- Status
Re: PA is what it is
Once again you are missing MY point.
"Serious writer" does not necessarily equal "good writer".
I know someone who just quit a six figure PR job, to move cross country to pursue her dream of screenwriting. She is a PR whiz. She is also an awful screenwriter. Will she improve by studying the craft?maybe. Will she ever be a good screenwriter - I highly doubt it. Her problem is not just with structure, dialogue, character development and plotting - although those are all problematic areas. Her main problem is that she is not an innate storyteller - she is not creative.
You are giving one size fits all information and advice to an audience that runs the gamut from a size 0 to a size 28. Yes, there are a few people who have potential and should be directed toward legit agents and publishers - but most should be directed toward better vanity publishers. And my point is that you don't know which is which but you are always focusing on the path that should be taken by a small minority of the posters.
I repeat what I said above "serious writer" does not equal "good writer"
The tone of so many of these posts looks down on vanity publishers - and those posts are coming from people who are talented (and lucky enough) to have traditional commercial publishers. MOST of the writers seeking help and advice from these boards are not in that league. And it seems that - that is rarely taken into consideration when the "Haves" offer counsel to the "Have Nots".
I'll give you one example. There's a post on one of these PA threads from a high school student who had been thinking of going with PA, but had second thoughts after reading the boards and asked for advice. Her post was one of the most horrendously written things I have ever seen. Bad spelling - and no they were not typos - there were way too many of them for that to be the case. Horrible grammar, barely able to communicate a thought or form a coheseive sentence. Every response to her post was "stay away from PA" "Have you thought about a traditional publisher?" Not one person pointed out that maybe she needed to finish high school and pay more attention in her English class before trying to get the book published. She could not construct a sentence and yet she was being given information on how to get published!
Community support is a good thing, but there should at least be a modicum of reality here. Don'tcha think?
Once again you are missing MY point.
"Serious writer" does not necessarily equal "good writer".
I know someone who just quit a six figure PR job, to move cross country to pursue her dream of screenwriting. She is a PR whiz. She is also an awful screenwriter. Will she improve by studying the craft?maybe. Will she ever be a good screenwriter - I highly doubt it. Her problem is not just with structure, dialogue, character development and plotting - although those are all problematic areas. Her main problem is that she is not an innate storyteller - she is not creative.
You are giving one size fits all information and advice to an audience that runs the gamut from a size 0 to a size 28. Yes, there are a few people who have potential and should be directed toward legit agents and publishers - but most should be directed toward better vanity publishers. And my point is that you don't know which is which but you are always focusing on the path that should be taken by a small minority of the posters.
I repeat what I said above "serious writer" does not equal "good writer"
The tone of so many of these posts looks down on vanity publishers - and those posts are coming from people who are talented (and lucky enough) to have traditional commercial publishers. MOST of the writers seeking help and advice from these boards are not in that league. And it seems that - that is rarely taken into consideration when the "Haves" offer counsel to the "Have Nots".
I'll give you one example. There's a post on one of these PA threads from a high school student who had been thinking of going with PA, but had second thoughts after reading the boards and asked for advice. Her post was one of the most horrendously written things I have ever seen. Bad spelling - and no they were not typos - there were way too many of them for that to be the case. Horrible grammar, barely able to communicate a thought or form a coheseive sentence. Every response to her post was "stay away from PA" "Have you thought about a traditional publisher?" Not one person pointed out that maybe she needed to finish high school and pay more attention in her English class before trying to get the book published. She could not construct a sentence and yet she was being given information on how to get published!
Community support is a good thing, but there should at least be a modicum of reality here. Don'tcha think?
Re: Keep this in mind
I believe all PA authors, except the very tiny few who are like a certain writer I wont mention. Would be better off with anyother publisher than PA. I think most of the books could do well with a real publisher, and maybe a little help. But will never get it now, and being laughed at doesn't incourage a writer to keep writing. When bookstores, and critics and other publishers hear who your publisher is and don't even want to talk to you. It's not fair to any of us. It looks like PA will continue for years to destroy dreams, and talent.
That Simon that was mentioned, he has the attitude to work for PA, he is mean and hates everyone and is the most insulting person on television.
People who know nothing about PA just don't understand what any of us writers are going through. It's much like any of us with no medical training trying to understand brain surgery. Maybe that is why the places we have been writing to, don't seem too interested in helping us.
Other people expect to get paid right for their services, their work, and PA wants us to do it for slave labor and bow for the honor of being published by them.
I believe all PA authors, except the very tiny few who are like a certain writer I wont mention. Would be better off with anyother publisher than PA. I think most of the books could do well with a real publisher, and maybe a little help. But will never get it now, and being laughed at doesn't incourage a writer to keep writing. When bookstores, and critics and other publishers hear who your publisher is and don't even want to talk to you. It's not fair to any of us. It looks like PA will continue for years to destroy dreams, and talent.
That Simon that was mentioned, he has the attitude to work for PA, he is mean and hates everyone and is the most insulting person on television.
People who know nothing about PA just don't understand what any of us writers are going through. It's much like any of us with no medical training trying to understand brain surgery. Maybe that is why the places we have been writing to, don't seem too interested in helping us.
Other people expect to get paid right for their services, their work, and PA wants us to do it for slave labor and bow for the honor of being published by them.
Re: PA is what it is
>>Yes, there are a few people who have potential and should be directed toward legit agents and publishers - but most should be directed toward better vanity publishers. And my point is that you don't know which is which but you are always focusing on the path that should be taken by a small minority of the posters.<<
So if we don't know which is which, how can we possibly give tailored advice, steering one person to one place and another person to another? Not to mention, it's not up to us to make that sort of judgment.
We are focusing on the path that WILL be taken by a small minority of the posters. A small but crucial difference. Since, as you point out, we don't know who is in that minority, we provide the same advice to all. The writers are free to make the attempt (or not, as they choose), and be sorted out by the realities of the process.
>>Do a lot of talented writers fall through the cracks and not get the opportunities they should. Of course!<<
What was that about perpetuating a fantasy?
- Not Vicky
>>Yes, there are a few people who have potential and should be directed toward legit agents and publishers - but most should be directed toward better vanity publishers. And my point is that you don't know which is which but you are always focusing on the path that should be taken by a small minority of the posters.<<
So if we don't know which is which, how can we possibly give tailored advice, steering one person to one place and another person to another? Not to mention, it's not up to us to make that sort of judgment.
We are focusing on the path that WILL be taken by a small minority of the posters. A small but crucial difference. Since, as you point out, we don't know who is in that minority, we provide the same advice to all. The writers are free to make the attempt (or not, as they choose), and be sorted out by the realities of the process.
>>Do a lot of talented writers fall through the cracks and not get the opportunities they should. Of course!<<
What was that about perpetuating a fantasy?
- Not Vicky
Re: PA is what it is
You just keep on being Tough Minded and Realistic, SimonSays.
I'll keep on helping writers.
You just keep on being Tough Minded and Realistic, SimonSays.
I'll keep on helping writers.
Re: PA is what it is
Maybe you are right Laverne that most of the writers would be better off with a different publisher. PA sounds pretty damn crappy and like it misleads its authors. But for most PA writers in the end, it is not a choice between PA and Random House. For most it is a choice between PA and iuniverse or some other vanity press.
Most of the PA books would never get published by a traditional, legitimate commercial publisher like the kind talked about on these boards. It might sound mean, but it is true. Writing a book and writing a good, commercially viable book are two very different things. Traditional publishers publish books that they think will make money. Books that are well written and have a broad appeal. They use editors to work with the writers to make a GOOD manuscript better – to tighten it up, open it up – whatever it needs to reach it’s potential. Traditional publishers are not going to take a book if the writer does not have that potential (unless of course the author is a celebrity who’s name alone will sell tens if not hundreds of thousands of copies). And as I said most of the PA writers sadly do not have that potential. Most writers in general do not have that potential.
Vicki asks:
So if we don't know which is which, how can we possibly give tailored advice, steering one person to one place and another person to another?
SimonSays:
Obviously you can’t, but since you don’t know which is which, and since you do know that there are more bad or mediocre writers than really talented ones, then maybe the answer is to keep in mind that the post you are replying to is probably written by one of the bad/mediocre ones and reply accordingly (i.e. a little less focus on standard royalty percentages a little more props for the vanity presses). Rule #37 for writers “KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE”.
Vicki also asks:
What was that about perpetuating a fantasy?
SimonSays:
That was not my intention. I just didn’t want any of you to think that I thought that only bad writers were unsuccessful.
As for Simon Cowell, he may be mean – but at least he’s honest. Most of the contestants on that show do not have what it takes to have successful singing careers.
And though it may be painful for them to hear the truth, to quote Nick Lowe, sometimes “you gotta be cruel to be kind.”
Maybe you are right Laverne that most of the writers would be better off with a different publisher. PA sounds pretty damn crappy and like it misleads its authors. But for most PA writers in the end, it is not a choice between PA and Random House. For most it is a choice between PA and iuniverse or some other vanity press.
Most of the PA books would never get published by a traditional, legitimate commercial publisher like the kind talked about on these boards. It might sound mean, but it is true. Writing a book and writing a good, commercially viable book are two very different things. Traditional publishers publish books that they think will make money. Books that are well written and have a broad appeal. They use editors to work with the writers to make a GOOD manuscript better – to tighten it up, open it up – whatever it needs to reach it’s potential. Traditional publishers are not going to take a book if the writer does not have that potential (unless of course the author is a celebrity who’s name alone will sell tens if not hundreds of thousands of copies). And as I said most of the PA writers sadly do not have that potential. Most writers in general do not have that potential.
Vicki asks:
So if we don't know which is which, how can we possibly give tailored advice, steering one person to one place and another person to another?
SimonSays:
Obviously you can’t, but since you don’t know which is which, and since you do know that there are more bad or mediocre writers than really talented ones, then maybe the answer is to keep in mind that the post you are replying to is probably written by one of the bad/mediocre ones and reply accordingly (i.e. a little less focus on standard royalty percentages a little more props for the vanity presses). Rule #37 for writers “KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE”.
Vicki also asks:
What was that about perpetuating a fantasy?
SimonSays:
That was not my intention. I just didn’t want any of you to think that I thought that only bad writers were unsuccessful.
As for Simon Cowell, he may be mean – but at least he’s honest. Most of the contestants on that show do not have what it takes to have successful singing careers.
And though it may be painful for them to hear the truth, to quote Nick Lowe, sometimes “you gotta be cruel to be kind.”
Re: PA is what it is
Shorter Victoria and Everyone Else: "If you want to be a writer, here's how...."
Shorter SimonSays: "Find a different hobby, kid."
<hr>
Who among us, seeing someone about to make a disasterous choice, wouldn't say, "Wait up! That isn't the way things work!"
If I warn a friend off marrying a brutal drunk with a string of failed marriages and restraining orders behind him, I'm not promising her a fairy-tale romance with Prince Charming. I'm trying to keep her from getting her lights punched out and her bank account drained by a brutal drunk.
I feel that's my moral duty.
Shorter Victoria and Everyone Else: "If you want to be a writer, here's how...."
Shorter SimonSays: "Find a different hobby, kid."
<hr>
Who among us, seeing someone about to make a disasterous choice, wouldn't say, "Wait up! That isn't the way things work!"
If I warn a friend off marrying a brutal drunk with a string of failed marriages and restraining orders behind him, I'm not promising her a fairy-tale romance with Prince Charming. I'm trying to keep her from getting her lights punched out and her bank account drained by a brutal drunk.
I feel that's my moral duty.
Re: PA is what it is
"You are giving one size fits all information and advice to an audience that runs the gamut from a size 0 to a size 28."
SimonSays, that's exactly what you did when you chose to spout the paragraph listed below:
"The bottom line is that the vast, vast, vast majority of the PA writers would never get a publishing deal at ANY traditional publisher, because to be brutally honest they are just not good enough writers. I am not critiquing the talent of any individual writer and I am certain that a small percentage of the PA writers do in fact have talent, but most do not."
Sir, your statements are very discriminatory, without sound evidence and lacking in substance. I would suggest that you have all of your ducks in row before placing all PA authors in the same "non-writing, talentless" category. The fact remains that you sir, would have to purchase and read all 6,000-8,000 PA Authors' books to make that type of statement/decision.
Today, many, many "famous" authors cannot write and were not published by Publish America, yet they get on New York's best selling list. Why? It's a matter of preferance. The reading public rushes to purchase their books because they are either "stars", "public figures" or have written block buster novels before. In essence, what I'm attempting to relay to you is don't put all writers in the same negative category just because they were published by PA.
As a rule, before all of this controversary started about PA, I doubt very seriously if the reading public chose to look at the publisher of a book that they were in the process of purchasing...I know I didn't and don't to this day.
When I enter a bookstore I search for titles, perhaps familiar authors then new authors if the title and synopsis catch my eye. So, if PA just happens to be the publisher of a book has nothing to do with the whether the book is good or bad.
"You are giving one size fits all information and advice to an audience that runs the gamut from a size 0 to a size 28."
SimonSays, that's exactly what you did when you chose to spout the paragraph listed below:
"The bottom line is that the vast, vast, vast majority of the PA writers would never get a publishing deal at ANY traditional publisher, because to be brutally honest they are just not good enough writers. I am not critiquing the talent of any individual writer and I am certain that a small percentage of the PA writers do in fact have talent, but most do not."
Sir, your statements are very discriminatory, without sound evidence and lacking in substance. I would suggest that you have all of your ducks in row before placing all PA authors in the same "non-writing, talentless" category. The fact remains that you sir, would have to purchase and read all 6,000-8,000 PA Authors' books to make that type of statement/decision.
Today, many, many "famous" authors cannot write and were not published by Publish America, yet they get on New York's best selling list. Why? It's a matter of preferance. The reading public rushes to purchase their books because they are either "stars", "public figures" or have written block buster novels before. In essence, what I'm attempting to relay to you is don't put all writers in the same negative category just because they were published by PA.
As a rule, before all of this controversary started about PA, I doubt very seriously if the reading public chose to look at the publisher of a book that they were in the process of purchasing...I know I didn't and don't to this day.
When I enter a bookstore I search for titles, perhaps familiar authors then new authors if the title and synopsis catch my eye. So, if PA just happens to be the publisher of a book has nothing to do with the whether the book is good or bad.
Re: PA is what it is
James Says:
If I warn a friend off marrying a brutal drunk with a string of failed marriages and restraining orders behind him, I'm not promising her a fairy-tale romance with Prince Charming. I'm trying to keep her from getting her lights punched out and her bank account drained by a brutal drunk
Simon Says:
Warning a friend off marrying a drunk (or a writer off signing with PA) is the right thing to do. I have no problem with that.
But while you may not be “promising her a fairy-tale romance” with Prince Charming, you are in fact holding up Prince Charming as a viable alternative. You are not just trying to keep them from making a mistake by signing with PA – you spend an awful lot of time comparing PA to real traditional publishing houses (for our purposes, Prince Charming) while it might serve them better if you mentioned Maury the butcher (other vanity press options).
James I truly believe you are trying to help writers, but I also believe that you do not always take into consideration the potential of those you are seeking to help.
I noticed that you have a link to your editing services on your posts. And no, I am not attacking you for doing so, or for charging what you charge – in fact I think it’s a reasonable fee. But I do wonder what you do when you come across a truly awful ms or a writer who is totally hopeless. Do you rewrite the whole damn thing and then let them believe it’s their own work? Return the money and give them some excuse? Try to steer them toward more realistic goals? Encourage them, even if you know they will never succeed? And if you did encourage them even though you know they will never succeed AND did take the money – where exactly does that put you morally? Where is the balance between being supportive, helpful, keeping the dream alive and taking advantage of someone? It’s a tough call, isn’t it? Even if you take the money out of the equation, it’s a tough call on a moral level, supporting someone’s dreams when you know that doing so in the end, will just set them up for a huge fall.
I think this is sounding far more aggressive than I intend it to. I really do believe you are operating with the best of intentions, James.
James Says:
If I warn a friend off marrying a brutal drunk with a string of failed marriages and restraining orders behind him, I'm not promising her a fairy-tale romance with Prince Charming. I'm trying to keep her from getting her lights punched out and her bank account drained by a brutal drunk
Simon Says:
Warning a friend off marrying a drunk (or a writer off signing with PA) is the right thing to do. I have no problem with that.
But while you may not be “promising her a fairy-tale romance” with Prince Charming, you are in fact holding up Prince Charming as a viable alternative. You are not just trying to keep them from making a mistake by signing with PA – you spend an awful lot of time comparing PA to real traditional publishing houses (for our purposes, Prince Charming) while it might serve them better if you mentioned Maury the butcher (other vanity press options).
James I truly believe you are trying to help writers, but I also believe that you do not always take into consideration the potential of those you are seeking to help.
I noticed that you have a link to your editing services on your posts. And no, I am not attacking you for doing so, or for charging what you charge – in fact I think it’s a reasonable fee. But I do wonder what you do when you come across a truly awful ms or a writer who is totally hopeless. Do you rewrite the whole damn thing and then let them believe it’s their own work? Return the money and give them some excuse? Try to steer them toward more realistic goals? Encourage them, even if you know they will never succeed? And if you did encourage them even though you know they will never succeed AND did take the money – where exactly does that put you morally? Where is the balance between being supportive, helpful, keeping the dream alive and taking advantage of someone? It’s a tough call, isn’t it? Even if you take the money out of the equation, it’s a tough call on a moral level, supporting someone’s dreams when you know that doing so in the end, will just set them up for a huge fall.
I think this is sounding far more aggressive than I intend it to. I really do believe you are operating with the best of intentions, James.
Re: PA is what it is
...Maury the butcher (other vanity press options).
I try to warn people off other vanity press options too.
Just like there are worse things in the world than being unmarried , there are worse things in the world than being unpublished.
<hr>
The vanity presses are bad choices for most writers. "Maury the Butcher" is more like the small press. Not much advance money, distribution and publicity far less, but still respectable. You can be happy there.
For works that won't fit with the small press, then self-publishing (this is mostly specialized non-fiction, poetry, and limited niche markets).
Vanity press? No, I wouldn't recommend that.
<hr>
As for what I'll do with a truly wretched manuscript? I'll edit it to the best of my ability. I don't re-write. I make suggestions. Whether they follow those suggestions or not is wholly up to the authors.
I specifically say that I don't promise publication, or even that you'll like what I have to say.
I look on it as a learning opportunity. You've hired me to tell you what I think is wrong with your writing. I'll tell you, straight out, honestly, and as helpfully as I can.
As to why I'm charging money -- it's because I can't afford to donate more of my time to this than I already do.
...Maury the butcher (other vanity press options).
I try to warn people off other vanity press options too.
Just like there are worse things in the world than being unmarried , there are worse things in the world than being unpublished.
<hr>
The vanity presses are bad choices for most writers. "Maury the Butcher" is more like the small press. Not much advance money, distribution and publicity far less, but still respectable. You can be happy there.
For works that won't fit with the small press, then self-publishing (this is mostly specialized non-fiction, poetry, and limited niche markets).
Vanity press? No, I wouldn't recommend that.
<hr>
As for what I'll do with a truly wretched manuscript? I'll edit it to the best of my ability. I don't re-write. I make suggestions. Whether they follow those suggestions or not is wholly up to the authors.
I specifically say that I don't promise publication, or even that you'll like what I have to say.
I look on it as a learning opportunity. You've hired me to tell you what I think is wrong with your writing. I'll tell you, straight out, honestly, and as helpfully as I can.
As to why I'm charging money -- it's because I can't afford to donate more of my time to this than I already do.
Something important is being missed
This site is mostly for the benefit of writers who need to be informed about what's taking place within the publishing industry. We can't decide the fate of every writer, but we can tell there where there are obvious problems. Why don't we do that for the publishers? Because they're already in control of whose books are accepted.
Why are we repeating the discussion? Because there are always new writers seeking information and many are not knowledgeable enough to find what was posted before. If not for that, then because those warnings are now buried quite deep to where a reasonable person has to wonder if spending the time on researching one topic rather than another will be profitable in terms of spending valuable time. It's like digging in a field for a coin that might not be there. You have to make a judgment call when you don't have the tools to know for certain if what you seek is there.
We then leave the decision making to the writer. They choose what publishing options appeals most to them and move on from there. We don't heckle those who choose PA anyway. We wish them luck and hope they aren't hurt.
By the way, SimonSays, your response to Victoria was rude. She gave a big hint that she didn't care to be addressed in an abbreviated manner.
This site is mostly for the benefit of writers who need to be informed about what's taking place within the publishing industry. We can't decide the fate of every writer, but we can tell there where there are obvious problems. Why don't we do that for the publishers? Because they're already in control of whose books are accepted.
Why are we repeating the discussion? Because there are always new writers seeking information and many are not knowledgeable enough to find what was posted before. If not for that, then because those warnings are now buried quite deep to where a reasonable person has to wonder if spending the time on researching one topic rather than another will be profitable in terms of spending valuable time. It's like digging in a field for a coin that might not be there. You have to make a judgment call when you don't have the tools to know for certain if what you seek is there.
We then leave the decision making to the writer. They choose what publishing options appeals most to them and move on from there. We don't heckle those who choose PA anyway. We wish them luck and hope they aren't hurt.
By the way, SimonSays, your response to Victoria was rude. She gave a big hint that she didn't care to be addressed in an abbreviated manner.
PublishAmerica versus traditional publishing houses
The problem I have with PublishAmerica and why we are terminating our contract, is that PA positions itself as a traditional publishing house and it is not.
I am a published author, two nonfiction books with John Wiley & Sons, and working on a third for Dearborn Trade, which just happens to be on the book publishing industry, "The Making of a Bestseller."
When PA approached us about publishing our novel "Overtime" we did some basic research, BUT when they said they were a traditional publishing house, that their books were available in bricks and mortar stores, they provided editing, and marketing, would send press releases and review copies, we believed them.
Our previous experience with a publisher led us to have no reason to doubt PA. We knew what a traditional publisher was supposed to do.
PublishAmerica doesn't do what a traditional publishing house does.
We even had the possibility of having a review of Overtime in BookList, (a university librarian loved it and gave it a great pre-pub review which I sent to Bill Ott and he requested our publisher to send him two galley copies) until they found out PublishAmerica was the publisher.
When approaching Borders for a book signing during football season (there is a football story in Overtime) they were excited until they found out Overtime was not available to be ordered through their system. That is a direct conflict to PA's claim.
PA claims that their books are discounted to amazon.com I have that in writing from them. Only six books out of the over 3100 books are discounted at amazon.com.
Well, before I go on and on, my point in trying to warn other people about PA is that PublishAmerica is not a traditional publishing house, as they say they are.
Is that fraud? I don't know. But our law firm does, and they're working on it.
Oh, this is kind of funny. The attorney that we work with at our law firm was attending BEA last week, and a writer came up to her and said, "Oh I've heard about you, you're a great entertainment law firm. Look I have a contract with this #@#*! publishing firm that I have to get out of, it's located in Maryland." Our attorney asked who the publishing company was. You guessed it. PublishAmerica.
Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com
Neither of our contracts for nonfiction says specifically that our books will be available at Barnes and Nobles, but it is an underlying assumption that they will be.
The problem I have with PublishAmerica and why we are terminating our contract, is that PA positions itself as a traditional publishing house and it is not.
I am a published author, two nonfiction books with John Wiley & Sons, and working on a third for Dearborn Trade, which just happens to be on the book publishing industry, "The Making of a Bestseller."
When PA approached us about publishing our novel "Overtime" we did some basic research, BUT when they said they were a traditional publishing house, that their books were available in bricks and mortar stores, they provided editing, and marketing, would send press releases and review copies, we believed them.
Our previous experience with a publisher led us to have no reason to doubt PA. We knew what a traditional publisher was supposed to do.
PublishAmerica doesn't do what a traditional publishing house does.
We even had the possibility of having a review of Overtime in BookList, (a university librarian loved it and gave it a great pre-pub review which I sent to Bill Ott and he requested our publisher to send him two galley copies) until they found out PublishAmerica was the publisher.
When approaching Borders for a book signing during football season (there is a football story in Overtime) they were excited until they found out Overtime was not available to be ordered through their system. That is a direct conflict to PA's claim.
PA claims that their books are discounted to amazon.com I have that in writing from them. Only six books out of the over 3100 books are discounted at amazon.com.
Well, before I go on and on, my point in trying to warn other people about PA is that PublishAmerica is not a traditional publishing house, as they say they are.
Is that fraud? I don't know. But our law firm does, and they're working on it.
Oh, this is kind of funny. The attorney that we work with at our law firm was attending BEA last week, and a writer came up to her and said, "Oh I've heard about you, you're a great entertainment law firm. Look I have a contract with this #@#*! publishing firm that I have to get out of, it's located in Maryland." Our attorney asked who the publishing company was. You guessed it. PublishAmerica.
Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com
Neither of our contracts for nonfiction says specifically that our books will be available at Barnes and Nobles, but it is an underlying assumption that they will be.
Re: PublishAmerica versus traditional publishing houses
When PA approached us about publishing our novel "Overtime" ....
Hold up, there, Dee! They approached [/i]you[/i]?
How did that work?
When PA approached us about publishing our novel "Overtime" ....
Hold up, there, Dee! They approached [/i]you[/i]?
How did that work?
Re: PublishAmerica versus traditional publishing houses
I would too. Sounds like your attorneys should have plenty of evidence for fraud if that is indeed the case that they approached you. This looks too much like they were trying to gain legitimacy by getting your book published by them so they could claim authors from real publishing houses were changing over to them since that is indeed one of the claims they have made recently.
I would too. Sounds like your attorneys should have plenty of evidence for fraud if that is indeed the case that they approached you. This looks too much like they were trying to gain legitimacy by getting your book published by them so they could claim authors from real publishing houses were changing over to them since that is indeed one of the claims they have made recently.
Re: PA is what it is
Obviously I struck a nerve Teena, or else you are extremely defensive, by nature.
My statements are not discriminatory. Generalizations, maybe, Descriminatory, no. I specifically said that most writers in general are not good enough writers to get published for real. True I did not conduct a scientific test, nor did I read all 8,000 PA titles. I used something called statistics along with reason and logic to make those statements, and if you like I will share that methodology with you.
As mentioned in a previous post my agent accepts 1% of the submissions received. The large majority are rejected because they suck. Checking on other agencies, I have consistently come across a 1-2% acceptance rate. Most common reason for rejection per my informal poll? Once again because they suck.
From what I have gathered from these boards, PA pretty much accepts anything that comes across it’s path (except maybe porn and how to kill manuals –for legal liability reasons, I assume). PA has about 8,000 authors. I am making an assumption here that few if any of these authors have agents – because no agent in the world would let their client sign such a crappy contract. If all 8,000 previously attempted to get agents and all failed, then it would not be a stretch to assume that all 8,000 suck. However, my guess is that not all 8,000 have tried to get agents. But let’s say all 8,000 did decide to try to get an agent – based on the unscientific research above, I would guess that 1-2% - to be generous I’ll pick 2% - would be accepted. This means 7,840 would be rejected – and most of those would be rejected. Why? Say it with me now: “Because they suck!”
All kidding aside, statistically speaking, about 160 of PA’s authors would get an agent. And there’s no guarantee that all of those would get published (then again one or two without an agent might get published). So that was where the term ‘vast vast vast majority’ came from, because in my humble opinion 7,840 is the vast, vast, vast, majority of 8,000.
The main reason that Vanity Publishers are not respected by booksellers is because there is no filter process to weed out the bad and the commercially unviable. When an agent evaluates a manuscript, one of the things he is looking to see is if the ms has the potential to make money, because if it doesn’t make money, he doesn’t make money. When he sends that MS to a publisher – the publisher already knows that the agent thinks the book will make money. When the publisher distributes it to Barnes & Noble, B&N knows that both the agent and publisher believe the book will make money, which means B&N will make money. Not so with a vanity press book. You thinking it will make money or your Aunt Irma thinking it will make money doesn’t count. Also vanity presses do not have marketing or advertising dollars available to promote their titles or funds for co-op advertising to promote the booksellers.
Also the bookstores have a limited amount of shelf space – so they are far more interested in making that space available to the books that a) have been deemed (by someone other than you and your Aunt Irma) to have money making potential b) will be promoted. c) are distributed by companies that have made money for them in the past.
The stigma that you believe is unjustly attached to vanity presses, is not necessarily unjust. Without any quality control measures in place for their products or marketing dollars for promotion, these books would just gather dust on the shelves. Commercially speaking, they are not a good bet.
That said, Vanity presses do have their place. For those writers who dream of being in print, but are not good enough writers to be published it is a reasonable alternative. An alternative, that I think does not get it’s due on this board. It is nice to want to believe that everyone who posts here is talented enough to get published by a traditional publisher. But no matter how much you may want to believe it – it is not the reality.
DaveKuzminski (have no desire to be accused of being rude again) actually I was not being rude the first time, I did not get the ‘big hint’, I thought “Not Vicky” not "NOT" Vicky WAS her sign off, which is why I called her Vicky.
I have checked out your site as well as Victoria’s and I think they are great resources. I think it’s wonderful that people post warnings on these boards regarding scam agents, bad publishers, etc. I think it’s great that people can get support, advice and inspiration for their writing. But these boards are not just informational resources they are ongoing dialogues and it appears that there is no balance in the dialogues on pubilshing. There is an awful lot of griping and encouragement, without any reality checks.
James - you seem to be totally avoiding the main issue that I was addressing to you, I don't know if it's because you don't understand what I was asking, or if it's because you are uncomfortable acknowledging that there are people on this site who want to be writers who do not have the ability to succeed - but I am not the type to beat a dead horse so I'll let it go.
Obviously I struck a nerve Teena, or else you are extremely defensive, by nature.
My statements are not discriminatory. Generalizations, maybe, Descriminatory, no. I specifically said that most writers in general are not good enough writers to get published for real. True I did not conduct a scientific test, nor did I read all 8,000 PA titles. I used something called statistics along with reason and logic to make those statements, and if you like I will share that methodology with you.
As mentioned in a previous post my agent accepts 1% of the submissions received. The large majority are rejected because they suck. Checking on other agencies, I have consistently come across a 1-2% acceptance rate. Most common reason for rejection per my informal poll? Once again because they suck.
From what I have gathered from these boards, PA pretty much accepts anything that comes across it’s path (except maybe porn and how to kill manuals –for legal liability reasons, I assume). PA has about 8,000 authors. I am making an assumption here that few if any of these authors have agents – because no agent in the world would let their client sign such a crappy contract. If all 8,000 previously attempted to get agents and all failed, then it would not be a stretch to assume that all 8,000 suck. However, my guess is that not all 8,000 have tried to get agents. But let’s say all 8,000 did decide to try to get an agent – based on the unscientific research above, I would guess that 1-2% - to be generous I’ll pick 2% - would be accepted. This means 7,840 would be rejected – and most of those would be rejected. Why? Say it with me now: “Because they suck!”
All kidding aside, statistically speaking, about 160 of PA’s authors would get an agent. And there’s no guarantee that all of those would get published (then again one or two without an agent might get published). So that was where the term ‘vast vast vast majority’ came from, because in my humble opinion 7,840 is the vast, vast, vast, majority of 8,000.
The main reason that Vanity Publishers are not respected by booksellers is because there is no filter process to weed out the bad and the commercially unviable. When an agent evaluates a manuscript, one of the things he is looking to see is if the ms has the potential to make money, because if it doesn’t make money, he doesn’t make money. When he sends that MS to a publisher – the publisher already knows that the agent thinks the book will make money. When the publisher distributes it to Barnes & Noble, B&N knows that both the agent and publisher believe the book will make money, which means B&N will make money. Not so with a vanity press book. You thinking it will make money or your Aunt Irma thinking it will make money doesn’t count. Also vanity presses do not have marketing or advertising dollars available to promote their titles or funds for co-op advertising to promote the booksellers.
Also the bookstores have a limited amount of shelf space – so they are far more interested in making that space available to the books that a) have been deemed (by someone other than you and your Aunt Irma) to have money making potential b) will be promoted. c) are distributed by companies that have made money for them in the past.
The stigma that you believe is unjustly attached to vanity presses, is not necessarily unjust. Without any quality control measures in place for their products or marketing dollars for promotion, these books would just gather dust on the shelves. Commercially speaking, they are not a good bet.
That said, Vanity presses do have their place. For those writers who dream of being in print, but are not good enough writers to be published it is a reasonable alternative. An alternative, that I think does not get it’s due on this board. It is nice to want to believe that everyone who posts here is talented enough to get published by a traditional publisher. But no matter how much you may want to believe it – it is not the reality.
DaveKuzminski (have no desire to be accused of being rude again) actually I was not being rude the first time, I did not get the ‘big hint’, I thought “Not Vicky” not "NOT" Vicky WAS her sign off, which is why I called her Vicky.
I have checked out your site as well as Victoria’s and I think they are great resources. I think it’s wonderful that people post warnings on these boards regarding scam agents, bad publishers, etc. I think it’s great that people can get support, advice and inspiration for their writing. But these boards are not just informational resources they are ongoing dialogues and it appears that there is no balance in the dialogues on pubilshing. There is an awful lot of griping and encouragement, without any reality checks.
James - you seem to be totally avoiding the main issue that I was addressing to you, I don't know if it's because you don't understand what I was asking, or if it's because you are uncomfortable acknowledging that there are people on this site who want to be writers who do not have the ability to succeed - but I am not the type to beat a dead horse so I'll let it go.
PublishAmerica versus traditional publishing houses
Yes, PA contacted us. I can't go into the details of how and why. We were looking for an agent for both our nonfiction and fiction work. I found John Wiley & Sons myself, contacted them and negotiated the contract, well I use the term negotiated very loosely.
We do have an agent now. It was too late for Overtime, we'd already signed the contract with PA.
We hired our law firm last September, we decided that if we were going to be authors (and screenwriters) then we should be represented. I never thought we would be using them to terminate our PublishAmerica contract but- so be it.
Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com
Yes, PA contacted us. I can't go into the details of how and why. We were looking for an agent for both our nonfiction and fiction work. I found John Wiley & Sons myself, contacted them and negotiated the contract, well I use the term negotiated very loosely.
We do have an agent now. It was too late for Overtime, we'd already signed the contract with PA.
We hired our law firm last September, we decided that if we were going to be authors (and screenwriters) then we should be represented. I never thought we would be using them to terminate our PublishAmerica contract but- so be it.
Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com
Re: PA is what it is
I must admit I agree with most of what you stated statistically in your 6th post. There are a few small details that do not greatly affect what you stated. I know that a few of the PA authors were represented by "agents". However, it's my understanding that those agents were basically fee chargers themselves, so that shouldn't impact on your overall generalizations.
Unfortunately, many writers seeking to publish their first book do so because they believe, based upon faulty information perpetrated by movies and TV programs to name two sources, that all writers become rich and some become famous. They're up against the wall in trying to make ends meet at home. They're already using all their employment skills and still not making it, so the ability to write a book is one of the few remaining things they can try in order to bust out of their current environment. Of course, they've always heard that advancement is up to them, so it comes as no surprise that they have to apply effort in order to succeed at publishing. However, they're being misled by the publisher they've chosen. It's not up to them once the book is written. It's up to the publisher. What's more, the publisher knows that most of them simply do not have the funds to fight back. The few who do soon learn that they won't gain back enough to make up for the cost of fighting, so they don't fight, either. When faced with the fact that they can shut up or see their books tied up for the full contract term, most see the writing on the wall and accept a quiet resolution or simply bide their time in hopes of still having enough time to change events to their favor with a new publisher later. Some are content to bask in the small glory it gives them among their friends because they did something that most people haven't done. They wrote and finished a book and then got it published.
One other thing I've noticed is that those of us who are on the same side do tend to forget that we are and lose sight that each of us still views the overall situation based upon our own viewpoints which are bound to differ. I'm certain the others will agree that I can be very obstinate, aggressive, and irritating at times. Anyway, lest we forget, I will say welcome to the board.
I must admit I agree with most of what you stated statistically in your 6th post. There are a few small details that do not greatly affect what you stated. I know that a few of the PA authors were represented by "agents". However, it's my understanding that those agents were basically fee chargers themselves, so that shouldn't impact on your overall generalizations.
Unfortunately, many writers seeking to publish their first book do so because they believe, based upon faulty information perpetrated by movies and TV programs to name two sources, that all writers become rich and some become famous. They're up against the wall in trying to make ends meet at home. They're already using all their employment skills and still not making it, so the ability to write a book is one of the few remaining things they can try in order to bust out of their current environment. Of course, they've always heard that advancement is up to them, so it comes as no surprise that they have to apply effort in order to succeed at publishing. However, they're being misled by the publisher they've chosen. It's not up to them once the book is written. It's up to the publisher. What's more, the publisher knows that most of them simply do not have the funds to fight back. The few who do soon learn that they won't gain back enough to make up for the cost of fighting, so they don't fight, either. When faced with the fact that they can shut up or see their books tied up for the full contract term, most see the writing on the wall and accept a quiet resolution or simply bide their time in hopes of still having enough time to change events to their favor with a new publisher later. Some are content to bask in the small glory it gives them among their friends because they did something that most people haven't done. They wrote and finished a book and then got it published.
One other thing I've noticed is that those of us who are on the same side do tend to forget that we are and lose sight that each of us still views the overall situation based upon our own viewpoints which are bound to differ. I'm certain the others will agree that I can be very obstinate, aggressive, and irritating at times. Anyway, lest we forget, I will say welcome to the board.
Re: PublishAmerica & PRWEB???
Hello!
As you can see, I’m new here. I have a friend who’s with PA and is getting unhappy with them. She pointed out that PRWEB is highly advocated by the authors at PA, especially in this thread entitled My Newest Press Release:
www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/4394.htm
This guy has gone all out in buying publicity for his book as he’ll summarize for all the good readers.
What strikes me is this part:
<<This morning after 22 hrs my stats are: 47952 views, 461 pick ups, 23 friendly print button, and 18 forwards.
I also have a number emails in my box I havent been able to check yet as well as my phone machine is blinking with 5 calls. I am just home from working 11 hours so the above can wait until I awake...since my release says phone calls after 2p.m. to 9p.m.>>
My friend says that if she had that kind of response, she wouldn’t be on the PA message boards bragging about things that might be. Maybe those 5 calls are wrong numbers/hang ups. Those emails could be offers -- or junk?
So is PA somehow affiliated with PRWeb, even though they’re located on opposite sides of the country? Any opinions?
Thanks!
KJR
Hello!
As you can see, I’m new here. I have a friend who’s with PA and is getting unhappy with them. She pointed out that PRWEB is highly advocated by the authors at PA, especially in this thread entitled My Newest Press Release:
www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/4394.htm
This guy has gone all out in buying publicity for his book as he’ll summarize for all the good readers.
What strikes me is this part:
<<This morning after 22 hrs my stats are: 47952 views, 461 pick ups, 23 friendly print button, and 18 forwards.
I also have a number emails in my box I havent been able to check yet as well as my phone machine is blinking with 5 calls. I am just home from working 11 hours so the above can wait until I awake...since my release says phone calls after 2p.m. to 9p.m.>>
My friend says that if she had that kind of response, she wouldn’t be on the PA message boards bragging about things that might be. Maybe those 5 calls are wrong numbers/hang ups. Those emails could be offers -- or junk?
So is PA somehow affiliated with PRWeb, even though they’re located on opposite sides of the country? Any opinions?
Thanks!
KJR
PA is what it is
Thanks Dave for acknowledging that there is some merit in my viewpoint. And what you said about misconceptions perpetrated by tv, movies, the media, etc. is very true.
The joy of writing, should be in the writing and the rewriting and the rewriting and the rewriting and the rewriting and then of course, in the rewriting. This is true even for professional writers, successful writers, rich and famous writers. For people who support themselves writing there are other considerations and other subsequent joys. But very few will ever know those subsequent joys, and will in fact suffer a barrage of frustrations that will diminish the joy they should feel for having completed a novel - whether it's marketable or not.
Maybe James is right, but then again maybe it is better for some to see their name on the cover of a vanity published book, then never to see their name on the cover of a book at all.
Thanks Dave for acknowledging that there is some merit in my viewpoint. And what you said about misconceptions perpetrated by tv, movies, the media, etc. is very true.
The joy of writing, should be in the writing and the rewriting and the rewriting and the rewriting and the rewriting and then of course, in the rewriting. This is true even for professional writers, successful writers, rich and famous writers. For people who support themselves writing there are other considerations and other subsequent joys. But very few will ever know those subsequent joys, and will in fact suffer a barrage of frustrations that will diminish the joy they should feel for having completed a novel - whether it's marketable or not.
Maybe James is right, but then again maybe it is better for some to see their name on the cover of a vanity published book, then never to see their name on the cover of a book at all.
Re: PublishAmerica & PRWEB???
I think some of the PR outfits are taking advantage of the chum in the water provided by the vanity publishing outfits. Just more sharks to deal with, though I'm sure some can actually deliver. However, I don't know which ones are credible in that regard. P&E hasn't received much in the way of complaints about any of the PR firms. Two complaints about one and one complaint about another.
Gosh, Captain America ads come up when I post.
I think some of the PR outfits are taking advantage of the chum in the water provided by the vanity publishing outfits. Just more sharks to deal with, though I'm sure some can actually deliver. However, I don't know which ones are credible in that regard. P&E hasn't received much in the way of complaints about any of the PR firms. Two complaints about one and one complaint about another.
Gosh, Captain America ads come up when I post.
PR web and PA NOT the same
PRWeb is a press release distribution service that is reasonably priced. You can have your release distributed free but with no tracking. If you want tracking and some other bells and whistles then you decide how much you want to pay.
I've used it several times with good results.
Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com
PRWeb is a press release distribution service that is reasonably priced. You can have your release distributed free but with no tracking. If you want tracking and some other bells and whistles then you decide how much you want to pay.
I've used it several times with good results.
Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com
Dave AKA Capt. America
Don't let it go to your head. And remember, this means "they" know who you are... :rofl
[wondering to self: what logarithm do they use to decide what ad to put where?]
Don't let it go to your head. And remember, this means "they" know who you are... :rofl
[wondering to self: what logarithm do they use to decide what ad to put where?]
- Status