novels & nonfiction" section at Absolute Write.

[Ed Williams 3]

Here's one,

"I've had people who make $25 dollars an hour tell me my book ($21.95) cost too much. The lousy bastard can't spend an hours pay for an interesting read, yet he'll go to a gambling casino and lay down 50 bucks on a hand of Black Jack! You really find out the loyal people in your life when it comes to money. It just ain't fair!"

And another:

"Getting books into the stores is the first thing that must be done. Policies only hurt sales.

More sales could be made if the books were mass marketed. Alas we authors only have so much scope when it comes to our efforts. I for one am not satisfied with only selling to my home town. I have no choice.

I have seen that the output of cash to market the book, will more than likely be more than the sales.

When books are not returnable the stores shy from them. If they had them, and sold some, they may be more likely to keep the balance.

I can only do my part for as long as the money holds up. Advancement in sales on a larger scale must come from above with policy change."

And still another:

"There are some very good answers/replies/comments to the subject listed above ...

As to what price will be put on my book, I don't know. For me, considering the effort and work I put on it, then it is not enough.

B U T ... for the public who will be buying my book(s), I hope ... I think the price is to high.

Consider all the well known and proven authors out there whose books are selling for about 8-9 dollars, and then consider me, a UNKNOWN who's book will sell at twice the price.

Now I ask you ... whose books are the public going to buy ????"

And one more for the road:

" I went to my local Books-A-Million and did a price comparison of my book to 10 other YA trade paperbacks of about the same number of pages. The highest retail price of the other books (all by well-known authors) was $7.95. Mine is $24.95. Sorry, folks, but that's not competitive pricing."

Frankly, I'm amazed PA has left this particular thread up. If you'd like to read the whole thing, click here:

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/3546.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/3546.htm)

[FM St George]

well...

you can't really be too hard on them at the start because they've had the bright light of PA shone in their eyes with the mantra "You DESERVE to be published!" and "YOUR work is worth it!" repeated by the PAvidians over and over in other posts.

the funnier thing is that some authors have dropped out of sight publically after seeing how little they recouped with this scheme and no one seems to care or to put two cents together to see the problem - no matter how good you may think your work is, you will never be able to convince everyone that it is worth paying five dollars over what they can pick up on a bookshelf at their local store. Some may put the cash down out of pity or curiousity, but after you empty that pool, there's no more.

and, of course, if you dare to comment further then you're bashed for not doing enough for your book and not having faith in yourself as a writer - it's really got nothing to do with PA, after all...

:P

sad thing is that some prominent authors have dropped off the boards after receiving their first royalty check and realising that they'll never make money thanks to the wretched royalty system in place and NO ONE is curious as to what happened to them - truly Orwellian where they're wiped from memory and you dare not speak their name or ask why they left...

*shrug*

so it goes...

[James D Macdonald]

sad thing is that some prominent authors have dropped off the boards after receiving their first royalty check

What do you mean by "prominent author"? The ones who posted the most?

That's been noticed and commented on before on these boards. The folks who do most of the talking are the ones whose books are still forthcoming. They're happy authors, their books are coming out! They imagine that everything will go as well as they hope, and PA fuels those hopes with happy-talk of their own.

You'll notice that there are very few old PA authors who post regularly. Where are the thousands whose book came out last year, or the year before?

In a way, this is publishing as a Fantasy Role-Playing Game. These folks are playing "published author" in the same way that reenactors are playing "Civil War Soldier." This is fine; it's a hobby, it's fun, it keeps 'em off the streets, and probably isn't as expensive as some other hobbies can be.

[Ed Williams 3]

....of what goes on at Poz (PA Land of Oz) as any I have seen. Thanks for so eloquently summing it all up.

"In a way, this is publishing as a Fantasy Role-Playing Game. These folks are playing "published author" in the same way that reenactors are playing "Civil War Soldier." This is fine; it's a hobby, it's fun, it keeps 'em off the streets, and probably isn't as expensive as some other hobbies can be."

[FM St George]

truer words were probably never spoken...

I think I'll point any PA wannabees to this page and ask if they want to be a player or not...

:P

[Ed Williams 3]

...are seeking to get into the Southern Kentucky Festival of the Book, which is held each year in Bowling Green. On their web page, here is the author selection criteria:

"The Southern Kentucky Book Fest welcomes all authors to submit their work. Please read the requirements for eligibility listed below. If your book meets the criteria, please send it to the address listed below for consideration. We reserve the right to accept or reject any publication submitted.

Hardcover or paperback must have been published within a year of the festival date. The 2005 festival is April 15 & 16.

The book must be available through Barnes and Noble distribution.

The book must have an ISBN number and bar code.

No publish/print on demand books are accepted."

Be interesting to see if the PA books meet that criteria...

[NancyMehl]

As an ex-PA author, I think the term "playing published" is a little harsh. When I first found PA, I thought they were a traditional publisher. Why? Because I told them I DID NOT want to publish POD. They assured me they were not POD. I knew about the problems with bookstores and didn't want to have to deal with that. I just didn't see the warning signs in the contract. I know better now.

I feel that I was "published," but I also understand that no matter what PA says, almost everyone is accepted. As a book reviewer, I've read many PA books. Some ranked extremely high in my estimation - and others....? Well, I don't have to say it, do I? In fact, the worst book I ever read in my life was written by one of PA's cheerleaders. This author is very happy with them because no one else would publish his/her books. (For good reason)

Some of us were sucked in. I should have known better. I've known Victoria Strauss for years, and in fact, she writes a feature for my column on MyShelf.com.

Now that I am loosed from PA, I feel much more free to say what I what about them in a public forum. My column in May should be quite interesting to them!

And, btw, I recommend a Web site every time my column is published. Knowing how much they love this place, Absolute Write is my recommended Web site for May! LOL!

The comments about the oldest authors not being on the PA forum anymore is right on. Except for those who will probably never find publication anywhere else, most of the other authors have fled to places like this and Mindsight. Or, they have been banned for asking questions that PA didn't want to answer.

And that thread referred to earlier? GONE! What a shock!

Anyway, hello to everyone here. I've been reading this site for quite some time. Great info. You're doing a great service for writers who need to know what publishers, agents, etc., to avoid!

Nancy Mehl

[vstrauss]

Welcome, Nancy. Nice to see you here--

- Victoria

[NancyMehl]

We just keep bumping into each other, don't we? (G)

I got your book in the mail, btw. Wow. The cover is absolutely amazing! I may have to take a couple days off to read it. It's huge!

I'm really looking forward to reading it.

Nancy

[HapiSofi]

Nancy, referring to PA and other vanity publishers as FRPGs is harsh, but in most cases it's warranted. Any author is engaging in fantasy roleplay when theyir victory conditions implicitly assume the existence of a magical device out there that can force readers to buy and read books they don't want. "I don't care; it's enough just to see my book in print" is another symptom.

It's not your fault you got published by PA. You knew better. You just got shanghaied by their contract. But when I see authors who've been published by Xlibris, iUniverse, and PA, I know there has to be a whole lot of self-deception giong on.

[James D Macdonald]

The rest of the vanities, iUniverse, Xlibris, AuthorHouse, Vantage, and the rest, are more fantasy role-playing than PublishAmerica.

PA uniquely has a second class of authors: the ones who were defrauded. Those guys aren't playing the Role Playing Game (Arrange a signing! Feel like a published author!) The ones who believed the "We're a traditional publisher" and "Our books are on the shelves in thousands of stores" lines of hooey aren't the ones who were playing the game. I recognize that there's a difference between fooling yourself and being fooled by a con man.

It's the latter class who turn out to be the bitterly disappointed ones.

[NancyMehl]

about the "self-deception" comment. I certainly understand what you're saying, and in essence, I agree with you. However, as someone who has been reviewing books for many years, I've found that there are many excellent writers who have been shut out of traditional publishing for reasons other than the quality of their work. As we all know, the big houses control many imprints now that were once independent. Therefore, a publisher who might have accepted a book at one time, is now a part of a congolmerate that has different rules. Many publishers want someone with a track record so new authors may not be able to find a way in. Or, the author may have picked a subject that isn't the current "hot" market trend. BTW, haven't we all heard that "serial killer" novels are out - yet if you look at some of the top selling novels or movies, SERIAL KILLERS!! LOL! I don't pretend to understand the reasoning behind some of the choices made, but I do know that the quality of the work is not always the reason behind an acceptance or rejection.

One author I know, who penned a wonderful novel, told me he didn't try the traditional route because of his age. He wanted to be published before he died! Another novelist who wrote one of the best horror novels I've ever read, just didn't feel he wanted to tread the traditional route. But, I told him, as did others, that he really needed to try it. He has just been published by Kensington into mass market paperback! So, you see, his POD book was good. It was something else that made him choose self-publishing.

Yes, I believe the traditional route is the one to follow, but this doesn't mean that everything out there that is self-published is drivel. That is absolutely not true.

And...self-publishing is still okay for those who are writing their memoirs and just want a book for friends and family. A good choice there. Also, I do know several authors who followed the POD or small press path and were picked up by larger publishers. However, I believe you have to promote the heck out of your work - and yourself - for this to happen.

Your point, however, is still a good one. One of the biggest problems I've seen is that many writers never learn the "craft" of writing. This is one thing I go over and over in my column. Writing is a craft. In a rush to publish, writers may not learn their craft the way they should - then they put something out on the market that just isn't good. It may take some time to regroup from that. I still get novels all the time that include POV changes, tense changes, and an abundance of adjectives that weigh the story down. This, I think, is the thing that is too bad about self-publishing. And, these kinds of books make it seem as if everything put out through self-publishing is poorly written. Not true, but understandable. I think the idea of POD is a good one to a point, but I would like to see some controls. If POD publishers would have standards, just basic ones, it would help the overall market. Of course, there will always be self-published books. That is something we can't control. My encouragement would be this: don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Nancy

[James D Macdonald]

I've never said that all PA books, or all vanity books in general, were badly written. I've been quite explicit that some are well-written.

Unfortunately, the company they keep means that no one outside the author's circle of family and friends will ever know that.

I'm not certain that the choice is between the major publishers and the vanities. What about the hundreds of completely legitimate small presses? What about self-publishing?

Entirely too many people have believed the propaganda put out by the vanities and the scammers. How do they know that their book can't be traditionally published if they won't even try?

[NancyMehl]

James,

I like many of the small publishers. In fact, I am currently working with two of them, and am close to being picked up (I hope) by another one. Sorry if my post seemed to rule them out. Didn't mean to make it sound like that. As a book reviewer, I work very closely with small publishers, self-published authors, and POD authors.

Just for the record, before leaving PA (that's another whole story!) I sold over 1300 books. Believe me, I don't have that many friends and family! That is a success story for PA, but I'm well aware that it's quite small for other traditionally published authors. I don't see this as a successful run, I see it as doing the best I could in the circumstances I found myself in.

As far as self-publishing, I've considered that myself. At least the author would have some control over their books. However, there is still a huge stigma. I write reviews for a major Kansas newspaper. When I first started, I was told emphatically that I could not review self-published books. I was able to change their minds by working with local bookstores. If the store accepted the book, I was free to review it. But it was a real battle. I know that many newspapers still don't review self-pubbed books.

There is a Kansas woman who runs her own press - and publishes her own work. She throws another author's work in once in a while so she is not considered self-pubbed anymore. That's one way to do it, I guess.

Anyway....I am very supportive of the smaller presses. I like the hands on treatment and the fact that many of them are so enthusiastic about their authors. Small and mid-list publishers are vital to the publishing industry.

Nancy

[HapiSofi]

Nancy, it's far commoner for authors to think their books are too daring and challenging for the publishers to whom they've sent them, than it is for publishers to think the books authors send them are too daring and challenging for them to publish.

Sometimes a hot topic will arise from the zeitgeist on its own. What's more likely is for the zeitgeist to decide that some topic is hot because someone has written about it well, and they want another one Just Like That.

Look at Latitude, or Mr. Wilson's Cabinet of Wonders. You wouldn't have said those were hot topics, would you? But they did very well. They were wonderfully well-written.

A topic sentence will only get you so far. The rest of the paragraph has to be carried by the writing itself.

[NancyMehl]

I agree with that in essence, but I've seen the opposite happen time and time again. My agent represented an author who wrote a novel that included a "cult." It was shopped around to several inspirational publishers. No one would even look at it. Was it well-written? Yes. But the catch phrase was "we're not interested in anything dealing with cults." (Old, overused topic in their opinion.)

Many publishers say they're looking for something different, yet the truth is, they're looking for something they believe will sell in the current market. Markets change. If someone should write a breakout novel that includes a "cult" of some kind, many editors would begin looking for something similar.

It's the nature of the beast, I'm afraid. Of course, we certainly can't ever claim that everyone is the same. It's not true. I'm sure there are editors who are willing to look at manuscripts because they are searching for that well-written, "different" novel. But in my experience, the opposite is true.

However, I do believe that "if" a novel that is well-written gets into the hands of a good publisher, they will take notice. Another author I know wrote a "different" kind of novel. After a large publisher turned it down, an editor, who believed in this novel, and the author, went to bat for him. He turned the company around and my friend's book will be released any day now!

Of course, they at least read the manuscript!

I certainly have listened to authors who claim exactly what you refer to. It's sad. "They turned me down because they didn't understand me. I'm just too advanced for them!" Usually not true. Their work just wasn't good. Many of these writers will never be published because they care more about their own POV than they do good writing.

Nancy

[James D Macdonald]

I'm not 100% convinced that inspirational publishers are the first place I'd turn with a novel, whether it involved cults or not. (By "inspirational" do we mean "religious" or "Christian"?)

While a McGuffin like "cults" may be a part of a novel, it's only part. Other parts include story, plot, characters, dialog, and writing style. I'm convinced that if the story is strong enough and the rest is workmanlike-or-better, that a book where the McGuffin is tap-dancing penguins would find a legitimate publisher.

Nothing beats putting the right book in front of the right editor on the right day. Having a book that's "right" for more potential readers ups the odds that it'll be the right book for any particular reader. (Editors are members of the set of "readers.") Getting the work in front of the right editor is a matter of time. The right day is a matter of luck, where an agent's knowledge can influence the outcome. The agent is making her percentage from knowing what editor is right, and what day is right, for a given book.

[NancyMehl]

Yep, that's certainly true. Interestingly enough, the same agent who couldn't get a publisher to look at the "cult" manuscript is the same one who sold the other novel to the large publisher.

All I'm saying is that there are good novels out there that are regularly turned down by publishers for other reasons besides the writing. Current market trends, hot topics, the writer's "name recognition" - all these things "can" contribute to the reason a writer may have to go another direction for a while.

One thing you mentioned, James, about the small publishers, is probably the best way to go if you can't snag a bigger house right off the bat. Publish with a good, small publisher, promote the heck out of your book, listen to good, constructive criticism, and then try to get attention from a larger publisher.

I can definitely say that places like PA are not the way to go. My editor at the paper, who didn't know much at all about POD publishing, asked me about them when I told him I wanted to review a PA book. He had heard about PA - and felt they weren't a publisher he wanted to have anything to do with.

Word does get out, doesn't it?

Nancy

[James D Macdonald]

Right you are, Nancy.

The big problem with PublishAmerica is that they publish the slush heap. You'll find some gems in the slush pile at any publisher (that's where all those books on the shelves come from), but most of the slush heap is just ... slush.

Very few people slush for fun. No one pays to read slush; certainly no one pays to read slush a second time. So when somone pays money to buy a PA book and finds that it's just raw slush (the usual state of affairs), they'll be reluctant to pick up the next PA book (even though it may be brilliant). Y'see, writers really are judged by the company they keep.

Most slush isn't laughably bad, campy, or so bad it's good. Most of it is mindnumbingly forgettable. It lacks that spark that turns Frankenstein's creation from a cobbled-togther corpse into a living being.

Any one editor can be wrong on any given day. When it's fifty in a row, though, by then maybe the writer should get the message and write a different book.

Even if they don't notice it consciously, the logo on the spine is something that influences readers' buying decisions.

Further: Books that may be wrong as a first novel may be just fine as a later book by a known author. The readers will cut a known-good/enjoyable writer the slack to get through a slow opening that they'd never give to someone they've never heard of before.

It's all a complex dance. There aren't any hard-and-fast rules, except one: Money flows toward the author.

[NancyMehl]

Great post, James. I totally agree.

Association is important and aligning yourself with a publisher that has a bad rep can be hazardous to your career.

Nancy

[maestrowork]

I bought an iUniverse book a few months ago -- yes, I guess they do make sales. Though the subject did interest me, the writing could be categorized as "unpublishable." I must admit the print quality is actually good. iUniverse does a good job doing the PoD. It's just the lack of quality control that will continue to mar PoDs and make them non-viable solution for serious writers.

[James D Macdonald]

This is interesting. Those of you who are (or know) PA authors might want to check this out/pass it along.

<a href="http://www.writers.net/forum/read/1/16866/16866" target="_new">www.writers.net/forum/read/1/16866/16866</a>

[Betty W01]

she posted the same request on the AW forums; see p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm32.showMessage?topicID=90.topic (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm32.showMessage?topicID=90.topic)

[astonwest]

"So when somone pays money to buy a PA book and finds that it's just raw slush (the usual state of affairs), they'll be reluctant to pick up the next PA book (even though it may be brilliant)."

Especially when the first book ("raw slush") is priced way over what someone would consider as "worth the money"...return business hinges on the customer believing they're going to get what they pay for, in addition to the quality...

HI NANCY!!!! :-P

:hat
Big Daddy West

[James D Macdonald]

Let's see how fast PA pulls <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9813.htm" target="_new">this thread</a> now that it's been mentioned here.

Basically, it's some authors beginning to find out that PA books are treated by booksellers like POD vanity books. They haven't yet figured out why this is (hint: it's because PA books are POD vanity books); as soon as they do figure it out, watch for them to get locked out of the PA boards.

Some quotes from the thread:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I'm suppossed to have a book signing at BAM Sat. (tommorrow)They called and left a message on my answering machine at work that it had to be cancled along with the signing on May 22 in Dothan, 3 hours from where I live. The new regional manager said that I couldn't bring my own books and do the signing. His e-mail to the events manager stated "So, you're telling me that this girl is going to come to our store, sell her books and make all the profit? I don't think so."<hr></blockquote>


<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I had the same problem here at BAM in Jonesboro, Arkansas. I can order a PA book through the store, but it is only deliverable to my home address; it cannot be delivered to the store. <hr></blockquote>


<hr>

A <a href="http://books.guardian.co.uk/posysimmonds/page/0,12694,876777,00.html" target="_new">pertinent cartoon</a>.

[emeraldcite]

here's one that i liked:


This is going to be my first book, but hopefully not my last. I can't help but wonder if it will help out my financial problems.any good stories to share?

from:

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9769.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9769.htm)

bad time to be asking, don'tcha think?

[FM St George]

wait until she gets the PA email offering her the "great" 50% discount on her own books if she purchases fifty or so...

of course, the rest of them are just as bad encouraging her to sink money into overpriced books she can't sell... oh, right, it's the EXPERIENCE of writing that's important, not actually making money.

or losing it, obviously.

:P

[emeraldcite]

but spending your money to purchase your own book is such a noble cause. if we were all so lucky...

[Ed Williams 3]

...that will probably be gone quickly, yet another author finding out that those nasty, ole bookstore chains consider PA books POD vanity books...

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9840.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9840.htm)

[HapiSofi]

You know, if anyone needed legal proof of PA's consciously fraudulent intent, all they'd have to do is sit tight, monitor the PA boards, and collect instances of posts and posters that were swiftly deleted/locked out when they tried to talk about PA titles not getting bookstore placement.

PA claims, with false naivete, that their books get into bookstores -- see, there's one copy here, and three whole copies there, and another one reportedly spotted on a bookstore shelf in Akron. But of course that's not what their authors imagine when PA first tells them they get bookstore distribution; and the fact that their authors' posts on that subject are deleted, as soon as they're spotted on the PA boards, proves that PA knows it. The true situation is so far from satisfactory that if it became generally known, far fewer authors would do business with PA in the first place.

[James D Macdonald]

Heck, if I wanted to prove PA's deceptive business practices and fraudulent intent I'd take their <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/facts/index.htm" target="_new">"fact sheet"</a> (the one that authors are encouraged to print out and bring with them when begging bookstores to please, please, let me hold a signing at your store -- I'll bring my own books!) and show how each item on it is either false or misleading.

That, combined with their contract, and the discount they offer booksellers via distributors, should provide an open-and-shut case.

[FM St George]

how's this?

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9856.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9856.htm)

seems that people are actually asking good questions about why PA isn't going to be at the Book Expo in Chicago to promote themselves...

gee, could be why they're not listed in the Writer's Market...

:P

[emeraldcite]

will there be any authors' friends or relatives attending the book expo?

If so, then yes, PA will be there, as long as their authors can provide the names of the friends/relatives and the hotels they are staying at.

otherwise, no.

lol

[James D Macdonald]

how's this?

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9856.htm

Wooo! That one got pulled fast!

Did anyone keep a copy?

[FM St George]

yep, it's all due to us...

we should get paid by PA for pointing out the threads that they should censor...

*laughs*

well, at least someone's doing something over there...

[emeraldcite]

censored...nah, it's just pulled for editing.

[FM St George]

well, seems that Dave K. and P&E are stoking the fires again under some PA authors...

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9883.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9883.htm)

(it's posted on all the PA boards, so you can't miss it...)

[James D Macdonald]

Down now! That was fast, guys!

Betcha Dee Powers' password doesn't work any more, either.

<hr>

Dave: Another question to ask PA authors: "Were you unable to get your books stocked in major bookstores?"

[aka eraser]

I'm glad I managed to catch that one before it went "poof."

I'm getting the impression that the leaks in the PA dam are beginning to spring faster than their fingers can plug. I like that.

Not taking that bet Jim. Maybe Dee will let us know.

[DaveKuzminski]

Good idea, Jim. I'll add that real soon.

In the meantime, they must not have pulled whatever was said fast enough because I received a minor surge of emails from unhappy authors and one happy author. Mustn't forget that one since I actually do play fair. Doesn't mean I won't get insulting at times, but I do play fair.

Maybe someone has what was posted there in their Internet cache and can copy it to a regular directory. Once it's moved, it becomes possible to do a cut and paste or an attachment.

[DeePower]

The fastest one of my posts ever got pulled on a PA board was 20 minutes. As of today, I'm banned at the board.

Dee Power
Co-author of
The Making of a Bestseller, March 2005, Dearborn Trade
Overtime, 2003
Attracting Capital From Angels, 2002 John Wiley & Sons
Inside Secrets To Venture Capital, 2001 John Wiley & Sons

[FM St George]

was waiting for that one...

welcome!

*passes over "I was published by PA and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" shirt*

[FM St George]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9915.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9915.htm)

I especially love the part where "for the price of a car payment" you can hire a publicist....

WHERE are these people getting this money from? Sure as heck not their book sales?

*shakes head*

better off to take it all to AuthorHouse if you wish to burn it on books, imo...

[DeePower]

PA's last email told me that I could only communicate by emailing support@publishamerica.com and that any correspondence by postal mail would be thrown away unopened.

After my experiences with PublishAmerica I'm thinking about writing an article about POD publishers, including PA. I won't sugar coat, but it won't be a witch hunt either.

I think writers need to know what they're getting into.

What do you think?

Dee

Making of a Bestseller, 2005 Dearborn Trade
Overtime, 2003
Attracting Capital From Angels, 2002 John Wiley & Sons
Inside Secrets To Venture Capital, 2001 John Wiley & Sons

[James D Macdonald]

Go for it, Dee.

Lots of threads here at AW that you can look at.

Lots of other people you can interview.

[emeraldcite]

here is a number question that I have:

if PA has 6000+ authors, how would it ever be able to stock stores with those books using POD technology?

As they increase the number of authors, they increase the number of small runs. Would their printer be able to handle constant requests like that? Ingrams needs two books pronto for a borders in Podunk, Alaska. Do they run those suckers off?

Just curious how this will function in the future. I was reading threads on PA and finding that people had trouble stocking (surprise!) and many stores wouldn't back order.

[DeePower]

Actually PA touts that they have 8000 "very happy" authors. They are also up to releasing 100 to 150 books a week, at least that's what you get when you count the book covers on their 'this week's new releases' page.

It takes a week for Lightning Source to fill an order, whether it's for one book or fifty. I asked them so that's how I know. Oh, Lightning Source is the POD who prints PublishAmerica books.

Dee

[James D Macdonald]

Dee, you probably want to read <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessage?topicID=190.topic" target="_new">this thread</a>. (It isn't obvious from the thread title that it's a PA thread, but it has some of the best discussion.)

You'll also want to read most of the threads in the Take It Outside Board.

You'll probably want to make local copies of all of them.

[Ed Williams 3]

...apparently H.B. has decided he wants to write for television, but has found out that there is more to it than trying to call the networks. Witness the below:

"I need a reference to William Morris agency. I can't get in otherwise. That means I can't get anything going without an agent. BUT, I've been ripped off. That's why The Joe Schmoe Show and Parasites took two years to release. I need big."

To which one of his PA brothers replied,

"I can't believe that Argylestox, suggested what he did. In the first place to join the Screen Actors Guild (of which I am a member for 14 years) requires acting in SAG sanctioned movies or productions. Nothing to do with writing. Second, in order to join the Writers Guild of America you need to have sold a script or story for either film or television for minimum of $50,000.These are not guilds that you join by simply calling them up. By God, what ignorance! And let us not speak of misinformation."

Life just keeps rollin' along on the old pirate ship...

[James D Macdonald]

Hey, Ed!

In that same thread, another pirate posts:

"As a new writer I've landed a small literary agency based in Boca Raton, New York and Los Angeles. If you can't land an agent, submit through an attorney, that will also work."

That could only be our pals the ST Literary Agency (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessage?topicID=210.topic) !

Lessee -- They offer contracts to anyone who submits and is foolish enough to send a check. $129 to sign up, submissions supposedly sent out at the rate of ten a month for $14 per submission (another $140 a month), and that agency hasn't made a sale in its short, miserable life. So he's looking at spending about eighteen hundred bucks in the first year alone, with about zilch chance of making a sale.

Submit through an attorney? Oh dearikins me. That isn't very good advice.

I wish the Pirates weren't so dead set against looking at Preditors & Editors. They might learn something.

[Ed Williams 3]

...is exactly the point you just made in your last post. Why are the PAvidians so opposed to reading P&E and taking some of the advice? The writing industry as a whole recognizes it as one of the best resources there is for both established and new writers, and I cannot for the life of me figure out PA's opposition to it. Then again, maybe I can. P&E has PA pegged to a "T", and maybe that's the cruxt of the problem. The worst thing about it all is that the PAvidians are fated to forever go from one scam to the next in ill fated efforts to prove to P&E and the legitimate writing industry that they're wrong, and that the great and mighty pirate ship is right. You would think, in the end, that the PAvidians would just take a look at who's extolling PA's virtues - Dodgem James, H. B. Marcus, etc., examine their level of literary success, and then perhaps make the judgement that another route might be a better one...

[FM St George]

"Keep in mind that my first agent did little more than send out memos to publishers that a twelve year-old (or me) could have written. Then they held The Joe Schmoe Show and Parasties hostage by contract for a year because they were claiming four grand in expenses. Yeah right! I can see how five badly written query letters can rack up the bucks. It must have been all that postage from another freakin' planet."

from another post by HB... looks like he tried to move away from PA after his first book and didn't learn much.

I wonder how long his foray into television comedy writing is going to last - it's a tough world there and I just don't see them falling to their knees like the PAvidians and worship his talent... I'm waiting for the post denouncing Hollywood as part of the Big Conspiracy To Hold You All Down.

:P

[James D Macdonald]

Oh, boy. Poor HB!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about the help I've received. I just wish there was a company that said: "Now that we've seen what you can do for us, here's what we can do for you. AND if you don't make money, neither do we, so you know we'll give it our all."

HB, I'm telling you this as a friend. What you're wishing for describes every single legitimate agent on the planet.

Honest, guy, if you're reading this, pop up around here and ask. We'll all try to help. Use a fake name if you like. Or show up as yourself. We'll still try to help to the best of our ability.

[DaveKuzminski]

I do believe it would be better in the future if any comments about topics on the PublishAmerica forum were passed around as private messages. Otherwise, we're making it easy for the management over there to restrict that information too quickly.

[Jarocal]

That would work to a degree Dave, but it would only lengthen the amount of time it stays on the PA site by a couple days at the most. I think the people they should have screening author submissions are all busy perusing their forum as happy authors sending their I.T. people posts/threads to kill. Quoting it and providing a link is still better because even if they kill the thread what was written is still viewable as an excerpt here (for educational purposes about the difficulties in the publishing industry of course which falls under the fair uses clause).

[Ed Williams 3]

....even if we make no reference to the PA threads most will ultimately be pulled anyway, and extending their life in PA land for another day or two will likely not have that much effect. Also, if we don't have some newer posts here, the PA thought police will use that in brainwashing new recruits, as in, "Oh that, hey, that was posted months ago and was already dealt with/resolved. If they can only bash us with these old items, hey, what more proof do you need about our honesty and integrity?"

[DaveKuzminski]

I suggested that before about posting those here. However, some of those who are posting URLs here aren't copying the text for educational display.

[DeePower]

Still haven't decided whether to write the article about PA, but I have to tell you based on some of the horror stories I've found I am very much leaning toward it.

Now for some interesting news: Our company has performed research in the areas of venture capital, entrepreneurs and private investors for the last six years. Part of that research is the completion and analysis of surveys. We have experience with this. Our business website is www.capital-connection.com (http://www.capital-connection.com)

I decided to do a quick survey of independent bookstores and ask them, as one of the questions, if they will stock publish on demand or self published books. Guess what the answer was? By a large majority, no, they won't because of the poor quality of POD books.

And since PublishAmerica is POD that means no to PublishAmerica.

The survey results aren't ready for publication but at least it is some documentation that PublishAmerica misrepresents what they say on their website about getting their books into bricks and mortar stores.


Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[vstrauss]

The cleverness of PA's website sales pitch is that it _doesn't_ claim that gets its books into bricks-and-mortar stores--only that they are "available" (which they are--by special order, and sometimes if the authors themselves have persuaded an individual store to stock), and that bricks-and-mortar stores including Barnes & Noble, Borders, and Books-A-Million are their largest customers (which because of those special orders they may well be--after the authors themselves, of course). This is intended to be misleading, since many people will assume that "available" means "stocked", and won't realize that "order" only means "special order". But it isn't actually untrue.

- Victoria

[Jarocal]

I've found that more placew are reticent about stocking the POD books more from the no returns policy of the publishers rather than the actual print quality of the books. I have seen some POD books that made extremely well and I have seen others that look like something a third grade student did with their school computer and handbound it with rubber cement.

[DeePower]

I believe that a court of law would use the 'reasonable man' interpretation, rather than the tricky language on the web site. 'Would a reasonable and prudent man expect the books to be stocked and available in a bricks and mortar bookstore based on the PublishAmerica verbage?' And the answer is yes.

In any event I'm not an attorney, but I know how to hire one. We have sent all the PA materials to our law firm in New York, they specialize in entertainment and publishing. We've had them on retainer for a year now. They've requested our approval to have one of their litigators review the materials as well, and we said yes.

Wish us luck. If anybody has any ammo about PA they think would help, we'd appreciate it.

Dee

www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[PianoTuna]

Suggestion? Set up a website for writers to type in PA stories. Require registration to post, but don't display it, just the stories. Vet what you get. Show the real ones. Wait awhile. Then write about PA.

[James D Macdonald]

Set up an e-mail address where people can send you interesting threads from the PA bulletin board. The rules would be: Full thread (unedited) and URL.

Things show up on that board that their moderators miss for a couple of hours.

Also, to prove bad intent, check out <a href="http://www.authorsmarket.net/" target="_new">www.authorsmarket.net/</a> for false, misleading, and harmful advice.

[emeraldcite]

Also, to prove bad intent, check out www.authorsmarket.net/ for false, misleading, and harmful advice.

should we count the days (hours maybe?) until they take that down now?

with the mention of lawyers and that site on the same page...

[DaveKuzminski]

Why? Because all the search engines have that site cached. Therefore, there will still be copies that the owners can't touch in order to delete. Those won't last forever, but they'll last more than long enough to make a difference.

[Jarocal]

I know of one thread certainly, where the PA moderater made what is in my opinion a legally false statement. At the very least it is misleading. To ensure the thread does not go anywhere before you see it, if you want the link I can email it to you.

<edit> I'm gonna have to send them a crappy manuscript to publish so I can write on their message board.:smack
Of couirse Then I can be one of the Pirates like HB:snoopy

[CaoPaux]

Out of morbid curiosity, does the scope of any investigation into PA unprofessional practices include their publishing at least one cover using an unauthorized celebrity image? If nothing else, I’d think it’d prove their ignorance or callous disregard for many things a traditional publisher would know and care about.

CAO

[DaveKuzminski]

At the very least, that should be reported to the celebrity whose picture was used. Give the title of the book, the ISBN, and where you saw it so it can be verified.

[clonesrus2001]

OK, where do I start? I am a newly "published" PA author. I've been investigating the business end of publishing in my spare time for about six months. Yea, I'm not even weaned yet.

I have several issues with PA, but a whole lot more with the industry in general. I am a businessman of 25 years who writes for many reasons, one of which is to escape from the back-stabbing, lying, cheating, stealing world of trading dollars and services. Watching ignorance become the lever to extract value is not entertaining. I am stuck doing it 8 hours a day and while I do my level best to warn people and educate along the way, the basic story goes on endlessly. Honesty is out of style. Therefore, I am a relic.

Use whatever definition you are comfortable with. I write because I have to, because I love it, because it helps me. Thirty years of throwing away the last manuscript was great therapy. But now that I am grown up, (sort of) I actually know how to finish a good story (I think). The problem is, as I escaped from my own business woes, I failed to research the publishing industry. I was positively recalcitrant to do the homework until the signals got so loud I had to listen. But alas, it is too late for what I consider to be an excellent first novel. I get it now. It is too late.

Ironically, as has been stated here already, a good writer need not get discovered in today's world. Mark Twain wouldn't stand a chance. It's a jungle out there.

Sure, there is definitely a large amount of trash circulating. But why does a writer need a law degree and contacts with the rich and famous to get a fair hearing? I know, it's the numbers … it's the economy… stupid.

Given the right set of circumstances, I would be happy to testify to my own experience with PA. But they'll blackball me in a New York minute and then I'd be even less known than I stand to be now. Don't misunderstand. I don't want to take over the literary world. I'm not an ego-maniac. I am a middle-aged man who wants to do what he loves and make enough money to support a family. That's all. I want to migrate into a new job!

I'm not a dreamer either. If I wasn't certain that my work was good enough, I'd just keep throwing manuscripts away. If that's where I end up, so be it. But the dozen people I trust to evaluate my work all agree.

So if I haven't convinced you that I'm a shameless wanna-be, please bear with me.

As an idealist, it seems to me that a book should stand on its own merits. Yes, I understand how lame that sounds. I believe the author should be anonymous. That's what I want. It's all I want. Yet good books stand little hope swimming in the sea of mediocrity that PA pushes. Now I get it.

There is some talent at PA from what I have seen. Most of it is young and undisciplined, naïve and without true direction. But it is there; and it is being lied to. The law is beside the point. People who put the best of themselves into a project, whether they have talent or not, should be treated honestly and respectfully. I have seen sarcasm dealt out like candy and false compliments given where courteous criticism was all that was called for. Some of them do need to go back to school, but that is no reason to treat them as idiots who cannot ascertain the difference between false praise and the poorly written form letter.

I jumped on getting published because I was ignorant. I actually believed that a small press who didn't ask for money up front must be a respectable business. I did not expect miracles. I expected professionalism. I expected to talk with an editor about the points of the book and the style of the writing. I expected a close look at consistency. I expected criticism. When I got, "Hurry up and give us the final submission", I became skeptical. It got worse from there.

I wanted desperately to take three more months and finish polishing the story. It is good as is, but with just a little more work, it would have been complete. PA said, "We'll give you two weeks."

Later, when my 'editor' emailed her corrections, I found more mistakes than in the original submission. Again, I was given two weeks to read, review and edit (insert large number) words. For the most part, it was identical to the submission; but as I said, during the copy process there were various typos and punctuation errors that were not in the manuscript. I was correcting my editor!

There is more to the story, but I will spare you. Generally speaking, people, including lawyers and judges, do not listen to disgruntled employees or clients. Buyer beware. They will listen to successful professionals, however. That is what it will take to expose PA, a successful writer who had a horrible experience doing business with them. It is my dream to be that writer.

I am promoting a hopelessly idealistic campaign of word of mouth. I do not expect a single person to lift a finger. I am asking people to look past the blasted publisher's name, buy my book at Barnes & Nobel or Amazon.com and read it. If anyone can prove to me that he/she actually read it and did not enjoy it, I will buy it back. If at some point I can gain an audience, I promise to speak honestly about PA. Problem is, I have a seven-year contract that says in essence, 'I will not criticize my publisher, and he will not criticize me'. So the goal is ten years.

Simultaneously, my worst nightmare is coming to pass too. Since my book has come out, I have had almost no time to write. Marketing, planning, reading this and other boards, looking for people who might listen for thirty seconds – all of these things are affecting my usual level of inspiration and taking away from my coveted research time. I also have four children and ten employees. I'm not afraid of work. I'm afraid of working at the wrong things.

This board has been particularly helpful in verifying my growing suspicions. I started writing when I was 12. Through the years, it has become a bigger and bigger part of my life as my spectrum of experiences and observations have widened. I am too old to learn the required gymnastics of publishing and promoting. I have had enough of business. Still, I am too stubborn not to pursue this last career wish. As I find so often, the ironies of real life are far more unbelievable than anything I could have invented.

Thank you, and keep up the good work. I'll be watching.

- noname

[vstrauss]

>>I have a seven-year contract that says in essence, 'I will not criticize my publisher, and he will not criticize me'.<<

If so, the contract has changed since the last time I saw it, just a few months ago. Would you mind quoting that clause here? Or if you prefer, contact me directly--beware@sfwa.org. If the contact has changed, I'd like to document it.

I'm sorry for the sense of disillusion you're feeling right now. It can be really tough to pick yourself up after such a disappointment. But if you have one book in you, I'm sure you have another--and truly, you don't need contacts or a celebrity name to break into "big" publishing (or to land a reputable small publisher)...just a good book. I know a lot of writers, none of whom are celebrities or have any special connections--but they all got published anyway. With your next book, give the "traditional" market a determined try. All you have to lose is postage.

One last thing: Trust me, PA cannot blackball you except on its own message board. PA's only connection to the real world of publishing is the writers.

- Victoria

[James D Macdonald]

Hi, clonesrus2001.

If you want to write and publish your novels, please, join me in the "Uncle Jim" (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm3.showMessage?topicID=257.topic) thread up on the Writing Novels board.

I try to give good advice.

The idea that first-time writers, the unknown writers, can't get published is a false one that the bottom-feeders and scammers push because it fills their pockets.

Take heart.

You should write your next book. Forget the running around doing promotion.

Even if you do all the publicity that PA suggests and do it perfectly, even if you spend all your time on the phone arranging signings with increasingly reluctant bookstores, you won't sell enough books to make it worth your time or recoup your expenses.

Write more, and better books. Run out the clock. After seven years you'll get your book back. You do the final polish and sell it as a fresh work, because no one will have seen it.

[DaveKuzminski]

Two of the ads at the top of the page were for super hero costumes. Jim, Victoria, do you suppose they know about you?

[aka eraser]

Clone, you're obviously articulate and intelligent and I have little doubt that your book is a good one. But I'm loathe to part with my hard-earned dollars in order to add to PA's coffers.

I take mild umbrage with one of your statements. You are NOT too old to learn the "required gymnastics of publishing and promoting."

There is a goldmine of information on this and other writing sites. I've been freelancing for half my life and have learned more in the last three years than the previous 25. On this site alone you have the benefit of hundreds of writers' accumulated experience.

You chose the wrong publisher. So have thousands of your brethren. Some are trying to get the rights to their book back. A few seem to be succeeding (check out the Mindsight board for one poster's on-going attempt to get hers back). Many have chosen to put the experience behind them and move on. Your decision is up to you but I hope you don't let one wrong choice derail your writing career.

A common, and true refrain you'll hear a lot here is that every traditionally-published writer was unknown and unpublished at one time. It takes a good book, some research on agents and pubs, perseverance and postage; not a magic formula or networking with people who have an "in."

Your disillusionment is understandable but I hope you don't let it cripple you.

[Fran Blake]

Dear new friend,
I don't agree with you about your situation. Mine is similiar, I didn't check on them because they were highly recommended in a writing group I was attending. To make a long story short, my book can't be sold anywhere, period! The price, the poor quality, the errors, etc,etc,etc, and on and on. I am too important to myself to let them do this to me. I guarantee you the judge, the jury, and the lawyer, WILL listen to me. They (PA) will be run out of town. One more thing, I'm old -fashioned and believe in honesty too, and it will prevail. If we can't sell the books we put our hearts and souls into, how can children and consenting adults know that honesty is alive and well? We are the ones who have the chance to change this greedy, crooked world. We have to persist, why not, PA is.

Fran

[FM St George]

dear Fran;

I'm almost afraid to ask, but what writing group were you in that recommended PA to you? Was it an organization with a name, or just a group at a local library?

There's plenty of PAvidians out there who keep on bringing new meat into the PublishAmerica pyramid scheme, I'm sorry to say... I only hope that your experience has put others off of it from the same group.

good luck in the future!

[SRHowen]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr> am a businessman of 25 years <hr></blockquote>

So you are what--maybe 40 or 45? I fit in that age bracket.

You are not too old to learn the ropes--the ropes are pretty easy. But they do take time to navigate. Keep writing and when you finish the next book go the traditional way.

Shawn

[DeePower]

I went to amazon.com, hit books, hit advanced research, put PublishAmerica in the publishers box, then searched.

3,085 books are listed. BUT they say they have 8000 authors, which means more than half are in the pipeline waiting to be published. 0r more than half are out of print or some combination thereof. I would believe it's the former - the authors are waiting to have their books published.

I then sorted by publication date and went to the 117 May releases. 60% have no cover image loaded. Only one has any description. Uploading the cover and book description is the publisher's responsibility and is basic 101 marketing. But PA doesn't do it in a timely fashion. Covers sells books and yet 60% of their May titles don't have covers.

15 of the authors in May had published another title, but only one was not PA or another POD publisher. So nearly 90% of the authors are first time authors. That means authors who don't have experience with the publishng process or what to expect. I don't know of any other traditional publishing house (as they so loosely define themselves) that has only first time authors. Do they want only first time authors?

Only 21 of the books had any ranking at amazon.com which means only 21 had any sales through amazon.com. These are brand new releases and only 21 titles had sales.

In an email that PublishAmerica sent me they state in separate paragraphs contradictory information. In one paragraph they state "soon we will sell our one millionith book" in another paragraph they state. "In the past two years we have sold more than a quarter of a million books," So when did the other 750,000 books sell?

At 250,000 total books sold divided by the 3,085 titles on amazon.com that means an average of 85 books per title sold. Being generous and using the 1 million books sold that's still only 340 per title.

What bothers me the most about this information is that they seem to be recruiting naive authors. What business model would only want first time authors and generate average sales of only 85 to 340 sales per title?

Curious.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[James D Macdonald]

What bothers me the most about this information is that they seem to be recruiting naive authors. What business model would only want first time authors and generate average sales of only 85 to 340 sales per title?

The vanity press business model.

BTW, based on other sources and other information, I believe that the actual average sales are around 75/title.

Even if I'm 100% off, and average sales are 150/title, that's still pathetic.

PA prices its books $5 above the price of similar books printed using identical technology. That's the vanity-press fee, hidden in the cover price. The author, and the author's family and friends, are still paying to be published, but they're doing it on the installment plan.

PA knows that authors love their books, and will do anything to sell them. They know that they don't need to require authors to buy a certain number of books -- authors will buy them without being told to. $5 * 75 is a $375 vanity fee -- perfectly in line with Xlibris, iUniverse, AuthorHouse, and all the rest of the PoD vanities.

[CaoPaux]

Dee, PA also publishes under "AmErica House" and a couple other names left over from previous incarnations.

CAO

[Deejay816]

<post deleted by mod>

(Please, no personal attacks/humiliation of authors here.)

[CaoPaux]

Yup, that's the one I was thinking of. Stunning, isn't it?

CAO

[FM St George]

wow... I am truly speechless...

gee, I wonder if PA has a good set of lawyers on call? Betcha Mr. Bloom's lawyers might have something to say about that wonderful cover...

*chuckles*

[DaveKuzminski]

It will be interesting to see how PublishAmerica explains away this "oversight" on their part regarding copyright and Mr. Bloom's photo as I simply find it very difficult to believe that they would actually pay a licensing fee. After all, that would cut into their profits.

I wonder whether they'll accept the responsibility or state that the author produced the cover?

[Jarocal]

I dunno, the pics been played with (poorly) in photoshop or some other little graphic program. If they can find some schill that looks remotely like Orlando say the pic is actually of him posing in a similar manner to a picture seen of Orlando Bloom, I don't think that anyone would side with Blooms lawyers pver some poor lady who has struggled so hard to get in the publishing world and then the Publishing world sent lawyers after her for using a picture of some that looks like Orlando.

That whole story above is false, of course, It would probably only take someone about a week of searching through 20 million pictures of him on the net for the pic she used (15 minutes if you ask the right teenage girl to do it, she would probably even have a copy of it printed out for her room). But it would not be hard to get someone who looks close enough to Bloom to say the pic was of him for a relatively small amount of money. Even if not, Pa can claim the cover was Author supplied and that it is the authors responsibility to secure usage rights for pictures they send PA.

[DaveKuzminski]

If it goes to court, it's the pixel codes that will determine whether it's a picture of someone similar or not. Even if there's some distortion, clipping, or other change, enough of those original pixels will survive to prove it's the same if that is indeed the situation.

[PianoTuna]

Kuzminski's right. It's not the likeness, it's the pixels.

[Jarocal]

The thing with the pixel codes is that if you have someone that looks close enough to Bloom and claim you had that person recreate the pose of Bloom, The photoshopped the image,...

It would be hard for Blooms lawyers to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was not a picture of a person who lookes like Bloom extensively photoshopped. They could document reproducing the pic on the cover using a the pic of Bloom she started with and then comparing pixel codes but it would not take a very large margin of difference in for it to still be argued it is not him.

The easiest thing for PA to do is to say that the rihts issues should have been worked out by the author and it is through no fault of their own that she did not do such. The book has not sold well, so the mot that would probably happen is that the cover would be changed and the author end up in more trouble than PA.

Bloom's people may even already be aware of it and not worried about it because they know the book is not going to be a moneymaker, Not see any real public and that the blame will end up on the author leaving the actor looking like a spoiled rich person attacking a weak person (her actions being illegal notwithstanding).

If they do go after the copyright infringement they will make the 75 copies or so of the book that are in existance worth more money. PA will put a new cover on the book, a couple thousand people will buy it just to support the poor lady wronged (even though they will only be making PA any money). The copies with his picture on it that have already sold will be sought after by idiots wanting the "unauthorized or illegal" copy of the book.

As it stands now the only people that know of the picture are the 100 people or less that the author knows who will get the book, a couple of watchdog types that want to force PA into becoming a legitimate publisher or go out of business, and they people who frequent threads like this. Why risk bad press for sonething that is never going to be able to come back and hurt you? If the book takes off and becomes a good seller, then they have a case saying it was his pic that got a lot of sales. He may actually be able to get something out of it other than paying lawyers to step on an ordinary womans dream.

[DaveKuzminski]

The problem goes much deeper than it appears.

First off, Bloom has his image to protect. He has no idea what's in the book and might not like the content or how he's portrayed.

Secondly, if he doesn't take action, he could give others a foot in the door to similarly use his image without permission. That is why many celebrities do not permit others to use their image without permission even though many others do. In this case, there's a commercial interest present and that matters more than a fan site because there's no way of knowing how many copies might be sold regardless of PublishAmerica's background and history. He has a right to profit from his image since it is his alone.

Third, if a photo of his was used, particularly one from the Internet, then a pixel comparison is indeed possible and may provide all the proof needed. Even if it was scanned from a regular photo, there are tools available that can determine what scanner was used and how it would have coded an image. In other words, it would be replicable and any results with a high percentage of matching would be admissible evidence in all likelihood. Besides which, lawyers don't have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in a civil case.

As to PA, the odds are in favor of them being responsible. They furnish the covers for the great majority of the books they "publish." If they did not create the cover in question, they should have a policy stating that authors who provide covers are responsible for securing permission for instances involving images whose rights do not belong to the author or are clearly not in the public domain. If not, then they could be equally culpable when it comes to a court decision or any out of court settlement. In other words, they should have asked when it was submitted for use even if that was mentioned in their contract. In other words, you don't truly cover yourself by making a policy and then never enforcing it by looking the other way such as they've claimed before in stating that they never conducted any smear campaigns.

As to making the cover wanted by collectors, the profits still would likely accrue to Bloom. Whether some people buy it merely to support the poor accused lady or not, their money probably will not go to her.

As to whether some watchdog sites are trying to make PA behave like a real publisher or go out of business, I can speak only for myself. I just want to see them treat writers fairly and honestly.

[CaoPaux]

As to whether some watchdog sites are trying to make PA behave like a real publisher or go out of business, I can speak only for myself. I just want to see them treat writers fairly and honestly.

Which was my point in mentioning it, actually. Although the word is that the author did design the cover, the fact that PA used it would seem to indicate that (at best) they haven't a clue or, at worst, they have no regard for the welfare of their authors since the use creates legal risk.

[Jarocal]

While legally "reasonable doubt" is a poor choice of terms. They must still provide a convincing enough argument with the pixels that it is what happeed not just what could have happened.

All of that is mute though because what would happen is that it would be pushed right back onto the author who apparently supplied the cover. PA would be able to claim that they in good faith took the author's submission to be the author's property, or that the author had in fact taken the steps to secure permissions. If Pa is found culpable then Lightning source would also then be found responsible for printing materials that infringe on Bloom's rights.

As I stated before. In Bloom's position at the moment, an insignificant number of people even know of the existance of it. He would easily be able to get production of that cover halted until the mess was sorted out and it would in the end be found to be his pic I don't doubt.

But he would still get the press of going after an ordinary person defense of his reputation aside. The majority of the public will see a rich young actor who has money to burn picking on a woman who in reality would not have sold enough books to make any damage to his reputation. Legal protection of his rights and protecting the image the pulic sees of him differ greatly.

This is all also speculation as he may have actually given permission to use the picture for all I have looked into the specific incident. I do seriously doubt that though

[DaveKuzminski]

He also might not own all the rights to the use of his image. That could be leased or off limits for the term of a contract in which case a corporation might have something to say about whether they want to let someone muscle in regardless of their economic position in life. If one reads the news often enough, it will become apparent that there are numerous corporations and individuals who do not care if you're poor. All that matters is that they protect themselves because celebrity doesn't last forever in most instances.

[Jarocal]

I agree,

But there are circumstances where not pursuing or delaying pursuit of the nfringment would be to their benefit. I can't remember ho to check how many copies of the book have sold through Amazon but it's ranking of around 1,100,000 in sales leads me to believe that there has not been enough interest in the thing to where enough people are aware of it's existance to warrant paying a lawyer to file the claim. The lawyers are already on retainer but it may be a case of money better spent having the lawyer work on something else instead. New Line would probably be who has the rights anyhow as the pic looks like it was ripped off of a fan site for the LOTR movies. The fact that 'Elven' is in the title seems to support that notion. By not immediately pouncing on the issue does not open the door for others to misuse his picture as they can always file the claim for that one at the same time as one that appears more damaging surfaces, or at such time as it seems to become a more widespread practice on the part of PA to allow them to happen.

It would be interesting to contact Mr. Bloom's publicist and see what their response is.

[DeePower]

If you are a PublishAmerica author and you have had problems with placing your PA books in bookstores, such as Barnes and Nobles, Borders, BooksAMillion or independent bookstores. Would you please email me a brief description of what happened.

And on the other hand if you are a PublishAMerica author and you do have your books in more than one bookstore and not on consignment I'd like to hear about it as well.

Please feel free to forward this message to others or to post on any discussion boards.

Please email the information to mailto:authors@brianhillanddeepower.com

I will not use your name unless you give me permission, but I would like your real name on the email so I can verify that you are a real person and not just a PA basher or PA shill.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[hassenpluged]

Is this any way for a reputable company to operate?

"Subj: Fw: Claudia Vanlydegraf: contacting PublishAmerica
Date: 5/25/04 9:57:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: support@publishamerica.com
To: Cltvcoyote@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)



Again, please do not address us in such a tone. The tone of your letter is
way out of place. Soon we will sell our one millionth book! Neither your
fax nor your registered letter reached the intended recipient. Please use
support@publishamerica.com as your sole point of contact. Future paper
letters from you will be discarded unread.

There is no "cease and desist" applicable at all with a contract such as
ours. And again, our contract has never, throughout our history, even been
so much as questioned by any credible source. Numerous attorneys over the
years have inspected this contract and deemed it without problem, including
dozens of them who have signed it themselves, an AFL/CIO affiliate, and
other industry pundits. It's a very standard, complete, and fine product.

Please consult an attorney prior to making such wild statements. He/she
will tell you that your contract remains fully in force, and enforceable.
Also, and as per your signature, on your contract, contract enforcement
issues take place at our venue, and not in Nevada. Also, any accounting
that we do will be as per the contract, and certainly not within "one week".

Your "personal knowledge" and "credible sources" appear to be less than
credible. You may be referring to one or two isolated incidents wherein we
invoked a clause requiring authors to purchase remaining stock. That was
several years ago, but we believe that it was only two or three times that
this was done, since at that time we were keeping more stock. We have no
copies of your book in stock. If we did, however, and we chose to invoke
that clause with you, we would be well within our contractual rights.

Our convention in Frederick was, by any standard, a raging success! We had
more than 300 people coming from all over the country, and even from places
as far away as Canada and Britain. They had a great time together!

We ran seven different seminars during the convention, led by PA authors,
some with standing room only, and others were so packed that we had to
break out walls to accommodate everyone. Sound recordings of each seminar
are available on CD-ROM, which include the moderator's presentation and the
audience Q&A. They are very, very good and pleasantly instructive.

We're still getting messages thanking us for having the convention.
Everything went smoothly, and so many authors came that we broke a record
from the Guinness Book of World Records!

For now, your contract termination request is denied, and your contract
remains fully in effect. In order to give your book the proper chance to
recoup our investments in marketing, advertising, design, and book
production, we will keep your book under contract for a period of six
months from now.

We agree to terminate your contract at that point, on November 30, and we
will send you the requisite paperwork in October.

Thank You,
Author Support Team
Support@publishamerica.com"

[DeePower]

You have to wonder about PA. First they demand that their authors only communicate by email and then they don't care whether you receive the email. BTW, there is no policy of using email only. They just make it up. PA a truly professional company - NOT.


Dear Ms. Power,

No, as stated below, that was our second message to you, the fact that you may not have received it notwithstanding. And again, no, we will take no
such action, nor will we contact you by mail. You were well aware of our policy of using email very early on in the process, and we will make no exception for you.

Thank You,
Author Support Team
Support@publishamerica.com

******************************

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[aka eraser]

"Support@publishamerica" <---a new oxymoron enters the lexicon

[DeePower]

Why doesn't PublishAmerica want book orders from stores like a traditional publisher? Why has PA set up their discount and no return policies so that it discourages sales? Why doesn't PA offer a discount to amazon.com so those books are discounted by the expected 30%? Why does PublishAmerica focus its efforts on recruiting new authors and having those new authors sell 50 to 300 copies, rather than taking a few authors and selling 1,000 to 5,000 copies to retail outlets?

I believe I have the answer. And it is money, but probably not what you think.

Just as a little background I have a Master's in Business Administration and have worked in the finance department of a major corporation, as well as a consultant in business planning for my own consulting company. I am very familiar with budgets, forecasting, cash flow and income statements.

If PA sells say 100 copies of a $19.95 title, (and let's just round that up to $20.00 so I can do the math in my head) to the author, or from the PA website and they discount the title 20%, they have sales of $1800.00 and they probably pay Lightning Source (LS) their printer $3.00 per book, but let's be conservative and say they pay $5.00 per book. They earn $1800.00 and pay LS $500.00 so the PA net profit is $1300.00

If a bookstore would order 1000 copies and want a 50% discount (55% is standard but again we'll say 50% so I can figure out the math without a calculator) PA would receive $10,000 and have to pay LS $5,000 so they would have a net profit of $5,000.00

Would you rather have $1300.00 or $5,000? PublishAmerica would rather have the $1300.00 and here's why.

The $1300.00 is immediate cash (actually they get $1800.00 immediately) because PA doesn't tell LS to print the books until PA has been paid in full by credit card by the author (or a customer from the PA website). Credit cards settle within 48 hours.

If PA fills a bookstore order they have to pay LS $5,000.00 to print the 1000 copies now, when the copies are ordered. BUT they don't get the payment from the bookstore for 60 to 90 days. If the books are ordered by the bookstore through Ingram, and that's how most bookstores order, PublishAmerica has to wait 90 days to get paid by Ingram. That's Ingram's standard term. It's a double hit, they have to pay out-of-pocket expenses of $5,000.00 immediately and they don't receive the $10,000 for 90 days.

PA does not want to tie up $5,000 for 90 days and have to wait 90 days to receive their profit.

If PA was a traditional publisher as they claim, and had orders for 1000 copies of just say 50 titles out of the 3000+ titles they have already released, well they have to have some significant cash on hand to fund the orders.

And now they have 8000 authors, if 3,000 have already been published that means that 5000 will be published within the next 12 months per the PA contract. PublishAmerica not only doesn't want to sell to bookstores like a traditional publisher, it's my opinion they can't.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[Jarocal]

Interesting figures, but it was not hard to figure out that they want to make their money off of the author's friends and family with the lack of any type of a payment up front. The total lack of marketing on their part is also another good clue. The thing that the numbers bear out in my mind is the lack of a credibly seasoned editing department to scream "Hey here is one we can turn into a bestseller". If they had done that to even one or two of the submissions they received and had actually even just focused on marketing those books in a more traditonal manner (create another label to run those under or something) then they would have had more of a defense against the watchdog groups while they continued to bilk the rest of the unsuspecting writers out there.
They would have had their own versioin of a hit like 'Chicken soup for the soul' under their label and had a more convincing carrot to hold in front of the eyes of the masses. They dcould have had two or three 'ordinary people' who 'hit is big' with PA. There would have been no reason to for them to market everyones in that manner to set-up a better facade than they have now, only have an actual editorial department to see books with potential for shuffling over to an elite program that all the authors would ahve aspired to reach. Upon the manuscript being placed back in the slush pile. They could have then offered the underhanded contract that is the current one but with a couple of books on the bestseller list groups like P&E and Writer Beware would have a less convincing argument against them.
So while the short term business numbers bear out using their current model, It would have been easier to have had a larger profit margin and a harder image to tarnish with a slight modification to their model. With 8000 authors, they should be able to market say five books out of 8000 submissions in a more traditional manner and get one of the five onto a best-seller list which would be a stronger hook than all of the testimonial verbage they have on their web page currently.

[DeePower]

About a year ago PublishAmerica announced their Independent Books Imprint, which would accept returns from bookstores, and theoretically act more like a traditional publisher. The catch was that an author's book had to have sold at least 500 copies to be considered for the imprint. And while PA said they would accept returns, all orders had to be prepaid.

I can only find four books that have been re-issued under the Independent Books Imprint.

PA does not market these books to the bookstores, it is still up to the author to contact and convince the bookstore to buy and stock their book, as you can see by reading the posts at www.publishamerica.com/cg.../9828.htm. (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9828.htm.)

I don't believe PA has the cash flow to support even one midlist title with a print run of 5000, much less a bestseller.

Which leads me to the title of our new book
"The Making of a Bestseller: Success Stories From Top Authors and the Editors, Agents and Booksellers Behind Them" March 2005, Dearborn Trade

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[James D Macdonald]

...as you can see by reading the posts at www.publishamerica.com/cg.../9828.htm.

I hope you saved that thread, Dee, because it's gone now.

Speaking of vanished threads, did you get this one?

> Dreamer
>
>
>
> 5/15/2004
> 15:38:21
> Subject: Has anyone else heard this excuse?
>
>
> Message:
> I was anxiously waiting to hear from Waldenbooks at our local mall. She
> was thrilled that I was a local author, and said if I gave her an
> advance copy and all the info, she would order my book in and let me do
> a signing. I gave her the book and all my info last week. However, I
> gave her a follow up call this morning and rec'd disappointing news. She
> ordered just one book she said was in her warehouse. But, refused to
> order any more copies or schedule a signing because my 176 page book,
> LOVE FOR ANGELA is selling for $19.95. She said even if it was $14.95,
> it would be pricy. She's not the first to mention the cost of the books
> being high. Has anyone else been getting comments like this? Donna Marie
> www.donnamarie.us
>
> LBS
>
> 5/15/2004
> 15:48:48
>
> RE: Has anyone else heard this excuse?
>
>
> Message:
> Don't feel too bad...mine is 41 pages color illustrated and retails for
> $19.95!
> I think the gal at Borders is STILL laughing! Wish I was!
>
> Shannon
>




That was http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi- bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9921.htm

It didn't last long. PA is aware that their books are incredibly overpriced. They delete any mention of it from their boards as quickly as they can, because the fiction that their books are reasonably priced and available in stores is the smoke part of the smoke-and-mirrors that they use to lure in new and unsuspecting authors.

[Dodgem James]

Your info is wrong.

It's quite expensive to print a book at LS. I had the breakdown, but I really don't have the time to look it up. You can check out their website if you wish.

Also, no PA doesn't wait the 90 days for a bookstore to pay. They charge up front. And no, they don't have to wait for Ingram to pay either (technically) as Ingram pays LS upfront and LS pays PA. PA does not deal directly with any distributor, it's all done through LS.

(the other) DJ

PS- I have no books on consignment, on the shelves of more than one bookstore, am a member of a prestigious Children's author's organization, and am doing quite well.
I'd go into more detail but, well, I'd rather not get bashed. I may have to speak up for myself and that (apparently) will get me banned.

[Jarocal]

Just advanced search their top ten selling books on Amazon to see they are overpriced. Why would I take a chance on a PA book That I may or may not like when I can get two or three traditionally published books that I may or may not like for the same amount.

That leaves aside any of PA's lack of editing and everything else. If I was looking on a shelf in an actual bookstore (we'll leave that issue out of the scenario too and assume that they have them on the shelf) and saw a line of books none of which were recommended to me and I had not ever heard of any of the authors. I would leave a paperback priced at $25 bucks a copy on the shelf when I can get three similar paperbacks for the same price.

[Jarocal]

Just do an advanced search their top ten selling books on Amazon to see they are overpriced. Why would I take a chance on a PA book That I may or may not like when I can get two or three traditionally published books that I may or may not like for the same amount.

That leaves aside any of PA's lack of editing or any other shortcomings I perceive with them as a publisher. If I was looking on a shelf in an actual bookstore (we'll leave that issue out of the scenario too and assume that they have them on the shelf) and saw a line of books none of which were recommended to me and I had not ever heard of any of the authors. I would leave a paperback priced at $25 bucks a copy on the shelf when I can get three similar paperbacks for the same price.

[DaveKuzminski]

Actually, Deejay is very close to correct. I consulted with an editor whose publishing house uses Lightning Source. There is a $100 setup fee and print cost is per page. A 300-page book will cost right at $5.00 to print.

Now let's do a little math. If a book is priced at $20.00, then the publisher will have to sell 8 copies to reach the breakeven point. In fact, that point occurs within the eighth copy so there's actually a $13 net to the publisher if the publisher is paying $1 in royalties for each copy sold. After this point is reached, the publisher is making $14 per copy sold. If the publisher reaches what many have touted to be an average of 75 sales, then the net to the publisher will be $1,019. This, of course, does not take into account salaries for the people working at the publisher. That would presumably reduce the net figure before the actual profit can be determined. However, without knowing precisely how many people work for the publisher and what they're paid, we really can't determine what the true profit is since it's bound to be lower.

Of course, since some publishers are charging more than the average price for books produced by Lightning Source, that means that their profit margin is clearly higher than those of other publishers while their costs remain the same. This also means that a certain publisher is making a killing on books that are less than 300 pages in length because that reduces the printing expense and increases the net.

Edited to note that dollars are US based.

[James D Macdonald]

PA doesn't have the costs that other publishers do (editing, copyediting, bookstore catalog, promotions, distribution, returns), and does everything else as cheaply and half-assedly as possible. Their profit per-book is much higher than other publishers who do those things (who are selling books to the general public rather than to the authors).

When authors make large bulk purchases, as they are encouraged to do, I'm certain that the books are printed on offset presses by a short-run printer rather than by LSI, bringing the unit cost of the book down farther.

The reason PA doesn't send advance review copies to legitimate reviewers is because that's a cost that's only made up with bookstore sales to the general public. Since bookstore sales to the general public aren't part of PA's business plan, they can skip that step, and its associated costs.

[Ed Williams 3]

"I have no books on consignment, on the shelves of more than one bookstore, am a member of a prestigious Children's author's organization, and am doing quite well."

Per the Amazon info on your PA book...

Paperback: 204 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.54 x 9.14 x 6.06
Publisher: PublishAmerica; (September 8, 2003)
ISBN: 1592866816

Average Customer Review: Based on 1 review. Write a review.

There is no sales ranking. Why do you keep defending PA, can you honestly say that they have helped you get your book out to the masses?

[James D Macdonald]

Canada James has special circumstances that allow him to get bookstore shelving in a limited area. Few other PA authors have that same advantage.

Since he advertises his book on his webpage with a direct link to PA rather than to Amazon, a nil Amazon number isn't surprising.

[DaveKuzminski]

Gee, I received an email asking me to be gentler on PublishAmerica. Upon reading the woman's claim that her book has sold only a few copies, it occurred to me that I haven't asked about PublishAmerica's claim of selling one million books. Consequently, I'm adding another question for their authors to answer. In particular, this one gives them an opportunity to brag on how well their publisher is doing for them. Here's what I'm posting soon:

If you were published by PublishAmerica, how many copies of your book were sold through PublishAmerica's bookstore and other bookstores? Please include the book title and do not count copies you purchased using your author discount

The total reported for More than 1000 is: 0
More than 100 is: 0
and for Less than 100 is: 0

[Jarocal]

They sold one million books and have what 3500 that have been published so far? Thats 285 copies sold per release on average. If you use their figure of 8000 authors the number drops to 125 copies per title. I would brag about 1,000,000 books too loud if I am only averaging 285 copies sold per title. Those figures even include the copies the author buys from the publisher.

[Teena Haywood]

While reading this thread a thought occurred to me.

Umm...I wonder how much it costs PA to put each authors' book cover design on Amazon, Booksamillion, B&N and other online bookstores? :shrug

[James D Macdonald]

It costs the price of an email to put the book covers on those on-line bookstores.

[DaveKuzminski]

Keep in mind that this sales claim covers PublishAmerica's output for how many years? One? Two? Three? More?

Would they still have a million books sold (as they claim) if they couldn't count those purchased by their own authors at a discount? Would they even have as many as ten thousand sold without the author purchases?

How many books does any other publisher with hundreds of authors publish in one year?

[DeePower]

PA uses two figures.

From their email to me dated May 20.

"Again, the tone of your letter is way out of place. Soon we will sell our one millionth book! Neither your fax nor your registered letter reached the intended recipient. Future paper letters from you will be discarded unread.

If, after reading our bulleted refutations below, you still wish to end your contract, please renew your request, using support@publishamerica.com as your sole point of contact." End quote

And from the same email several paragraphs later

"In the past two years we have sold more than a quarter of a million books, which stands in contrast to any allegation that our books are not competitively priced and/or supplied."

And as to the pricing of PA books from that same email

" On price: Your question may be answered in this detailed discussion of this issue, and the info below:

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/6842.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/6842.htm)

Contrary to what you may have been told, bookstores will generally carry a book that they think will sell, regardless of price, whether it is returnable or not, and whether it is printed on digital or offset presses. You may have found a number of books that are less expensive than yours will be, but we have found a large number of similar books that are more
expensive.

We know that our pricing is not deterring sales. We have found that pricing is simply not nearly the significant issue that some may think it is.
Remember too, that we are just as eager to sell books as you are, and would do things differently if we thought it appropriate.

In the past two years we have sold more than a quarter of a million books, which stands in contrast to any allegation that our books are not competitively priced and/or supplied.

All of our books are so-called "trade paperbacks", with most of them 6 inches by 9 inches in size. Trade paperbacks are what you find in your local bookstore. There is another type of book called "mass paperback". The size of these is considerably smaller, their paper quality is much cheaper, and they are mostly available in supermarkets and convenience stores.

They are often priced in the $6 to $9 range, and are mostly the books to which you are comparing yours. In our industry, comparing trade paperbacks with mass paperbacks is like comparing apples and oranges. The cheaper mass paperbacks sell significantly less, statistically, than the more expensive trade paperbacks. In fact, the rate of unsold copies that go back to the publisher for destruction is three times higher than the rate for the higher priced trade paperbacks."

END OF quote

Interestinly we didn't compare our book at $21.95 to the cost of a mass market paperback. Our complaint was that the book should have been priced at most $19.95.

Dee
www.brianhillanddeepower.com (http://www.brianhillanddeepower.com)

[SRHowen]

I do buy hardcover books, once and awhile if the author is someone I buy everything they write from. (ick that's an awful sentence) But anyway.

I pay generally about 20 some bucks. I have paid as much as 10 bucks for a paper back book--huge fat thing. And mass market books only in available in grocery stores and convenience stores?

What drugs are they on?

Shawn

[DeePower]

I just had to post this from the PA board, the first is a message from "Sirat" who questioned PA's response to the pricing issue. SCroll way down to the middle of
www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/6842.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/6842.htm)

RE: PublishAmerica's Pricing Policy

From: Sirat
Message:
Obviously I can't argue in detail with the PublishAmerica representative regarding the money breakdown because only they know how much things cost and what the profit margins are. But surely there is some reason for the almost universally held perception that their prices are very much on the high side. I agree that comparisons with vanity publishers are not entirely appropriate, but in fact publishers like iUniverse charge MORE (not less) for their product than most conventional publishers, and PublishAmerica would come out even worse if compared with the average small conventional publisher - very much worse if compared with large conventional publishing houses. I find it hard to believe that the profit margin could be as little as one dollar per book. Is that the margin after all overheads and wages are paid I wonder? Is it a measure of the company's capital growth that we are talking about? I am not arguing that PublishAmerica should set out to make less money, rather that by lowering the unit price a little they are likely to make more, and our books are likely to sell more copies and reach a bigger audience. But even if we accept everything that PublishAmerica has said, it would appear that page length is the deciding factor so if my book is 170 pages long and the $19.95 figure is based on a 225 page average length book, then mine should still be considerably cheaper than that $19.95 "average". I think PublishAmerica has discovered a formula that does in fact "work" which is to create income by selling small numbers of books at a high price to friends and families of writers, with a few "random" sales to people who don't care much about what price they pay, and there are clearly at least some readers in that category, but it is a policy that prevents any kind of volume sales and makes it very unattractive for writers to put money and effort into promoting their books in conventional channels. What would be very revealing would be a breakdown of the number of copies sold to authors at author discount, to people on the list provided by authors, and to people who hear about the book in other ways. I am suggesting that a fairly modest reduction in the cover price would allow far more sales in that third category and hence benefit all of us. I would urge PublishAmerica to move in that direction. I am even willing to pre-order a reasonable quantity of my own book if a reduction in cover price can be negotiated. Effectively I am offering to carry some of the financial risk myself, and perhaps function as a "trial case" to see if a lower cover price increases or decreases the money that PublishAmerica takes in for a title at the end of the year. I am not "complaining", I am trying to reason this out and see if we couldn't make mutually beneficial changes. Just because something "works" doesn't mean that it can't be improved upon.


And the answer below is from PublishAmerica. It astounds me that they are so rude to one of their authors ("Sirat") on a public board.

RE: PublishAmerica's Pricing Policy
From: Infocenter Administrator

Message:
Sirat, let us burst another bubble, before you start sounding like a naysayer with a broken record, which would be unintentional yet remarkable for someone whose book is not even in print yet.

Family and friends are in no way a significant buying force. It is something that an occasional ignorant is fond to scream, "PA relies on your family and friends for their sales, boohoohoo..."

True, no apologies made: as a courtesy we inform, at our sole expense, an author's friends, even if the author lives as far away as Britain, as you do. No other publisher extends this courtesy to its authors, only PA does it.

Wanna know how many of them actually buy the average book, written by their relative or friend?

A whopping, astounding, spectacular 18.

That's right, only eighteen. Hardly enough to pay for a day's trash pickup. That's how much the author's friends care, and it fits seamlessly what you may find at www.publishamerica.com/cg...l/220.htm, (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/220.htm,) the thread called "Is it only me?"

So much for our alleged formula "which is to create income by selling small numbers of books at a high price to friends and families of writers." Thank you for knowing this industry better than we do, and for "not complaining" about something you have yet to experience firsthand.

End of response.


And PublishAmerica says they use the discussion board for marketing.

Dee
www.brianhillanddeepower.com (http://www.brianhillanddeepower.com)

[allion]

Did someone piddle in their Cheerios this morning??

What a snarky response to a valid question from one of their own authors!

That last paragraph is particularly cutting.

[CWGranny]

I notice they didn't touch the question of what percentage of overall sales are to the writer. THAT would be a revealling answer. After all, the bulk of the sales to friends and family probably are directly through the author rather than through the mailing (which many authors have remarked keep getting tossed unopened because it looks so much like junk mail.)

[James D Macdonald]

Family and friends are in no way a significant buying force. It is something that an occasional ignorant is fond to scream, "PA relies on your family and friends for their sales, boohoohoo..."

No, PA doesn't rely on family and friends to buy the books. They rely on you the author to buy the books. You then resell them to family and friends. Boohoohoo.... on you.

No other publisher extends this courtesy to its authors, only PA does it.

Have you wondered why this might be? Because if PA didn't do that, folks could rightly say that they didn't do any marketing at all....

[DeePower]

PA board thread gone!

Damn they're fast! The discussion post PublishAMerica emailed me to justify their pricing is gone.

www.publishamerica.com/cg...l/220.htm, (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/220.htm,)

Good thing I kept a copy.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[DeePower]

I could ask our attorney but that would rack up some bucks and we're already paying to terminate our contract with PublishAmerica.

But I was thinking, what do you think defines fraud.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[Jarocal]

I think it would more matter what the state of Maryland defines as fraud (I believe that's the legal venue cases are handled in but may be wrong, check your contract it should say where).
Not knowing any details of your individual case other than the "email support only" part that has been posted, I am not sure that what PA does fits the legal definition of fraud. They may morally be thieves, but from excerpts of their contract I've seen posted on different sites it is legal and and they do fufill it as written, if not as their advertising seems to imply you get.

[DaveKuzminski]

When someone tells you that a used car isn't used or that it was only driven on Sundays to church by a little old lady when it was actually used in stock car racing, that's fraud regardless of what is written on the contract.

That same logic should be applied to what PublishAmerica is doing. Their claims should be examined and they should be legally forced to correct those claims to avoid any misconceptions those cause within the minds of writers who don't know better.

[DeePower]

I am compiling a list of websites, discussion boards, blogs, discussion lists, and magazines (hard copy and online) that are focused on writers, places like this board, www.writersnet.com, Writers Digest, Writers Magazine, www.writerswrite.com, www.wordsmitten.com.

Can you all email me at mailto:authors@brianhillanddeepower.com
the resources you are aware of.

I will post the final list to this board.

Thanks
Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[CaoPaux]

Whenever I need anything related to writing, I start here: www.internet-resources.com/writers/ (http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/)

[Jarocal]

But in this case it appears to actually deliver what they say they will. They send out the releases they say they will, the books are made available to Brick and Mortar stores. As far as a competitive pricing claim, that would be very subjective and I don't see a judge saying that the books are way overpriced because PA can show titles from traditional publishers in their range.

I wonder if it is just coincidental that both Publish America and Poetry.com are located in Maryland or if the legal definitions of fraud under Maryland state law are in favor of the scammer and a case is harder to prove with their type of operation. They aren't really selling a used car as new.

[DeePower]

I just received this a few moments ago. It seems Pa is hitting up their authors to buy more books, I guess PublishAmerica must be facing a cash shortage. Oh the 80 titles is a little low, there were 142 this week.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)


Dear Author,

We have lots of exciting news to share with you, and it's all because of you.

Thanks to the enthusiasm of authors such as yourself, an average 67 new writers ask us each day if they can join your ranks. They have heard about you, your book, your fellow authors, or your publisher through bookstores, newspapers, magazines, the internet, or through simple word of mouth. Imagine: that is more than 16,000 writers per year. This makes PublishAmerica by far the number one traditional publisher in terms of manuscripts submitted. And since the vast majority of all submitted works never make it through the full acceptance process, it makes you a member of one of the most envied crowds in the publishing world.

PublishAmerica already is the number one traditional publisher with new books in print. Each week we release an average 80 new titles to the industry, we send 110 press releases to the media, and we continue to support more than 150 bookstore or library events.

In May, we sold more books than ever before in our history, one every 18 seconds, causing us to now have the 1-million-books-sold mark in sight! As always, we sold our books all across the globe, including countries as far away as Thailand, France, and Australia, for a total of almost 100 foreign countries served by PublishAmerica authors.

All this is formidable, and it is all thanks to the quality of our authors and the books they have given us the privilege to publish. We congratulate you, and we are letting you know that, as a token of our appreciation, we are now enabling all of our authors to purchase each other's (and their own!) books at steep discounts, such that this enables you to getting to know the quality of your peers' works even better:

1-20 books: 30 pct discount;
21-50 books: 40 pct discount;
51-100 books: 45 pct discount;
101-200 books: 50 pct discount;
201+ books: 55 pct discount.

This special offer expires June 15. Again, the above discount schedule is available to you, and it covers all PublishAmerica titles, including your own. Orders can be placed by phone only, our number is 301 695 1707.
Full-color books are excluded.

Thank you.

[DaveKuzminski]

I see that PublishAmerica used their own editor to check through their notice to their authors. For example, "...such that this enables you to getting to know the ..."

I also observed that those other countries are served by their authors and not by PublishAmerica. For once, they finally got one claim right.

[James D Macdonald]

<BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>All this is formidable, and it is all thanks to the quality of our authors and the books they have given us the privilege to publish. We congratulate you, and we are letting you know that, as a token of our appreciation, we are now enabling all of our authors to purchase each other's (and their own!) books at steep discounts, such that this enables you to getting to know the quality of your peers' works even better:

1-20 books: 30 pct discount;
21-50 books: 40 pct discount;
51-100 books: 45 pct discount;
101-200 books: 50 pct discount;
201+ books: 55 pct discount.
<HR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>

After reading this is there any doubt at all that PA's business plan is selling books to their authors?

That's straight vanity-press, right down the line.

[DeePower]

Below is a post at the PA discussion board about how he has had to sell the books on consignment to independents and how the chains won't consider his book. So much for PublishAmerica's claim that the PA books are available at chain bookstores.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (Http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

The post is below and at
www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9959.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9959.htm)

Scroll nearly to the bottom of the thread.


Message:
DanL & Tom:
My first three signings with Hastings (Victoria, Waco, Stephenville) were fairly successful, about 15 ave./signing. I had to furnish the books on a consignment basis for all three and the percentage varied with each store (20-35). I had local TV coverage at the first signing at Victoria. Good publicity for me as well as Hastings on the 10 O'clock News.
After the third signing and good publicity, some of the Hastings stores gave me the option of them furnishing the books or I furnish the books. One store insisted that they had to furnish the books. They ordered 20. The last three signings have been on the condition that the store order 5-10 books and I furnish the others if those are sold. The first stores, I left books on consignment and would restock when they sold out. Now the stores are ordering replacements after a signing. This past week, a Hastings store asked me to pick-up my consignment books. They would make more profit with them ordering the books.
To answer your question: it appears that success will bred success. You will undoubtedly will have to furnish the books on consignment until your book
proves itself.
I think that Hastings has placed at least one of my books in every one of their Texas stores. They haven't told me this, but every one I call about a signing already has a book in stock.
My success has been only with Hastings. I have books in three private book stores, but the other chain stores kick my butt every time they see me coming. Especially Waldenbooks. Two Barnes and Nobles stores told me they would order a couple of my books to stock, but never did.
I bought all of my books at a 55% discount. This allows me to at least make a small profit on the high consignment percentages.
Good selling!

KW

[CaoPaux]

The discussion of PA’s discount offer: PA's new email to authors!! (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/4247.htm)


On the flip side: I NEED HELP!!!! (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/newauthors/1494.htm)


HRabb04
6/02/2004
15:25:50

Message:
I just recently got a disturbing email from someone at Publish America. They started off by telling me that the editor I had been in touch with is no longer with the company. They also are now claiming they have not received my contract, when they confirmed they had received said contact on May 4 of this year. Also, I am being told, for the second time, to change the title of my book. My original title, Until August, was rejected on late March as it was too close to another title already in production. I then was told to submit a list of alternate titles. The title of All the Time in the World was accepted at that time. However, I am now being told that they have no contact from me and that my second title is now no longer any good--again because someone else already has it. What can I do? What should I do?


Nutter
6/02/2004
15:39:29

Message:
Contracts are binding to both parties. I assume you kept the copies of their E-mails. If so an attorney can provide you with your options. As far as the title to your book it could be an infringement on someone elses copyright. Try coming up with a new title and submit.


Trinity926
6/02/2004
15:56:18

Message:
I would send them a copy of my contract (assuming you kept your copy). And let them know that I will not be changing the title of my book for a second time. According to copyright laws, you can only copyright the text of a manuscript and/or song. I don't think you can copyright a title. Anyone can use a title over and over with no legal repercussions. Although it would seem to be best to use one that has not been used yet. I would say seek legal represeatation asap.

[aka eraser]

That second message has already been poofed by the PA police.

[Jarocal]

I wonder if they keep an archive database of those threads? It would chew up server space, but it would be in their best interest to archive those threads in case someone was bright enough to do so through the simple "email me responses to this thread" feature that is on most Message Boards. Having them emailed directly to an account set up by one's lawyer to save for posterity would be the most damaging to PA's credibility in a courtroom. The message board is a marketing tool but if patterns of disinformation from the PA Moderator being osted before the thread is pulled can be shown, that may help any fraud case against them (especially if they are not saving all those threads on an archive before they delete them).

By not saving them, if one is later produced, PA will have a harder time disproving what was said if all the threads in their possesion were deleted. They could not complain about unlawful copying of a thread either if their system has a "email me responses thread" that was utilized to gather the information.

I also noticed that they picked a new webmaster for their webring. She from outside the company and following which sites end up getting booted from the ring would be a good place to watch for messages from disigruntled PA authors. It is a step or two removed from the company itself and should allow some extra time before pressure can be exerted to drop someone/somthing from being affiliated with the ring. Some of the older Disgruntled people who have been banned from the Message boards may be able to add sites and then add a couple pages explaining the differences between PA and what the Industry, if not the ;aw considers a traditional publisher to be.

[LiamJackson]

<<Each week we release an average 80 new titles to the industry, we send 110 press releases to the media, and we continue to support more than 150 bookstore or library events.>>

Does anyone understand their definition of "the industry"?

Btw, regarding Jim Mac's assertion that a large part of PA's formula for success includes selling mucho books back to the PA authors, I can only offer two observations.

1. Jim is dead on

and

2. The formula seems to be working (see the PA author response to the discount announcement, below.)

<<Message:
Wow!
It does not get any better than this. Now there is no excuse for not buying at least more of our own books.
Herman >>

[Ed Williams 3]

Subject: PA! Who else?


Message:
Why in the world would we want anyone else do our publishing?
I have heard nothing but good things about Publish America since I have been here.

Today I received an e-mail wanting me to give them my business and I toasted the e-mail.
I believe other companies are trying to copy PA's concept and through the reading of the boards they are getting our e-mail addresses, then trying to tempt us.
PA has my vote of confidence.How about the rest of you?"D"

[CaoPaux]

The responses are interesting, too: PA! Who else (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/4260.htm)

[James D Macdonald]

Oh, that one poor guy. Here's his post from that thread:

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>One of my sons is with a "major" book company...big time...He advised PA saying you cannot do better anywhere else.<hr></blockquote>


I can just hear what his son said:

"Dad, I read your book. PublishAmerica is the best that you're going to be able to get."

[Deejay816]

James, you are bad! :rofl But that was too funny!

Deej

[LaVerneRoss]

:gone :cry :smack I see you are discussing my book. I am not hiding anylonger. Night travels of the elven vampire has been taking a lot of flack over at Amazon, from a bunch of fanfic critics from www.fanfiction.net. A group who considers themselves gods of words. You have no doubt seen what they have said. Even on my website, told me to die. Well I am stating here the facts. Anyone knows how to help me out, holler. PA had to know, they are more knowledgable about such things than I am. They had decided on a grassy field for my cover for a vampire novel. Gave me one hour to do better.Been playing with my new software, and seeing what could be done. Unaware of a lot of things, as a newby to writing. Well months ago I ask them to change it, and begged. Finally they did. I have ask them again to remove the person from the tombstone. THey have not responded. I don't care if they remove the book. I gave up on it when I discovered the truth, of it, right after signing, too late then. I did discuss this with VIctoria by email, months ago. What can I do.....

[Tish Davidson]

I can't help but think that if PA authors spent as much time working on a new book as they do posting about PA, which we all know by now is a rip off for authors, they would soon have another book to hawk around to real publishers. I don't see d the value of beating the PA dead horse any more. You lose if anger at PA keeps you from writing more.

[LaVerneRoss]

:huh Some of you might think it a fanfic, but it is not. Neither is the main charactor Legolas. Alaric is not like him, and his model is more to the charactor of a movie 20 years ago, similar to LOTR. A dark haired elf. As you know I am the author. Yes it has flaws, and needed a good editor. I have learned a lot in the past year, and have written two more novels. Not sitting around trying to push this novel. I wrote it off, when I found the truth. The is more a series of ghost stories with two main charactors...two vampires, one sangreine and one psi. I have talked with others who read it, and they found no connection to the other charactors. I am from the south, and like to write about it. There is a plantation in our family, I used that. The south doesn't belong to Rice, or the creator of Gone with the wind, or Elves to Tolkien. My charactors have flaws, and have strong emotions, and not wooden.
Numerous times I have ask PA about the cover, and ask it to be changed, and ignored. I wrote again tonight. They don't care. They knew and didn't care. They know (supposedly all the legal stuff, concerning publishing) unlike a newby like myself.

[Teena Haywood]

"I can't help but think that if PA authors spent as much time working on a new book as they do posting about PA, which we all know by now is a rip off for authors, they would soon have another book to hawk around to real publishers."

Tish:
Many PA authors (or ex-PAers) have gone on with their lives. Some have even had books published by Traditional Publishers. I would suggest that you read www.mindsightseries.com for proof of my statement. It's nothing wrong with posting about PA (be it good or bad) or any other publisher for that matter.

Look at the postings in a positive way. They might possibly save a new writer from signing a contract with PA. Forums are the only way to warn new writers about the pitfalls of getting published by certain publishing houses and I thank God for Absolute Write, P&E and others.

Also, it doesn't mean that the writers are spending a great deal of time posting their messages. Come on, how long can it possibly take to write a thread? One minute to five minutes?
:shrug . In essence this leaves a writer the rest of the day to concentrate on their writing skills.

LeVerne:
I'm sorry about the problems you've encountered. Have you might considered requesting your contract back from PA? I noticed in your post that you've are continuing to write. That's wonderful!! Don't give up on your dream(s). :heart

[LaVerneRoss]

Yea teena,
I am not waiting for success to come from this book. I look higher and better. I have hopes for my books to do well with real publishers, who give advances, and put them in real stores.
I recieved an email from PA today, told this was their last word on the subject, and they changed my cover last week on good faith. Finally. But haven't seen any new cover.
I think any further emails from me will be ignored now. Contracts are pretty impossible to get out of. When you are ignored. Can't afford lawyers anyway, am disabled and on fixed income.
I am not giving up, I write every day. I learn new stuff everyday about writing too. Doesn't matter if its a good book or not, it will never be taken seriously. This lesson was costly.

[CaoPaux]

Getting out of PA's contract is discussed a few places on this board, including here: How do I get out of PA contract? (http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm32.showMessage?topicID=57.topic)

Good luck.

[LaVerneRoss]

Thanks for the link. I did check it out. I had written them before and got no reponse. Was wondering with the stink over the cover, if it would be the wrong time, if certain lawyers were fixing to file lawsuits. Or would it be the best time, since they are angry with me, for bugging them to change it, and the knowledge that a lot of people now know, and they can't ignore it anymore.

[James D Macdonald]

Another <a href="http://p197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm32.showMessage?topicID=24.topic" target="_new">how to get your book back from PA</a>thread.

[LaVerneRoss]

Thanks James, They are so mad at me at the moment, maybe they would release me. But they like to ignore me anyway. They claim they changed the cover last week. If anyone finds out for sure let me know. I am going to use a pen name for other writings, after all this. I don't claim my book when I contact other publishers. Ashamed to do so, with its errors, its not the book I wrote. But like they say we learn from our mistakes. It cost us books to do so. But I think my best books are still to come. Though I want this one back to fix.
Have you heard anything about them having options on our second books? I didn't see it in my contract. Have a good weekend.


www.freewebs.com/elven_vampire/ (http://www.freewebs.com/elven_vampire/)

[James D Macdonald]

I'm told PA has an option clause. If you could send me your contract, I'd be happy to look through it to see what's in yours.

(I am not a lawyer, nor an agent, though.)

[astonwest]

Most of the newer contracts have had the option clause (I'm assuming this means the same thing as right of first refusal...so if it's something different, I would love to hear what it is) removed...old timers such as myself still had them in...

The trick, though, is that even though they have the 'right of first refusal', doesn't mean that the author and publisher will agree on the terms of the contract...and if both parties can't come to a mutually accepted agreement, the contract has been fulfilled......

(For the second contract they offered me, I requested changes to all sorts of things (editing, royalties, etc.)...what they offered up in response was unacceptable...so they declined my second work, and I'm free to ship it anywhere now)

[LaVerneRoss]

My contract as of last March does not mention any other book I write. So I am clear of that. But concerned about this, it sounds as though it you don't buy you lose your book for good, if it doesn;'t sell.
" when in judgement of the publisher the public demand for the work is no longer sufficient to warrent its continued manufacture, the publisher many discontinue further manufacture and destroy any or all plates, books, sheets, and electron ic files without any liability in connection therewith to the author. However the publisher agrees to notify the author of such decision in writing and will offer to transfer to the author the work and its rights in the copyrights thereon, the plates , the bound copies and sheet stock on the following terms, F.O.B. point of shipments. The plates at their value for the old metal, the engravings, at on-half price of the original cost, the bound stock at 0ne-half the list price and the sheet stock at cost of gathering, folding, sewing and preparing for shipment, all without royalities. In the latter even unless the author shall, within 30 days, accept said offer and pay the amount set forth in said writing, the publisher may dispose of the work, copyrights, plates, books, sheets and other property without further liability for royalities or otherwise."
If no one did anything to promote their book, and it didn't sell, you lose it perminently. Why should the author have to buy it, if they don't want it anylonger? They could sell it to anyone.

[Jarocal]

LaVerne:

"when in judgment of the publisher the public demand for the work is no longer sufficient to warrant its continued manufacture, the publisher many discontinue further manufacture and destroy any or all plates, books, sheets, and electron ic files without any liability in connection therewith to the author. However the publisher agrees to notify the author of such decision in writing and will offer to transfer to the author the work and its rights in the copyrights thereon, the plates , the bound copies and sheet stock on the following terms, F.O.B. point of shipments."

Normally PA keeps them the seven years and does not renew them. At that point the author has a chance to get everything related to their book back. All the nonsense following about plates, and sheet stock really does not apply as they use digital printing. There have been instances where they have claimed to have 49 copies of a book in stock and used that as a means to bilk a little more money out of the author in order for the author to get the rights to their book back. They have not done this with everyone and since it would be simple enough to find out when they ordered the 49 books from lightning source to prove whether it was true if they had 49 copies in stock, I have not heard of them doing this for a while. If the author agrees to buy all the junk associated with making the book and the on-hand inventory the rights go back to the author. Pa cannot dispose of the book without first contacting the author and offering them the opportunity to get it back first.

[LaVerneRoss]

If your book stopped selling before the 7 years are up. You don't want to buy those books, and you just want the rights to your book back. Can you without buying? If they stop printing it, doesn't it revert back to the author?
As to the end of the contract. Again if you don't buy the books, since there never is any in stock anyway. IS the book yours again to do whatever with?
My contract says nothing about at the end of the contract period of 7 years, except they can extend it with agreement from the author.
I did contact a lawyer who deals with writers, actors and other entertainers and their rights. I ask him about this, and the damn cover. Waiting for his response. I let him know who the publisher is too.
I found if you dont' want them to take your second book. Make a mess of the first few pages, and ask for the moon, lots of free books, and special covers, and special editing.....:grin . They don't like that at all. Then you are free. Send it in with your manuscript, in your letter, saying when you publish this, I want these things......

[Jarocal]

I am not sure. According to their website the only rights they have are the book rights. As the use Print On Demand technology there should be no copies of your book in inventory to buy. If they cease to want to print your book they should have to return the rights to you. As all of the possible buy out provisions should not apply, except for the couple of copies they may claim to have in inventory, it should be no big deal to get the rights back and they aren't going to order a large number for their inventory because of the capital outlay they would have to pay LSI and still run the risk of you saying "keep it, it's not worth that much to me".

There are not a lot of instances where a book that has languished in PA's catalog for seven years is going to get many offers without a rewrite, even if it is the perfect manuscript I don't think many other publishers would buy the book rights from PA due to not wanting entangled with PA's reputation, or any legal battle than may ensue from the author trying to get the rights back from PA. It would be more trouble than it is worth to them when they have piles of submissions in their own office that they can acquire more easily.

When all is said and done I think it is easier to continue writing books and let that one stay forgotten on the PA shelves. After seven years or when it has not sold a single copy for a while they will decide to send your book back to you. If they want their inventory bought out, see how many copies it is and get a lawyer to find out from lightning source when those copies were ordered. If it is close to or after the date that they sent you the letter stating their requirements for you to get the book rights back then you have a case that they are trying to defraud you for <insert $ amount>.

[James D Macdonald]

"... when in judgment of the publisher ...

<Blockquote>

</blockquote>

... the public demand for the work is no longer sufficient to warrant its continued manufacture, ...

<Blockquote>
[What do they mean? We're talking PoD here. With PoD even one order should be sufficient to warrant continued manufacture, since the books are manufactured one at a time.]
</blockquote>

... the publisher many discontinue further manufacture and destroy any or all plates, ...

<Blockquote>
[Since the books are only manufactured when an order comes it, how would you tell that they'd discontinued the manufacture of a book that hadn't had any orders? And these are books produced by digital printing technology -- there [i]aren't any plates.]
</blockquote>


... books, sheets, ...

<Blockquote>
[There aren't any sheets, either. These books aren't printed on sheets that are later folded and bound. It looks like a lot of this verbiage is copied from other, older, book contracts in an attempt to throw up a smoke screen.]
</blockquote>

... and electronic files without any liability in connection therewith to the author. However the publisher agrees to notify the author of such decision in writing and will offer to transfer to the author the work and its rights in the copyrights thereon, ...

<Blockquote>
[PA doesn't have any rights in the copyrights on these books. The books are copyrighted by the authors, at the authors' personal expense. PA is asserting at right that they don't possess.]
</blockquote>


... the plates, ...

<Blockquote>
[As above, there aren't any.]
</blockquote>

... the bound copies

<blockquote>
[Under the digital PoD model there shouldn't be any.]
</blockquote>

... and sheet stock ...

<Blockquote>
[Again referring to a non-existent item.]
</blockquote>


... on the following terms, F.O.B. point of shipment. The plates at their value for the old metal,...

<Blockquote>
[This is clearly lifted from an antique publishing contract. The reference is to the old hot-metal printing plates that predated photo-offset.]
</blockquote>


... the engravings,...

<Blockquote>
[Which likewise don't exist in the digital process.]
</blockquote>


... at one-half price of the original cost,

<blockquote>
[Assuming they hired an engraver. Yeah, right.]
</blockquote>

... the bound stock at one-half the list price and the sheet stock ...

<Blockquote>
[PA books aren't printed on individual sheets that are later gathered, folded, or sewn. They're talking about old technology here. This is clearly lifted from an old contract in an attempt to confuse the author.]
</blockquote>


...at cost of gathering, folding, sewing and preparing for shipment,...

<Blockquote>
[There isn't a single PA book anywhere that's been sewn. This is an attempt to charge money for services that aren't, and can't be, rendered. The "cost of ... preparing for shipment" is undefined -- it can be anything their little hearts desire.]
</blockquote>

... all without royalties. In the latter event unless the author shall, within 30 days, accept said offer and pay the amount set forth in said writing, the publisher may dispose of the work, copyrights, ...

<Blockquote>
[Ah ha! There's the sting! Unless you pay whatever money they ask for, they're asserting a right to dispose of the work and the copyright. By signing this contract, you've assigned the copyright to them when the book is no longer being offered for sale. Don't you feel like a sucker now?]
</blockquote>


... plates,...

<Blockquote>
[Which don't exist. This is just more smokescreen so you won't notice the word "copyrights" that came just before it.]
</blockquote>

... books, sheets ...

<Blockquote>
[There aren't and never were any sheets, and under the PoD model there shouldn't be any books, since books are only printed when they are ordered.]
</blockquote>

... and other property without further liability for royalties ...

<Blockquote>
["Other property" is what? And they won't give you any money in any case. This is another scam clause here. Suppose they had (for some obscure reason) a hundred copies of the book lying around. You've just given them the right to sell those books and not pay you the (pitiful) royalty that they'd normally owe you. A real publisher would pay you the royalties. Not PA. And you've signed off on it. Sucker.]
</blockquote>

...or otherwise."

<Blockquote>
[This is supposedly the contract that lawyers love? The contract that's supposedly so clear and straightforward? Did you notice how in the final sentence you made it so they're not liable for anything? Notice that the one thing that they have that might actually be of value -- the electronic files -- aren't being transferred to the author. This contract is as bogus as everything else PA does.]
</blockquote>

[LaVerneRoss]

Thanks James, you got that right. Can't they get into trouble for any of that? They misrepresent that part. After all they tell us writers that they are traditional publishers. Who is the printer, Ben Franklin with the equipment? See they get your book even at the end, unless you pay the ransom.
Heres #8
No payment shall be made to the author for permission gratuitously given to others to publish extracts fromt he said literary work to benefit the sale thereof, but all compensation in book form, or for translations, or for abridgments, or as a book club selection, shall be divided in the porportion of 50% to the author and 50% to the publisher. All compensation recieved by the publisher for the dramatic or motion picture rights, or for the first serial rights, prior to book publications, or for foereign, radio, dramatic, cheap edition, televison, and or all other rights in the said literary work shall be similiarly divided between the author and the publisher, as hereabove set forth.
First serial rights? cheap edition( is that the ebooks?) What lawyer would say it was a good contract?

[James D Macdonald]

Just a couple of brief comments....

Can't they get into trouble for any of that?

Probably not. After all, it's your responsibility to read and understand the contract that you signed. Morally, they're culpable. I doubt that they are legally.

They misrepresent that part. After all they tell us writers that they are traditional publishers.

They don't say that in the contract, if I recall correctly. More, another clause in the contract that you sign states that the contract itself is the sole inducement that caused you to sign with them.

What that means is: They could claim on their website, in their messageboard, in private email and telephone conversations, and on billboards across America that being published with PublishAmerica would give you white teeth, thin thighs, and a date with a major movie star on Friday night. Yet when those things didn't happen you wouldn't have cause to complain because you'd agreed that the only reason you were signing the contract was the contract itself (which didn't say a thing about teeth, thighs, or dates).

[James D Macdonald]

Here's #8

No payment shall be made to the author for permission gratuitously...

<blockquote>
[I'm not certain that 'gratuitously' is the best word here. True, 'gratuitously' primarily means 'Given or granted without return or recompense,' but the meaning 'Unnecessary or unwarranted; unjustified' is sure to pop into mind.]
</blockquote>

... given to others to publish extracts from the said literary work to benefit the sale thereof, ...

<blockquote>
[You don't get paid for short bits of the work being used to advertise the work, provided they don't get paid either. Not that they're going to try to advertise the work -- nothing here says that they must -- but it's nice to think they might, eh?]
</blockquote>


... but all compensation in book form, ...

<blockquote>
[That's bizarrely worded. Is that an accurarate transcription of the contract?]
</blockquote>


...or for translations, or for abridgments, or as a book club selection, shall be divided in the proportion of 50% to the author and 50% to the publisher.

<blockquote>
[Don't they take, in other sections of the contract, worldwide book rights for seven years, plus electronic, reprint, translation, serial, book club, and abridgement rights? Can the author legitimately even attempt to sell those rights? Does this mean "we'll take half the money if any of these things sell, but we won't bestir ourselves to market them, and you can't either"?]
</blockquote>

All compensation received by the publisher for the dramatic or motion picture rights, or for the first serial rights, prior to book publication, or for foreign, radio, dramatic, cheap edition, ...

<blockquote>
['Cheap edition' usually means mass market paperback, though I suppose one could make a case they mean electronic/e-book rights by the phrase.]
</blockquote>


... television, and/or all other rights in the said literary work shall be similiarly divided between the author and the publisher, as hereabove set forth.

<blockquote>
["All other rights" is the tricky bit here. They're asserting ownership of all rights. They want 50% of everything. If lightning strikes and you sell your novel to Hollywood on your own, this looks like they're going to want half.]
</blockquote>

[DaveKuzminski]

As I've been stating for years now, it's a poor contract that's unfair to writers, the majority of whom do not have the knowledge themselves to properly interpret a contract and are too poor to hire a lawyer to do so. In fact, most attorneys are not expert enough in intellectual property matters to be of much use because it's a specialized field, so it further means seeking out one who is.

However, many courts do look at what was stated within advertisements as an inducement regardless of what the contract might state.

What I'd really like to see is for one writer to sue PublishAmerica based upon their statements without settling out of court for the right to force PublishAmerica to back up their claims such as getting their books into brick and mortar stores.

I also believe there are enough misleading statements in the contract to void it in court as predatory.

[Ed Williams 3]

Subject: Have you had this problem?


Message:
I am a first time author, and my new book, "Untouchable Legend" has been out for a little while now. The bookstores in the town where I was born and raised are not stocking it, nor are the bookstores in the major city I live in now. I have been met with the reply that "the book is POD, and I will be stuck with it if I buy it to sell". I told the one I just got off the phone with that I was the author, and to my knowledge the book isn't POD, but when you get right down to it, I don't think any publisher just prints up hundreds of thousands of one book and sits on them (with the exception of some vanity publishers I'm sure), which makes every publisher a POD. He didn't seem to like that too well, and in general had a snotty attitude overall. Guess I can strike that store off my possible booksigning list.
My question is, has anyone else met with this same situation, and if so, what did you do to overcome it. I think it is pitiful that I am selling off the shelves in another state, but the stores in my hometown(s) won't even stock it and at least put it in their local section. I am happy that it is at least selling somewhere, but I have mixed feelings that the places that I devoted my adult life thus far to protecting and serving as a VOLUNTEER Deputy Sheriff and Firefighter won't even order at least one or two just to see if they will sell.
I know that I should be happy to have just gotten to serve my community, and I am. I wouldn't trade a minute of it for 10 books on the best seller's list. It's just aggravating. If anyone can help, by all means jump in. OKay, I feel a little better now.

Jeremy Todd
Untouchable Legend

Terrance B

6/05/2004
21:28:53


RE: Have you had this problem?


Message:
I have yet to experience what you're going through Jeremy, but I can imagine it must be very disturbing (to say the least).

SandyDe

6/05/2004
21:37:00
RE: Have you had this problem?


Message:
I, like Terrance, haven't gotten to the point that you're at. But I do understand, it is a hard road we travel.

Sandy
www.sandyslibrary.com

ps...hey Terrance....



Renee Bagley

6/05/2004
22:07:56


RE: Have you had this problem?


Message:
Jeremy,

There are probably a lot of other options for you to go. The one I think of is ask them if they will let you bring your own books into their store on consigment. This has worked for me adn a lot of other authors. Of course if you can think of a better way (and I'm sure there is one) then do that.

On consignment I offer Hastings a 20% discount off my books I keep 80%. I will not give them any more than that, though some do and that is their choice.

This could be an option for you though.

You won't get a royalty this way but I've made more money in some aspects doing it that way.

I wish you all the success in the world keep trying!

Renee
www.authorsden.com/reneebagley (http://www.authorsden.com/reneebagley)

Jeremy_Todd

6/05/2004
22:30:19


RE: Have you had this problem?


Message:
Thanks Sandy and Terrence for your sympathy. It is very frustrating. From what I have learned thus far in my short writing career, that POD is pretty nuch the mark of death to an author. I hope there is some way to overcome this. Take care and thanks for your feedback.

Jeremy Todd
Untouchable Legend

Jeremy_Todd

6/05/2004
22:34:45


RE: Have you had this problem?


Message:
Renee,

I do have one bookstore which is a mom and pop store that is wanting to do just what you mentioned. I ordered some to sell to people I work with and abroad. If I were to go this route, how would I figure the example of a 20% discount-does that come off the retail price or my price? I am also going to enlist the help of a retired police lieutenant to help me get the word out. I just got off the phone a little while ago with my local Borders, and the night manager was more enthusiastic about the possiblity of a booksigning by a local author than I was. So, maybe the evening isn't a total waste. Thanks Renee for your help too. I wish you all the luck in the world also.

Jeremy
Untouchable Legend

Terrance B

6/05/2004
22:39:04


RE: Have you had this problem?


Message:
Hey Sandy!

Terrance B

6/05/2004
22:41:15


RE: Have you had this problem?


Message:
Hey, anytime I can be of help Jeremy, just post something and sooner or later I'll stop by. Ask anyone here!!!

Renee Bagley

6/05/2004
22:52:41


RE: Have you had this problem?


Message:
Jeremy,

I give the 20% off the retail price. Plus if you are like me you can order your books when PA gives a huge author discount/special promotion, which gives you more profits in your pocket.

I don't tell bookstores what discount I get from PA. I offer the 20% and they go for it. Which is still a good deal.

I had a longer reply but my computer keeps illegal operationing...I hope this helps.

renee@htcomp.net

Jeremy_Todd

6/05/2004
22:58:27


RE: Have you had this problem?


Message:
I just caught that I misspelled your name Terrance. Sorry about that. I was in a hurry to get the post on there. I hope you accept my apologies.

Jeremy

Jeremy_Todd

6/06/2004
10:47:08


RE: Have you had this problem?


Message:
Yeah, that helps Renee. Thanks ever so much. Nice picture by the way.

Jeremy

donnamiddlestad

6/06/2004
12:01:34


RE: Have you had this problem?


Message:
Jeremy; Word of mouth is a great sales tool. I gave a few copies of my book to friends that frequent a local restaurant. Every time I go there people are talking about my book. When asked where to buy it I tell them to order it from local stores or go online. I believe it is working!

Donna
"Little Miss No Name"
www.littlemissnoname.com


Jeremy_Todd

6/06/2004
12:43:40


RE: Have you had this problem?


Message:
Donna,
I have put up a flyer at a pizza joint (guess you can tell I'm from the country) close to where I work. All the people that work there have ordered one or bought one from me directly. They have also had people call back and want the website addresses to where they can order one, as well as, write down the information on the top of their pizza boxes when they come in to pick up their orders. So, guess I am a celebrity there at least, and you know something, it gets me extra cheese at no extra cost, hehe.
But yeah, I learned a long time ago that word of mouth is very powerful. I have put up flyers in laundromats, salons, and in the office of my apartment complex. I too have mentioned, rather loudly, about the book while out in public with friends. I have been working a lot of hours at my "real job" and haven't had much opportunity to get out and do more things. I am sure I'll figure out some way around this obstacle. I knew it wasn't going to be easy, if it were, then everybody would be a writer, right? I am giving serious consideration to Renee's suggestion of consignment. Thanks Donna for the help, and to everyone that has posted. It makes me feel so much better to hear from you. Hope everyone has a great weekend, well, what's left of it anyway.

Jeremy

[James D Macdonald]

...and to my knowledge the book isn't POD, but when you get right down to it, I don't think any publisher just prints up hundreds of thousands of one book and sits on them....

The PA book is PoD, in that they print them up after the order comes in. They say this right on their webpage -- what does anyone think PoD is? When PublishAmerica claims they aren't a PoD, they're lying.

In fact, all legitimate publishers print up thousands of books at once. They don't just sit on them, though. They ship them to bookstores, to sell to the general public. Those that don't sell, the bookstores can return for credit. That way the bookstores are willing to order up bunches of the books; they know they won't be stuck with unsalable stock.

That's the difference between traditional publishers and the vanity PoDs like PA.

[LaVerneRoss]

That is what the contract said, I copied it word for word. In #1 it does state in any country they want to put the book. All rights. I'd like to see someone who has the emails to prove all PA promised, and can afford a lawyer take them down too.
#29 states, (word for word)
All unresolved disputes and controversies of any kind and nature within the scope of this agreement(whether arising from fraud, mistake, questions, of the existence, validity, construction, performance,nonperformance, operation or breach) shall be submitted to an arbitrator selected in accordance with the voluntary labor arbitration rules of the american arbitration association. The arbitration shall be conducted in the city of Frederick, Maryland in accordance with the Arbitration rules and the decision of the arbitrator shall be final and binding on the parties to the preceeding, subject only to the right of judicial relief as prescribes by law. This agreement shall be governed and construed in accordance with the laws of the state of maryland. Author and Publisher irrevocably submit to the jurisdiction of any maryland state or federal court sitting in the city of frederick over any suit related to this agreement.

[scorpauthor]

I have been following these threads for sometime now. So please excuse the venting, but maybe a few authors will think twice before using PA. For all those authors that believe PA is GodÕs answer to authors, remember PT Barnum appropriate quote, "There is a sucker born every minute." If you care not to advance your writing or want to brag, "IÕm a publish author," then stay on the PA team where you are welcomed into the commune as long as you keep filling Willem MeinerÕs pockets.

Seventy percent of the authors at PA will not use them again, 10% donÕt give a damn, and the other 20% continently lie about how quick their writing careers are advancing. One author had the guts to flaunt on the Internet that Fox and Time Warner requested his screenplay based on a book that PA published in February. Just to get in the door at either you got to have a high profile agent. And if you got that, then you sure as hell donÕt need PA as a publisher. Hello!! Some of us did not go to school just to learn how to eat lunch.

Yes IÕm lashing out against PA, because I have earned the right to when I got locked into two contracts before my first book was sold and I like so many, thought, a couple of years ago, they were a traditional publisher.

Beside PAÕs cut and paste editing where they butchered my manuscript, refuse to correct it like they said they would and sold my book without my final approval.

But the biggie was six months later, I caught PA red-handed trying to steal over $400 on royalties owed to me. After 4 months of e-mail and letter bombardment (including several certified with threats to call the Federal Trade Commission) and phone calls, which I was hung up on, I finally got a check. But it was 25% short, due to the fact, I sold enough to bump me to their next royalty level and they refuse to cut loose the extra 2%. Weeks later, I get this rude letter where they cancelled my first contract, using the contract clause, Ônot enough public interest.Õ And a week later my second, quoting, I was Ôdelaying publication,Õ when I refuse to accept their editing.

Instead of wasting another stamp to get my remaining 25%, I follow through with my threat, and filled a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission and sent them all my documentation. Bluntly, why would ANY author do business, let alone defend any publisher who got caught stealing.

I still wonder how many books I really sold, but I really wonder how many other authors have they suckered, lied, bamboozle and ripped off in books. I read the threads of those poor souls at PA wondering how many books they sold. Most of the PA authors THINK, they make royalties whatever they buy. They better read their contract. PA does not give royalties on author buys, but they sure make you believe you will. If enough people start filing complaints, PA will be shut down. But the problem, everyone likes to bitch, but step up to the mound, is another story.

To get out of your contract from PA start e-mailing and writing (the same) letters to Willem Meiners and C. Comer (once a week and be a pest) and number each one at the heading, request #2, #3. #4, etc.

Then asked , "Due to the amount of bad PR I have been hearing and reading about PA, what guarantees me that PA is still going to be still in business two years from now?" And at the same time, tell them they are in breached of their contract for failing to provide editing and send them a bill if you paid someone to review after you got your proofs and flood them with letters that YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THE WORK. And if the book is published, you will file a claim with the FTC for fraud based on the quality clause in their contract and most important, breach of BAD Faith. It worked for me with no attorney fees, when both book rights were returned. Now I have two books under consideration by two major publishers.



PA will sucker you with more harm than good. But most important, PA discourages lot of good authors into thinking this is how ALL publishers operate and at the same time, give egos to their commune authors WHO HONESTY BELIEVE they are the next Hemingway or Clancy.

Thanks everyone for letting me vent.

[CaoPaux]

Somebody Is Slamming PA (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/10102.htm)

I believe this is the “slam” in question: IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/board/bd0000052/thread/9020281)


This is just a message that made me go “huh?”:

My Letter From JK Rowlings Agent (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/4363.htm)

I admire the agent’s professionalism.

[DaveKuzminski]

I noticed from HB's remark that he appears to have received his monthly pep talk from PA and is pushing their agenda once more with enthusiasm.

I chuckled over the remark by another individual that P&E is promoting PA. I only wish I could reveal which authors have written me to express that they wished they had first believed the warnings on P&E instead of going forward with PA.

[aka eraser]

Geez. It's only 1:04 pm. Way too early for a drink. I've got to read those PA posts later in the day.

[FM St George]

hey, don't worry - HB's getting the third book in his mega-epic published and he's working on the fourth!

*chuckles*

guess he gave up on getting legitimately published...

so it goes...

[CaoPaux]

I have a confession to make: I’m addicted to the psychology of it all. :o

Jealous People (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/4308.htm)

[FM St George]

true - there is a certain attraction, like watching a car wreck.

I mean, here are all these people bragging about how they're now too famous for their friends to stand it - when what's probably happened is that either their friends did the research and found out the truth about PA and are embarassed for their pals or actually READ the book and don't want to tell them how bad the actual work is.

sad, either way.

what I"m constantly surprised at is the ignorance of those rushing in to brag about their books - it's like they've never picked up a copy of The Writer or Writer's Digest or even surfed around the Web more than to PA's home page and back out again.

but, as Jim M. said previously, they're hobby writers - they'll be the big cheese in their local town for a few weeks and then wander off, wondering why their royalty checks won't pay for a dinner at McDonald's and planning to mortage their homes for some publicist's dream date.

so it goes...

[vstrauss]

>>I mean, here are all these people bragging about how they're now too famous for their friends to stand it - when what's probably happened is that either their friends did the research and found out the truth about PA and are embarassed for their pals or actually READ the book and don't want to tell them how bad the actual work is.<<

Actually, it's like one of the messages said--most people just don't care.

I'll be honest and confess that I went through the "now I'm published, everyone will be so proud of/impressed by/interested in me" thing when I sold my first book. It took me very little time to realize that it wasn't so. I moped for a little while, and then got over it.

When the book came out, a couple of local papers did "new author" articles on me. Both included pictures, and I was convinced that I was going to be recognized in the grocery store or on the street by my fans. What actually happened was that I got several obscene phone calls. It really put things in perspective. If I ever feel my head swelling, I remind myself of that.

- Victoria

[LaVerneRoss]

hey got a question. Someone over at mindsight ask about the former cover, that is being discussed. He wanted to see it. I suggested that he check blackwells, the uk site. My book has vanished. Does that not seem odd to you? That something is up? Got any ideas? I found my cover changed on PAs site, but nowhere else.

[DeePower]

After our first two books were published (by John Wiley & Sons NOT PublishAmerica) our local paper did a very nice story on us with photos. I write with a co-author, Brian Hill.

For a couple of months afterwards, we were recognized at the grocery store and Target by complete strangers. It was fun and very surprising. Next time I'm handing out bookmarks.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[LaVerneRoss]

That is what I had hoped for, when I made my mistake. Now my hopes lie with a different publisher. I really want to do booksignings, and be reconized for my work. I guess we all do. But I am working hard to make this my year, with my other books. For a time, I lost confidence in my own talent. Feeling maybe I shouldn't write at all. My critics sure told me that. But with two books completed, and one under consideration, and another one just sent to a publisher I am looking forward to what I should have had with this first one.
A lesson learned the hard way, and costly. I am glad that you are doing well with your writing.

[SimonSays]

I have been reading these boards for the last few days and feel compelled to post as well.

I know nothing about PA except what I have read on these boards and am in no way endorsing their business practices or anything else about them.

I have not read every post on this subject, but based on what I have read it appears to me that the real professional writers on this board as well as the writer advocates seem to be overlooking the obvious. You are so focused on the PA contract (compared to those at traditional commercial publishers) and the quality of support they provide their writers, that you fail to recognize the quality of their writers.

The bottom line is that the vast, vast, vast majority of the PA writers would never get a publishing deal at ANY traditional publisher, because to be brutally honest they are just not good enough writers. I am not critiquing the talent of any individual writer and I am certain that a small percentage of the PA writers do in fact have talent, but most do not.

PA and the other vanity publishers are the literary world equivalent of a karaoke bar. They offer people the chance to live out their publishing fantasies. To "see their name in lights" so to speak.

This is as close as most of them will ever come to getting published. No amount of marketing dollars would lead to a wider audience for their work outside of family and friends - because only family and friends are interested in really bad writing. If they get to have a professionally bound novel they can give (or sell) to their family and friends and have the opportunity to do a book signing at their local Borders is that really so horrible? It's not like PA is ripping them off for hundreds (or thousands) of dollars - like some of the agent scammers out there. Is $21.95 or however much the books sell for really such a big price to pay for the chance to live out their fantasies?

It appears from these posts that one of your main complaints is that PA builds up their hopes for publishing success. But aren't you also building up their hopes on some level? You talk about marketing, editing, book signings, royalties on net vs. royalties on list price - like these are issues that apply to these writers. What difference does it make what the royalties are on a book that no one is gonna want to read? I believe you sincerely are trying to be helpful, but you are feeding their delusions of grandeur and at the same time taking away the sense of a fulfillment and accomplishment they should be feeling for being in print by focusing on what REAL publishers do for REAL writers.

Sorry to get all "Simon Cowell" on you, but someone needs to point out that the Emperor is naked.

[James D Macdonald]

Who's "Simon Cowell"?

[Teena Haywood]

SimonSays:
"I know nothing about PA except what I have read on these boards and am in no way endorsing their business practices or anything else about them. "

Exactly. Therefore, you will not have that knowledge until you've walked in a disgruntle PA author's shoes.


SimonSays:
"The bottom line is that the vast, vast, vast majority of the PA writers would never get a publishing deal at ANY traditional publisher, because to be brutally honest they are just not good enough writers. I am not critiquing the talent of any individual writer and I am certain that a small percentage of the PA writers do in fact have talent, but most do not."

Is this just hearsay or have you taken the time to read a book by ANY PA authors? I'm an avid reader and I've encounter "bad" writing by FAMOUS "top notch" authors. So why lay the blame on the vast, vast, vast majority of PA writers? Just because they're associated with PA? Sounds fair to me! Not taking sides, are you?

SimonSays:
"It appears from these posts that one of your main complaints is that PA builds up their hopes for publishing success. But aren't you also building up their hopes on some level?"

I'm sure all writers (including Bill Clinton) build their hopes up in one way or another.

Simon, last but not by a long shot least, most authors write to tell their story to the world; in hopes of getting their book physically placed in major bookstores, not for it to set in cyberspace :bang forever.

Since you seem to be so versed on the publishing world and how one should feel when their dreams have been crushed, I'd like to know if you are publsihed author? If so, where may I find your book :hail ?

[darbyj]

The problem with PA isn't that the vast majority of their books are poorly written, it is that they insist they are a traditional publisher, when they are not.

This insistence seems to have gotten much worse since I came on board in 2002. Like most PA authors, I have had difficulties getting my books in stores, getting reviews, etc. Is it because my book sucks? Possibly. I'm aware of that.

What really makes me ill is that many PA authors are not aware of that, because they believe the stuff PA says. Paraphrasing- you are traditionally published, very few people are good enough to be traditionally published, your book has the same chance of being on a bookstore shelf as one published by Random House, etc.

They think their book is well written because a traditional publisher accepted them. If PA didn't insist they were like all other traditional publishers I wouldn't have a problem with them or the poorly written books. Some argue that they wouldn't have the following they have if they didn't lie. Maybe that's true. But as long as authors think, "they aren't making me pay so they aren't a vanity", and they are paying to buy books they may never be able to sell, it's a scam.

darby

[CWGranny]

Actually, of the PA books I have seen and the excerpts I have read, I believe most of the PA authors probably do have talent. What those I have read lack is skill -- or sufficient skill to turn their ideas and plans into a publishable book. Talent does not create a publishable book, though it does create a book with potential...and PA crushes the potential of the book by publishing it before the author has the skill to take it from "potential" to "submission ready." And PA crushes the potential of many of their own authors by short circuiting the learning curve -- they publish, in effect, the authors' writing exercises and therefore force these folks to move from "learning to write" to "door-to-door salemen." Many never get back properly to the "learning to write" stage.

Now, many of the books probably never would have been traditionally published -- but the authors may have. Most of us end up abandoning our early efforts (whether they show potential or that spark of talent, or not) as we learn. At some point, most of the authors I know are GRATEFUL their first "book" wasn't published -- imagine the embarrassment. We may tell someone, "Oh, yes, my first book was dreadful -- it had potential and it taught me a lot -- but I just couldn't see how dreadful it was." But we rarely trot out the manuscript and show people how much our early efforts sucked in skill.

If outfits like PA didn't short circuit the admittedly long and painful process of learning through the rejection and going back to the drawing board time after time...many of the most determined PA authors would be published. And many would not -- they lack staying power, or the process hurts too much, or they buy into the conspiracy of big publishing that oppresses the talented beginner (there's a concept that is hurting as many writers as PA ever thought of) and they quit. And some of the PA authors really do lack both skill and talent and they would have simply been one of the bizillions of people who wrote one book, got it out of their system, and went to find a new hobby.

At any rate, PA does no one a favor. For those who fit in the third "hobby writer" category, PA gave them a little fun...but at the expense of too many folks who could have gone on to make it in the business if they weren't kicked off the road and into the swamp so early in their journey.

Gran

[vstrauss]

Simon's view--"what difference does it make. since none of these folks could get published anyway?"--is one Writer Beware encounters a lot--often from publishing professionals, many of whom have a Darwinian attitude toward the quest for publication, and figure that we all should be happy that outfits like PA are siphoning off the dross. Our reply: Even if this is so, it doesn't make it right to rip people off.

One of the points I periodically try to make about PA is that it offers a worse deal than many of the large POD-based self-publishing companies. No, it doesn't charge upfront. But it does levy a charge on the back end, through high book prices (higher, at longer lengths, even than the high prices from the self-pub companies) and through constant "incentives" for writers to buy their own books (which they're encouraged to believe is what "all writers" do). It ties writers down with a seven-year contract (the average self-pub contract is just one year) and pays pitiful royalties (8% of net, as opposed to around 20% of net from the self-pubs). Sure, if you only sell 150 copies the financial difference is miniscule--but that doesn't make 8% of net any less chintzy. Most PA writers would be better off at iUniverse or Infinity.

Even if every single PA writer were utterly devoid of talent and ability (and I know this is not the case), it still wouldn't be right to hook them into a crappy deal under false pretenses. Which, essentially, is what PA does.

- Victoria

[DaveKuzminski]

We're not opposed to the authors who were published by PublishAmerica. P&E's criticism of PA has always been based on PA's claims and how PA treats authors.

[James D Macdonald]

Seriously, PublishAmerica, (as I've said before) is the Fantasy Role-playing Game version of publishing.

That's okay as long as you know that what you're doing is playing the fantasy game. But it crosses the line when it tries to pass itself off as reality.

The guy playing Dungeons&Dragons knows that he isn't really a seven-foot-tall barbarian warrior named Kor, the Civil War recreationist knows that he isn't really a corporal in the 36th Iowa Infantry fighting the battle of Mark's Mill -- he's not going to get killed, no real bullets are involved, and Monday morning he's going back to his job as a computer programmer.

The PublishAmerica victims don't know that they aren't traditionally published authors. "Author" is a high prestige (if often low pay) title. Lots of people want it. When the PA authors find out the truth, they get (understandably) ticked off.

(In the same way, a college degree is high prestige -- and that's why my spam-trap is full of offers to sell me a "degree" from a "prestigious non-accredited university.")

Why do we see the anger here, and other places, against PublishAmerica, when we dont' see it against AuthorHouse, iUniverse, Xlibris and the host of other vanity PoDs? Because those places are up-front about what they are and what they're doing, while PA, doing the same thing, lies about its business model. The PA boards are chock-a-block (until the posts are deleted, the threads killed, and the authors banned) with heartbreaking and despairing posts as authors discover they can't get their books into bookstores, that they can't get their books reviewed, and that they aren't being treated as "published authors" by the professionals.

PA is Lucy and the football to the writers' Charlie Brown.

[SimonSays]

No Vicky, you missed my point. I was not saying “what difference does it make. since none of these folks could get published anyway?” If PA is misrepresenting itself and being dishonest with it’s customers that is wrong. I do not condone that.

My issue was more with the support and advice given on this board. As it appears to me that by trying to help, you are actually perpetuating the fantasy. You are telling these people what they should expect from a publisher without having any idea of whether or not Vanity publishing is their only hope. And yes, I realize it is not your place to make that judgment – but perhaps a little less focus on what a traditional publisher does for it’s writer, and a little more focus on how to get out of the contract might not be a bad thing.

And to answer Teena’s question as to how I know that the vast majority of the PA writer’s are not talented enough to get published at a traditional house? The answer is simple. Most PEOPLE do not have the talent to be professional writers. PA appears to accept pretty much all submissions they receive. Hence most of the submissions are not good enough.

We all learn to write in first grade, that does not mean we are all writers. You can learn the craft, but if you do not have the innate ability you will never be a good writer. There are thousands of dancers who have the same dedication, training, drive, and ambition as Baryshnikov, but none have the ability to soar the way he did. Because along with the dedication and drive he had a gift. Just because you are not tone deaf and can carry a tune – does not mean you have what it takes to be a pop star. The same goes for writing. While dedication, drive, ambition and belief in yourself are obviously necessary to succeed as a writer – those things are not a replacement for talent.

Good writers have a gift. And that gift is rare. I used to do script consulting and also screened submissions for a major script contest. I have read more bad screenplays than any human being should be subjected to in a lifetime. All of those writers thought they were talented, thought their scripts were good. Most were not. My agent only accepts about 1% of the writers who submit. In a few cases he rejects them because they are too green or because he does not feel they are a good fit. But in most cases he rejects them because, to put it kindly – they suck.

That is the cold hard truth. Do a lot of talented writers fall through the cracks and not get the opportunities they should. Of course! Do some not very talented writers find success. Absolutely.

Encouraging people to write for the sake of self-expression and personal fulfillment is a good thing, but filling their heads with contract points and royalty information when you have absolutely no idea whether they are the next Hemingway or should stick to writing grocery lists? I can’t help wondering if you are doing more harm than good.

As for Simon Cowell, James – he’s one of the judges on American Idol.

[James D Macdonald]

As for Simon Cowell, James – he’s one of the judges on American Idol.

That's a TV program, isn't it?

<hr>

SimonSays, you seem to be missing the entire point.

[LaVerneRoss]

You still do not get the point of what we are saying. We do not say all the PA writers are the next Hemingway. But they deserve the right to know about real publishers, and what is available outside PA. We learn from others, who have been there and share out knowledge. A lot of fledgling writers, and some really good ones have gotten caught in the PA spiderweb. Food for the spider. Most would not be with PA. At least with most POD publishers they are honest with what you can expect with them. We have no problem with those who just want a book published and are happy. As long as they know what they are getting. We don't have a problem with our fellow PA authors. Except perhaps those who push the lies to the innocent. All of us writers worked hard on our books and with PA would have been better off throwing them in the trash can.
As writers we learn and improve those of us who are serious writers. First novels aren't always ones we want to look back on with pride after we have grown as writers. But it still our books our "babies", they too deserve better than PA. Not to say the books are bad either. Not all PA books are horrid, despite what critics say. Writers with dreams that got crushed and we don't just want to push it under the carpet.

[DaveKuzminski]

If someone swindles a thousand dollars from an literate person, it's a crime. If someone swindles only a dollar from a less literate person, it's still a crime.

In this case, they're stealing dreams that might have been worth something placed in the hands of a competent publisher. It doesn't matter that PA is getting the money from the author's co-workers, friends, and relatives for the most part. What matters is that their authors don't stand much of a chance of actually seeing their books on shelves in book stores from coast to coast when that is the implied promise in one of PA's claims.

[James D Macdonald]

Just being a bad writer doesn't make you fair game for thieves either.

[SimonSays]

Once again you are missing MY point.

"Serious writer" does not necessarily equal "good writer".

I know someone who just quit a six figure PR job, to move cross country to pursue her dream of screenwriting. She is a PR whiz. She is also an awful screenwriter. Will she improve by studying the craft?maybe. Will she ever be a good screenwriter - I highly doubt it. Her problem is not just with structure, dialogue, character development and plotting - although those are all problematic areas. Her main problem is that she is not an innate storyteller - she is not creative.

You are giving one size fits all information and advice to an audience that runs the gamut from a size 0 to a size 28. Yes, there are a few people who have potential and should be directed toward legit agents and publishers - but most should be directed toward better vanity publishers. And my point is that you don't know which is which but you are always focusing on the path that should be taken by a small minority of the posters.

I repeat what I said above "serious writer" does not equal "good writer"

The tone of so many of these posts looks down on vanity publishers - and those posts are coming from people who are talented (and lucky enough) to have traditional commercial publishers. MOST of the writers seeking help and advice from these boards are not in that league. And it seems that - that is rarely taken into consideration when the "Haves" offer counsel to the "Have Nots".

I'll give you one example. There's a post on one of these PA threads from a high school student who had been thinking of going with PA, but had second thoughts after reading the boards and asked for advice. Her post was one of the most horrendously written things I have ever seen. Bad spelling - and no they were not typos - there were way too many of them for that to be the case. Horrible grammar, barely able to communicate a thought or form a coheseive sentence. Every response to her post was "stay away from PA" "Have you thought about a traditional publisher?" Not one person pointed out that maybe she needed to finish high school and pay more attention in her English class before trying to get the book published. She could not construct a sentence and yet she was being given information on how to get published!

Community support is a good thing, but there should at least be a modicum of reality here. Don'tcha think?

[LaVerneRoss]

I believe all PA authors, except the very tiny few who are like a certain writer I wont mention. Would be better off with anyother publisher than PA. I think most of the books could do well with a real publisher, and maybe a little help. But will never get it now, and being laughed at doesn't incourage a writer to keep writing. When bookstores, and critics and other publishers hear who your publisher is and don't even want to talk to you. It's not fair to any of us. It looks like PA will continue for years to destroy dreams, and talent.
That Simon that was mentioned, he has the attitude to work for PA, he is mean and hates everyone and is the most insulting person on television.
People who know nothing about PA just don't understand what any of us writers are going through. It's much like any of us with no medical training trying to understand brain surgery. Maybe that is why the places we have been writing to, don't seem too interested in helping us.
Other people expect to get paid right for their services, their work, and PA wants us to do it for slave labor and bow for the honor of being published by them.

[vstrauss]

>>Yes, there are a few people who have potential and should be directed toward legit agents and publishers - but most should be directed toward better vanity publishers. And my point is that you don't know which is which but you are always focusing on the path that should be taken by a small minority of the posters.<<

So if we don't know which is which, how can we possibly give tailored advice, steering one person to one place and another person to another? Not to mention, it's not up to us to make that sort of judgment.

We are focusing on the path that WILL be taken by a small minority of the posters. A small but crucial difference. Since, as you point out, we don't know who is in that minority, we provide the same advice to all. The writers are free to make the attempt (or not, as they choose), and be sorted out by the realities of the process.

>>Do a lot of talented writers fall through the cracks and not get the opportunities they should. Of course!<<

What was that about perpetuating a fantasy?

- Not Vicky

[James D Macdonald]

You just keep on being Tough Minded and Realistic, SimonSays.

I'll keep on helping writers.

[SimonSays]

Maybe you are right Laverne that most of the writers would be better off with a different publisher. PA sounds pretty damn crappy and like it misleads its authors. But for most PA writers in the end, it is not a choice between PA and Random House. For most it is a choice between PA and iuniverse or some other vanity press.

Most of the PA books would never get published by a traditional, legitimate commercial publisher like the kind talked about on these boards. It might sound mean, but it is true. Writing a book and writing a good, commercially viable book are two very different things. Traditional publishers publish books that they think will make money. Books that are well written and have a broad appeal. They use editors to work with the writers to make a GOOD manuscript better – to tighten it up, open it up – whatever it needs to reach it’s potential. Traditional publishers are not going to take a book if the writer does not have that potential (unless of course the author is a celebrity who’s name alone will sell tens if not hundreds of thousands of copies). And as I said most of the PA writers sadly do not have that potential. Most writers in general do not have that potential.

Vicki asks:

So if we don't know which is which, how can we possibly give tailored advice, steering one person to one place and another person to another?

SimonSays:

Obviously you can’t, but since you don’t know which is which, and since you do know that there are more bad or mediocre writers than really talented ones, then maybe the answer is to keep in mind that the post you are replying to is probably written by one of the bad/mediocre ones and reply accordingly (i.e. a little less focus on standard royalty percentages a little more props for the vanity presses). Rule #37 for writers “KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE”.

Vicki also asks:

What was that about perpetuating a fantasy?

SimonSays:

That was not my intention. I just didn’t want any of you to think that I thought that only bad writers were unsuccessful.

As for Simon Cowell, he may be mean – but at least he’s honest. Most of the contestants on that show do not have what it takes to have successful singing careers.

And though it may be painful for them to hear the truth, to quote Nick Lowe, sometimes “you gotta be cruel to be kind.”

[James D Macdonald]

Shorter Victoria and Everyone Else: "If you want to be a writer, here's how...."

Shorter SimonSays: "Find a different hobby, kid."

<hr>

Who among us, seeing someone about to make a disasterous choice, wouldn't say, "Wait up! That isn't the way things work!"

If I warn a friend off marrying a brutal drunk with a string of failed marriages and restraining orders behind him, I'm not promising her a fairy-tale romance with Prince Charming. I'm trying to keep her from getting her lights punched out and her bank account drained by a brutal drunk.

I feel that's my moral duty.

[Teena Haywood]

"You are giving one size fits all information and advice to an audience that runs the gamut from a size 0 to a size 28."

SimonSays, that's exactly what you did when you chose to spout the paragraph listed below:
"The bottom line is that the vast, vast, vast majority of the PA writers would never get a publishing deal at ANY traditional publisher, because to be brutally honest they are just not good enough writers. I am not critiquing the talent of any individual writer and I am certain that a small percentage of the PA writers do in fact have talent, but most do not."

Sir, your statements are very discriminatory, without sound evidence and lacking in substance. I would suggest that you have all of your ducks in row before placing all PA authors in the same "non-writing, talentless" category. The fact remains that you sir, would have to purchase and read all 6,000-8,000 PA Authors' books to make that type of statement/decision.

Today, many, many "famous" authors cannot write and were not published by Publish America, yet they get on New York's best selling list. Why? It's a matter of preferance. The reading public rushes to purchase their books because they are either "stars", "public figures" or have written block buster novels before. In essence, what I'm attempting to relay to you is don't put all writers in the same negative category just because they were published by PA.

As a rule, before all of this controversary started about PA, I doubt very seriously if the reading public chose to look at the publisher of a book that they were in the process of purchasing...I know I didn't and don't to this day.

When I enter a bookstore I search for titles, perhaps familiar authors then new authors if the title and synopsis catch my eye. So, if PA just happens to be the publisher of a book has nothing to do with the whether the book is good or bad.

[SimonSays]

James Says:

If I warn a friend off marrying a brutal drunk with a string of failed marriages and restraining orders behind him, I'm not promising her a fairy-tale romance with Prince Charming. I'm trying to keep her from getting her lights punched out and her bank account drained by a brutal drunk

Simon Says:

Warning a friend off marrying a drunk (or a writer off signing with PA) is the right thing to do. I have no problem with that.

But while you may not be “promising her a fairy-tale romance” with Prince Charming, you are in fact holding up Prince Charming as a viable alternative. You are not just trying to keep them from making a mistake by signing with PA – you spend an awful lot of time comparing PA to real traditional publishing houses (for our purposes, Prince Charming) while it might serve them better if you mentioned Maury the butcher (other vanity press options).

James I truly believe you are trying to help writers, but I also believe that you do not always take into consideration the potential of those you are seeking to help.

I noticed that you have a link to your editing services on your posts. And no, I am not attacking you for doing so, or for charging what you charge – in fact I think it’s a reasonable fee. But I do wonder what you do when you come across a truly awful ms or a writer who is totally hopeless. Do you rewrite the whole damn thing and then let them believe it’s their own work? Return the money and give them some excuse? Try to steer them toward more realistic goals? Encourage them, even if you know they will never succeed? And if you did encourage them even though you know they will never succeed AND did take the money – where exactly does that put you morally? Where is the balance between being supportive, helpful, keeping the dream alive and taking advantage of someone? It’s a tough call, isn’t it? Even if you take the money out of the equation, it’s a tough call on a moral level, supporting someone’s dreams when you know that doing so in the end, will just set them up for a huge fall.

I think this is sounding far more aggressive than I intend it to. I really do believe you are operating with the best of intentions, James.

[James D Macdonald]

...Maury the butcher (other vanity press options).

I try to warn people off other vanity press options too.

Just like there are worse things in the world than being unmarried , there are worse things in the world than being unpublished.

<hr>

The vanity presses are bad choices for most writers. "Maury the Butcher" is more like the small press. Not much advance money, distribution and publicity far less, but still respectable. You can be happy there.

For works that won't fit with the small press, then self-publishing (this is mostly specialized non-fiction, poetry, and limited niche markets).

Vanity press? No, I wouldn't recommend that.

<hr>

As for what I'll do with a truly wretched manuscript? I'll edit it to the best of my ability. I don't re-write. I make suggestions. Whether they follow those suggestions or not is wholly up to the authors.

I specifically say that I don't promise publication, or even that you'll like what I have to say.

I look on it as a learning opportunity. You've hired me to tell you what I think is wrong with your writing. I'll tell you, straight out, honestly, and as helpfully as I can.

As to why I'm charging money -- it's because I can't afford to donate more of my time to this than I already do.

[DaveKuzminski]

This site is mostly for the benefit of writers who need to be informed about what's taking place within the publishing industry. We can't decide the fate of every writer, but we can tell there where there are obvious problems. Why don't we do that for the publishers? Because they're already in control of whose books are accepted.

Why are we repeating the discussion? Because there are always new writers seeking information and many are not knowledgeable enough to find what was posted before. If not for that, then because those warnings are now buried quite deep to where a reasonable person has to wonder if spending the time on researching one topic rather than another will be profitable in terms of spending valuable time. It's like digging in a field for a coin that might not be there. You have to make a judgment call when you don't have the tools to know for certain if what you seek is there.

We then leave the decision making to the writer. They choose what publishing options appeals most to them and move on from there. We don't heckle those who choose PA anyway. We wish them luck and hope they aren't hurt.

By the way, SimonSays, your response to Victoria was rude. She gave a big hint that she didn't care to be addressed in an abbreviated manner.

[DeePower]

The problem I have with PublishAmerica and why we are terminating our contract, is that PA positions itself as a traditional publishing house and it is not.

I am a published author, two nonfiction books with John Wiley & Sons, and working on a third for Dearborn Trade, which just happens to be on the book publishing industry, "The Making of a Bestseller."

When PA approached us about publishing our novel "Overtime" we did some basic research, BUT when they said they were a traditional publishing house, that their books were available in bricks and mortar stores, they provided editing, and marketing, would send press releases and review copies, we believed them.

Our previous experience with a publisher led us to have no reason to doubt PA. We knew what a traditional publisher was supposed to do.

PublishAmerica doesn't do what a traditional publishing house does.

We even had the possibility of having a review of Overtime in BookList, (a university librarian loved it and gave it a great pre-pub review which I sent to Bill Ott and he requested our publisher to send him two galley copies) until they found out PublishAmerica was the publisher.

When approaching Borders for a book signing during football season (there is a football story in Overtime) they were excited until they found out Overtime was not available to be ordered through their system. That is a direct conflict to PA's claim.

PA claims that their books are discounted to amazon.com I have that in writing from them. Only six books out of the over 3100 books are discounted at amazon.com.

Well, before I go on and on, my point in trying to warn other people about PA is that PublishAmerica is not a traditional publishing house, as they say they are.

Is that fraud? I don't know. But our law firm does, and they're working on it.

Oh, this is kind of funny. The attorney that we work with at our law firm was attending BEA last week, and a writer came up to her and said, "Oh I've heard about you, you're a great entertainment law firm. Look I have a contract with this #@#*! publishing firm that I have to get out of, it's located in Maryland." Our attorney asked who the publishing company was. You guessed it. PublishAmerica.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)










Neither of our contracts for nonfiction says specifically that our books will be available at Barnes and Nobles, but it is an underlying assumption that they will be.

[James D Macdonald]

When PA approached us about publishing our novel "Overtime" ....

Hold up, there, Dee! They approached [/i]you[/i]?

How did that work?

[DaveKuzminski]

I would too. Sounds like your attorneys should have plenty of evidence for fraud if that is indeed the case that they approached you. This looks too much like they were trying to gain legitimacy by getting your book published by them so they could claim authors from real publishing houses were changing over to them since that is indeed one of the claims they have made recently.

[SimonSays]

Obviously I struck a nerve Teena, or else you are extremely defensive, by nature.

My statements are not discriminatory. Generalizations, maybe, Descriminatory, no. I specifically said that most writers in general are not good enough writers to get published for real. True I did not conduct a scientific test, nor did I read all 8,000 PA titles. I used something called statistics along with reason and logic to make those statements, and if you like I will share that methodology with you.

As mentioned in a previous post my agent accepts 1% of the submissions received. The large majority are rejected because they suck. Checking on other agencies, I have consistently come across a 1-2% acceptance rate. Most common reason for rejection per my informal poll? Once again because they suck.

From what I have gathered from these boards, PA pretty much accepts anything that comes across it’s path (except maybe porn and how to kill manuals –for legal liability reasons, I assume). PA has about 8,000 authors. I am making an assumption here that few if any of these authors have agents – because no agent in the world would let their client sign such a crappy contract. If all 8,000 previously attempted to get agents and all failed, then it would not be a stretch to assume that all 8,000 suck. However, my guess is that not all 8,000 have tried to get agents. But let’s say all 8,000 did decide to try to get an agent – based on the unscientific research above, I would guess that 1-2% - to be generous I’ll pick 2% - would be accepted. This means 7,840 would be rejected – and most of those would be rejected. Why? Say it with me now: “Because they suck!”

All kidding aside, statistically speaking, about 160 of PA’s authors would get an agent. And there’s no guarantee that all of those would get published (then again one or two without an agent might get published). So that was where the term ‘vast vast vast majority’ came from, because in my humble opinion 7,840 is the vast, vast, vast, majority of 8,000.

The main reason that Vanity Publishers are not respected by booksellers is because there is no filter process to weed out the bad and the commercially unviable. When an agent evaluates a manuscript, one of the things he is looking to see is if the ms has the potential to make money, because if it doesn’t make money, he doesn’t make money. When he sends that MS to a publisher – the publisher already knows that the agent thinks the book will make money. When the publisher distributes it to Barnes & Noble, B&N knows that both the agent and publisher believe the book will make money, which means B&N will make money. Not so with a vanity press book. You thinking it will make money or your Aunt Irma thinking it will make money doesn’t count. Also vanity presses do not have marketing or advertising dollars available to promote their titles or funds for co-op advertising to promote the booksellers.

Also the bookstores have a limited amount of shelf space – so they are far more interested in making that space available to the books that a) have been deemed (by someone other than you and your Aunt Irma) to have money making potential b) will be promoted. c) are distributed by companies that have made money for them in the past.

The stigma that you believe is unjustly attached to vanity presses, is not necessarily unjust. Without any quality control measures in place for their products or marketing dollars for promotion, these books would just gather dust on the shelves. Commercially speaking, they are not a good bet.

That said, Vanity presses do have their place. For those writers who dream of being in print, but are not good enough writers to be published it is a reasonable alternative. An alternative, that I think does not get it’s due on this board. It is nice to want to believe that everyone who posts here is talented enough to get published by a traditional publisher. But no matter how much you may want to believe it – it is not the reality.


DaveKuzminski (have no desire to be accused of being rude again) actually I was not being rude the first time, I did not get the ‘big hint’, I thought “Not Vicky” not "NOT" Vicky WAS her sign off, which is why I called her Vicky.

I have checked out your site as well as Victoria’s and I think they are great resources. I think it’s wonderful that people post warnings on these boards regarding scam agents, bad publishers, etc. I think it’s great that people can get support, advice and inspiration for their writing. But these boards are not just informational resources they are ongoing dialogues and it appears that there is no balance in the dialogues on pubilshing. There is an awful lot of griping and encouragement, without any reality checks.

James - you seem to be totally avoiding the main issue that I was addressing to you, I don't know if it's because you don't understand what I was asking, or if it's because you are uncomfortable acknowledging that there are people on this site who want to be writers who do not have the ability to succeed - but I am not the type to beat a dead horse so I'll let it go.

[DeePower]

Yes, PA contacted us. I can't go into the details of how and why. We were looking for an agent for both our nonfiction and fiction work. I found John Wiley & Sons myself, contacted them and negotiated the contract, well I use the term negotiated very loosely.

We do have an agent now. It was too late for Overtime, we'd already signed the contract with PA.

We hired our law firm last September, we decided that if we were going to be authors (and screenwriters) then we should be represented. I never thought we would be using them to terminate our PublishAmerica contract but- so be it.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[DaveKuzminski]

I must admit I agree with most of what you stated statistically in your 6th post. There are a few small details that do not greatly affect what you stated. I know that a few of the PA authors were represented by "agents". However, it's my understanding that those agents were basically fee chargers themselves, so that shouldn't impact on your overall generalizations.

Unfortunately, many writers seeking to publish their first book do so because they believe, based upon faulty information perpetrated by movies and TV programs to name two sources, that all writers become rich and some become famous. They're up against the wall in trying to make ends meet at home. They're already using all their employment skills and still not making it, so the ability to write a book is one of the few remaining things they can try in order to bust out of their current environment. Of course, they've always heard that advancement is up to them, so it comes as no surprise that they have to apply effort in order to succeed at publishing. However, they're being misled by the publisher they've chosen. It's not up to them once the book is written. It's up to the publisher. What's more, the publisher knows that most of them simply do not have the funds to fight back. The few who do soon learn that they won't gain back enough to make up for the cost of fighting, so they don't fight, either. When faced with the fact that they can shut up or see their books tied up for the full contract term, most see the writing on the wall and accept a quiet resolution or simply bide their time in hopes of still having enough time to change events to their favor with a new publisher later. Some are content to bask in the small glory it gives them among their friends because they did something that most people haven't done. They wrote and finished a book and then got it published.

One other thing I've noticed is that those of us who are on the same side do tend to forget that we are and lose sight that each of us still views the overall situation based upon our own viewpoints which are bound to differ. I'm certain the others will agree that I can be very obstinate, aggressive, and irritating at times. Anyway, lest we forget, I will say welcome to the board.

[Bigkjr]

Hello!
As you can see, I’m new here. I have a friend who’s with PA and is getting unhappy with them. She pointed out that PRWEB is highly advocated by the authors at PA, especially in this thread entitled My Newest Press Release:
www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/4394.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/4394.htm)
This guy has gone all out in buying publicity for his book as he’ll summarize for all the good readers.
What strikes me is this part:

<<This morning after 22 hrs my stats are: 47952 views, 461 pick ups, 23 friendly print button, and 18 forwards.
I also have a number emails in my box I havent been able to check yet as well as my phone machine is blinking with 5 calls. I am just home from working 11 hours so the above can wait until I awake...since my release says phone calls after 2p.m. to 9p.m.>>

My friend says that if she had that kind of response, she wouldn’t be on the PA message boards bragging about things that might be. Maybe those 5 calls are wrong numbers/hang ups. Those emails could be offers -- or junk?

So is PA somehow affiliated with PRWeb, even though they’re located on opposite sides of the country? Any opinions?

Thanks!

KJR

[SimonSays]

Thanks Dave for acknowledging that there is some merit in my viewpoint. And what you said about misconceptions perpetrated by tv, movies, the media, etc. is very true.

The joy of writing, should be in the writing and the rewriting and the rewriting and the rewriting and the rewriting and then of course, in the rewriting. This is true even for professional writers, successful writers, rich and famous writers. For people who support themselves writing there are other considerations and other subsequent joys. But very few will ever know those subsequent joys, and will in fact suffer a barrage of frustrations that will diminish the joy they should feel for having completed a novel - whether it's marketable or not.

Maybe James is right, but then again maybe it is better for some to see their name on the cover of a vanity published book, then never to see their name on the cover of a book at all.

[DaveKuzminski]

I think some of the PR outfits are taking advantage of the chum in the water provided by the vanity publishing outfits. Just more sharks to deal with, though I'm sure some can actually deliver. However, I don't know which ones are credible in that regard. P&E hasn't received much in the way of complaints about any of the PR firms. Two complaints about one and one complaint about another.

Gosh, Captain America ads come up when I post. ;)

[DeePower]

PRWeb is a press release distribution service that is reasonably priced. You can have your release distributed free but with no tracking. If you want tracking and some other bells and whistles then you decide how much you want to pay.

I've used it several times with good results.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[Betty W01]

Gosh, Captain America ads come up when I post.

Don't let it go to your head. And remember, this means "they" know who you are... :rofl

[wondering to self: what logarithm do they use to decide what ad to put where?]

[DaveKuzminski]

Gee, are you sure they wouldn't be using an Al-Gore-ithm?

[Deejay816]

Yes, Dave, but so do bobbleheads :rollin

Deej

[DaveKuzminski]

Knew I shouldn't have mentioned a politician's name. ;)

[Deejay816]

:heart

[Ed Williams 3]

Here's the deal, there is ONE author currently being distributed by the new publishing company, who stripped us of our ranks to build theirs. CAN YOU SAY WHOOPS!?!

The only author even being offered on Scamathon.con is a friend of mine I never had a doubt of being noticed. He can do anything on his own. It's like a bike ride to him,

Anyway, my condolences to the pooor fools who quit what they had with PA to enter obscurity central. That means you have to go door to door to tell people you even have an ISBN number.

Oh how sad. Wasn't it me who said a new company can't skip steps and do what PA does? Wasn't it me who said that people were tossing their current status for a get-rich-quick-scheme? Or maybe it was me who said that you bought Microsoft stock from Gate's parent's garage sale and traded it in for a handful of beans.

Any stalks yet? No? I suspected as much.

Anyway, HB is back on the job fans. I know who is saying what. I don't like fakes. When I see them, I get a little upset. Don't play the side of the fence that's convenient at the moment. I will call you on it.

The main deal is, those who abandoned PA got nothing to show for it unless they hang on the coat-tails of a marketing genius as a last resort. That guy goes without anyone's help. He put up a roadblock for himself and jumped it anyway.

[FM St George]

wow... he really is pretty pathetic, isn't he?

I'd say he's in need of psychiatric help in the way he obsesses over those who have any problems with PA and his verbal threats/attacks on anyone who dares to say anything out of the party line.

of course, he's now working on his fourth book for PA, so he's truly a company man. Sad thing is, he may actually have writing talent, but is squandering it in books that won't sell for a company that doesn't care how much he supports them in the end...

sad, sad man...

[Ed Williams 3]

...what sort of writing ability HB has, I've never read one of his books. If I go by his posts, I would say that basic diction and verb tense usages are a problem. Regardless, if he were the best writer in the United States, he will never see true commercial publication. Think of the number of threats, rants, tirades, and that one episode where he actually challenged another PA author to fight him over some perceived slight. No reputable publisher in the world would touch him after reading that. In the end, my take is that Marcus is a guy who couldn't get commercially published, then worked some kind of deal with PA where they would publish him in exchange for him being an enforcer of sorts. What is so blatantly obvious about all this is that HB should look inward and ask himself what sort of publisher needs an enforcer in the first place? Do you see Random House with "literary bouncers" listed on the payroll? In the end, HB is a front man for a vanity POD outfit that exists off bastardizing the dreams of new writers. And isn't that something to be proud of?

By the way - does anyone know what Marcus does for a living, if he has no obvious job that should tell you all you need to know.

[FM St George]

actually, I don't think he gets paid by PA at all - he's just made himself into an "important person" on his own; rather like those Wendy's ads with the fellow running around as an "unofficial representative"...

*laughs*

he's a perfect example of James' "hobby writer" - one who wants to play at being a success but only part-time and on his terms - I've never heard about him daring to submit to "real" publishers aside from that discussion about wanting to break into comedy writing and work for "Family Guy" on Fox...

guess he found that they don't listen to screaming tirades there either.

:P

and yes, I agree - if he were talented and I ran a publishing house interested in his work I'd put a clause in the contract demanding psychiatric treatment for his emotional outbursts and misplaced aggression - if his posts are any indication, he really needs some anger management courses. Heck, he's almost an embarassment to PA the way he rants off on anyone who's veering from the company line.

and the funny thing is the publisher he's ranting against at present, Behler Publications, is doing just fine from what I've seen - they're active and at least attended the Book Expo; something PA failed to do... again!

*chuckles*

as usual, jmo - ymmv...

[Ed Williams 3]

...is dead, dying, or on the ropes. It's Behler Publications, and its owner is Lynn Price, a former PA author who wised up, and actually started her own publishing company. She's doing well, which must grate on HB no end (I don't think Behler is recruiting him or his work), enough to make him spew lies about them. Check this out from Ms. Price...

"LOLOL, Ed. I adore you for sending this. We’ve been out of town all weekend and I nearly fell off my chair laughing when I received yours and another email from a fellow author about our apparent demise. I’m thrilled that someone was kind enough to alert us. I have to admit to a tad bit of confusion as we have signed over 30 authors, actually have two releases (not one), the third release is getting printed up right now, and are getting ready to release about five more.

As for his diatribe (I didn’t bother reading the boards), last I heard, didn’t it take about 4-6 months to publish a book? We’ve been open since Janurary, so if HB simply did the math, he’d see we’re actually doing pretty well. Oh, one difference, though. Our editors actually do their job, and that’s why we can’t slap ‘em out there.

This is a typical PA ploy. Feel free to post the info I’ve given you, Ed. You’re one of the good guys. I’m just bummed he didn’t mention our name. Last time he did that we were swamped with submissions. On second thought, maybe he shouldn’t. We’re already swamped."

---And the PAvidians follow this guy????

[LaVerneRoss]

HB does really well at fiction that is speaking it. I wonder what PA would do without him as he seems the only one willing to go that mile to attack us and worship PA. I think it is wonderful that Lynn has opened her own publishing company. Need more honest Publishers and PA feels the threat. Now I guess their idea is to now attack and drive away writers. I don't think they will succeed and I wish Lynn luck. I wish the opposite to PA.

[FM St George]

good to hear all's well there - I suspected that they were the targets, but had no idea how to verify it and didn't want to start off emails a-flying with no info.

he's a wonderful puppet, HB is...

[FM St George]

the thread's been pulled, for what it's worth.

I think even PA gets embarassed at times when HB goes off his rocker and starts yelling. His "humor" seems to be his defense for everything, and it seems to be running thinner and thinner with the other PAvidians who have more than two grey cells to rub together.

[darbyj]

Message: After posting a message this morning (using a new password and my real (not pen) name as my user name), I have suddenly lost my posting privileges again. It was in response to someone stating that PA is not a vanity press because you don't pay them (the original post actually looked a lot like one of those "priceless" credit card company commercials). Funny thing is, I didn't say one bad thing about PA...did I?

Random House and other traditional publishers earn money by producing, marketing, and selling quality books without charging the author. Their books are not only placed in on-line stores, but also marketed to brick and mortar bookstores (the author doesn't have to place them, although it would certainly benefit the author to be available for signings, publicity events, etc. that the traditional publisher arranges). They are also sent to professional reviewers well before the release of the book without having to be specifically asked to send one.

Traditional publishers don't expect their authors to buy and sell their own books, in fact, they discourage the practice. And they make money. Huh.

Lisa Young

[emeraldcite]

i watched the final episode of Superstar USA, the show where they look for America's worst singers and tell them that they are great.

PA works the same way. They take away quality control. Not everyone who wants to be a singer will make it big. But that's not to say that if you work really hard that you'll never make it. If you lack talent, you have to make up with hard work and perseverance.

So in the end, the writers at PA will see that they signed with a publisher that is traditional only by a small margin (the fact that they officially offer an advance, as meager as it is). But unlike Superstar USA, PA doesn't throw down the bucks to make up for the prank they played.

What gets me is the horror on that girl's face in Superstar when she really heard herself sing. It was sad and she didn't deserve that considering the pride and confidence she has in herself.

[HapiSofi]

You know what's sad about HB? He was not untalented. So much effort that should have been spent working on his writing has instead gone into defending PA, because they said the thing he was desperate to hear: that he was already good enough to be published.

It never occurred to him, though it should have, that you can be printed without being published, and that you can be published without being good.

[DeePower]

I am just jazzed I was able to arrange interviews with the editors at the New York Times Book Review and the book editor of the Los Angeles Times for our book, "The Making of a Bestseller" !

So, if you had the chance, what would you ask them?

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com (http://www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com)

[James D Macdonald]

Did you see this thread at the PA board?

<a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/4502.htm" target="_new">www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/4502.htm</a>
============

I add:

Number of copies sold that you don't sell yourself:

Zero.

Number of bookstores you'll be in if you don't beg the manager in person:

Zero.

Number of reviews you'll garner that you don't solicit yourself:

Zero.

Number of reviews in major venues even if you do solicit them yourself:

Zero.

Y'see, the thing is: PA doesn't need to require authors to buy their own books (like some vanity presses do). PA knows that authors love their books and will buy them without being told, an average of 75 copies each to resell to friends and family. PA overprices its books an average of $5 a copy.

Vanity press fee if you buy 20 to resell:

$100.

Vanity press fee if you buy 40 to resell:

$200.

Vanity press fee if you buy 200 to resell:

$1,000

Not counting the cost in dollars and time of your self-promotion.

Don't kid yourself, Bucko. PA is a vanity press. It's just that they've hidden the fee in the cover price.

[FM St George]

you forgot the $30 each PA author has to pay for registering their copyright...

so, in fact - you start off in the hole $29!

[darbyj]

Yeah, James M, and the reason the original post disappeared was because PA was unhappy with my reply, even though I never mentioned PA. I was banned again with my new and improved password immediately. I copied and pasted my reply above, but no one cared.

Woe is me, cruel world.

[sfsassenach]

I'd like to know why they mostly avoid genre fiction.

[FM St George]

this should have a short life on the PA boards:

shadowfax



6/17/2004
18:06:47
Subject: reveiwer/PA relationships?


Message:
How have you found PA is in handling book reviewers? I have 3 interested bookreviewers (one from midwest book review, 2 from magazines) who are interested in receiving a reveiw copy.

I had emailed all of the information and correspondense with these bookreviewers to PA. There was some sort of confusion as to whether they had received the information. It took 3 more emails to confirm they had them all and to find out if they would keep me informed as to who they decided to send copies out to. It was important to us to handle the reviewers smoothly and professionally, so if PA wasn't handling them - we could.

Today, finally after nearly a month of communications, PA answered my question. They say they WILL NOT KEEP AUTHORS INFORMED about this process at all. So we could be making promises that PA won't be keeping and not even know it.

Not very professional...

What about the rest of you?

While I am complaining... have any of you found their emails fully answer your questions? I have found this problem in many email communications with other places as well. My friends feel it is common - due to people's very short attention span.

For instance: Say you ask two or three questions, and the respondent only answers one of them or partially answers, so you have to write again... that kind of thing.

...just curious...

Lillian

Trash Talk - an inspirational guide to saving time and money through better waste and resource management ISBN#141372518X Available August!

chickey

6/17/2004
18:48:45


RE: reveiwer/PA relationships?


Message:
I find it easier to cough up the cost and send a book, or manuscript out myself.

Cynthia Hickey
Pursued By Evil
publishedauthors.net/cynthiahickey

kas

6/17/2004
18:53:45


RE: reveiwer/PA relationships?


Message:
I contact my own reviewers and do it myself.

Carl Baxter

6/17/2004
18:55:24
RE: reveiwer/PA relationships?


Message:
You're going to have to buy your books from PA and do your own footwork where marketing is concerned. It should be obvious that they don't have the support staff to handle over 7,000 authors.

BAX

jimarh

6/17/2004
19:29:58


RE: reveiwer/PA relationships?


Message:
I always send a copy to the reviewer myself. I like knowing that it is done and done within a certain time frame. Margaret


Hidden Legacy
Dearest of Friends
The Friendship Circle

www.margarethodapp.com (http://www.margarethodapp.com)

tismeself

6/17/2004
19:49:36


RE: reveiwer/PA relationships?


Message:
An Irish radio announcer here in Calif. mentioned over the radio that he has not recieved a copy of "The Flats" (my book) yet. I assumed that PA would send him a complimentary copy as he has thousands of listeners to his "Irish Hour Show."
Anyway I, like some of you, will take care of it myself.
Leo Byrne
"The Flats" isbn 1413721591

allen

6/18/2004
08:09:15

Nudists Among Us
www.authorsden.com/allenparker

RE: reveiwer/PA relationships?


Message:
Please remember that PA handles several thousand authors at one time. We are not the only people they are working for.

Review copies are a matter of publicity. It is important that the cost of a review copy be returned plus a reasonable profit. If this does not occur, they can not continue to send out free copies.

I try to keep my requests for review copies to booksellers that will order at least 10 copies, or to places that will support sales over a long period.

Radio stations, newspaper reviews, and and etc i usually handle myself.

Keeping these parameters in mind, I have not been turned down for a review copy.

Allen
***********

I'm shocked....

NOT.

[RealityChuck]

Yeah. Review copies are the Achilles heel of any POD author.

Even if you're not buying copies for all your friends, most POD publishers (PA very clearly included) don't send them out. (Neither do most vanity presses, for that matter). Authors don't realize that they need to pony up for review copies if they want their book reviewed.

And often, the publisher's name keeps them from being reviewed in any case.

[James D Macdonald]

I was banned again with my new and improved password immediately.

Don't be silly, DarbyJ. PA doen't ban authors. They've said so themselves....

[FM St George]

infocenter
Administrator
6/18/2004
15:29:57

RE: reveiwer/PA relationships?


Message:
>>I had emailed all of the information and correspondense
>>with these bookreviewers to PA. There was some sort of
>>confusion as to whether they had received the
>>information. It took 3 more emails to confirm they had
>>them all and to find out if they would keep me informed
>>as to who they decided to send copies out to.

Actually, there was no confusion at all. We have no record of any such emails. Perhaps they were not received, or perhaps they were not sent.

>>Today, finally after nearly a month of communications,
>>PA answered my question. They say they WILL NOT KEEP
>>AUTHORS INFORMED about this process at all. So we
>>could be making promises that PA won't be keeping
>>and not even know it.
>>Not very professional...

From what we can tell, you were not told this at all. You were sent the following statement of our review copy policy, which is entirely professional:

PublishAmerica provides complimentary review copies to legitimate media reviewers who submit their request in writing. Please have any potential reviewer e-mail support@publishamerica.com or fax 301-631-9073 with his or her request. If you have any e-mail correspondence with a reviewer, you may also forward that to the above e-mail address.

Thank You,
Author Support Team
*********

wow... can we be more nasty?

oh, right... they're doing YOU a favor by publishing it - so they can treat you like trash...

I have no idea how these people sleep at night.

[LiamJackson]

<<I have no idea how these people sleep at night.>>

By counting dollars instead of sheep.

[James D Macdonald]

I have no idea how these people sleep at night.

Remember: They want you to buy your own books. Their business model is "Author buys own books."

(That's the "vanity press" business model, y'know.)

They want authors to buy books by the case. That's their whole deal. They know that authors love their books, and want to see them reviewed. So -- if PA won't send books to reviewers PA authors will take the vacation money to buy cases of their own books to send to reviewers. Happy PA! They just got their vanity fees (five bucks per copy overprice).

(Besides, they know that nowhere major is going to review a book that's already out -- books for review should go to the reviewers months before the publication date. And they know that most of the reviews, if they send 'em to legitimate review venues, will be slams (if the book is reviewed at all). )

Sure, there are lots of dandy books pubbed by PA. I figure around one or two a week are probably pretty decent (or would be with editing). It's the others they're putting out that drag down the reputation of the whole company and all of the authors.

Really. PA doesn't reject nearly enough manuscripts.

[Nameless65]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I have no idea how these people sleep at night.<hr></blockquote>
I don’t really see them as being much different from Avon, Cookie Lee (jewelry), Pampered Chef, et al. They all have you buy the product that you will sell – the more you sell the more you make but they ALWAYS make money. Even if you sell nothing, they still made money off YOU. PA seems to be a bit less above-board than the others but… well if you don’t do your research you’re just asking for it.

[DaveKuzminski]

Those other businesses don't make false claims about their business model. Admittedly, they don't accept subs from individuals, so it's not a fair comparison in that respect as well. The only businesses that are comparable to PublishAmerica are vanity publishers because of all the reasons given before.

As to proper research, many writers don't know how to do research because they're too new to the business. It's not a skill that's taught in many schools. Blaming those writers for someone taking advantage of that lack of knowledge isn't fair, either. They didn't ask to be deceived.

I suppose that kind of logic would justify banks being robbed and kids with glasses being picked upon and women being molested. However, blaming the victim doesn't cut it with me. The fault lies with those perpetrating the deeds. Keep that in mind.