The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

[Dancre]

I do not understand PA. they say: "Our track record is impeccable. You want to keep in mind that PublishAmerica is revolutionizing the publishing industry." How can they claim they are "revolutionizing the publishing industry" when the publishing industry refuses to acknowledge them?! For Pete's sake, bookstore owners lock the doors when PA authors walk across the parking lot! i've read excerpts from PA books and well, some of them remind me of a cheap, internet story than a decent (can't say best) selling novel. Yet PA keeps feeding them, saying "Don't worry about grammer, pace, or characters! Those are not important. Give us your book as is, and you'll be the next Charles Dickins." Then the poor writers follow the piper to the river, never listening to those warning them of danger. I really believe that some of the PA writers could actually be great writers, if only they'd listened. Oh, Well, what can ya do? :\
kim

[James D Macdonald]

You know, some of us would actually just like to have a conversation about writing.

I'm trying, up in the Novel board.

James, everyone, y'all are invited.

[dgkgoldberg]

well, as a long term lurker there, other people ask all the ?s I would ask, so I will just keep lurking

but it is very useful.

thank you

[DaveKuzminski]

Well, it is impeccable. They just didn't say it was impeccably good.

They are revolutionizing the publishing industry by trying to take it back to a time when there were no returns and bookstores lost money to unscrupulous publishers who falsely inflated the demand for their product.

What can we do? Don't let them bury the facts.

Eventually, new writers will recognize the problem before it's too late when they see so many writers published by one publisher without so much as a single best-seller among them.

Eventually, new writers will notice among all the postings in that publisher's forum that the overwhelming majority of orders from bookstores came from single stores and not from the chain itself. Those new writers will also notice that those orders didn't come because the store manager went through a catalogue and picked out the book, but because someone approached him wanting him to order it. As an aside, I'm waiting to see how long it takes before some of those writers who succeeded in getting their books ordered by a store start blaming the lack of sales on a lack of promotion by that store. Another event I expect to see is the first mention anywhere of one of their writers complaining about having to pay a store for the returns they promised they'd handle personally. We know it's going to happen to one of those 6000 "happy" writers which is another of their publisher's deceptions.

Are they happy? Well, yes and no. We know they're happy about being published. We also know that many of them are unhappy about the price put on their books. We know many of them are unhappy about the quality of editing in their books. We know many of them are unhappy about the marketing of their books.

[FM St George]

wow...

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/2465.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/2465.htm)

so now not only is it a huge Conspiracy against PublishAmerica, but now we have veiled threats against those going to the "convention" from other authors...

oh, this is priceless...

:P

[emeraldcite]

lol. that link is already dead

[FM St George]

oh, my...

guess PA isn't ready to deal with a murder or assault charge yet...

:D

[DaveKuzminski]

Does removing the posting make them accessories or co-conspirators should anything happen? That posting could have provided a warning to potential victims. What they've done is eliminate evidence that could have protected them unless they've also taken the further steps of notifying each of those potential victims and the authorities.

Sooner or later, they're going to wise up that you can't just remove every posting you disagree with or that makes you look foolish.

[emeraldcite]

but they don't have a policy of removing posts...8)

[James D Macdonald]

Wow ... you got to be right on top of 'em! What did I miss?

Anyone have a copy?

[emeraldcite]

i want to know too, but it was off in less than an hour.

[Ed Williams 3]

...the suspense is just too much, plus, there is something both bizarrely fascinating and incredibly sad about the whole Publish America situation. I wish all of their authors well except the ones who are purposefully trying to mislead the others.

[FM St George]

I don't recall it exactly, but it entitled the opposition to PA as "Operation Doomsday" and noted that at the upcoming convention they'd be able to "face the spammers face-to-face" - something also about being unable to deal with reality and hiding behind aliases, yatta yatta yatta... daring them to write this yahoo and explaining themselves; the usual dry threats.

it really came across as a sort of "I know who's coming to the convention and writing on the other boards and I'm gonna out ya and we're gonna tar and feather ya in public!" type of post... I'm not surprised PA pulled it; it seemed to verge on announcing a public lynching...

wonder who the unlucky one is who's not only going to the convention and posting on other boards (gasp!) but actually has been "found out" by these fanatics???

:P

btw, anyone notice that HB Marcus has been absent for a few days? Seems that he dried up after his attempt to chastise the PA authors who posted elsewhere... wonder if his lawyer finally warned him of the potential of such comments...

[DaveKuzminski]

FM, check your Temporary directory cache on your computer. You could still have a copy of that topic there. If so, just drag it to a regular directory and it should become a text file. Then you can cut and paste from it.

[astonwest]

"btw, anyone notice that HB Marcus has been absent for a few days? Seems that he dried up after his attempt to chastise the PA authors who posted elsewhere... wonder if his lawyer finally warned him of the potential of such comments..."

Considering his comments were getting a great many of the regularly PA faithful to pipe up and tell him (and all the other board readers) that Mindsight wasn't really as bad as he was making it out to be, and that it actually held some good information (and here, I got banished for having a link to my website, where I held a link to Mindsight :-P), it may be that he had his chain yanked by his masters before he could continue the tirade, and drive more people to check it out...but one can only assume...

(One should also wonder whether PA has prevented further posting to that thread, as there hasn't been a comment for the last 3-4 days...one would think you'd get at least one newbie coming in, asking why they aren't allowed to go visit other writing boards... :-P No proof that's what happened of course, but it's been their MO in the past...)

[Dodgem James]

darby:
"I don't think anyone here is AGAINST the authors of PA."

That's not how I see it. Unless, of course, that author is disgruntled.

"I love the fact that anyone who says anything bad about PA is a "naysayer"."

I love the fact that Mr. Kuzminski doesn't match up to the criteria put forth to be a "real" author and yet he still claims he is. AND people believe it!

Dave:
"Well, gee, Dodgem James, you could counter those insults by releasing your sales numbers."

As soon as you release the name of the detective.

"Besides, I thought you came to this board to hang out with real writers. Now you don't want to talk about writing?"

I did come here to hang out with real writers. But you keep showing up!

And I wrote that I want to talk about writing, Dave. Sheesh! Once again you show how guilty you are of all the things you accuse me of.

emeraldcite:

"We won't throw him off. but of course, his position would be weakened by a place where he could actually be forced to preach to anyone but the believers. he probably won't be back to talk with us anytime soon."

He probably doesn't want to be publicly called a bigot. Sheesh, at least when Dave got called a pornographer PA authors stood up to defend him (as much as they don't like him). I think that says a lot about the people at PA compared to those here.

DJ

[Ed Williams 3]

It seems to me you make periodic forays on this board to basically put down most of those here. You also make assertions that run from very thought provoking to ridiculous. What's the point? Does Meiners pay you per each post, or what? And why the continued assault on Dave? Is it that Dave and P&E are making a serious dent in your master's pocketbook?

I do know one thing, your credibility is zilch - witness this line from one of your more recent posts:

"I've learned my lesson and I don't venture where I am not welcome.

DJ"

You are obviously not a man of your word.

[FM St George]

yep. like the other PA authors stood up to defend me or the other banned authors when we were slimed on the boards without any ability to defend or explain ourselves. Hell, PA still refused to remove the post slamming me and they hopped on the bandwagon. And they're now actively seeking out PA authors in a witch hunt which HB led until a few brave souls spoke out against him.

sorry, DJ - you're going to have to go a long way to somehow portray the PA authors there as somehow morally superior to the rest of us. They may be writing Christian books, but their attitude on the boards is anything but.

[DaveKuzminski]

Right now, I'd like to see that criteria. Either list it or give a reference link to it.

Whether you know it or not, some of my books come in two flavors: electronic and print. I didn't have to pay anyone to get my books published. Starting with my first book, I submitted until I found a legitimate royalty-paying publisher who liked what I offered. Most of my books have sold better than the majority of those put out by your current publisher. In fact, I actually have to worry about how much they've sold because it's tax time and taxes in the U.S. aren't automatically deducted from royalties. At least, not by my publishers. Consequently, I'll have to pay some additional taxes since I'm showing significant profits over my writing expenses.

By the way, my non-fiction successes date back to 1986 and I was paid quite well for those, too.

So, what's your criteria?

[FM St George]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9170.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9170.htm)

wow... wonder if PA's gonna lift my ban 'cause what I've been saying for months is true...

*chuckles*

wonder how long this is gonna exist...

let me c/p for ya in case it gets nuked:


*************
Shortie



2/22/2004
08:20:02
Subject: Turn negative into positive


Message:
Getting our books onto brick-and-mortar bookstore shelves is a problem we are all aware of here on the MB. It is an issue each author is going to have to deal with one way or another, sooner or later.

While at the Kiwanis on Friday this issue was brought to my attention several times by people who came up to me and said they had tried to buy my book but could not find it. One man said he was told at Walden's that they were "out" of the book. A woman said the same about a Barnes and Nobles store.

Now you and I know that my book may - or may not - have been stocked by those stores. I made no mention of that when responding to these people. Why bring up a negative????

I simply told them that I was so sorry to hear that but my book was very popular and that the book stores were having a problem keeping it in stock.

I told them the absolute truth when I told them that the book store in Tifton kept running out and would have to wait some two weeks to get an order in -- and that I had been supplying the local store with books while they waited on their order to come in.

I think I put a positive spin on a negative. Politicians do it all the time. Why not me?

How are you handling this situation?

Shortie

cora morace

2/22/2004
09:47:12


RE: Turn negative into positive


Message:
Shortie,

Kudos again with your success with the Kiwanis.
You're lucky that the bookstore said that they were out of the book, which by the way, is the smarter thing for them to say. Recently an acquaintance of mine went to three bookstores in our locale and asked for COCODRIE. The first looked it up and said "Oh, we don't stock those kinds of books, and proceeded to offer her an alternative - a Mississippi cookbook!!?? The second said it wasn't available to them, and the third suggested that she try the first store.
I had approached all three of these stores about stocking my books - I had offered to help them with copies until theirs could be obtained....one of the clerks said they had a couple other requests for it that week, too, but their store policy didn't allow them to stock it. NOT A ONE OFFERED TO SPECIAL ORDER IT! These were "chain" type bookstores, the two independents in our area both ordered copies and I have signings with both scheduled. But these others have gone out of their way, in my estimation, to make my book sound like it lacks worth and I am just proud and stubborn enough to hope that they will someday regret it.
Had to get that off my chest.
CJ

priceless1

2/22/2004
10:05:53


RE: Turn negative into positive


Message:
Face it, without a return policy, a lot of bookstores look the other way. Compound that with their snob factor, and we must work ten times harder to get our books into the hands of readers.

Lynn

eighter marx

2/22/2004
11:07:17


RE: Turn negative into positive


Message:
The stores B&M and Waldenbooks want to carry my book but it is against their policy.

B&M will not let a PA book be shipped to their warehouse but they can have it shipped to a house.

Waldenbooks will not order a POD. If someone has proof of this being wrong, please contact Waldenbooks in Sawmill Square in Laurel, MS.

I have had requests from B&M to come for a book signings in other towns.

I tell them....."YOu get the books first and I'll be glad to come." Every time I planned something it got cancalled because they couldn't get books.

It is against their policy to buy from the author or let the author bring their own books.

I tell people who try to buy it in the books stores the truth. I tried. I also tell them that if they know the author personally why fool with a book store.

I have even written to the boards of the chains, begging and offering to buy books back------- with no luck.

I hired someone yesterday to contact all the independent stores in Alabama and Mississippi.

If that goes well, I will add a state or two at a time. I plan to visit all of the independent stores after the contact, plus all the libraries along the way. I could have included the chains, but knew it would be a waste of money.

I chose Alabama first so I can show them Joyce's book, True Blue Forever along with mine.

In my ads, I say order an autograhed copy from the author or online. I add a copy of the PA order form that they sent out to your friends for the ones who don't have a computer. I have removed "ask you local book store" from my cards and my ads.

BTW, my goal is to stay close to Shortie on the PA best seller's list. I'm now 49 and I'm delighted to see she moved up.

My motto is "IF you kiss enough frogs, one day you'll find a prince." But, so far nothing but warts from the chains so I gave up on them.

Molly Marx Brent
There Ain't Enough Front Porches



eighter marx

2/22/2004
11:17:04


RE: Turn negative into positive


Message:
That should be BAM...... I screw up a lot. Please excuse my mistakes.

Molly

Shortie

2/22/2004
11:51:34


RE: Turn negative into positive


Message:
CJ,
I think you are right. I was very lucky the bookstore manager told the customer they were out of stock. He/she could just have easily said something else.

Molly,
I agree with you. I am not interested in butting my head into a brick wall. I will try to make inroads where I can and let the rest ride. BTW, I will have to check BAM. Amazon is the only one I ever check; just habit.

Lynn,
You would be a good one to address this issue at the PA convention methinks. How 'bout it?

Everyone,
It just KILLS me that there are people who are trying so hard to get my book but can't. A while back a man told me he drove all the way to Albany (45 miles) because he was sure he could get it at the bookstore in the mall there. No luck. It is just a bummer. A real bummer.

Doesn't it make you wonder what our sales could look like if there was a return policy??

Shortie

priceless1

2/22/2004
18:36:46


RE: Turn negative into positive


Message:
"Lynn,
You would be a good one to address this issue at the PA convention methinks. How 'bout it?"

Shortie, you're talking Lynn Barry, right?

Lynn <the other Lynn who is a chicken>

***********

oh, to be a fly on the wall if this ever comes up at the convention this weekend... I somehow doubt it; or the PA staff will somehow deny it's happening or put some spin on it that it's a Good Thing that no decent bookstore will carry your books, yatta yatta yatta...

:)

[Dancre]

Ya know, it really is sad. these folks don't realize that Denial isn't a river in Egypt. they just can't get it that if the car is broke, get a new one. dump PA, find a real publisher and build a career. sad, very sad. :o
kim

[emeraldcite]

these folks don't realize that Denial isn't a river in Egypt

lol...i like that.

[dgkgoldberg]

Okay, many Publish America folk spent around 300 dollars plus transportation costs plus the cost of two nights or three in a hotel to go to a convention to hear about Publish America and hear about writing and promotion from other Publish America people.


That's fine if they view it as just a nice thing to do recreationally.

I do hope they do not see it as something that will advance a career.

[Ed Williams 3]

...for PA, they probably are getting a cut of the motel take, plus the $300 or so is pure profit. Hey, they have already shown mega willingness to profiteer off their authors, so this conference should surprise no one. Wonder if anyone there had the guts to ask about their no returns policy, the pricing of their books, or the banning of certain authors who ask legitimate questions off their bulletin boards?

(Oh - interestingly enough, PA now has an author named Ed Williams. I'm sure it is just coincidence, as it is a very common name, but with these guys I will always wonder just a tad in the back of my mind....) :rollin

[HapiSofi]

Dodgy James, Dave Kuzminski has been a good guy and a benefactor to the writing community for years and years.

Who the hell are you?

Please explain particulars soonest.

[FM St George]

I'd hope that they would be asking the "tough" questions about return policies, etc. - but I think the majority of them probably got drunk and was overwhelmed by the free coffee mug and mousepad that PA gave them on arrival...

the problem would be that the group mentality would take over; decrying and denouncing anyone who would say anything negative about the most generous publisher in the world... after cashing the checks for the "convention" and running for the door.

I mean, a few seminars by PA authors; a trip to Gettysburg and a book signing in a local mall? That's not exactly overwhelming me now, and much less when I read the original invitation. Give me something a bit more solid and something a little better than table scraps and I'll consider it... as it stands now I'd rather pay for a local conference with REAL writers from REAL publishers with REAL experience; not PA authors reading out of their own guidebooks on how to harass family and friends and store managers.

I'll wait for the postings, but I doubt anything controversial got asked and if it did it was shouted down or shuffled under the table by the PA personnel offering the usual mantra of "Us good, Them bad!"

jmo, ymmv.

[sfsassenach]

writer attended. The thread about his book is hilarious.

[DaveKuzminski]

This post at www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/2562.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/2562.htm) was interesting.

I just wish the authors would recognize that we're not against them or their books. Our complaints have to do only with the poor business practices of their publisher. I want to see them given fair deals through fair contracts or negotiation. I want to see some of them become well known because they put the effort into their books. I don't want to see them short-changed by a publisher that overcharges and forces its authors to do all the work the publisher should do as a responsible business partner to get their product out into the marketplace.

[FM St George]

I just got my royalty check from PA. I was truly not expecting to get anything due to the way they've treated me.

just over seven dollars.

LMAO!

more so 'cause someone bought two copies at the $12.95 price (but not off of Amazon.com so I dunna know where they got them...) and some store (I assume) bought ten copies at the 40% off...

so for 12 copies I received just over seven dollars.

excuse me while I call the hubby and announce he can quit his day job...

:D

funnier thing is - I've done no promotion since they turfed me in November, so a lot of this must be just good vibes coming back home... I don't know whether to laugh or cry; all I DO know is that I've probably made more than those PA authors spending hundreds on promotion....

*falls back laughing again*

[emeraldcite]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/2507.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/2507.htm)

did anybody else check out the pictures? is that their real office?

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9222.htm" target="_new">Another fun thread.</a> (Read it quick before it's deleted.)

Hey, we're famous!

And ... for all the PA authors. Come here, ask your questions. You'll get honest, accurate answers.

[DaveKuzminski]

Shows how little they understand about viruses and spoofing. Here's their thread just for posterity purposes since they're blaming us:

Brenweb



2/28/2004
15:11:42
Subject: Suspicious email virus


Message:
I just received this email from staff@books&writers.com with "hi" in the subject line. The body says "you're a bad writer."

My NAV warned of an attachment infected with a virus. Beware!

Brenda
publishedauthors.net/BrendaMWeber (http://publishedauthors.net/BrendaMWeber)

RLBall

2/29/2004
09:35:05
Hanging onto the Cow's Foot
RE: Suspicious email virus


Message:
I got one of those also, Brenda.

Richard L. Ball
www.richardlball.com (http://www.richardlball.com)

marti2003

2/29/2004
11:45:12
RE: Suspicious email virus


Message:

THEY'RE BAAAAAAAAK!

Man, their writing must really suck if they have to go to such measures to knock us out of the competition.

When I posted the article "Organized assault on an American Publisher," I got a lot of hits from a message board called "Absolute Write." Can't draw any positive conclusions from it, but when I went there, they had thread after thread trashing PA. What a waste of time and energy. I feel sorry for them.

But now, of course, they are getting destructive and breaking the law.

Next time someone gets one, contact Microsoft or Norton anti-virsus, k? They know how to track those people down. In fact, one such copycat worm emailer is going to trial soon here in Seattle.

Check it out under
"Blaster Worm 'copycat' Trial"
Trial News
www.geocities.com/martitalbott/

[FM St George]

well, given that the same person took a supporter over at writers.net and blasted him into oblivion, I'm not surprised...

do these people even understand what a computer does?

:D

still waiting to hear about the big convention and how many books were actually sold... probably a lot of "trading" for "reviews"; but probably not a lot....

betcha they missed the NYT article as well.

:D

************

just an add-on - www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/2567.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/2567.htm)

seems the average sale was only 2-4 books after all the hype and hoopla... even if PA gave them 10 "free" (put into the cost of the convention, I assume)...

nothing more than an average outing, tho I think more money was spent on booze than anything else - what a bunch of lushes!

:D

[XThe NavigatorX]

re: the stoker nod for Lisa Wood. I haven't read her book, but I've read a few of her shorter stuff, and she's a very talented writer. I suspect, however, that the fine folks over at the HWA will see her publisher and not even bother reading her book. You think the people here are biased... Man, you should hear certain HWA members rant about POD.

Also, people keep talking about world records and such for the PA weekend booksigning, which had 150+ authors signing. That's pretty big, but it's nothing compared to most book festivals. The Arizona Book fest which I'll be attending in April will have over 200 authors signing/selling easy. And some of those BIG conventions gotta have twice as many as that.

[Dragon Chow]

Here's the official announcement (http://www.horror.org/stokerballots.htm) from HWA's web site. Lisa Wood's book is in the "First Novel" category, so she won't be competing against Stephen King. ;)

Well, I don't like PA, but I have nothing against their authors, so I wish her the best of luck. :)

DC

[dgkgoldberg]

The HWA is an organization that advocates for professional writers. Part of that stance is a belief that writers should be paid fairly for their labor.

Many people who are members of HWA and I am one of them have been burned in deals with POD publishers. Some people feel like it is a valuable thing to warn others.

Never once on the HWA message boards or at a live meeting have I heard anyone make judgements about the quality of some one's writing because that writer made a bad business decision.

I think many HWA members will take advantage of Ms Wood's offer to check out a PDF of her book, or will look at the on line sample she has posted. She's up against some very stiff competition and having taken my voting responsiblity seriously and checked out all the folks recommended in that category I really doubt that she will make it to the final ballot. Not because of bias against her for choosing PA but for what is the horror, to me of PA, the idea of premature publication. With proper seasoning this very talented insightful woman could be a very good writer. But, she published without editing and without the lessons learned from an edit. The competition seems to have produced some work that is way ahead of her.

I've seen quite a bit of a pre-emptive strike on a few message boards and I find it a bit off putting, if this talented newcomer does not get on the final ballot, I believe that it is because other talented newcomers were a tad more patient, maybe their first published novel was not their first novel, and maybe the work I have read of their's was edited.

Many many HWA members are pretty supportive of POD and self-publishing, in fact it is a constant topic on the message boards of that organization.

Any belief that Ms Wood might not make the final ballot because of a bias against POD demonstrates a lack of knowledge of HWA.

[dgkgoldberg]

The way she got "the stoker nod" as you put it is that members of the organization recomended her work.

That's how her work got on the preliminary ballot.
People in that organization that you are saying would not consider her work because it was published with a particular company recommended it. That's the only way things get to the preliminary ballot.

[James D Macdonald]

The reason certain members of HWA rant about PoD is because they've had first-hand experience with PoD.

[Ed Williams 3]

I kid y'all not, I was reading another board, and one of the PA authors in attendance at their recent convention stated that there were armed guards there, she asked one of them why, and was told it was to insure that there would be no problems. Amazing....

[FM St George]

that cracked me up when I read it as well... the only reason to have thugs there (who, btw, cost PA about twenty bucks an hour - my old industry) would be if they figured there'd be angry peeps there either drunk or who asked the "tough" questions... like, any of us...

it's sad and funny at the same time - they also ran out of food (!) and someone pulled the fire alarm to get them out of the hotel before they got too upset over the lack of food....

I've been to kids' birthday parties that were better run, by the sound of it.

:P

[DaveKuzminski]

What forum and topic were you at? I'd like to read what was stated.

[James D Macdonald]

Oh, for pity's sake! Rent-a-cops and a fire alarm? Any number of conventions I've been to have had both, and more, and worse besides.

[emeraldcite]

when you accept almost anything, you have to be careful who might show up. I'd want armed guards too, just in case.

[emeraldcite]

here's some more philosophy of the dollar:

www.publishamerica.com/cg...s/1034.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/newauthors/1034.htm)

apparently, it's a transcendental experience. too bad i'm missing it. wait, wait! i got paid more for my short story in an online magazine than they did for their novel. now, i don't feel so bad.

my favorite by far:

The dollar establishes the fact that PA is a traditional publisher and that PA is paying you for the right to publish your book.

all of this on another plane of existence, of course...

[dgkgoldberg]

I personally enjoyed this bit of complete anti-Semetic filth on the same thread:

It is suitable for framing when you get it but it is just that moment of excitement when you get it in the mail. It may be a 'good luck' charm too like someone told me many years ago that the Jews always framed their first dollar they made on a sale for good luck.

And before anyone jumps me because she did not know it was feeding into and part of a lengthy history of absolute hate that ended up with death camps spread across Europe, I do not care, racism, anti-Semetism, and homophobia are not defended by aww I did not know.

That particular urban legend is part and parcel of a whole bunch of hatred.

[Ed Williams 3]

...to the armed guards at the PA Convention:

www.mindsightseries.com/d...1078387652 (http://www.mindsightseries.com/discus/messages/6/3100.html?1078387652)

[FM St George]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9270.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9270.htm)

so the $100 is going all for publicity, really... the woman's not going to make a dime off of it...

may I be the first to offer these authors a chance to buy the Brooklyn Bridge? If they're buying this one...

:P

and then they have to bring their own books, to boot!

*shakes head*

[vstrauss]

>> I personally enjoyed this bit of complete anti-Semetic filth on the same thread:<<

I saw this too. After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I wondered if it was naive of me to be surprised that this kind of ignorance still exists.

- Victoria

[dgkgoldberg]

What I find more appalling is that no one on the PA board called her on it.

[darbyj]

...and the post was pulled?

Lisa

[FM St George]

still there right now...

no one there has two brain cells to rub together, anyway - here they are, treating a buck as if it were the Holy Grail and bragging about how it "brought them all together" while they use their royalty checks to buy a pair of hamburgers at McDonalds..

it's a good mental dupe - heck, why would you worry about MONEY when you really write for the FUN of it and look at all the great FRIENDS you can have if you just BUY your own books and SPEND money you don't have...

truly, a cult.

as for the Jewish comment - can't say that I'm surprised - from the majority of posts it seems that most PA authors are budding fodder for a Foxworthy "You just might be a Redneck" jokes...

jmo, ymmv...

[FM St George]

well, here's HB the bully beating down a new author who seems to have had gotten a clue...

www.publishamerica.com/cg...al/697.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/697.htm)

and here's a sad one - this woman's been spending money hand over fist to promote her book and she finally woke up...

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9234.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9234.htm)

I'm willing to bet that when she realised that the majority of her royalties were less than a dollar a book... well, you can't afford to pay a publicist and keep on giving away free copies. Sad thing is that she seems to really love her book and her writing - I hope this doesn't break her spirit in the end.

as usual, jmo, ymmv...

[James D Macdonald]

Sad thing is that she seems to really love her book and her writing...

All authors love their books and their writing. That's what PA's banking on -- authors believing that if only they read them everyone else would love their books too. Authors will sell their books by any means necessary. To family, to friends, by setting up card tables down at the Laundromat ... whatever it takes. Authors love their books.

And PA knows that authors are able to move, on average, 75 copies of their books. PA's added $5 to the common market price of those books. That's what comes of being a "publisher" rather than a printer. So, on average, PA's authors pay a $375 vanity press fee. It's just they pay it on the back side, as part of the cover price, not up front.

(It doesn't matter if you don't sell your 75 copies. Some other eager beaver will sell 150 to make up for it. By dint of hiring a publicist, buying ads, giving away copies ... all while the PA bosses count their money.)

Remember, those books are usually being bought by the authors themselves. PA doesn't care if the authors are able to unload them. (At group book signings? I ask you! Selling two or three in a day. Boy, that's a cost-effective way to spend your Saturday afternoon!)

[DaveKuzminski]

Here is one topic from above that deserves to be preserved:

eighter marx



3/01/2004
14:27:48
Subject: sale on books


Message:
PA, I know author support does not get advance notice of your sales to authors.

I ordered 251 on the first one and ordered 51 more
on the last sale.

I put books back to save for events already planned but now running out again.

I am holding off to order until I can get the same deal I got on the 251. Any idea when that will be?

I do give a lot away to libraries, papers etc so I need the big discount and no shipping.

Molly Marx Brent
There Ain't Enough Front Porches

Renee Bagley

3/04/2004
16:12:36


RE: sale on books


Message:
Just thought I'd bring this back to the top!

Infocenter, are you there? :)



Renee

jimarh

3/04/2004
16:17:03


RE: sale on books


Message:
I would like to know, too. I am running low and would like to order some soon but hope there is another discount offered before I do...

allen

3/04/2004
17:16:25

Nudists Among Us
www.authorsden.com/allenparker

RE: sale on books


Message:
Y'all have this all wrong. Try this.

Hey Info Center, I have tons of books. I have books coming out of my ears. They aren't selling. You should really dump about 251 of those for half price. I might be persuaded to take them off of your hands. That i if you throw in shipping and pay royalties on them.

Just a thought... Allen

jimarh

3/04/2004
23:20:50


RE: sale on books


Message:
you are always thinking, aren't you Allen?

eighter marx

3/04/2004
23:43:05


RE: sale on books


Message:
They called. When I said I'd order 251 for the 55% and no shipping as I did the first time, she said she'd check and call back but no call back.

After seeing my royalty check, I am no longer interested.

I am also not paying for any more ads, PR firms etc.

Molly Marx Brent
There Ain't Enough Front Porches

[DaveKuzminski]

YianniPalos



3/04/2004
13:48:40
Subject: So, We Are Published. Now what?


Message:
All right! So we are published. Now what?
Without a distributer our books will remain as Print On Demand (POD) books for seven years, unless we, all of us, PA authors do something about it.
Let’s have a Brainstorm, make suggestions, bring our ideas up front, let’s form a PA Authors Book Club, and write to Coen book distributers, or Ingram Book Co., or Bookzine, . . . and so on, as a single voice. I have tried to sell my book to Borders. Although they agreed to put it on the shelves at Borders throughout the USA, they declined to do as such because:
*Marketing and Promotion – Book does not appear to be supported via advertising, marketing or promotion.
So, what the heck we are going to do about it?
I’ll be very glad to add another page at my website, sort of like a second guestbook about this matter. We have some good books out there waiting to be sold not only to our friends and relatives, but also to the mass market; the readers.
Let me know, either here or at www.yiannipalos.com or e-mail: yiannipalos@istal.com
Let’s us escape this sad and discouraging POD status.

argilestox

3/04/2004
14:34:49
RE: So, We Are Published. Now what?


Message:
Dear Yianni,

My book "Computer - End Program is now in the process of editing by P/A. I have had numerous discussions with friends and family about marketing it - when it is finally published. Having worked in retail for over thirty years - I live by three rules:

1. The first one who talks loses
2. AFTO (Ask For The Order)
3. Location, Location, Location

1. When talking to managers of bookstores, I suggest that you let them "spill their guts" about experiences regarding past sales of subject matter they have had on their shelves from Authors published by P/A. Listen very carefully to their comments. Keep quiet, and let them "vomit" all over you. A "pause" does not mean that they are finished. When the pause is long enough - refer to Rule #2 -

2. Even if the manager is not an avid reader, give them a "sample copy" of your book - to take home and read. I have found that individuals who are familiar with a product - tend to "Hawk" it to others. Check back with them on a weekly basis to see if they enjoyed your book. Then - AFTO. Once you have been a familiar face in the store, and have "built a friendship," the manager will be more receptive to your requests.

3. Visit your local Airport News Stands that sell paperbacks. Find out who the manager is or who decides what paperbacks are stocked on their shelves. See if you can have a "face to face" with the "Decision Maker." Again, give a copy of your book to read - and to the "Counter People." Travelers are always asking "What is a good book to read." Chances are, that this store is one of many, that are located in Airports throughout the country. That Airport News Stand - maybe the "Gateway" to others...

I hope my comments have given you something to think about.

Sincerely,
Argile Stox



HBMarcus

3/04/2004
14:40:12

H. B. Marcus
CRISPY
The Joe Schmoe Show
RE: So, We Are Published. Now what?


Message:
"...sad and discouraging.."??? For shame!
I admire your enthusiasm...until I see a statement like that. This is a forum with a firm foundation in marketing ideas and promotional suggestions. One of which is multi-author signings. That gives you an edge because authors from other publishers rarely do it due to ego problems.

Let's take this a step at a time. Are you in all the local libraries in your area? Snap to it! Have you talked to anyone other than the idiot sheep at Borders? Warm up that dialing finger. Have you offered a multi-author signing to a book store in your area and posted a notice here? That gives the public variety, which translates to volume at your signings, which translates to book sales.

Let's look at the national scene, shall we? You aren't part of a traditional POD. This is the fastest growing publisher there is anywhere. You got in on the ground floor. Lucky you. What's that mean? Well, I see seven years in which you can establish yourself on the map where the traditional publishers would give you two minutes to shoot or dribble. That's the difference between real recognition and pipe dreams.

Keep that fire and get yourself out there. Grab the impulse buyers with a yarn and they will tell friends about a good book they read. Get five-hundred out there and PA could review you for distribution through Independence. That's Walden's bookstore nationwide. Liking this 'status' a little better yet?

How about this? If you went with anyone else you wouldn't ever be able to establish a fan base and get your name out there. If you live in Texas and don't promote in Wyoming, your books will be pulled for not selling nationwide. PA gives you SEVEN YEARS to make yourself known. That's quite a bit more realistic, don't you think?

So watch this board as it is a wealth of ideas and strategies. Organize a group signing together. All it takes is posting a notice on the board. If you want to drag me kicking and screaming to the top, I can't have a problem with that. Let's go.

Yianni Palos

3/04/2004
15:23:46


RE: So, We Are Published. Now what?


Message:
I will not disagree or even argue with your comments. Don’t you think that have tried all your suggestions? And let me ask you: Do I not sign a book that I’ve purchased from PA? I am signing a book that is not at the bookstore. Do you see the difference? Sale, Yes. Recognition, Zero.
Public Libraries, State Libraries, High School libraries, University Libraries, FSU Filmschool . . .
I distributed to them, more than sixty copies of my book to be reviewed for acquisition.
By the way, I owned two businesses from 1974 through 1996, and I know something about the politics of advertising and selling yourself.
I just thought that I had an idea. Obviously, according to what I’ve read so far, I must say, I was wrong posting my message. Sorry!
Yianni

shadowfax

3/04/2004
15:32:31
RE: So, We Are Published. Now what?


Message:
Love the possitive attitude, HB! Thanks for all the good advice.
What did you mean "Get five-hundred out there and PA could review you for distribution through Independence"? That we sell 500 of our books and we have proven there is a market for our book - which would qualify us for distribution through Independence?

Thanks,
Lillian

allen

3/04/2004
15:34:08

Nudists Among Us
www.authorsden.com/allenparker

RE: So, We Are Published. Now what?


Message:
Yiani, I think that you missed the point. Don't give up! each time someone says no, ask three more times.

HB is pretty good at hawking ideas, and seeing them realized. He worked out a multiple author deal, a pretty tough thing to do. I tried the same thing and got a NO the first time. I am going to try again.

We can learn from each other. You have a great idea, but if you look through this message board posts, you will find a wealth of knowledge that has come from many great experienced authors.

If you have a great idea, share it with us.

Just a thought... Allen

Yianni Palos

3/04/2004
16:12:13


RE: So, We Are Published. Now what?


Message:
I am not here to criticize PA. They’ ve done what they'd promised to do. And, I respect them for that.
Yianni

HBMarcus

3/05/2004
08:30:10

H. B. Marcus
CRISPY
The Joe Schmoe Show
RE: So, We Are Published. Now what?


Message:
Well, if you have an idea, lay it out here. Give us some details. Don't throw up your hands and say nevermind so quickly. You come off as insulted for even trying to answer your question. I just figured there were some things you didn't know already since you didn't know that Ingrams carries your book already.

skyrocket

3/05/2004
10:19:31


RE: So, We Are Published. Now what?


Message:
After reading these posts...I am going to get in bed and pull the covers over my head!!!...Call me for dinner!!!...Sky

Scribner

3/05/2004
11:08:49
RE: So, We Are Published. Now what?


Message:
The Librarys in Las Vegas, NV are having a Reading
festival on April 3, 2004. Both famous Authors and
Authors just starting out, like myself will be there. Author Ridley Pearson will be there. The Library will have signing tables for all Authors
along with a box lunch.

Woodrow Walker Author of
"Murder at Columbia"

FYI:
What: Reading Festival
When: Saturday, April 3, 2004
Time: 12 Noon to 4pm
Where: Rainbow Library Amphitheater
Who: Johnette Morales - (702)507-3830
e-mail: moralesm@lvccld.org

[Sonetka]

Been lurking on these threads for a while, and I have to say that to be honest, HBMarcus scares me quite a bit more than the lady who made the "Jewish" comment...she probably just doesn't know better, but as for him....eep.

[RealityChuck]

Here's a PA thread discussing how many books they sold at their convention (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9259.htm).

Top number: 18

Most didn't make double figures, though.

[James D Macdonald]

First, a general note:

We've seen the commentary from the folks who've tried to get B&N to stock their books, with the letters from B&N saying that they'd prefer not to. The authors respond to this by saying that clearly B&N never read their books. This is an extension of the If They Only Read It They'd Love It fallacy.

The argument goes like this:

1) If B&N read my book they'd love it.
2) They don't love my book.
3) Therefore, they never read it.

<HR>

Dave, I'm really uncomfortable with the copyright aspects of reposting entire PA threads.

<HR>

That being said, let me comment on some parts of HB's post:


One of which is multi-author signings. That gives you an edge because authors from other publishers rarely do it due to ego problems.

Ego problems? It's been a whole three weeks since my last multiple-author booksigning.

If all your sales come from booksignings, sure, doing them is something you can try. Still, you need to look at signings in a purely practical way. Are you pulling in more money than you're spending? The way the Ohio Booksigning went, the one HB organized, he and his pals would have gotten more books into the hands of more readers, at a lower cost to themselves, by putting a five-dollar bill inside each copy and leaving a stack by the mall entrance with a sign that said "Free books! Take one!"

The "ego" is HB's. He wants to feel like a published author, so he sets up signings. During those hours he spends behind the table he feels like an author, because that's how he imagines published authors spend their time.

Are you in all the local libraries in your area? Snap to it!

The fact that PA books aren't cataloged by the Library of Congress makes this more difficult than is should be. The fact that PA books aren't reviewed in Library Journal or Publishers Weekly makes it more difficult than it should be. I've heard reports of libraries that wouldn't take PA books as a gift. Even so, even if you do somehow manage to convince your local library to accept your book, that's just your local library. That doesn't do you a bit of good the next town over or the next state over.

Get five-hundred out there and PA could review you for distribution through Independence.

Which gets you sort-of where traditionally published authors start. Except it's only through Waldens, there are maximum and minimum orders, the returnability has a time limit, the books have to be paid for up front ... in other words your book still has two strikes against it and a curve headed for the plate. Plus, there's no guarantee you'll get the deal, only that PA will "review" your book. How many of the (now seven thousand) happy PA authors have gotten the Independence imprint? How many have sold (or bought themselves) five hundred copies? That is, among the people who have paid PA a $5*500=$2,500 vanity publishing fee.

If you went with anyone else you wouldn't ever be able to establish a fan base and get your name out there. If you live in Texas and don't promote in Wyoming, your books will be pulled for not selling nationwide.

The sheer, appalling, breathtaking ignorance of this statement renders me speechless. The fact that thousands upon thousands of authors have already done what HB states they "wouldn't ever be able to" do appears to have escaped him. Just walking through any bookstore should convince anyone capable of rational thought that what he says can't possibly be true.

I'd really, really like to ask HB how many total copies of his books he's sold, and at what dollar expense to him each sale came.

[DaveKuzminski]

If I'm wrong, those can be deleted. However, I believe the content is pertinent to understanding the ongoing discussion here. I also believe that those constitute evidence that might disappear from the public record if those are not preserved away from that particular forum where information regularly disappears because it is critical of their image and operations.

[FM St George]

I don't think HB is a bad fellow, I just think he's a bully when he's on the PA boards - if you dare to mention anything negative, it's turned around to be YOUR fault; that you've somehow dropped the ball and that PA is blameless in anything and everything...

I daresay his expensive hobby is going to end at some point when he just can't afford to keep giving away his books... he states in another post that he's now selling more of his first book than his second, and he's been promoting the second more than the first... which sounds to me like he's saturated his market of family and friends (and local harassed bookstore managers) and is topping out...

I just wish he wouldn't be such a bully on the boards - PA can hire their own thugs; they don't need him.

jmo, ymmv.

[DaveKuzminski]

Well, PA might have deleted one of those two, but we have it here. Furthermore, I think it's right that we copy some of those topics in order to provide important information to writers considering who to submit their work to. So, there's an educational aspect as well.

By the way, Jenna, if PA or any of their goons threaten you, you can counter that this forum is a public service for writers and as such it has a right to provide such information. That's the reply I give to the few such threats I've received over at P&E and not one lawsuit has ever occurred. That's probably because their attorneys told them I was right. That's because I got my information from an attorney.

[James D Macdonald]

I think that HB has an awful lot of ego invested in How Clever He Was to go with PA.

But perhaps I'm getting into Take It Outside territory?

[FM St George]

it's funny... they delete the topic where someone is asking for advice and gets beaten down by the local bully, but leave up (for the time being) the post where an author who's put a lot of heart, soul and money into her book announces that she's not interested in buying anymore nor paying outside publicists to push it...

I'd love to know what those webmasters smoke....

:)

and ooh... another rebel!

www.publishamerica.com/cg...al/704.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/704.htm)


3/05/2004
13:50:44
Subject: Freedom of Speech!


Message:
Freedom of Speech?
I though I could communicate with Publish America authors not only for a light chitchat, but also for serious matters. Well! I guess discussing serious matters at “Writing Discussion - General” is not a place to exercise the Freedom of Speech.
Yesterday I posted a message: So, You are published. Now what?
To my surprise, today I fount out that my posted message has been removed.
Well! So much about The Freedom of Speech.
Yianni

we should start a pool on this one... I say, three hours?

next?

:D

[RealityChuck]

It's quite clear that PA authors think the purpose of the PA message board is to be relentless positive, even in the fact of reality.

HB Marcus seems to have appointed himself as PA's Happiness Patrol. (http://www.drwhoguide.com/who_7l.htm) If someone becomes negative, he sentences them to hang from the neck until they cheer up.

[astonwest]

"I'd really, really like to ask HB how many total copies of his books he's sold, and at what dollar expense to him each sale came."

Considering he's not part of the Independence Books imprint, we can say for certain he's never reached the 500 mark...other than that, I don't forsee him telling folks publicly...it's a lot harder to debate how well your 'technique' works when the facts speak for themselves...

FM, it will remain (now that everyone has come in and chastised the other author for having such a "combative attitude" on such a "positive forum" (yes, almost shot milk out of my nose too)), until someone comes in and makes logical arguments to the detriment of PA...

"So go ahead and spew crap that isn't helpful to your publisher on a public board. See what that does since your spews have already been pulled once."

Oops, HB confirming the fact that posts get pulled by PA? How can that be? ;-P

Oh well...it's always good for a laugh...

"One of my post was pulled the other day and I'm not freaking out about it. People started to say things that was not in PA's best interest. After all, it's their website, message board and they have the right to remove whatever they choose."

And how about policing other boards (and websites), and removing authors permission to post based on what they see there?? Odd...

"We are all in the same PA boat, like it or not.
I'm just happy to have a book published and I'm looking forward to many more. In that regard we all owe PA gratitude. What you do with your book after it is published is up to you. We all knew that when we signed."

I'm looking forward to many more books published as well...just not with PA...I'm grateful they were willing to publish my first book, but after I came to realize there was little to no acceptance criteria involved, that gratefulness was severely reduced...and is almost non-existent at this point...

Yes, most PA authors know the future of your book is in their own hands, in the form of promotion and such...however, with so many roadblocks and barricades set up by the publisher themselves (in the form of poor editing, high prices, and such), it's hard to fathom the attitudes of the believers...

As I mentioned, good for a laugh...

Big Daddy West
:hat

[Ed Williams 3]

...is that he spews it to some PA authors who just don't know any better. I find it incredibly ironic that someone who has never been traditionally published yacks so often about it. It's also interesting to note that a search on Amazon yields the fact that his books are hardly hot sellers, even evaluated by PA standards. Bottom line, I think HB totes the party line for PA because he is terrified that his status as a "published author" will be in jeopardy if he doesn't.

This whole situation is so sad, because I am sure PA has some excellent writers whose books will never sell beyond close family and friends, and that's where I fault a clown like HB. He deliberately misleads others to go down the same path he did, only in his case there is no alternative. Then, they are stuck there with him, and his endless drivel about "multi-author signings," "being in on the ground floor," and the like. He must feel he has to bully people, because the biggest fear bullies ever have is that their subjects investigate and find out the facts for themselves. HB has only one option, PA, and what he does to others there makes him both a clown and a loser in my book.

[DaveKuzminski]

HB should be held legally accountable for what he states in that forum to those other writers. There is no "ground floor" for any writer to get in on because an author with PublishAmerica will receive royalties based solely upon how well that author's books sold and not on how well the publisher does overall. The publisher isn't sharing its profits. Ergo, a writer who signs with PublishAmerica at the beginning has no more standing than does an author who signs on the following year or two years later. Consequently, HB is spouting nonsense and is deliberately misleading others.

[LiamJackson]

Dave, I've been approached, in a friendly fashion, by a couple of PA authors, both of whom encouraged me to submit my novel to PA. Oddly, they both used the phrase "get in on the ground floor."

When I replied that, under PA's current structure, the "ground floor" was the ONLY floor, I was immediately corrected. Apparently, there's some sense that once PA reaches a certain financial plateau, they'll morph into a 'traditional publishing house' and start writing those big, fat advance checks.

I've no way of knowing if PA actually promotes this mindset, however, if they do....

[dgkgoldberg]

HB's diatribe against the poster who had a question about what to do next was a good techinique.

The idea that you got in and now you want to be negative and shut the door on other writers, and the suggestion that someone who has tried for decades to be published could choose not to submit to PA because of a negative tone presented as horrid things are very good brainwashing techniques.

There's no discourse. HB's answer to everything is that anyone who has a question or a different point of view is a pathetic loser is evident.

I think he might not be all that good a person.

[Sonetka]

HB seems to be ...I looked up his website out of curiosity, and it's, well, something else.

BTW, on a slightly irrelevant note, what is PublishAmerica doing in Iceland? It's a fascinating country, but I wouldn't think they would have much fodder for the publishing industry, unless perhaps their fraud laws are unusually lax.

[astonwest]

If we're taking bets on posts getting pulled and/or authors getting banned...

"I read Yianni's first post and I didn't think it was negative. They were questions/concerns. Maybe they weren't posted the way some people like, but they were Yianni posting valid questions and concerns. If someone has an issue or a problem why can't they post it here and not get nailed? I've read posts where someone goes on and on about another person and yet that post remains. Is that positive?? No.

No business is 100% positive. Every business has some problems. It's the brave that bring the problems to the forefront. If they do it in a way that upsets the applecart.... maybe the applecart needs to be fixed."

www.publishamerica.com/cg...al/704.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/704.htm)

Methinks that won't stay up for long...especially since this same author made an appearance (to say hello) on Mindsight recently...two big no-nos in PA-land...hmmmmm...

Big Daddy West
:hat

[Minoterrae]

I've been reading a couple of older posts when I came across a few calling the Midwest Book Review a joke. Could someone please explain this?

I'm continuing to read the older posts so if this has already been answered, I will find it eventually.

Thanks!

www.abandon-hope.com

[emeraldcite]

i didn't even have to bring this up, someone did it on their own. Did anyone else notice that the convention's big draw Jaime Farr didn't show up?

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9277.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9277.htm)

not sure if this post will last, but there's the link. Apparently he cancelled because he was going to the academy awards. gee, i thought he'd pick the convention over that.

[FM St George]

well, looks like ALL those nasty posts asking all those nasty questions are gone...

*chuckle*

the sad thing is that people are beginning to notice because they're getting yanked and then asking... thus getting their own post yanked as well!

especially the new authors... wonder how they're feeling right now; being at the front of the new "banned" group?

:P

at least HB can breathe easier with the thugs from PA right there with their finger on the button to defend him...

*laughs*

[James D Macdonald]

Midwest Book Review has been around for years.

It serves a useful purpose: It catalogs self-published and very-small-press books, which otherwise might never be listed anywhere at all.

Gale Reseach (which is itself a bit of a joke) uses Midwest Book Review as one source of their shovelware reference books. These reference books do make it into libraries -- not because they're good, but because they're the only books out there on certain subjects. (I challenge anyone to take a random Gale Research book and not find a substantial error of fact -- before you get out of the table of contents.)

But ... as to why Midwest Book Reviews is itself a not-terribly-prestigious place to be reviewed.

As someone else said, they're amateur reviews for amateur books. All it takes to become one of their reviewers is to ask to be one. I could be one of their reviewers, you could, Aunt Mable could, Joe the Ragman could -- without having any particular talent for reviewing, knowledge of writing and literature, or anything else.

Next, MBR doesn't want prepublication review copies, uncorrected galleys, advance reading copies, or any of the other texts that are used by normal review sources. They want the finished book, after publication. It's possible that it's to cut down on the number of books they'd otherwise get whose only copy is the one sent to them for review. But that means that their reviews are useless for publicity ... the review will come out after the book's been available for weeks or months, too late for bookstore owners to use in their shelving decisions, too late to put a quote on the cover (the cover was printed long before MBR ever saw it). What this does for MBR, though, is it allows their reviewers to make a little money on the side by selling their review copies as used on Amazon.

Which leads us to the third reason the MBR isn't taken seriously. Every review they post is a good review. Their reviewers haven't met a book they didn't like. How to tell the good from the bad from the mediocre from the ambitious from the hackeneyed, if all the reviews say the book is superlative?

[Ed Williams 3]

One of the PA authors is trying to set up a group booksigning, and the bookstore owner involved is requiring the PA authors to put up $100 each for publicity expenses, etc. Sounds like pure robbery, right? Something any of us would laugh at, right? Not so for HB - here's his response to a posting asking for which PA authors would be participating...

HBMarcus

3/06/2004
12:53:45

H. B. Marcus
CRISPY
The Joe Schmoe Show
RE: DAYTON SIGNING UPDATE


Message:
Do I have to email you? You know I'm freakin' in on this deal.

...And this is the guy that's doling out publishing advice to the PA authors...

[FM St George]

I know... when I first saw that post there was also the caveat that it's "all" going to "publicity" as well as lunch, etc... in other words, box lunches from the local deli and a cheap blurp on the local stations along with a handsome profit for the bookstore owner to boot...

AND, the sadder part, betcha the "authors" have to bring along their own copies since the bookstore won't order them in...

I shudder to think of the tax returns for any of these peeps... I'm not one to speak, having only two "black" years out of my four in writing to date, but this is ridiculous...

[RealityChuck]

One of the PA authors is trying to set up a group booksigning, and the bookstore owner involved is requiring the PA authors to put up $100 each for publicity expenses, etc. Sounds like pure robbery, right? Something any of us would laugh at, right? But they're getting on on the ground floor!

The only problem, is that the only other floor of that particular building is the basement.

[James D Macdonald]

It isn't a bookstore; it's a gift-and-knicknack store. Yes, the authors have to bring their own books.

No need for the quote marks around author, BTW. Every one of those folks is an author. Making smart business decisions never was part of the job description -- an author is somone who writes stuff, nothing more, nothing less. Quality, publication, none of that is part of the definition.

[FM St George]

true, James - I stand corrected.

:(

[FM St George]

oh, sweet irony... in my mailbox, courtesy of the Author Support Team at PublishAmerica:

**************

Dear Author,

Our second convention was a resounding success! We're still getting positive comments flowing in about it!

We had more than 300 people coming from all over the country, and even from places as far away as Canada and Britain. They had a great time together!

Don't take our word for it, but see the pictures here: www.publishamerica.com/conventions. (http://www.publishamerica.com/conventions.) Enjoy the slides!

We ran seven different seminars during the convention, led by PA authors, some with standing room only, and others were so packed that we had to break out walls to accommodate everyone. Sound recordings of each seminar are now available at $9.95 per seminar, on CD-rom. Totaling 7 hrs. 22 minutes, they include the moderator's presentation and the audience Q&A. They are very, very good and instructive.

Seminar #1: Using Imagination To Create Flamboyant Promotional Activities. 58 Minutes.
Seminar Leaders: CC Colee, authors of the three-book series: RB: The Enchantress, RB: The Widow Maker, and RB: The Game.
This seminar deals with presentation: how, and with what tools, props, and gadgets, do you approach your potential readers when you are making a presentation in a mall, a bookstore, or elsewhere? Must you show up as pirates, like CC Colee always do?

Seminar #2: Maximizing Book Signing Exposure. 79 Minutes.
Seminar Leader: Robert Amoroso, author of Journey.
This seminar details the do's and dont's of preparing and executing your book signing event, and of dealing with bookstore managers. Mr. Amoroso is one of PublishAmerica's most successful book signers, with events all over New York City. His nickname: "Amo Rex and the City."

Seminar #3: Creativity. 38 minutes.
Seminar Leader: Cindy Sandel, author of Prey for Reign.
This seminar delves deep into the author's well of creativity. It deals with how to overcome hurdles and blockades, including the hurdle of fear.

Seminar #4: You Are Who You Think You Are - Creating An Image. 34 Minutes.
Seminar Leader: Linda Alexander, author of Until Next Time, and Dorothy from Kansas Meets the Wizard of X.
This seminar teaches the author how to become his/her true self when confronting readers and buyers, and why it is a must to do that. It explains why book writing and promoting is all about You.

Seminar #5: How to Write Comedy. 79 Minutes.
Seminar Leader: HB Marcus, author of Crispy, and The Joe Schmoe Show.
This seminar debates the art of comedy writing, including what to do, and particularly what not to do. It answers questions such as, "What is funny, and what is not?"

Seminar #6: The Benefits of Book Readings (As Opposed To Signings). 79 minutes.
Seminar Leader: Joe Benevento, author of Plumbing in Harlem.
This seminar cuts right to the chase, teaching how to be effective and straightforward in actually selling an audience to your book, and selling the book proper. The moderator makes a compelling case that book readings is the way to do it.

Seminar #7: Fun with Fiction. 75 Minutes.
Seminar Leader: Lynn Barry (aka "Queen of Enthusiasm"), author of Puddles and Bjoyfl.
This seminar teaches the art of fiction writing as only Lynn Barry can teach it. She is an "author's author", and the seminar, taught in front of a packed house, shows why this is true.

Please order your copies here, or call us at 301-695-1707.

Thank you.

***********

wonder if the actual presenters are going to get a cut... oh, I think not.

:D

[DaveKuzminski]

There could be problems galore in what PA is offering. I doubt if any of the presenters were paid for their efforts, let alone offered a contract before they spoke. If not, then the authors probably own the copyrights to their presentations.

[Dancre]

Wait a minute!! This convention isn't teachng anything. What about writing mechanics, queries, proposals, creating characters, etc.? all this convention is doing is selling their "top" authors. the PA folks should take a junior college marketing class (trust me, they'll learn more), not authors who have no clue as to what their doing! You know, i really feel sorry for these people. but each his own. :o
kim

[sfsassenach]

Are they asking $9.95 PER session CD???<img border=0 src="http://www.ezboard.com/image/posticons/pi_freak.gif" />

Guess they assume there's a nimrod born every minute.

[emeraldcite]

and i'm sure eac speaker will buy a few copes of their own as well, not to mention family members. I'm betting the speakers signed away their rights beforehand. it's the kind of shady thing they'd do.

[FM St George]

place your bets now on how long this will stay up...

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/2657.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/2657.htm)

Message:
This is an e-mail I just sent to PA Author Support. I don't mean to bring anyone down, and I hope your experience has been more positive than mine. I just wanted other PA author's perspectives on what I am going through. I will keep you posted on their answer.

Thanks,

Roger L. Welton, DVM
Canine and Feline 101: A Complete Guide for Selecting, Training, and Caring for Dogs and Cats.

To whom it may concern:

My name is Roger L. Welton, DVM, author of "Canine and Feline 101: A Complete Guide for Selecting, Training, and Caring for Dogs and Cats." I have worked very hard getting local promotion with good results. On my latest campaign, I had the local newspaper in the municipality that I grew up (with 60,000 plus readers), do a full page article about me and my book. This was a huge step in the right direction. I was extremely disappointed, however, when I was recently contacted by several old acquaintances, friends, and family, all indicating that they were unable to purchase the book from major book sellers like Barnes and Noble, B Dalton's, and Waldenbooks; even by special ordering with the ISBN number. The reason that was given in every case is that there were no books in distributor warehouses in stock to order.

I have accepted the fact that Publish America provides its first time authors with zero promotional budget, and does nothing to help promote the author's book, besides sending book announcements to people whose names are provided by the author. I have also accepted the fact that we, as authors, carry all financial and manual responsibility for getting our books noticed and sold, even though we get only 8% of the revenue. However, when I work rigorously, mailing book copies and letters to countless media sources, only to have my efforts made useless by Publish America not making my book available to major book sellers, I cannot help but feel extremely disappointed and even angry.

When I first contacted the local Barnes and Noble where I live and was told by the manager that they do not carry any non-returnable titles (and therefore will not carry my book), I e-mailed author support concerned and disappointed. I was placated with a generic song and dance e-mail saying that, not all book store managers are created equal, and that I should not be deterred by the statements of just one manager. I will not accept such an e-mail again, since this a a real problem that I am now appreciating from MULTIPLE book sellers, based on reports from many who have tried to buy my book.

If I do not receive a satisfactory explanation and solution to this problem, I will pull the plug on all promotional attempts, as I will not have my time and money wasted any further.

Sincerely,

Roger L. Welton, DVM
Author - Canine and Feline 101: A Complete Guide for Selecting, Training, and Caring for Dogs and Cats.

[emeraldcite]

9:40. already gone.

[XThe NavigatorX]

I bet it's a good book, too.

[astonwest]

"When I first contacted the local Barnes and Noble where I live and was told by the manager that they do not carry any non-returnable titles (and therefore will not carry my book), I e-mailed author support concerned and disappointed. I was placated with a generic song and dance e-mail saying that, not all book store managers are created equal, and that I should not be deterred by the statements of just one manager."

Wow...flashbacks......

Although I placed my own message on the board, where it was quickly destroyed...(except the song and dance message they put up remained...hmmm)

Feel sorry for the guy...hopefully he hasn't plunked down too much money, and has only just begun his journey...will make his decision to end all promotional efforts a little easier, if so...

"this a a real problem that I am now appreciating from MULTIPLE book sellers, based on reports from many who have tried to buy my book"

Myself, I'd have to wonder why he doesn't get an honest answer (well, I know the answer to that, of course)...but surely other authors can't be that BLIND...but then again, maybe they can...

Who knows?
Big Daddy West
:hat

[FM St George]

well, you'd like to think that since posts are disappearing at about two or three a day that most of these authors are taking the hint and walking away from PA due to their attitude... if only because of the unprofessional way they handle themselves.

and before that post disappeared, btw - HB was in there, berating the poor doctor for daring to be nasty to PA on a public message board - told him to take it to email or to call PA if he had a problem.

pot... kettle, anyone?

sheesh.

[FM St George]

place your bets now!
**************
www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9315.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9315.htm)

Subject: Unfair Comments about PA


Message:
I sent a fellow PA author the first chapter of my book last night to review. I will not state to whom as I feel that would not be professional.

As a fellow PA author I am quite upset about his statement in regards to PA:

"I need to tell you two things. The first is that I am a professional book editor. Since becoming a PA author a couple of months ago, I have already edited five books by other PA authors and I am currently editing a sixth.

The second thing I need to tell you is that, quite frankly, your book is far from being ready for publication. PA has accepted it because they do not have an editorial staff. They will print whatever you write. If you write well, that's good (as far as PA is concerned). If
you write badly, that's okay too (as far as PA is concerned). PA is in the publishing business, not the editing business. They will print your book with any misspelled words
that you don't catch (in your first chapter you have the word "awaitng" and if you don't correct it neither will PA). You have the sentence: "She had no way to support herself, yet alone a
newborn." But the correct phrase is "let alone a
newborn," not "yet alone a newborn." If you don't correct that, neither will PA.
I am telling you this because you have a good story to tell, an interesting one and a very touching one for which I am sure there is a wide audience. However, strictly from the point of view of "quality" writing -- which I am certain you can eventually achieve -- at this point your book needs a considerable amount of work. It needs to be reviewed by a professional editor."

Mind you, I did state to this person I am still waiting for my first proofs which I know will need to have corrections in spelling, grammar made to it.

I am not offended by that.

I am offended by this person stating basically that PA will publish anything they receive! They don't care how poorly it is written as long as they might make money as a publisher!

Considering I made it through PA's process am am in the 20% of books they accept, I believe they feel my book does have merit and is worthy of being published.

It amazes me that one of our fellow authors feels this way about PA. Makes me wonder if this person feels PA will publish anything, including trash, for a buck...why this person is with PA!!

Yes, I asked for the review and can I handle negative comments...but not bad mouthing of our publisher.

This person also suggested I entirely rewite my book as fiction rather than the true story it is, which I defintely will not do! Also, change the title of my book, which I won't do.

I know I am not the world's greatest author, but don't feel such negative comments about our publisher are merited.

Also, considering I have a number of professional reviews already in hand and thousands of visitors to my web site who have very positive comments about my book...just makes me wonder.

Sorry, had to vent. I have already sent a personal reply to our fellow author. Please, I don't want to start a war over this and please excuse any typos I might have made in this posting...I have been working all night and eyes are getting blurry at this hour.

Larry~
www.authorsden.com/lawrencepadams (http://www.authorsden.com/lawrencepadams)

**********

now watch for the witchhunt to find this other PA author and string them up, hmm?

:P

[bluwinteryfox]

"Methinks that won't stay up for long...especially since this same author made an appearance (to say hello) on Mindsight recently...two big no-nos in PA-land...hmmmmm..."

I'm here to tell you, :lol I'm still able to post with PA! I was certain that the post would be pulled because of my reply and that I'd be banned from posting again. I kept checking to see if- no when- the post would be pulled. I replied around 11am, at 3pm it was still there, but 45 minutes later it was gone. I then found another thread decided to post and to my surprise I could.

I emailed the fellow who began the thread to let him know his second one was pulled. He replies and says he's been banned. He even wrote PA a pretty good email asking them for the reason he's been banned.

Like he's going to get a reply.

LRM

[FM St George]

the sad thing is that these authors aren't ranting and raving and screaming and cursing in their posts - they're asking valid questions that should be addressed by PA. Instead, they get banned and if they're smart, walk away while the rest of the cultists pat each other on the back and encourage others into the flock...

[bazhe]

be very careful
it is a scam

[FM St George]

and who says that the age of spamming is dead...

*points up*

argh!

[DaveKuzminski]

Just shows that they haven't a clue when they advertize in The Bewares Board. It's as if their subconscious is trying to warn you away.

[bazhe]

this is truth, it is not spam my dear
i have legal documents to prove it!

[James D Macdonald]

Bazhe, since your book isn't from PublishAmerica, why are you posting in a PublishAmerica discussion?

[bazhe]

i know people who had published with them
you have a great book cover

[emeraldcite]

any unsolicited advertisement on these boards is spam. there is a section on absolute write for announcements. you can place your materials there. If you feel you have something to add to the discussion than to reaffirm the already well-known idea that these POD's have the potential or possibility to be scams is not really adding at all.

you are providing canned statements that have little to do with the postings on this board while simultaneously advertising your web page. this is spam. you are spamming.

spam has its place on this board in the announcments section. please direct all your further adverts there. thank you.

[astonwest]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9315.htm

It's gone...

I'm actually a little bit surprised...the Support Team may have itchy trigger fingers...usually, you'll see one of these "look what someone told me about my book" posts, and then they'll let it stay on, because everyone is jumping on trying to form a lynch mob, and proclaiming the perfection of PA...

Must have had others come on and complain about lack of editing...I guess...

[bluwinteryfox]

I saved the file because of what one woman said. Lo and behold just that portion of the thread was missing when I went back. And yes another fellow did mention how many errors he had.

During dinner my son asked me if I was going to add to that thread and mention how many errors PA put into my manuscript. Can't do that now. I'm so unhappy. :x

Me thinks the natives are becoming very restless.

[DaveKuzminski]

I'm surprised that PublishAmerica had a convention knowing that they can't delete the mouths of anyone who might ask those questions in the presence of other authors. Maybe that convention is why so many are now stepping forward. They had a chance to compare notes and discover that they're not getting a good deal at all.

[HapiSofi]

Emeraldcite, don't bother to argue or remonstrate with him. These guys only give the appearance of interactivity. For them, this board isn't a conversation. It's a target of opportunity.

The only thing that works with comment spammers is to delete their messages as quickly as possible, and if possible ban them from posting further. Letting them stay up demonstrates that the site is a profitable target, and thus encourages more comment spam.

[emeraldcite]

<quote>Emeraldcite, don't bother to argue or remonstrate with him. These guys only give the appearance of interactivity. For them, this board isn't a conversation. It's a target of opportunity. </quote>


you're exactly right. i think it was more me letting off steam than any real functionality. wish i could delete the spam, but my powers of editing only work in novels and short fiction. just got rid of some spam there a little while ago. so annoying.

[James D Macdonald]

It strikes me that there are two kinds of authors at PA:

First are the ones who want to sell books and have readers. These include the guy who wrote the book about cats and dogs. The ones who want to be authors soon get discouraged/disillusioned, then banned, then move on to other things. (But not before selling their 75 books. Look at that guy who sent 60 copies to libraries. If he sells just fifteen more copies (or buys them himself) he'll have paid his vanity press fee. Doesn't make any difference to PA whether he's happy or sad, it's all money.)

Second are the ones who want to B*E* A*U*T*H*O*R*S*!!!
They're playing a fantasy role-playing game. It doesn't matter to them that every book they sell is costing them money -- it's all about being a Real Live Author (high prestige! the envy of all your friends! a hometown celebrity!) not having readers or making a living at this racket. They'll shell out all kinds of cash in order to sit behind a table for hours and sell one or maybe two books, because it makes them Feel Like an Author!

It's an ego thing. And if it makes them happy, who's to say they aren't getting their money's worth?

[HapiSofi]

Who's the local deity in charge of slaughtering malfeasants?

[Ed Williams 3]

...its posted on the PA boards, and I know it will be gone before you know it - wild!

tiffdog97

3/10/2004
01:36:09
Subject: My email correspondance with PA


Message:
This is a real eye opener. As authors published by this company, you need to read my following e-mail correspondance with PA. Please post replies as soon as possible, as the last time I posted on this subject, my post was promptly removed by the PA website. If company policy is not changed to remedy this current situation, and a law suit ensues, the more of us that band together, the greater our chances that we can hit this company where it hurts. I already have an attorney who is willing to represent other PA authors in this matter and represent us as a group. Since I am certain that they will remove my post again, please feel free to e-mail me directly at tiffdog97@optonline.net Here are the e-mails:

To whom it may concern:

My name is Roger L. Welton, DVM, author of "Canine and Feline 101: A Complete Guide for Selecting, Training, and Caring for Dogs and Cats." I have worked very hard getting local promotion with good results. On my latest campaign, I had the local newspaper in the municipality that I grew up (with 60,000 plus readers), do a full page article about me and my book. This was a huge step in the right direction. I was extremely disappointed,
however, when I was recently contacted by several old acquaintances,friends, and family, all indicating that they were unable to purchase the book from major book sellers like Barnes and Noble, B Dalton's, and Waldenbooks; even by special ordering with the ISBN number. The reason that was given in every case is that there were no books in distributor
warehouses in stock to order.

I have accepted the fact that Publish America provides its first time authors with zero promotional budget, and does nothing to help promote the author's book, besides sending book announcements to people whose names are provided by the author. I have also accepted the fact that we, as authors,carry all financial and manual responsibility for getting our books noticed and sold, even though we get only 8% of the revenue. However, when I work rigorously, mailing book copies and letters to countless media sources,only to have my efforts made useless by Publish America not making my book available to major book sellers, I cannot help but feel extremely disappointed and even angry.

When I first contacted the local Barnes and Noble where I live and was told by the manager that they do not carry any non-returnable titles (and therefore will not carry my book), I e-mailed author support concerned and disappointed. I was placated with a generic song and dance e-mail saying that, not all book store managers are created equal, and that I should not be deterred by the statements of just one manager. I will not accept such an e-mail again, since this a a real problem that I am now appreciating from MULTIPLE book sellers, based on reports from many who have tried to buy my
book.

If I do not receive a satisfactory explanation and solution to this
problem, I will pull the plug on all promotional attempts, as I will not have my time and money wasted any further.

Sincerely,

Roger L. Welton, DVM
Author - Canine and Feline 101: A Complete Guide for Selecting,
Training,and Caring for Dogs and Cats.


Dear Mr. Welton,
>
> Unfortunately, that is a problem a lot of our authors are running
> into.There are a few ways to get around this however. You can have
> bookstorescarry your book on a consignment basis, or a bookstore
> can have customers
> pre-pay before they order your book. If I can be of any further
> help please
> do not hesitate to ask.
>
> Thank You,
> Jessica
> Author Support Team
> Jessica@publishamerica.com

Dear Jessica:

Let me tell you the problem with your solution. First, the author discount that you provide us with is only 30%, but we also pay for shipping. All bookstores that I have discussed consignment selling with, keep 50% of the retail, leaving the author with a negative profit when it is all said and done, since you do not pay royalties on author purchased books.

Second, major book sellers do not sell on consignment, period. I know, I've asked.

Finally, I am an author, not a book distributor. It is the respopnsibility of the publisher to make the book available to book sellers, NOT THE AUTHOR. I do not have the money, time, or resources to personally stock the nations book stores with my book.

Basically, there is absolutely no benefit to getting published with Publish America. It is actually a liability. Had I self published, I would have to personally make the book available, fund and work my own promotion just like my current situation; but at least I would make 80% of the profit for all my work.

Your company is a scam, preying on honest authors that dream of getting their work published. You tell us to promote like crazy, send copies of the book to all kinds of media, making a nice profit on all the books WE PERSONALLY BUY!!!!!!! Then, after we are successful in our promotion and people want to buy the book, they can't because you don't make it available to book sellers.

And then when I call you out on the matter, all that you can reply is that this is a common problem that PA authors encounter!!!!!!!!!!! Your solution is for me to purchase more books from you, and personally stock all the stores myself - AT NEGATIVE PROFIT once the math adds up.

As of right now, my promotion STOPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will not line your pockets, buying and sending my books to media, so that people who subsequently want it will be told by book sellers that they can't even order it. I want a reply to this email from one of the higher up executives of your company. If a reasonable solution is not offered, the e-mail correspondence stops. The next contact we have will be through my attorney. Incidently, on his advice, I am keeping a record of all of our correspondance.

Sincerely,

Roger L. Welton, DVM
Author, Canine and Feline 101

P.S. I liked how your website promptly removed my post, detailing my last e-mail to your company. I guess freedom of expression does not apply with Publish America when they are exposed for the fraud that they are.








LAdams

3/10/2004
03:39:38


RE: My email correspondance with PA


Message:
This should be between you and PA privately.

[astonwest]

Looking into my crystal ball, I foresee the post being removed, and the author banned...

Some notes:

"All bookstores that I have discussed consignment selling with, keep 50% of the retail, leaving the author with a negative profit when it is all said and done, since you do not pay royalties on author purchased books."

Weird...all bookstores I've ever discussed consignments with, it's generally been a 60-40 split (40 for the store)...You still end up with a negative profit (unless you've purchased at a special rate (and gotten in on a free shipping period)).

"Second, major book sellers do not sell on consignment, period. I know, I've asked."

I can vouch for this...none of the majors I've ever talked to have offered consignment as an option...

Something he didn't mention, but should be for the record...what kinds of customers are going to run into the store and pre-pay for a book they've never seen? They're either going to be personally affiliated with the author (friends and family), or your book is just so darn good they have to have it...and which do we figure in the case of these books?

*****

On a personal note, I have to wonder if this person didn't sign up a book just for the purpose of picking a fight with PA on their board...definitely has that sort of a ring to it...with all the bits and pieces about what "real publishers" do, and the matter of being "an author, not a book distributor", it's almost like they were navigating around the various writing sites before signing on...either that, or they've been published by a "real publisher" before, and know all this stuff, which would make one wonder why they'd signed on with PA, knowing all this info...strange...

I laughed out loud when I saw the responding post...
"This should be between you and PA privately."

HAHAHAHA

If that had simply been between the author and PA privately, the person would have been banned from their board before even getting in their shot...at least this way, the message gets preserved over here... :-P

Big Daddy West
:hat

[FM St George]

well, he was probably suckered in like the rest of us - you have to admit, PA is pretty slick in making you THINK that you'll be seeing your book in the local Barnes and Noble...

I"m not sure if he has a leg to stand on legally, but it's nice to see someone with balls on the forum - I'm sure HB and the rest of the bullies will be oot and aboot soon, but still...

who wants to invite him over here?

:D

[FM St George]

btw, the post was gone before I even posted the above note - I did send him an email telling him we were here and hoping that he'd visit...

yes, I'm THAT nice.

:P

it's good to see the PA bullies whetting their knives more than ever - I think that there's a lot more questions coming up when people actually SEE their royalty checks and the dismal amounts resulting from all their hard work.

when you see something like 62 cents a book coming to you because some bookstore took pity on you and ordered 10 at the retail discount of 7.77... you realise that the royalty ain't on the list price, etc etc etc... and suddenly that hundred you dropped on bookmarks is so much larger now...

still, there's a certain place in hell for all those PA employees willingly going along with this barely-legal scam...

[RealityChuck]

it's good to see the PA bullies whetting their knives more than ever - I think that there's a lot more questions coming up when people actually SEE their royalty checks and the dismal amounts resulting from all their hard work.Maybe, maybe not.

I visited a PA author web page where he was bragging about a $9.06 royalty check and saying all it cost him was the marketing expenses.

Which, of course, he didn't enumerate.

[AC Crispin]

Several months ago, I asked Victoria Strauss to post the contact information for the Maryland Attorney General's office. At that time, when I checked, there had been only ONE, count 'em ONE complaint received by them regarding Publish America's shenanigans.

That complaint was made by Mark, the fellow who has since been banned.

My question: If you are so angry, why haven't you actually gone ahead and made an official complaint?

Why?

Just FYI, here's a repeat of the information Victoria posted.

The telephone number for the Attorney General of Maryland is:
(410) 576-6300.

I was told email is NOT going to make the biggest impression. Hardcopy letters do better. If you get no satisfaction from your initial letter, I would write another, stronger letter, and in that one I'd cc: my congressperson and senator, and maybe John Ashcroft.

Office of Attorney General
200 St. Paul Pl.
Baltimore, MD 21202

Okay, just my two cents, FWIW.

-Ann C. Crispin

[FM St George]

hmm... how precisely would you suggest we word it however - I'd hate to come off sounding like a raving lunatic upset 'cause my book hadn't been the next Harry Potter, etc...

let's put our collective heads together and list point by point the actual complaints we can lay out in our letters to the AG without dropping into sarcasm and blathering rhetoric...

[James D Macdonald]

I'd think "deceptive claims and business practices," starting with "We're a tradtional publisher" would be the way to go.

Better might be for a lawyer trained in such things to read the PA site, read this and other message boards, and make a determination. I'm not a lawyer, and don't play one on TV.

Do remember to get screenshots of PA's pages -- it takes about one second to make a statement on a web page vanish as if it had never been.

[DaveKuzminski]

Check the search page caches at Google, Dogpile, and others. They often have an old page stored that's coming up as a 404. Get that on screen and then do your save.

[HapiSofi]

Deliberate deception. They say over and over again that they'll get your book into bookstores, which is one of their major attractions as far as writers are concerned; but they don't, and they know they don't. They don't even try, and they won't lift a finger to help authors get bookstore placement (I'm thinking of times when the author desperately needs to get books shipped now, not a couple of months from now) when the author's the one doing all the work.

How do we know this is deliberate? The most blatant piece of evidence is that the fastest and surest way to get your messages deleted, and yourself banned from the PA message boards, is to talk about their lack of bookstore placement. No matter how apologetic or placatory the poster's tone, the message vanishes.

What else can we judge from this? That PA knows bookstore placement is a nontrivial consideration for writers thinking of submitting manuscripts to them. They're within their rights to use the PA boards as a customer-generated sales tool, and delete material they think is too critical of PA. But when posts about one subject are deleted more quickly, ruthlessly, and inflexibly than posts about any other subject, PA is acknowledging that that subject is important to their potential customers.

We also know that they must be aware that lack of bookstore placement is a real problem for many of their authors. If you delete a post on a particular subject, but you don't delete the posts around it, and you consistently delete posts on that subject, it necessarily follows that you've read that post and grasped its content. PA is therefore unable to claim that they're unaware that bookstores won't take their books. They've heard about it repeatedly, and registered their awareness by deleting those messages.

They incriminate themselves in other ways. I've seen PA staffers defend the proposition that PA gets bookstore placement by describing a trip to a big bookstore close to PA headquarters, where they found a half-dozen copies total of three or four PA titles. Given that PA has published c. 7,000 titles now, you couldn't ask for better evidence that they don't get bookstore placement -- there should be hundreds, even thousands of copies of PA books at that store.

I'd like to see PA and HB Marcus subpoenaed for information on the nature of their relationship. HBM has been on the PA boards from the beginning, which is a great rarity. (Most of their active posters are authors who're either waiting for their books to come out, or have recently been published. Few are still posting more than a year after they started.) HBM is also the only PA author I know of who gets Amazon reviews that are explicitly by Willem Meiners, who's one of the people who runs PA. He's been a relentless booster of PA in spite of the very poor sales performance of his PA-published books, on Amazon and elsewhere.

HBM puts a large amount of time -- and a consistent amount of time -- into patrolling the PA message boards (plus occasional sockpuppet forays into other venues). He's a relentless PA booster, and flames, bullies, mocks, and generally makes life miserable for even mild nay-sayers. He propagates a fairly consistent party line, never gets disciplined, and never appears hesitant about whether what he says will be displeasing to PA. The falsehoods he creates on PA's behalf are artful.

I've known a number of online jerks of HBM's stripe. What I've never known is one who was such a loyal and enthusiastic booster of some cause that he consistently put in large numbers of hours, and put in a consistent performance, defending their fair name and acting as prime enforcer on their own message boards.

What am I getting at here? I believe that what behaves like staff is probably staff. I think HB Marcus is the deniable voice of PublishAmerica, and that his job is to conduct heavy-handed enforcement, and promulgate disinformation, in ways PA doesn't want to be liable for doing.

[astonwest]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9322.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9322.htm)

This one has stayed up for a little while...wonder how long it will last (I'm guessing until a few more folks comment on the lack of editing, and don't add redeeming remarks about PA to their complaint)...

Big Daddy West
:hat

[emeraldcite]

9:12. the post is gone. I wonder if someone trolls these boards and then removes the post we link to. not all of them, of course, but we may be helping patrol the boards as well in a manner. this is no reason to stop. eventually people will really start to notice that things are yanked, not just occasionally, but on a daily basis. we notice.

[astonwest]

Fortutunately, I did copy it down for posterity (though unfortunately, some of the more (apparently) volatile posts were made after I linked to it)...but it was basically the same old song and dance...

--The author is responsible for all editing...

--PA really does hire editors (although I maintain what walks and quacks like a duck is a duck, not a chicken)...

--Everyone should hire an editor...

There was the one soul who commented that his book was not edited at all (which prompted me to link to the now-dead thread)...and of course, can't have a complaint without the opposite reaction thereafter...

oh well...

I'd bet policing this board for threads to pull is standard operating procedure...along with filling their list of malcontents (to watch them for banishable actions, such as having links to sites such as this one and/or Mindsight).

[FM St George]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/2692.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/2692.htm)

here's a good laugh - the author is concerned that her true crime book is being discussed from another angle on another bulletin board and suddenly HB's in there denouncing other PA authors who post on other boards... in other words, he didn't really read the post; he just leapt to the conclusion that every other board is full of PA authors who are "backstabbing" PA...

it's a hoot!

[DaveKuzminski]

Here's one post from the other forum:

HBMarcus

3/10/2004
23:38:21

H. B. Marcus
CRISPY
The Joe Schmoe Show
RE: The fight is heating up ...


Message:
marti, people have blown off the other boards to the point where they're a joke to the general public.

I realize that one of our own pirates posts elsewhere to be pals with the regulars on another site. This may add a hint of legitimacy to their tirade to some newbies, but not when you consider loyalty versus aquaintances, I think you know where they'll end up.

So...they can spew all the crap they want and "think for themselves"...like how to crawl away from the 'two-faced' label: "If they're stabbing that back, when is mine next?" And from there it breaks down into a few sub-cultures of stupidity.

Blow it off. Idiots tire easily.

***end of quoted message***

Of course, HB speaks from experience with his last statement.

[FM St George]

Author Diana Hignutt has just signed a deal with Lake Forest, CA based Behler Publications, to publish her second novel, EMPRESS OF CLOUDS. The book should be released by mid 2004. Diana expects to have along and mutually beneficial relationship with Behler, and is very excited about this match-up. EMPRESS OF CLOUDS is the long awaited sequel to MOONSWORD.

from the Authors Den website...

don't know much about this other publisher, but obviously she's decided to not stay with PublishAmerica despite all the great "support" they've given her...

ooh... wonder how this'll sit with the rabid PAvidians over there when they find out...

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://www.behlerpublications.com/" target="_new">Behler Publications</a> appears to be a start-up PoD. Four titles; one in print the rest forthcoming (none listed at Amazon). They claim they have a return policy.

Too early to tell if they actually get bookstore distribution.

Diana would be well advised to shoot high rather than low: Start submitting to the big traditional houses rather than the small-to-micro and PoD presses.

[vstrauss]

According to a Whois search, the domain server for Behler Publications is Paulnorwood.net, and the administrative contact is Paul Norwood. Mr. Norwood is a web developer and PA author, and runs the e-zine that a group of PA authors started up a few months ago. Which I guess explains why all of Behler's titles right now are from PA authors.

I'm casting no aspersions, by the way. Perhaps the knowledge these folks have gained from their PA experience will help them to do a better job of selecting, marketing and distributing their books, and give their authors a chance of being noticed.

- Victoria

[FM St George]

ah... well, this could get interesting fast if PA gets upset at some of their authors being "poached" as it were...

HB's gonna be a busy boy...

:D

[James D Macdonald]

While book store managers lock the doors when they see them coming, and editors return their manuscripts unopened, stuff like this gets printed by <a href="http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0345469089&view=excerpt" target="_new">Ballantine</a> and is going to be in huge cardboard display dumps by the front door of every Barnes&Noble in the country in about a month's time.

Yeah, life's unfair.

[allion]

Now I'm really depressed...

Do we really need a "movie tie-in" for a cat who has been in the comics for as long as I can remember?

My guess is that someone said the magic word "synergy" and off they went. Off the deep end, most likely. This goes along with the Cat in the Hat castoffs I saw at Wal-Mart today. Sad collections of stuffed nonsense someone was supposed to buy.

PA authors are not the only ones waking up screaming at stories like this, however.

[Dragon Chow]

That's the publisher Lynn Price (aka PA Library Lynn) started, isn't it? I remember her talking about it over at Mindsight (http://www.mindsightseries.com/discus/messages/6/3076.html?1076900205). She probably had Paul Norwood do the web site.

DC

[dgkgoldberg]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/2692.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/2692.htm)
was mentioned earlier but it has grown into something quite amazing --- look fast, I suspect it won't last long

[emeraldcite]

I get a lot of emails every single day. There are a lot of lurkers asking questions. There are a lot of people considering PA as their publisher. Ther are a lot of people asking for help. When someone sends me an email about you (I have six so far) and your performance on another board, I go check it out.

So far I can say without hesitation that you spewing that convention seminars almost ended in brawls and PA hiring armed guards to keep people from asking too many questions...well, I just don't see how you're helping PA book sales in the least.

That's not visiting with pals. That's riding both sides of the fence and making PA look bad while you do it. All I'm doing is trying to help PA authors. What are you doing?

is this an admittance by HB that he's PA's monkey?

[emeraldcite]

that thread has gotten absolutely nasty. i'll save a copy in case anyone wants to read it after it's down (even though HB absolutely struck down the fact that PA doesn't delete posts...)

[emeraldcite]

nevermind. they already took it down. searched my history, couldn't find a copy. it was pretty heated.

[dgkgoldberg]

given that i read it after 10 pm and posted around 11 Pm regarding that thread it seems that someone at PA works through the night deleting threads

oy

[emeraldcite]

i read it, and was just about to go back and save it, but it was gone. too bad, it would have been a nice one to share. it's like a soap opera

[Ed Williams 3]

....ever wonder why there are "Author Message Boards" in the first place? I see no real publishing house with them, and the overall conduct on those boards and the inanity of some of the subject matter leave a lot to be desired. Discussions about nine dollar royalty checks? Authors reprimanding other authors about posting on other-than-PA bulletin boards? I'm sure PA uses the boards to promote the masturbatory, "us against the world" attitude that helps them fleece new recruits each day, and HB is the chief enforcer should anyone step out of line. I'm really beginning to believe that he must be on the PA payroll in some capacity, and his stupidity would be humorous were it not for the fact that he actively seeks to bring in more authors for his PA masters. Hope he has good legal representation, cause one day some of this shennanigans are gonna come back to haunt him...he may find that being the chief PAvidian carries a heavy price with it...

[FM St George]

www.publishamerica.com/cg...al/724.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/724.htm)

Message:
H. B. Marcus
I thought that I should publicly THANK you for what you’ve done for me.
All right then; Marcus, thanks
Yianni


HBMarcus

3/11/2004
14:36:04

H. B. Marcus
CRISPY
The Joe Schmoe Show
RE: Hope for Peace


Message:
Hey, even though we disagree on some things, I think you have something to contribute to this forum. That's why I tried to get you back on here. I'm just glad PA agreed with me. They must think your idea had merit despite your public opinions. (let's be careful with that axe in the future, shall we?)

SO? Let's see it! What's your marketing strategy? It's a new idea, therefore I'm already a fan. Lay out the entire plan for us and I'm already on board Yianni. Let's make it happen!
YO HO HO!

Yianni Palos

3/11/2004
21:50:51

RE: Hope for Peace


Message:
Please understand that I am not a dreamer who is trying to bring down the moon with a child’s plastic toy-gun. I am a pragmatist. But if I don't at least try it I 'd never know if I can shoot down the moon on the top of the earth.

What I’ve done so far:

I gave more than ten copies to the Media Center Chairpersons at High schools.

Three copies to Professors at Florida State University’s Filmschool, and a copy to the President of FSU, whom I happened to know personally.

I entered The Newbery Awards.

I entered the American Book Awards, and I am even thinking to enter the Nobel Prize for Literature. Am I crazy? Maybe, maybe not. Got to read my novel first to make such a judgment.

I’ve sent a copy to ALA in Chicago, ‘American Library Association’ to the proper Chairperson of their Young Adult Acquisition Department

I’ve sent seven copies to the reviewers for the ALA. These reviewers can not discriminate what they review, even if a book is a Vanity or a self-published book.

A gave a copy to each Public and State Library in Tallahassee, Florida, not only to write reviews about HOPEWATCH, but also to purchase the book through their Acquisition Department.

And I have done something else that might sell 10.000 copies of Hopewatch in a single day.
Ssssssh! It's a secret.

About the author:

Yianni Palos was born in Greece in April, 1942. He came to America in 1974. In 1999 he received a degree of Associate in Arts from Tallahassee Community College. HOPEWATCH & The Art of Peace is his first published novel.
Yianni
"Hopewatch & The Art of Peace?
www.yiannipalos.com (http://www.yiannipalos.com)


Morticia

3/11/2004
21:55:27
RE: Hope for Peace


Message:


Now this is wondermus guys, fantabulous!!!! Wow, what a fab fam we have here :) *big sighs*


Cindy
FLUTTER BY

HBMarcus

3/11/2004
22:08:09

H. B. Marcus
CRISPY
The Joe Schmoe Show
RE: Hope for Peace


Message:
Do you want to sell books Cindy? Why don't you take a look at the single biggest advantage PA has over traditional publishers and have at it.

Morticia

3/12/2004
00:21:27
RE: Hope for Peace


Message:


Call me a dumb blonde, but I always think you are yelling at me H.B.

Yes, Yianni, you do have something to contribute to this forum, and I am glad you are back, but I want to know your secret :) Forgive my little touch of gin before posting the last post. Your ideas are great and much needed.

Cindy

**************
now maybe it's ME, but that seems to pretty well determine the relationship between HB and PublishAmerica...

[sfsassenach]

I alternate between pitying these people and wondering how anyone can be so delusional.

One of them sent her book to the Pope, and posted excitedly about the thank you note she received--as if the Pope himself, and not one of his many, many assistants, wrote it.

Most of them live in a dream world.

[bluwinteryfox]

I saved this thread. I'm not sure how many more posts were put on after I did save it at 10:42 last night, but I do have most of HB's rants.

It really scared me when I read Yianni Palos' post. What did he have to promise to keep on posting?

I have problems believing that everyone believes PA is so wonderful. Even after I got my dollar, I didn't do that stupid dollar or snoopy dance. Yeah, I was happy, but dancing?

And sleeping with their author copies? Please. I was furious when I got mine. I agreed to a dark blue cover and it came with a purple. I waited 2 days and called. I was told on the phone that if it was a printer problem they'd reprint them after I returned one of my copies. I was also told to email author support. I told the gal that I had problems with them replying to my emails. She told me PA was understaffed. Like I didn't know that.

She then suggested I email the gal who did my cover-art. I did and after a week, no reply. I sent it again and guess who replied?? Author Support. They told me that the color of the book doesn't make or sell it. So it's still purple. That was what made me begin looking for other's who were not thrilled with PA.

[emeraldcite]

They told me that the color of the book doesn't make or sell it

The cover certainly doesn't make a book, but it does sell it. If covers didn't sell, then why would they redesign King's books every few years?

[XThe NavigatorX]

I haven't been following the recent postings, so I don't know if this has already been talked about, but I just heard from the Mindsight Forum that Lynn Price got banned from the PA board simply because she dared post over at Mindsight. I don't recall her saying anything all that negative about PA, but I have seen her slam Mr. Marcus in response to something he said about her.

She's the one who runs the lending library, all on her own dime. (the website is at www.pa-lendinglibrary.com/ (http://www.pa-lendinglibrary.com/) ) I can't imagine how much effort it takes to trek out to the post office every day and mail out all those books, inventory them, and keep the website up to date, etc. Not to mention how much space it must take in her own home. It's very silly of the PA police to ban her.

[emeraldcite]

her and HB had it out on a post that was ... gasp... deleted (you don't say!). so after their big argument, the post was deleted, she was banned, and HB adds another strike mark on the side of his warship.

[James D Macdonald]

And I have done something else that might sell 10.000 copies of Hopewatch in a single day.
Ssssssh! It's a secret.

If Yianni manages this, he'll discover that PA doesn't have the ability to produce that many copies.

[peachee]

Before I respond re: PA's convention, mentioned in another note, I 1st want to politely request that I receive no inflammatory comments towards me personally or my choice in publisher. I have an extensive publishing history, which you're more than welcome to peruse @: www.authorsden.com/lindajalexander (http://www.authorsden.com/lindajalexander) or www.i-am-america.net (http://www.i-am-america.net) . I've been writing for publication for well over 15 yrs, do professional editing for others, & fully understand both my current publisher's strong points & the issues that tend to cause disruption.

That said, let me state simply: presenters were "paid" with the cost of the convention, including hotel stay & all meals, being paid by PA. Presenters will also receive a copy of the tape for their use, a percentage of sales from each tape, & the actual presentation belongs to the presenter, to do w/in future endeavors as he/she wishes.

I was a presenter, so this info comes from an "inside source." I know that my particular topic was well-rec'd. It may have not been directly related to "how to write," but is an issue to which I firmly believe authors should attend, if they expect to grow a repeat audience, rather than a sale here & there.

Blessings -- Linda Alexander:

heart

[DaveKuzminski]

What "strong points" would those be?

As to presentation rights, I don't know of any convention that takes rights in what a presenter states other than the one you participated within. Most do pay for attendance as your publisher did for presenters. However, that did not grant the conventions any rights. Before you state that your publisher didn't take any rights, remember that you stated they provide you with a copy of the tape and a percentage of sales. To do that, they had to take rights.

This brings up my second question. Do you and your publisher have a written contract covering your presentation?

[DaveKuzminski]

Having heard about another banning, I read the PublishAmerica forum and found this:

Jake Green



3/12/2004
22:13:14
Subject: What happened


Message:
I have been busy editing and guess I missed something. I received a note from Lynn Price--closing the library--and she that had been banned. Lynn was a good addition to the board. What did she do?
Jess

Josh Stafford

3/12/2004
22:44:44


RE: What happened


Message:
Yeah, I heard about it too. I was, and still am shocked. I never heard Lynn be anything but polite and professional on the boards. What's up?

Josh
www.JoshStaffordBooks.com

LBS

3/12/2004
22:51:37
RE: What happened


Message:
YeeGods!...where have I been! What a shame!

I know the LL has provided authors with some avenues for reviews...(sniff), and just about the time I was going to send a book, too!

Lynn, if you are out there...take care! Gonna miss ya!

Shannon




chickey

3/12/2004
22:56:48


RE: What happened


Message:
Huh? Don't you have to be really naughty to be banned? Do you think they could have been upset about the library?

Cynthia Hickey
Pursued by Evil
publishedauthors.net/cynthiahickey

Brenweb

3/13/2004
00:04:26


RE: What happened


Message:
I got an email from Lynn too, who banned her? I didn't know anyone could get banned from a message board.

Brenda

Jackie

3/13/2004
00:51:10


RE: What happened


Message:
I have never seen a mean spirited post by Lynn. She's a real sweatheart and a valuable member of the board. What happened?
Jackie

marti2003

3/13/2004
01:15:21
RE: What happened


Message:

Actually, this is not a public message board. It is open for public viewing, but it belongs to the company. So if you worked for say ... Microsoft, and you gave an interview to a reporter in which you said some very unflattering things about Microsoft, I have no doubt Bill Gates would have you in his sights come the next morning. In fact, you'd probably get your last paycheck. Therefore, it is wise to be careful what you say on this message board.

No, I don't know if Lynn said something wrong. I'm just pointing out what kind of message board this is.


HBMarcus

3/13/2004
02:34:07

H. B. Marcus
CRISPY
The Joe Schmoe Show
RE: What happened


Message:
Actually you can blame it all on me.
Really, I'm not kidding this time.


Lynn was doing the lending library for her own personal gain, mostly social. But while she did that she was also trying to cause unrest and secretly trying to turn PA people against each other.

A few weeks ago I tried to expose her for what she was. Since she was so convincing, a few PA regulars actually attacked me and I vanished to regroup. Thursday night she took some bait and I slammed her with help from Tracy sutterer and Lynn Barry. We nailed her!

Whatever line of crap you might have heard from her at the convention and through emails, she was costing you book sales. All her social butterfly nonsense was just to win you over. I waited a long time for her to slip publicly and she did. She is freakin' gone!

I shouldn't take pride in this, but what she was doing was just plain wrong. Many PA people were duped and it really upset me. She slammed PA on other boards and slammed PA authors as well. But they were the same people she was smiling at as she slammed them.

I wish there was a nice way to put it and it may make me look like the bad guy once again, but I hope you all understand that I'm watching out for you all as well as myself. I don't get paid for this but I should after this round.

I should site the fact that PA singled her out and the co-captains even talked to her at the convention. They knew who she was. I don't think they would have said word one to her. She was being pretty sneaky. I'm just glad she took some bait and got trashed where everyone could see it.

I'm over all the thrashing I got over this. Nobody that was fooled by her is going to judged and ridiculed by me. She sounded legit to me too. Legally I can say she cost you all book sales and me included for her own social and financial gain.

Blow it off pirates. @#%$ happens.

melodie

3/13/2004
06:26:54


RE: What happened


Message:
HB, yes, you should take pride in what you've done. I'm not sure of all the details, but I think I have a pretty good idea of what you are talking about..
You are a dedicated PA'er, which most of us are and should be. I personally would like to thank you for standing up for what you believe in, and for defending PublishAMerica and the many of us that are dedicated as well.
You "Smelled something rotten in Denmark", and on your insticts followed through on behalf of everyone..Thanks again
Melodie Rogers
"Follow Me"
home.twcny.rr.com/melrogers (http://home.twcny.rr.com/melrogers)

Diana Hignutt

3/13/2004
06:59:56

MOONSWORD
RE: What happened


Message:
Watch what you say folks, we seem to have our own personal gestopo. How nice. Look, I have no idea what Lynn said, but she has never been anything but sincere and professional to me. She was my roomie at the convention,so I guess you guys better find some reason to ban me too. Lynn Price is my friend, and I am very proud to call her that. She instituted the Lending Library to help us gain additional exposure for our books, a whacky little ideal, I know. She got a "social benefit" from it? What the h-ll does that mean? You people, plotting and planning to trick your own into traps, should get a freaking life. This used to be a fun place, now we've got the PA police using entrapment to get people kicked off. I thought you guys were my friends, too, HB, Lynn B. and Tracy. What happened....

Diana Hignutt
No doubt soon to be kicked off...

Kristan

3/13/2004
07:11:51
RE: What happened


Message:
Huh????? You imply a lot of things about Lynn, HB, but you never say exactly what she is alleged to have done. Why not give us the gritty details?

Kristan
Strange Angels~The Book of Damaris

[DaveKuzminski]

HBMarcus



3/13/2004
03:35:34
Subject: PA will pull this right away!


Message:
"His delusional thinking that he is clever at 'outing' people only reveals his paranoia to its full extent. His last posts before it was pulled last night showed how completely off his rocker he became. It seemed the calmer I was, the nuttier he became. I believe his last paragraph was completely capitalized. I'm not certain because I didn't bother reading all of it. I just laughed and wished the poor, sad little man well."

This was a posting on another board by our 'FRIEND' Lynn. Since it was about me I thought everyone should enjoy it.

I just enjoy good wholesome PR.


paulapb

3/13/2004
04:41:16
RE: PA will pull this right away!


Message:
I am so out of it! Which one is Lynn? Does she have a picture here somewhere?

paulapb

3/13/2004
04:41:20
RE: PA will pull this right away!


Message:
I am so out of it! Which one is Lynn? Does she have a picture here somewhere?

[astonwest]

"That said, let me state simply: presenters were "paid" with the cost of the convention, including hotel stay & all meals, being paid by PA. Presenters will also receive a copy of the tape for their use, a percentage of sales from each tape, & the actual presentation belongs to the presenter, to do w/in future endeavors as he/she wishes."

Thanks for the info, Linda...
I was in fact curious about the details of the arrangements...so the info helped...

Big Daddy West
:hat

[CE Winterland]

Ann,

I'm curious... You stated that only 1 person had registered a complaint with the AG of MD, but that is not actually true....

How did you verify that information? Since 2001 I personally know of at least a dozen people that have made that complaint (myself included), and not just to the AG's office.

If you did verify the quantity of complaints with the AG's office, and their reply was that they only had 1, then they are not maintaining their records, which is quite disappointing, since the reply I received from them was that they would have to wait and collect more information. If they have "filed" previous complaints away, then they are not taking the whole story into account.

Again, just curious - people seem to like to point out these things to me for some reason.

CE Winterland
www.mindsightseries.com (http://www.mindsightseries.com)

[Ed Williams 3]

...from the PA boards, summed up quite well by Violet Towe, fellow Georgian...

"HB was jealous of the attention Lynn Price was getting"

That's what all this boils down to. What surprises me (don't know why it should though) is that Lynn Barry and TS Author helped him to gang up on Lynn.

Over on Absolute Writer, under their 'Bewares Board' they had posted the thread from the PA message board under the heading 'What Happened?' where someone asked why Lynn got banned, others asked the same question.

Then HB (the gestapo for PA) jumped in and posted his little message about how Lynn was out to turn other PA authors away from PA with her lending library. He also stated how Lynn Barry and TS Author helped him.

Jealousy drips from his words. Of course it didn't work as he'd planned because others demanded that he explain what he was talking about. Since I am sure HB (does that stand for 'Hell Bent'?) won't tell them, allow me.

HB is jealous of Lynn because of:

1) People really like her.
2) She was helping PA authors get their books read. (something HB would never do)
3) Lynn was stealing the PA show from HB.
4) Lynn stood up to the almighty HB.
5) Lynn is NOT a follower but a leader. (If everyone doesn't follow the all-powerful HB then they MUST be against him and PA)
6) Lynn has a life outside of PA (all HB has IS PA and his little band of followers)

I could list another dozen reasons why HB had to get rid of Lynn, but I think you can all see the reasons why HB and his two loyal subjects had to attack Lynn and rid themselves once and for all of someone who used her own brain to think with and did not follow the HB path of destruction.

If the powers that be at Publish America can't see what he's doing, then they are just as bad, if not worse, than HB is. What a bunch of clowns.

[winniemitzandme]

Thanks Ed, but my message was on the Mindsight board. I have been banned from the PA board for some time now, no great loss as far as I am concerned.

[Ed Williams 3]

....your post was on the Mindsight boards, and it was excellent. It saddens my heart to see people who are trying to do something with their writing get hounded and harassed by a talentless clown like HB. He seriously must have no life beyond those PA boards.

[whototrust]

Hi My name is Sheila, this is my comming out post.

My post made it to the PA board, it lasted a minute:)

OK, for what it is worthI was going to sit back and watch this disappear....


I am so disgusted in this posting....
I respected allot of you, I have been on this board since Sept.2002.It was Bill's post that gave me the confidence to come out of hiding.... I respect Bill the most on this board; I will miss your honesty and humour "Bill".
PA gave me a chance by publishing my book.
I am totally grateful! They have answered my emails, change errors, added a review from the Postpartum Depression International President and more. So I can say that. But to allow this exchange between authors is totally beyond words.


CC was the only Pa author that stepped in about the issue with armed guards.... HB, Lynn, and Tracy are you calling them liars also.

Lynn, Tracy I am at a total loss of words right now. Tracy you are a teacher, shame on you.... Lynn I really don't know what to say (of all people, not you)
HB, WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND, YOU RIPED ME APART ON THESE BOARDS AND YOU HAVE ALSO BELITTLED ALLOT OF PEOPLE.... SHAME ON YOU!
So now that I have added my opinion here, I am with Bill, I'm out of here. If I still have privileges to this POST, I will respond.

Angels around you all

Sheila


Just incase my post dissapears from the PA message board

[Ed Williams 3]

Since HB loves to "out" authors on the PA board who don't step in time to the tune he's playing, I thought it might be appropriate to cast a few thoughts out here in cyberland regarding him and his situation. Read through the following, and form your own conclusions...

1. How does HB rate reviews like the following for "Crispy" on Amazon from the head guy at Publish America?

Very funny!, April 3, 2002
Reviewer: willem meiners from Cedar Rapids, IA USA
The author is sharp witted, which sometimes makes him enemies. The book is fast paced, which can only make him friends. Crispy is funny, original, and just great entertainment. Smoky and Spider invent things out of the blue, and at some point you almost want them get caught by bad Chuck.
I bought this book because I know the author, not personally, but from reading his diatribes on various message boards. I like where he's coming from, rock bands and all, and I just adore his capacity to rave and rant and say anything outrageous while always staying true to basic issues like love and loyalty. H.B. Marcus is a good man who wrote a good book. Both the author and his work are highly recommended!

2. How does someone get an expense paid trip to the recent PA conference to lead a session on writing humor when he has such poor book sales? Last time I checked, out of 2200 some odd PA books on Amazon, "Crispy" was ranked 400 something, and "The Joe Schmoe Show" was up in the thousands.

3. A recent quote off the PA boards from HB:

"If you do good, I do good. It's as simple as that."

I wonder just what exactly that means....

I have a simple challenge for the board sensors over at the PA Message Boards - prove me wrong. Put down, in writing, for all the PA authors to see, that HB Marcus doesn't draw a dime from PA, not as an employee, a contract employee, an independent contractor, or whatever. Prove me wrong, if you can....if I'm right, all you PA authors need to take a hard, hard look at what sort of organization you're supporting with both your hard work and dollars...

[FM St George]

well, all one can hope for is that a lot of the PAvidians take a long hard look at themselves and the company they're supporting... given the treatment of their fellow authors, I'd not be surprised to see a major exodus away from PA.

we'll never know it, of course - the censors at the boards won't allow goodbye notes and if they're smart the ones leaving won't annouce it and sneak away to avoid the psychopathic ravings that would no doubt follow such an annoucement...

I'd say this has been a major blow to PA generally in their public image... no one in their right minds would accept a contract with PA after reading the rambling diatribes and ravings of a few of their "spokesmen"...

so it goes...

[qatz]

Please note that I just posted an announcement thread in the board by that name, dealing with PA/AH/EH. It has the same name as this post. It goes more or less along the lines of, "I am available to accept writer clients from anywhere in the world who feel they have been harmed by the practices of Publish America, AmErica House, Erica House, or any related organization, whether by libel, breach of contract, abusive business practices, or otherwise ..." Details are available there, or from me. E pluribus unam.

Eric Biggs

[James D Macdonald]

What's the new publishing company being mentioned <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9378.htm" target="_new">here</a>?

Is it the same as Behler Publications?

I'm utterly confused, though I'm looking at the car wreck with a kind of sick fascination....

[emeraldcite]

Behler Publications

this was also something that HB covered in one of the now mysteriously deleted posts. Although he didn't mention it by name, he was saying that lynn had something to do with starting this company and trolled the pa boards to bring in more authors. something to that effect. from what i gathered, that's what he's talking about.

[Dodgem James]

"Dave, I'm really uncomfortable with the copyright aspects of reposting entire PA threads."

Relax James, PA believes posts have public rights so long as they appear on more than one site.

James

[Dodgem James]

"Dodgy James, Dave Kuzminski has been a good guy and a benefactor to the writing community for years and years."

Much like PA he's only a good guy so long as you stay a PEvidian.

Dave doesn't like those who aren't blind to his shenanigans.
DJ

[CWGranny]

Gosh, thought for a minute DJ was stepping up to take a position on the present shenanigans at the PA board -- sort of a "I found my 'nads and now I'm standing" kind of thing...but no, of course not. He just wanted to take a jab at Dave.

How 'bout that Marcus...does ya proud to be a PA supporter, doesn't he, James?

Oh well.

[FM St George]

well, if there's a good side to any of this, it's that a LOT of PA authors are seeing the true side of PublishAmerica - that they're unprofessionals who allow personal attacks to go on and on and on as long as it benefits the company. Their pit bull HB illustrates everything that should put you off going with PA - he's vulgar, rude and has already helped one would-be client to turn away from PA thanks to his diatribes and rantings and ravings...

not bad for a weekend's work, eh?

:P

as for DJ - well, he wants to keep straddling the fence so let him... anyone who wants to keep HB as a friend is welcome to him, believe me!

:D

[HapiSofi]

Dodgem, "______ doesn't like those who aren't blind to his shenanigans" is one of those near-perfect content-free generic comebacks, like "tu quoque" or "the lurkers support me in e-mail."

The idea of Dave Kuzminski as a covert Machiavellian schemer does have a certain surreal charm, but I trust you don't expect me to believe it. If you do, you are much mistaken.

[Deejay816]

James - As far as I know, the new publisher listed in the PA thread you noted is not the same as Behler, which was started by Lynn Price and her husband Fred. There is a rather long, rambling thread over at Mindsight in which both Lynn and Fred were generous enough to answer many, many questions I asked about their company. If you want to read it, you will have to do some scrolling, but here is the link:

www.mindsightseries.com/d...1079370449 (http://www.mindsightseries.com/discus/messages/6/3100.html?1079370449)

Deejay

[James D Macdonald]

Could someone please pass to Fred and Lynn that they can beat digital printing prices by going offset with print runs lots lower than 2,000 copies?

If they're planning initial press runs of 250, they might check places like this: <a href="http://www.countrypressinc.com/" target="_new">www.countrypressinc.com/</a>.

They can compare prices with Lightning Source for the same 250 copies.

I wish them luck.

[DaveKuzminski]

Contrary to Dodgem James' comments, P&E has never counted anyone as good or bad because they did or didn't like P&E. There are some good agencies and publishers out there that P&E doesn't recommend because our stated criteria for recommendations are based upon policies and business behavior that can be rated and not upon whether we think someone is good or bad.

PublishAmerica didn't receive their initial "not recommended" rating from P&E based upon their attempts at extortion. It was based solely upon offering what was then an extremely bad contract. They went on to earn a "strongly not recommended" rating because of their extortion attempts and smear campaigns. The minor improvements in their contract have not been sufficient to balance what they offer.

Numerous agencies and publishers have acceptable or "recommended" ratings from P&E despite having public opinions that differ. I can also state no agency or publisher has ever been rated negatively for having rejected anyone, including anyone working at P&E.

In the meantime, Dodgem James, how are your sales? Mine are fine because they're handled by my publishers. Can you say the same about your publisher?

[AC Crispin]

For those who asked what might be written in a letter to the Maryland Attorney General's office, I posted some thoughts on the "take it outside board."

If anyone wants to copy that post and re-post it over here, I'd be grateful. My comp won't do that, don't know why.

-Ann C. Crispin

[bluwinteryfox]

Here it folks. Thank you Ann.


If I were a PA author and going to write a letter to the Maryland Attorney General's office, I guess what I'd complain about would be stuffl like the following, adding in any personal information as it applies to the complaint, as appropriate:

1. False advertising.

a. PA claims to be a "traditional publisher" and they are demonstrably not.

b. PA claims their contracts are "standard" and they are demonstrably not.

c. PA claims they edit books, and they don't.

d. PA claims the books they publish will be available in brick and mortar bookstores, on the shelves, and they're not.

2. Deceptive or fraudulent practices/breach of contract.

a. Any examples of PA making promises via their author services staff that were never carried out. (For example, encouraging authors to try and schedule booksignings, only to have the books be unavailable.)

b. Rude, contemptuous communications from PA staff that basically refuse to address reasonable questions, etc.

3. Any hanky panky with the royalties paid. I've seen complaints from people who KNOW they sold X books at a booksigning, only to not have those books turn up on their royalty statement.

4. Any "semantic games" where PA attempts to deliberately mislead an author in their communications.

Stuff like that.

-Ann

P.S.

I can't port this post to the Bewares board, but if someone wants to re-post it there, I'd be grateful.

[qatz]

Thanks to Ann for those thoughts.

Please note that I just posted an announcement thread in the board by that name, dealing with PA/AH/EH. It has the same name as this post. It goes more or less along the lines of, "I am available to accept writer clients from anywhere in the world who feel they have been harmed by the practices of Publish America, AmErica House, Erica House, or any related organization, whether by libel, breach of contract, abusive business practices, or otherwise ..." Details are available there, or from me. E pluribus unam.

Eric Biggs, Esq.

[emeraldcite]

does one with PA retain the e-publishing and foreign rights to their books? In other words, could those who published with PA (disgruntled ones) possibly e-pub their text to compete with the printed version?

or are those rights gone too...

[DaveKuzminski]

Having received and viewed a recent copy of PA's contract (one of several I have received over the years), I can state that PA takes all the publishing rights they can even though they may never use those. Forget selling your book to an overseas market like you can with a traditional, legitimate, royalty-paying publisher offering more than a token one-dollar advance. Those rights are taken by PA for that one-dollar advance.

Like I've stated before, PublishAmerica has a poor contract. Strongly not recommended.

[emeraldcite]

i vaguely remember a discussion on rights over in the take it outside board, but i couldn't find them. also, i wasn't sure if the newer contracts were changed in any way. poor poor authors.

thanks for the refresher dave!

[Ed Williams 3]

...here's HB preaching the gospel over on the PA boards...

"Then of course there's that 7 year deal with the contract. A new author can't have a realistic chance with anything other publishers offer. PA gives you a chance to establish a fan base. The average person doesn't have that kind of time with promoting at another publisher. If your book isn't selling off the shelves in a couple months with other publishers, they pull it and you have to try establishing yourself while in out of print-like status.

I've met a lot of authors since I've been with PA that chose this publisher over deals on the table with others. I've seen established authors go with PA. That's why I know I made the right choice. Taking a sequel somewhere else and starting all over doesn't make sense."

I would love to know just who these "established authors' are...further in the thread someone references Random House as one of the publishing houses authors have left to go with PA....

[James D Macdonald]

<a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9436.htm" target="_new">http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9436.htm</a>

Good quotes:

... He [the events manager at Books-a-Million] said that they changed their policy about a year ago on recieving POD titles. Even if they were regional. My book is now released and the books can't be bought at Books-A-Million like I thought.... Have yall been facing this same problem? I've seen some crappy books on their shelves that looked like they had been there since the 70's. He said that's why they had to change their policy.... I even told them that if they'd order just 2 copies, that if they didn't sell, I'd buy them back at their cost. Problem is, they won't even order it....

.......

Same here in Lawrenceville, GA.... I offered to buy the books and stock them on consignment...no dice....



I feel sorry for those guys. They believed what PA told them. Two more happy authors on their way to discovering reality.

[emeraldcite]

anyone following this thread?

www.publishamerica.com/cg...n/9418.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9418.htm)

maybe this should be a lesson to authors about using real names.

here are the reviews (they are particularly nasty)

www.publishamerica.com/sh...sp?id=3174 (http://www.publishamerica.com/shopping/shopreviewlist.asp?id=3174)

it's an interesting tale...now only if they could spell...

[Sonetka]

Those threads are spooky... there's definitely a story in there somewhere, though possibly not the one the author originally meant to tell.

One of the posters comments that they can't possibly sue for libel, but in my highly inexpert opinion, some of the accusations she's making in her book sound pretty serious; black magic practice and so forth. I mean, whether you believe in that stuff or not, very few people want to be associated in print as practicing it. Wouldn't at least some of it be grounds for libel? Something she and PA should have looked into before publishing the book, I'd say.

[emeraldcite]

I think the problem is in the fact that she is pawning it as an autobiography, as non-fiction.

Now, if she was marketing it as a fictional autobiography, which in my opinion would make it infinitely more interesting although it is only the mere idea of a premise, she probably would have less of a problem.

her family may have a case, if they could prove that they were somehow injured by the publication of the book. however, since they overestimated the distribution and money involved with a PA book, she may not have much to worry about.

it seems her family thinks she received some kind of half-million dollar advance, or some other equally ludicrous amount. she may not be far off on her appraisal of her family in that title, but in her presentation she may find some legal difficulties.

overall, i would rate the reviews a solid 4 out of 5 stars. they are exquisitely entertaining. almost made me want to buy the book...but as a matter of principle, i won't.

[HapiSofi]

Emeraldcite, maybe I've misjudged them from the brief samples available at the PA site, but I think her family sounds atrocious, the kind of characters you couldn't make up if you tried. If she's any kind of storyteller, they're furnishing her with rich material for at least a short story or article, maybe an entire comic novel, about what happened with her family when she published her first book.

Besides, if they're really as white-trashy as all that, I can't imagine they'll bring a successful civil suit for defamation or whatever. What lawyer is going to take on a long, tedious civil case on a contingency basis when the targets of the suit are an author of modest means, and a book published by PA? I believe the relevant legal doctrine here is (I know I'm going to misspell this) ex rapibus non sanguinem: from turnips, no blood.

[sfsassenach]

of crazy relatives who can't spell, and don't know the difference between slander and libel [or fiction].

[qatz]

ex rapibus non sanguinem

I learned a new one!

[qatz]

sometime i wonder why i bother. Q

[Ed Williams 3]

I have only approached BAM so far. I just recieved my books that I ordered and I've only gotten thus far as of now. I thought BAM was the best Southern Regional Chain. Others like Barnes and Noble, looks more like a wish. I just know that Barnes and Noble will be more snobbish and say no. I will attempt them, expecting a no and hoping for a yes. If we can't get our books in the easiest store of all,(BAM) it seems worthless to try. I know that I need to visit Independent book stores. I'm sure I'll have better luck. If anything, I bought 250 of my books. I've only got to sell 250 more. I know I've sold several already. I don't know the #'s of course, but I'm pretty well known is several cities in Alabama. I've already had my press release in 5 different major cities newspapers. I've spent more time on promotion than I have visiting book stores. That's my mistake. If BAM won't shelve it and there is a big demand for my book, I bet BAM might change their minds huh? We'll see.

....you don't know whether to feel sad for these people or wonder what in the hell they are thinking...

[James D Macdonald]

....you don't know whether to feel sad for these people or wonder what in the hell they are thinking...

Feel sad for them. They believed PA's explicit and implicit promises.

[Ed Williams 3]

Subject: Beginning of the end


Message:
On the horizon appears to be the beginning of the end with PA and myself. Despite the high respect I have for the company and the wonderful job they are doing for authors, I received an email from them yesterday deeming myself unpublishable because I am living in Spain.

Ironically, I have been here in Spain awhile and have published a book with them under this situation. That book has been met with some success. "Torn" was the #1 seller for PA from December 5, 2003 through January 8, 2004 on Amazon. It currently sits at #69 on the sales chart there for PA. It also sits at #12 on Barnes & Noble and has been in the #1 position various times.

Despite this track record, the handicap of living overseas, serving the country through a military base, has now dampen my future with this noble company. Unfortunate, but the cruel reality of business. I am unable to attend book signings and other promotional events to further increase sales.

So, as this regrettable turn of events unfolds, I want it to be clear that I harbor no hard feelings for PA. On the contrary, I wish them continued success and understand that they must hold the interest of the company above that of the authors. It is the logical approach of any company that wishes to be successful. However, by doing such, I now have to focus on other avenues for publication. It is a path I had preferred to avoid but now am forced to travel.

I only hope that PA permits this post to stand because I want it to be understood that I respect their decision, although hold my opinion in silence on whether I am in agreement or not. Still, I do not want anyone to be misled into thinking that I am upset with PA because I am not.

Sincerely,

Frederick A. Babb
www.frederickbabb.com

[djclawson]

I was wondering something. How much does a PA author make per book sale? And how many books would a PA author have to sell to recoup their loses from the set-up fee?

In other words, how many of them even make back their initial investment?

[FM St George]

depends on what you consider to be the "startup" investment...

I make 8%, more or less, on my book that sells for $12.95 on Amazon.com and $9.95 off the PA site - $1.03 and $0.80 respectively. Problem is, if someone from a bookstore decides to do me a favor and purchase them at the special discount for business, then they're buying them at $7.77 and *I* get only 8% of THAT... being $0.62 per book then...

needless to say, the "big" money is in trying to resell books out of the back of your car after making an investment of a few hundred dollars, since PA gives lousy discounts to authors to start with. No one's getting rich at those royalties, even if they convince traditional bookstores to purchase them; and every royalty payment period there's a lot of disgruntled peeps who discover the horrible truth about their royalties.

now, how much did I invest? Not much, really - I didn't take them up on their initial "buy now!" offer and lose a few hundred on my book to start with; I purchased a domain site and converted it later into my own website for all my writing. I purchased a few books for a book fair, but I think it's pretty well nothing compared to the PA authors who hire publicists and the like to sell books that are usually unsellable...

in other words, PA may not get you in the front door with a bill for services rendered, but they'll get you in the back by making you buy your own copies to try and make a decent dollar...

as usual, jmo - ymmv...

[djclawson]

So, essentially, you need to sell more than 300 books to recoup your initial investment.

[emeraldcite]

and only a handful have sold anywhere near that...

[FM St George]

I still don't understand what you consider to be the "initial investment"... sounds like you're confusing PA with the other POD's that require money upfront.

with PublishAmerica there's no money upfront other than the $30 you send in for a copyright, putting you technically $29 in the hole from the start - after that, you spend as much as you'd like, and PA encourages you to spend a LOT by offering author discounts and so forth... in fact, I'm pretty sure that even the best PA author is coming out in the red every which way since there's practically no way to earn a profit with the above scenario...

as I said before - at least with other POD's they get the money upfront and you feel that you're at least a customer paying for a product - with PA they sneak it in the back way with you being so "thankful" that you "made the cut" that you'll put up with incompetence and bad everything and then pay them for copies that you won't be able to resell...

[FM St George]

this is too good not to share...

home.earthlink.net/~bignerpie/ (http://home.earthlink.net/~bignerpie/)

click on the LiveJournal link - this is one of PA's EDITORS....

*falls over laughing*

please, please... oh, Lordy... please...

[writerangel]

Oh, mercy!!! :eek

Isn't it unethical to post excerpts from author submissions like this without the express written or verbal permission of the writer? ... And SHE'S MAKING FUN OF THEM for goodness sakes!!! :(

How unethical!!!

[emeraldcite]

i'm glad she did, although it is unethical. but it's nice to see the interworkings of PA and refreshing to know that they don't accept everything...

[FM St George]

... and also they seem to be letting anyone and their dog "edit" the manuscripts that come in....

sheesh....

[James D Macdonald]

I hope that no one goes there from here to flame the poor young lady. That would be a pity; whatever one may think of the company she works for she's doing her best, and it would close a fascinating window.

[sfsassenach]

would make of her utter contempt for the PA writers.

<sigh> I'm sure they'd spin it to prove that PA doesn't accept everything and that they're the creme de la creme.

[FM St George]

I'm not flaming the woman, but what she's doing is, at the least, unethical.

If I saw MY work being reposted and mocked in a public area I'd be ripping mad... they may not be good writers, but she should be respecting their privacy and not reposting it or commenting on it publically... send them the requisite rejection notice, but this is just mean and nasty. The writers deserve better than that, no matter what quality their work.

it's unprofessional and immature, to say the least... and she should know better.

'nuff said.

[sfsassenach]

she wouldn't be a PA "editor."

[FM St George]

what's sadder is over at another board where I posted this info I've been ripped a new one for doing it... somehow it's not really her fault and this is the equivalent of cheap gossip and we ALL do it, so what's our business in looking at this woman's site?

and, after all, it's always a PA author out to slime PA so it can't possibly be true...

I swear, sometimes I do want to pull the plug on this computer... http://ghettobaby.net/Emoticons/082403emotes/throwputer.gif [hehehe - BW01]

*grumble*

[sfsassenach]

Spend your energy on something useful.

[FM St George]

whups...

think the site's gone... well, obviously SOMEONE over at PA has a shred of decency...

:P

[emeraldcite]

even the livejournal has been trashed. that was quick. obviously someone trolls the boards...lol you might be able to search it on google and pick it up in the cache.

[writerangel]

Thank God, it's gone!!! The prospective authors may not have been the best writers in the world, but they deserve their dignity!!!! It was ENTIRELY unethical and unprofessional of that woman as a supposed EDITOR of a publishing company to do that.

I TOTALLY, TOTALLY agree with FM St. George and her perspective on what happened. I couldn't have phrased it better myself. I too would have been furious to find my work posted in so public and contemptible a manner if I had submitted it under the assumption that it was being submitted to a PROFESSIONAL publishing house!!! >:

In addition, FM St. George, I saw on the other site where you posted this information where you were trashed. Let me assure you that you were absolutely CORRECT in bringing that DISGRACEFUL display of a lack of ethics, a lack of class, and a lack of professionalism to the attention of the writing community at large. You are right, some just don't get it. I wager though that if it were THEIR work that was being trashed in that same context that a light bulb would come on with all due haste and speed.

The woman's employer should also deal with her breach of ethics in a swift and and corrective manner ... that is IF her lack of integrity is not indicative of their company culture.

(To all: Please forgive any errors in this post. I wrote it in a hurry and I'm smoking mad!!! >: )

[sfsassenach]

""I try to remember that books get written by writing them.
No amount of brooding, sulking, procrastinating
or self-flagellation puts words on the page;
they appear only by bowing your head down and doing the work."
-- Lily King

I like this writerangel! A more elegant way to say BIC-HOK.

[FM St George]

thanks, writerangel - I never claimed to be perfect, but I think we all should at least aspire to try and do the right thing when we can - and I had to speak out for those poor writers who were being trashed by this stupid girl's commentary.

the defense being given on the other site is that they weren't identified, so there's no harm done - but the fact is that they could, conceivably, trip over that LJ note and be hurt emotionally because of the mockery that she made of their work - it may not be good, it may not even be readable, but those people have their dignity and they deserve to keep it.

I think, personally, that most of the naysayers on the other site think that because it's a PA editor that I'm bashing PA first and then the girl second - of course, that's the limited POV that I expect from the PAvidians, so I'm not surprised.

it's just WRONG in so many ways, what she did... and if she loses her job, I won't sleep any worse tonight because of it - it's unprofessional and unethical to do such a thing and I don't regret saying what I said for a second.

there... but for the grace of God go I.

'nuff said.

again.

beep!

thanks again...

[calynnster]

I haven't posted here before, but I just wanted to reiterate what I said elsewhere:
Wow. I find the whole thing in bad taste and unprofessional. Abusing one's position as acquisitions editor to ridicule a query or submission in a public forum reduces her and her company's credibility. Every submission should be treated with honor and respect. Someone has taken the time and passion to put their thoughts to paper, no matter how poorly done, and for one in a position of authority to treat that work in such a cavalier manner is demeaning. I didn't read the site since it appears to have been pulled, thankfully.

Lynn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lynn
lynnprice.net

[FM St George]

thanks, Lynn.

I just blew the board off with a final note pointing out that sometimes doing the Right Thing is exactly that - not part of a grand conspiracy to bring PA down or to be nasty; but just to do the Right Thing.

how they can justify her actions is beyond me - I just tossed the bookmark into my recycle bin - I cannot and will not associate with people who have such weak values that they can justify what that woman did. Now they're arguing over whether excerpts are the same as manuscripts and queries and if it really matters.

tell you this - if I found any of MY query letters or excerpts from my manuscript on someone's LJ with mocking commentary, I'd be upset... and not able to blow it off with "well, it's just gossip"...

*shakes head*

buh-bye other board... I will have nothing to do with them again.

[James D Macdonald]

The young lady struck me as very young indeed, and dreadfully inexperienced. She'd never worked in publishing before in any capacity, and hadn't a clue.

What got her probably wasn't her public mockery of rejected manuscripts. (You want to mock one of my unpublished works in public? Contact my agent to arrange "public mockery rights." I'm sure you can work something out.) What got her was probably her referring to Meiners as "weird."

I found it interesting that she personally bought the line about giving writers a chance. I also found it interesting that after being there only six months she was asked to write the introduction to the Insiders Guide to Publicity (or whatever they call it). That means she was one of the best they have.

It was a pity to lose this window into their office. I found it fascinating.

[calynnster]

Get out...she called Meiners 'weird'? :rollin

priceless1

[vstrauss]

I'm sorry to have missed the "window"--I got online today too late to see what all the fuss is about.

There's some talk on the PA message board about a new PA rah-rah e-mail about how "big house" authors are coming to PA or PA is recruiting at the "big houses" or something like that. Does anyone know what that's about?

- Victoria

[calynnster]

Here 'tis, Victoria.

Dear author,

They sure know where to join a quality crowd!

Although it is not unusual for PublishAmerica authors to have other traditional publishing houses requesting to contract their next book, it is just as common for authors from other well-established houses to come and join PublishAmerica.

Today we are welcoming the following authors in your midst:
*Novelist James W. Bennett came from Simon and Schuster with "Harvey Potter Does Dallas". Mr. Bennett was also published by Scholastic, of Harry Potter fame.
*Richard C. Mears joins us from Simon and Schuster as well. PublishAmerica recently released his book "Anubis Rex".
*Yolanda Smith comes to us from Random House. PublishAmerica will soon release her book "Worry Free Retirement Living".
*And two weeks ago, we also reached an agreement with a top award winning, world-renowned author, who will come to us from Harper Collins. We expect the contract to be signed this week, and an announcement to be made soon.

All this is happening at a time when more authors than ever are joining your ranks. To us, this is plain astonishing and amazing. Just a little over four years ago we built PublishAmerica with hopes to create opportunities for new authors. We figured we'd consider ourselves very lucky if we could help up to, who knows, maybe a thousand authors. How wrong we were. Today, almost seven thousand (7000!) authors call PublishAmerica home. Some are new, others are seasoned, some are relatively unknown, others are celebrities.

With so many new books and so much talent to choose from, we are currently offering gift and specialty stores a special volume discount schedule, and, as always, we are extending the same special discount also to our own authors:

50-99 copies: 40 pct discount
100-149 copies: 45 pct discount
150-249 copies: 50 pct discount
250+ copies: 55 pct discount

This offer expires April 15, phone orders only. Please call us at 301 695 1707.
Thank you!

[vstrauss]

Thanks, Lynn.

I just had to check these authors' names out, because...well...that's the kind of gal I am. So I looked them up on Amazon. As you might expect, things aren't quite as portrayed by PA.

- James W. Bennett: I found seven or eight books from him, from Scholastic and Holiday House among others; the most recent came out in 2003. So he's a well-published author. From the title of his PA book, I'm betting he whipped up a Harry Potter parody that no one else wanted to publish. Hope PA ran it by their lawyers. (Wait a minute. What am I saying?)

- Richard C. Mears: I found one book by him (other than "Anubis Rex"), pubbed by Simon & Schuster in 1980. In publishing years, that's about a century ago. My guess: for whatever reason he didn't follow up on his writing career, and now is getting back into the game, but either has had difficulty finding a publisher or hasn't done his research.

- Yolanda Smith: I can only find one book by an author with this name, due out this coming April from Pilgrim Press (an ecumenical publisher). Nothing from Random House.

I'll be looking forward to finding out who that HarperCollins author is (hint: it's not me :lol ).

Seriously, I don't think it's totally beyond the bounds of possibility that a publisher like PA might be working to raise its image by offering more standard book agreements to attract established authors. But somehow I kind of doubt that's the case, given that this happy news precedes an enticement for authors to purchase their own books.

- Victoria

[James D Macdonald]

Anyone want to put a lot of money on how fast any of these boasted-of authors get banned from the PA message board?

[James D Macdonald]

*Yolanda Smith comes to us from Random House. PublishAmerica will soon release her book "Worry Free Retirement Living".

This is fascinating. According to the Library of Congress, no one named "Yolanda Smith" has published with Random House, and no book called "Worry Free Retirement Living" has been copyrighted. I'd been under the impression that all PA books were copyrighted (by the author, at the author's expense), and thus "listed" in the (copyright office of the) Library of Congress....

[sfsassenach]

in Anytown, USA.

[James D Macdonald]

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Why would you want to go with a BIG house publisher when some of the big house aothors are coming to PA???????<hr></blockquote> asks "na-na" over at <a href="http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/main/9555.htm" target="_new">PublishAmerica</a>.

Let's assume that the ones listed in PA's letter are the only ones they have, because the ones they list are dubious enough.

Why are those BIG house published authors coming to PA? Well, Harvey Potter Does Dallas may well be legally unpublishable, just based on the title. What does PA's indemnity clause look like?

Richard C. Mears is hardly joining PA from Simon & Schuster. His sole published book came out from a Simon & Schuster imprint twenty-four years ago. The book that's coming now from PublishAmerica, Anubis Rex, was created by Mr. Mears in 1986, copyrighted in 1989, revised in 2001. Has it been batting around the slushpiles of New York for the last eighteen years, or has it been gracing his desk drawer? No way to tell, but I seriously doubt that there was an offer from S&S (or anyone else) on the table that he turned down to go with PA instead.

Yolanda Smith, Random House author, may not exist. A search of authors on the Random House site doesn't turn her up. A search of the Library of Congress catalog doesn't turn her up. A search of the Copyright office doesn't turn her up. A search of various used-book sites doesn't turn her up. Title? Date? ISBN? [Note: there is a Yolanda Smith, a professor at Yale, who has a forthcoming book from Pilgrim Press (http://www.pilgrimpress.com/). Pilgrim Press and Random House aren't affiliated, and retirement living seems to be well outside Professor Smith's areas of interest.]

Given PA Infocenter's reputation for truth and accuracy (http://pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessageRange?topicID=190.t opic&start=161&stop=180), I doubt that the "top award winning, world-renowned author, who will come to us from Harper Collins" exists either. Let me know when the announcement is made, but I'm not holding my breath. They'll leave the impression that this has happened, and if anyone ever calls them on it, they'll say that the deal fell through at the last minute or something.

[djclawson]

From Jenna: Sorry, DJ. Some of this was funny, some of it very wise, but a great deal of it was just plain mean. And I'm really not into personally attacking our fellow writers and putting them up for ridicule.

[darbyj]

djclawson,

Lynn Barry did not run the lending library or have it out with HB. Lynn Price did.

Lisa

[KivrinAngel]

I'd be interested to know who's journal that was. I like reading journals and that entry was fun.

Robin

[James D Macdonald]

A link to the original post would have been appreciated. (To import links when quoting, BTW, go to Show Source with your browser and copy from there.)

Meanwhile, this particular entry would have been better served by a) fact checking, and b) spell checking. The poster's grammar isn't all that great, either. When one is flaming someone else on spelling and grammar it would behoove the flamer to make darn sure his/her grammar and spelling are flawless.

I'm concerned with the length of the quote. The full entry seems to me to be a bit above fair use.

<hr>

As mentioned above, Lynn Price and Lynn Barry are two different people.

It's also worth mentioning that self-publishing, vanity publishing, and PoD publishing are different things.

Self-publishing is a business model. In self-publishing, the author sets up his/her own publishing company for the purpose of printing his/her own book(s). The way you can tell is that on the day the first book is printed, the author has paid, and the rights are owned by the writer.

Vanity publishing is a business model. In vanity publishing the author goes to a company and pays to have his/her book published. The way you can tell vanity publishing is that on the day the first book comes off the press, the author has paid, and the rights are owned by the publisher.

PoD is a business model. In Print (Publish) on Demand, no book is printed until an order for that book is in hand. This decreases the need for warehouse stock. Traditional publishers (e.g. Wildside) and vanity publishers (e.g. Xlibris) use the PoD model on top of their traditional or vanity model.

While PoD often uses digital printing technology (an IBM DocuTech machine, for example), it can use short-run offset printing as well.

Digital printing is often called "PoD," and PoD is often called "vanity" because they're often closely associated, but they are different.

[djclawson]

I have not linked to the original text because my journal is friends-only, to prevent getting slammed.

As for the typos, let me just say that writing the post totally wore me out, mainly because all of those samples were completely unbearable to read, and by the end of it I was too cranky to really go back and check for typos.

I apologize for factual errors. I got the Lynns messed up, and I do know the difference between self-publishing and PODs - I just consider them both "vanity."

I just wanted to bring things into perspective. I suppose it would be one thing if a couple people who were actually decent writers who got discouraged by the mounds of rejections required to endure in order to eventually get published and went instead to PODs. In other words, if HB Marcus had written the modern-day equivalent of Hamlet, maybe that would be in his favor. So I did some investigating and discovered that an overwhelming majority of the sample chapters are completely riddled with more spelling errors than my original post, more hackneyed than an episode of Scooby Doo, and/or just plain incomprehensible.

"His bruises have callous anymore." What? What did that even ORIGINALLY mean?

[DaveKuzminski]

Maybe he was trying to compete with "All your base are belong to us." ;)

Hope I quoted that message right that was posted in many places on the Internet.

[James D Macdonald]

Okay, djclawson, you're the original author of the piece? In that case, I withdraw my objection to your quoting it in full.

<hr>

It may be worth mentioning that PublishAmerica is nowhere near being the biggest PoD vanity press in the US. PA has, as of this afternoon, 2,392 titles listed at Amazon. This pales beside the 4,849 listed for iUniverse, 9,136 for Xlibris, and 15,430 for 1stBooks Library. I wonder what becomes of H. B. Marcus' arguments about getting in on the ground floor in the fastest growing publisher in America given those numbers?

[goomee]

djclawson:

I am going to give you some unsolicited and probably unwelcome advice. If you want many people to take you seriously when you're reviewing books or excerpts or what have you, leave off the personal attacks and just go on about the books. I have taken the liberty of singling out some of your more enlightening quotes and would like to tell you what I think of them.

***This is my view of everything West of Philly and east of California. I'm probably not that far off. It's all drunken hick anal probes and rites of passage.***

This is a stupid reason not to like a book. I am going to assume you don't consider any of Mark Twain's books to be any sort of literature.

***Lynn Barry, I've just got to sort of hint, out of the kindness of my heart, that maybe this is not the most flattering picture, and maybe you should use another.***

That has no bearing at all on her book.

***Allen Parker is one of those people so smiling and happy that you want to punch him. He's the kind of guy who probably gets work as a Mall Santa.***

Who cares? Again, that has no bearing on his book.

***Also, perhaps she shouldn't put her picture on the site.***

See the above two comments.

I assume you are not only the most intelligent, but most beautiful person on earth, too?

***Mike Richsecker has not let his totally odd last name get in the way of writing a brilliantly creative novel about heirs squabbling over some guy's inheritence.***

Why the comment about his name? Why? Why? Why?

***Look, I'm not saying there's not moving autobiographies out there - in fact, there are a ton. But this is Publish America, and that means he must have been rejected by traditional publishing houses for a reason.***

You are completely wrong there, as it has been established countless times before that there are many people who never sent anything to anyone but Publish America. I am one of those. I thought they were traditional and, therefore, signed with them. I'll admit I was so thrilled, I cried when I got their acceptance letter. I've never received a rejection letter from anyone.

***She's fat.***

Again, no bearing whatsoever on the quality of her book!!!!

***There's tons of other authors, and there'll all horribly bad, I assure you.***

How can you assure anyone of that when you haven't read all of them??

============

Now, I am not taking up for PA in anyway when I say those things, but their authors are human beings. They have feelings.

Maybe no one here thinks they deserve any sort of respect or common courtesy, because they were deceived or dumb enough, either way you want it, to sign with PA. My opinion differs, however.

I think all of the PA info would be alot more helpful if personal attacks on the author were left out of it.

Calling someone fat, making fun of their name or their photo, giving discriminatory commentary on their state or region, none of that in anyway says anything about the company (or the book).

However, it does go a long way to make the information and warnings look childish and spiteful.

[goomee]

change that "alot" to "a lot":smack

[vstrauss]

goomee, I'm with you. Thanks for saying it.

- Victoria

[SRHowen]

One of the worst crits I ever got was that since I was ndn I didn't understand how the world worked. I was told ndn's didn't drive Jaguars that they drove old beat up trucks. And the guy added that he thought I looked like a stripper in my photo on my blog site.

I can tell you what I did with his crit---but then I would have to delete my post, and wash my mouth with soap.

I have so far refrained from commenting on your post--the fact that an author is fat ect., has no bearing on their ability to write at all.

I am very saddened by the whole PA mess. What a grand idea to start with, a company run by writers for writers. It is too bad that it has not worked out and has turned into a grand scam.

The dang process of getting published is a tough and frustrating one, but the only way to get there is through hard work. HARD WORK persistence helps and willingness to look at your own work and say--THIS SUCKS big time, then learn to fix it.

Anyone who preys on dreams is in my opinion the lowest of the lowest. And every dang time I read another PA post I want to :head -- but the choice those authors made has nothing to do with body size, race, name ect.

They were out to realize the same dream the rest of us want. Publication, what they got was a end to the dream, for the most part. Sadly they will be stuck at the "my @#%$ is golden" stage, maybe forever.

I also applaud those who have walked away and are starting over. :thumbs

Shawn

[dgkgoldberg]

a few months ago a person posted over on another board about her PA book vis a vie her desire to get a photo of her self without spending much. She ended up buying a digital camera to get her spouse to take the picture.

It seems --- and I do not know this as I have never submitted to PA --- that the writer's pic on the back of the book is another hook that draws in the writer to believe that publication with PA is a big deal, sadly it seems to me that it is just another expense.

[goomee]

Victoria--

Thank you. I wasn't sure the reception my post would get.

After 3 years of reading messages about PA, it still amazes me that people think things like that get the point across.

I think it is very important that writers know what they're in for if they sign with PA. They need to know all the relevant information of what is and isn't going to be done for their book. They need to have a realistic idea of what they're up against.

Some of them will choose to ignore the information. Some of them will even remain forever happy with their decision to go with PA. Some of them will soon be looking for somewhere to "vent".

I just think things like that and other things on other boards, the PA board included, tend to clutter things up so much that the information is lost in what looks like an "us" and "them" battle that seems to have nothing to do with the company itself.

dgkgoldberg:

I think you're right about the pictures making it seem like a big deal. I have to say that before my book was even listed as available on amazon, I was banned from the board, and I had already realized I had not made a wise choice. However, it was still a big deal to hold my book and see my name and picture on it. It was the only expense I ever had and I say the thrill was probably worth the $7.00 it cost for the film and developing it.

I still rejoice however that PA is water under the bridge for me.

[Ed Williams 3]

"Message:
Ramblin:

If you are like a lot of the rest of us, you will send thousands of dollars to a crooked agent who will never send your work anywhere. After you figure that racket out, you'll try over the transom submissions to publishing houses, wait patiently for months...years...decades, all the time hopeful that something good will happen, but it doesn't.

Then again, maybe lightening will strike. They say it happens everyday, but it is unlikely, and of course, random. But, writing children's books, you are in a much more specific market.

It is an ugly business, full of ugly people, and if PA has given you a shot, my advice is that you remain loyal, and thank your lucky stars. It has been a nice ride for me. Not a lot of money, but certainly everything else that I was looking for has happened."

---In the end, and I know no one likes to hurt anyone's feelings, and I know some PA books are excellent reads, but many on many of the PA books the writing is of less than stellar quality. PA knows this, and knows there is a buck to be made by pandering to this group of people. What does it really cost them to spread the "us vs trad publishers" venom, and then reap the rewards from doing so? PA is like the government entitlement program of publishing, ie, "we'll publish you because you have a right to be published!".......

[Ed Williams 3]

Did y'all see where PA is hawking a September conference on Key West in September? $799 plus airfare, and the conference is themed around Ernest Hemingway. There must be money to be made in the conference business......

[peachee]

I'm probably the only "victim" who'll reply. I appreciate the fact that others publicly noted that this particular way of making an already well-made point might not have the best effect. I do feel quirkily honored, though, to be singled out. Hmmm. . . . I always figured my writing would bring me honors. But this? Gosh, who'd'a'thunk it?!

First, let me proclaim that I've never called myself a webmaster, or even a website builder w/talent. I'm relatively lousy, in fact. Since this appears one of DJ's biggest complaints about me, I'll be upfront. My picture is photo-shopped & fonts may be bolder than need be. I'm guilty.

As for "the number of books" I put out w/PA, that would be TWO. My 1st was published by Lederer Publishers (a small traditional specialty house in Baltimore), & my next (June-ish) w/Behler . . . yes, Behler, from the Lynn Price-of-PA-big-hoopla (& the Lending Library) fame. Are any of them Random House or Harper, etc? Nope.

Why'd I go the PA route? I knew exactly what I was getting into, contractually-speaking, when I signed w/them. I've been around the publishing block at least a few times. I was once signed by Al Zuckerman of The Writer's House in NYC but, alas, the book's time hadn't come & even he had to drop the idea. Those of us who DO know the score, & there are others besides me, who were published by PA, did so for various reasons. Me -- I'm quirky. I'm not mainstream. And while I'd love to have a big contract, I'm not going to just sit around & think about it. I'm going to publish, & be read. Period.

I refuse to publicly bash anyone or any institution on a public BB. My current thoughts about PA are known by PA, & others w/whom I've shared. The recent bashing that went on saddened me. Some very good people &, yes, excellent writers, were defamed & hurt. Totally unnecessary to do that. That's why, to me, DJ's message was just as irresponsible. As has been mentioned here, personal attributes have absotively no bearing on one's ability -- or lack thereof -- to write. I'm the creator & Sr. Editor of The Cutting Edge:

www.cutting-edge-ezine.com (http://www.cutting-edge-ezine.com)

& see a LOT of work cross my desk that has needed, well, more work. Some I decided not to post. Some I've posted, after making well-rec'd suggestions.

But you know what? Not one of those writers are anything but sincere in their DESIRE to write well. And that's what I don't believe in squelching. I'll have no part of that. One person mentioned in DJ's tirade sent something I refused to post. It wasn't acceptable on many levels. Yet the seed was there. Rather than say, "Gosh, why'd you send me THIS?" I tried to encourage this person to send something that would highlight strong points. A month or so later, I hesitantly opened an e-mail, almost afraid, & was blessed w/a beautiful piece of work w/strong promise.

I daresay none of us were born writing eloquently. I also stand by my determination not to intentionally hurt anyone w/public or, hopefully, private words. One thing I WILL say publicly about PA, though. There are many writers who just aren't there yet, & PA does them a disservice by publishing them at this point in their journey.

DJ, you've insulted some very kind, well-meaning folks w/your message & it just wasn't necessary, me notwithstanding. I've been writing for publication -- & $$ -- for over 15 yrs. Whether or not you like my website, or writing, for that matter, doesn't phase me. But to publicly insult folks as a means to try & shoot down their dream, well, that to me is just plain . . . not nice.

Blessings to all.

-- Linda Alexander
www.i-am-america.net (http://www.i-am-america.net) (yes, this is the bad one)
www.authorsden.com/lindajalexander (http://www.authorsden.com/lindajalexander)

Reviewer for:
www.theromancestudio.com (http://www.theromancestudio.com)

Columnist:
www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/17370 (http://www.suite101.com/welcome.cfm/17370)

[Deejay816]

Not that I post here often, but when I do I don't want anyone to confuse me with the DJ who has posted all of this PA info. Thanks!

Deejay

[James D Macdonald]

I've been saying for a long time that among the PA books there are perhaps hundreds, certainly dozens, that could have been traditionally published if the author hadn't chosen to go (or been mislead into going) the vanity route.

[HapiSofi]

I know this is going to sound weird, but I'd like to speak in defense of that young lady who'd been "editing" at PA and started posting especially awful bits of PA authors' prose on her Live Journal.

I acknowledge that it was wrong of her, though far more senior editors at far more respectable houses have fallen into the same error. I wouldn't call it unethical, if the excerpts were short and the authors weren't identified. Unethical would be something more like selling an article making fun of unpublished authors, and in it quoting large recognizable chunks of submissions as examples of hopeless submissions. What this kid at PA did, I'd be more inclined to call "improper and unkind," and leave it at that.

Give her a break. The girl didn't have any editorial background or training before PA hired her. I think she must have really wanted to be an editor. I suspect she was being paid a pittance. And once she was there at PA, she still wouldn't have gotten any editorial training. Who at PA could train her? How can you teach someone what an editor does, at a house where 90% of that stuff is never done? How do you teach someone to select and edit books at a house which will publish practically anything, and which doesn't allot enough man-hours to make real editing possible?

You have to ask yourself what she was actually doing. What we know about the PA text production cycle is that edits are rushed and perfunctory. Erroneous homophones and near-miss words get left in. Queries are few and far in between. Structural editing is unheard-of. As I imagine it, what this kid was doing was sitting there, all day and every day, chomping through bad text as fast as she could read. Which is brutal work. I know; I've done it. But my task was still easier than hers, because I could let myself admit that what I was working on were seriously bad books. I truly can't imagine doing that kind of grinding text work if I thought the books I was working on were publishable in any meaningful sense.

She did. That's the thing. We know the kid had bought the line about PA idealistically giving new authors a chance. That means she thought she was working on real books. And sure, some of the books no doubt were real; but a lot of them would have been way, way bad, unpublishably bad by any normal calculation.

I'll let you in on a shocking fact: the natural reaction of a human being faced with acres of direly bad prose is to make fun of it. Slushreaders always do, especially the youngsters. They can't help it. The sheer weirdness of truly bad books gets to you. You find yourself reading particularly ripe bits aloud to your fellows, because you can't believe what you're seeing, and you don't want to be alone in the universe of your disbelief with only this awful book for company.

To get some idea of what it's like, go here (http://www1.xlibris.com/bookstore/book_excerpt.asp?bookid=104). Read it slowly to savor the logic and imagery of the opening paragraphs, the unexpected asides and unlikely juxtapositions, and the sudden advent of Gunther the gorilla. For extra credit, try to figure out why the main character couldn't wash his own anus, and how a gorilla who'd previously had no language has nevertheless managed to acquire a name. Now imagine having to rapidly read one book after another like that, each one of them bad in a different way. You'd better believe you'd giggle.

But this kid is working at PA, so it would be one of those "Emperor's New Clothes" kind of transgressions for her to say, "Hey! Any of you notice these books really suck?" So that's out. She doesn't even have slushreader's ultimate defense, which is to stop reading and send the book back to its author with a polite note. She's having to plow through the things, beginning to end, and she's having to act like they're real.

She's got to blow off steam somewhere. The only thing about the story I don't understand is how she held out for as long as she did before she started making fun of the books in her Live Journal.

You guys are writers, so you'll be thinking about how it would feel to have someone making fun of your book in LJ. Try to get out of that headspace for a minute and consider the possibility that the girl's being exploited as thoroughly as any PA author. If you can't eke out a little charity in any other way, go to one of the online publishing sites. Set a one-hour timer. Start reading. Don't allow yourself to stop until the timer tells you you're done. See how you feel when it's over.

[Ed Williams 3]

....some latest quotes from Mr. Marcus, and they speak for themselves...

"All this isn't enough to say what an author is or what freedom of speech is. I want high school kids to go: "I can do this!" I want to reach the people who are force-fed what they don't like in school. I want them to have a party of a time reading me crap. I'm already getting a lotof kids trying to submit book reports on my stuff and getting scathed for it. The powers that be have already removed 'Cat on a hot tin roof' and titles similar in nature because 'a baby's arm holding an apple' isn't propper for education."

"YO HO HO! I'm gonna rock your world."

"Who do you think I try so hard for? I don't know what I'm doing. I'm not naturally funny. I don't know how to write. BUT I do give it everything I've got. I try everything to cover all the bases because it's potential income after I'm gone. I want JB and Montana to release books every year or so after I'm worm food. That would make me happy."

" When I'm dead people won't skip a beat. They still get a regular infusion of HB madness with my books. I have detailed files on how to talk like me. JB did it once on the chat board to try it. We've worked the bugs out since then. How do you know I'm not me right now? If you check the posts, I might have handed the torch over four days after the convention."

"Sure, together we made HB Marcus. In reality, I almost had a heart attack doing a seminar! That's when it became clear that I had to tone it down. I can't be him live anymore. Anyone expecting that maniacal laugh and stomping foot is in for a surprise. I hurt. I hurt real bad. I can't be the HB people expect. I hobble around like my father. Jeeze, he wandered around with a dislocated shoulder for two years. I/m on my second shoulder and I'm going: "Guy, you were better than me."

And this is the clear thinking mind that lures some into the PA fold...

[ZoeJesnik]

I have been following these boards for a little while and I am really curious - does anyone have anything good to tell me about PA? I have been querying the heck out of agents and publishers only to be rejected. I know that I said I wouldn't - but I did - I submitted my manuscript to PA.

Before everyone pounces all at once - please give me some unbiased, professionally speaking feedback. What I need is the meat and potatoes of it - specifics if you will. I am not totally naive - after all, I did publish through 1stBooks before.

What intrigues me is not having to pay any money up front for anything. You say I might have to do some marketing - not a problem. I had to do LOTS of marketing with my first book. What I need to know is this:

- Does PA do ANY marketing at all? Do they create press releases, bookmarks, post cards, anything?

( I noticed at amazon that PA authors have better sales rankings than 1stBooks authors)

-How long are the contracts for?

-How and when are royalties paid?

-Do they really reject a certain percentage of manuscripts?

I am still pluggin away at the traditional industry in hopes that SOMEONE will do something for me. I am curious why PA is considered by the big boys to be a vanity press when they don't charge the author a fee? And another thing that I don't get is why there is no return policy! That upsets me. The NO RETURN policy is what got me at 1stBooks. Nobody wants to take a chance on ordering a bunch of books and then putting them on the dollar table at the end of the year.

1stBooks charges $699 for a returnability package for the first year - and then it is less each year after that. I can't afford $699! And I don't have that many family and friends to support my publisher.

Please - I am looking for unbridled honesty here - in a well articulated and professional manner. I have asked for input at other sites and have only gotten vulgar replies.

Thanks for your assistance. ZoeJesnik@neo.rr.com

www.geocities.com/zoejesnik

[vstrauss]

>>- Does PA do ANY marketing at all? Do they create press releases, bookmarks, post cards, anything?<<

They list your book on their website. They also send out a flyer about your book to a list of addresses you provide. And they'll mail review copies if the reviewer contacts PA with a request for the book. That's about it.

By comparison, a "traditional" publisher will publish a catalogue that's sent to booksellers; maintain its own sales force to contact booksellers about its list or work with a distributor which provides that service; send out large numbers of review copies in advance of publication (which is the only way you can get reviews in journals like Publishers Weekly and Booklist); do at least some print advertising; and ensure its books are widely distributed to actual physical bookstores on the publication date. This is known as marketing to the book trade, and it's the bare basic minimum that's done for all authors, even the least important. More successful authors get more.

Even if PA's books were priced comparably to "traditionally" published books in a similar format, and were returnable, its lack of marketing to the book trade ensures that its books won't get into stores unless you yourself persuade a store manager to put them there.

>>-How long are the contracts for?<<

Seven years.

>>-How and when are royalties paid?<<

To my knowledge--semi-annually and by check.

>>-Do they really reject a certain percentage of manuscripts?<<

I'm sure they do. They've done an excellent job of publicizing themselves, and I'm sure they are deluged with queries. But even if the rejection percentage is as high as they claim--80%--it's still not enough to ensure good quality. As anyone who has ever looked at a publisher's slush pile knows, less than 10% of submitted manuscripts even approach publishability. The large houses have a rejection rate of maybe 97% or 98%--and sometimes even that's not high enough.

>>I am curious why PA is considered by the big boys to be a vanity press when they don't charge the author a fee?<<

Because the majority of their income comes from their authors, who are encouraged to buy their own books for resale. And because they aren't very selective in what they publish.

With POD-based self-publishing services like 1st Books or iUniverse, you do have to pay upfront--but in return you get a much more author-friendly contract, which doesn't tie you down for years. And also higher royalties. PA pays only 8% of net, where some of the POD self-pub companies pay 20% or more.

- Victoria

[James D Macdonald]

Hi, Zoe --

You might find this thread here at Absolute Write useful/interesting: <a href="http://pub197.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessage?topicID=190.topic" target="_new">pub43.ezboard.com/fabsolutewritefrm11.showMessage?topicID=190.topic</a>

As for why PA is considered a vanity press:

The average number of copies that a PoD author sells is around 75.

PA doesn't charge an upfront fee (other than expecting the author to pay for his own copyright), but their cover prices are extravagant -- roughy five dollars a copy more than equivalent books produced with the same technology from other publishers who do offer advances, returns, and publicity/marketing.

So ... $5 * 75 = $375. There's your vanity-press fee right there. Rather than expecting the author/author's friends to come up with the vanity fee in advance, PA charges the author and the author's friends the same fee on the installment plan.

See also <a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002692.html#002692" target="_new">this thread</a> elsewhere. 1stBooks, Bookman Marketing, and a number of other subjects are covered in the discussion following. You'll find a lot of information about PA in it.

[edited to correct URL 22NOV04]

[FM St George]

you'll also find at PA that while they don't ask for any money up front, you end up dying on the small stuff...

for example - thirty dollars for your copyright - most legitimate publishers will absorb this cost, but YOU have to lay that out and do the paperwork; putting you $29 in the hole from the minute you sign the contract.

PA will encourage you to spend money on bookmarks, flyers... hiring a publicist at your own cost and so forth - while you only recoup maybe 60 cents royalty per book. Hardly a winning proposition.

as well, their author support is non-existent unless you're ordering books - and even then you'll run into problems. There's plenty of examples on PA's own message boards about bad shipments/late shipments and the like. They'll offer you 50% off your first 200 books when you publish, then the savings drops down to 20% if you purchase twenty or more. Given that the average PA book is overpriced to start with, you'll end up cutting your prices down to less than a dollar profit per book (and note that if you purchase books with the author's discount you do NOT get royalties) and never break even.

the fanatics hide behind the mantra that "everyone deserves to be published" and "they do it for the art, not the money" - but my art demands that I not fritter away the mortgage money on books I can't sell nor should I be involved in reselling books to local gift shops while the major chains won't take them due to the no-return policy.

if you truly believe that you're that good, then keep plugging at the smaller publishers and keep asking questions - punch PA into google.com and see what comes up...

again, jmo ymmv...

[James D Macdonald]

My best advice is to write a whole new book and start submitting it to the very best markets.

While it's making the rounds, write a third book. Then a fourth. And so on.

There's no better way to learn to write than by writing.

[Ed Williams 3]

Y'all are going to think I'm kidding, but two PA authors are in a disagreement and are lining up a boxing match to settle their differences. Check out this quote from our favorite PA author...

Message:
I called this frui- loop this afternoon to tell him to slide off. NO! He thinks 220 lbs of ex bar bouncer can't take his 160 lb boxing bod. I tried to talk him out of it and all he did was piss me off more! He continues to bad-mouth Tracy and Paula when all they are is victims. I can't let this go.

You know that joke about choking the s**t out of someone who richly deserves it? I'm going to New York and beating an idiot into a fine paste for charity. I would love to do a book signing with Amo while I'm there. I hear the statue of Liberty is opening back up.

The thread I am quoting from is right here:

www.publishamerica.com/cg...e/3381.htm (http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/3381.htm)

[FM St George]

well, more great PR for PublishAmerica and their authors...

any doubts now about the sanity of those parties involved?

[Betty W01]

Boxing?? http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/spezial/Fool/box2.gif

:ha

Too funny.


http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_6_13.gif
http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage12/12.gifhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_119.gif Jenna's threat to ban Dave & James if they didn't stop verbally slugging each other was so much more... elegant.

Other possible solutions:
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_9_132.gif

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12/12_5_23.gif

http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage34/3.gif

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_130.gif

http://deephousepage.com/smilies/lsvader.gif

[Deejay816]

I have been following the PA boards for the last few days and am appalled by what I see going on there. Firstly, it seems that the "author's lounge" has turned into a dating service of sorts for the lonely and desperate. Now there's this enmass board bullying of one member who doesn't seem to have the sense to back off and leave it alone. I think Lynn Barry was correct when she said what was happening was akin to bullies in high school picking on the unpopular kid until he just couldn't take any more and retaliated. I find this whole thing very frightening and am really saddened that there are those who see humor here.

Deejay

[Betty W01]

Are you implying we're a PA board? I think we've been insulted.:eek


OK, true, there's no humor in bullying and very little in all the PA vs. the world rants I've read (except for some of the grammar and spelling), but I have to admit :o that I am amused that two (presumably grown-up) authors think boxing will solve anything. My oldest daughter was a boxer and all it solves is which boxer had the best moves on a particular day at a particular time. Although, I guess that could apply to writing, too.

"Dear Sir:

I'm sorry that at this particular time, on this particular subject, your moves don't meet our needs.

Sincerely,

Ms. Editor"

Advice for authors - choose your moves carefully and if you get decked, drag yourself off the canvas and try again.


Advice for PA boxers - Come on, y'all. Try arm-wrestling. Or flipping a coin. Either one can be proclaimed to be "proof" of whatever the point of this is, and no damage will be done.

[Deejay816]

Betty - I'm sorry - were you addressing me with this "Are you implying we're a PA board? I think we've been insulted"? If so, I wasn't implying that at all. I was merely voicing my concern that some may find humor in the rantings of bullies. It's one thing to poke fun of the numerous grammar and spelling errors; it's quite another to find humor in several people ganging up on one and encouraging someone else, who may be a bit unstable to begin with, to threaten that person with physical harm. I've read enough of the related posts to surmise that this person is annoying, but wouldn't it be easier to ignore him rather than to egg him on, post personal information about him and his family on the board, and then threaten him in any way when he responds? These people apparently know where he lives and they dislike him (putting it mildly). But if you see humor there, that's your choice. I see some reason for concern and think PA should pull all of these posts immediately. A bully mentality is a frightening thing.

Deejay

[Betty W01]

wouldn't it be easier to ignore him rather than to egg him on, post personal information about him and his family on the board, and then threaten him in any way when he responds? These people apparently know where he lives and they dislike him (putting it mildly).

Far easier AND safer for all concerned. I don't frequent any boards but these (not enough hours in the day) and could care less personally what's going on with PA, but it sure sounds like they've gone overboard and something should be done. I can tell you that behavior like that on an AW board would be vaporized so fast it would leave a smoking trail behind it.

Sorry to give you the impression that I approve of physical or emotional bullying. I've been the butt of it before and it is no fun. It can even be tragic. Let's hope this boxing scenario, if it plays out, isn't.

[sfsassenach]

Since on the Internet no one knows you're a dog, HB Marcus can fulminate all he wants. If he and Brian want to get into an online pissing contest or a RL "boxing match", who cares?

[HapiSofi]

If you've submitted a book to PA and can't claw it back, you still haven't lost it until it's printed and bound. There's a stage in PA's debauched text production cycle where they send your e-text back to you for proofreading and corrections. They don't really look at what you return to them.

If, during that proofreading stage, you make enough significant changes in the text that it could never be mistaken for your original book, then what they have under contract and in print is that messed-up version plus your original title. After that, all you need is a new title and an uncorrupted copy of the file, and lo! you have your book back.

Do you get what I'm saying? What PA has under contract is a book that goes by a certain title. It's up to the publisher to say whether or not the text the author hands in to them satisfies the terms of the contract. Printing and binding the book is an inarguable sign that the publisher considers the text satisfactory.

Thus, if what goes into print from them is this corrupted version of your text plus your original title, the corrupted version becomes the book they have under contract. Your original text becomes a different book, one you're free to sell elsewhere under a different title.

This is different from my usual semi-crazed advice about how to alter a book so that its former pod-publisher or e-publisher won't recognize it. This is altering the text of a book while leaving in place the identifying bits like the title, author, and chapter breaks, so that it superficially looks like the same book you submitted, but is in fact a different narrative text. What keeps the amount of work involved at a feasible level is that the results don't have to make sense beyond the sentence level.

What you must do:

1. Corrupt the text.

2. Change the title of the rescued good version.

3. Never, ever publicly talk about what you've done. This is another one of those cases where it's damnably hard for them to prove that your intentions weren't innocent when you corrupted the file -- unless you yourself make it easy for them by saying so.

How to do it:

1. Keep the same character count, and don't alter big things like the number of chapters.

2. Work fast. Don't make changes that are simply gibberish, or contain obscenities, or otherwise make it too clear that your changes could never have been made in good faith. A useful fact to know: the history of textual changes authors thought were a good idea is not awash in logic and common sense.

3. Happy Global Search and Replace Time: If it's nonfiction, swap all the relevant nouns and verbs for irrelevant ones. Add an early section that explains how to do something irrelevant to your original subject. Explain that a firm grasp of this process is essential if you want to understand the rest of the book. If it's fiction, change all the characters' names. Swap their genders. Change the location. If it's a science fiction novel set on Ganymede, change all instances of "Ganymede" to "Parsippany, NJ." Change the McGuffin. If the book's a thriller about a briefcase full of cocaine, turn it into a backpack full of turmeric-coated truffles. Turn all instances of "gun" into "sponge." And so forth and so on; you know what words commonly occur in your book. Change them.

4. Invent a brief random narrative trope -- say, "Bob and Jeffrey, the Crab Men" -- and insert it at least once per chapter. One or two sentences per mention should do it. Instead of simply going to bed, have a character go off to have sex with Bob and Jeffrey, the Crab Men. If someone goes to a cocktail party or a reunion, have them run into Bob and Jeffrey, the Crab Men, whom they have't seen in ages. Have the truck that hastily pulls out of the lumber yard just before the shooting starts be driven by Bob and Jeffrey, the Crab Men.

5. Near the beginning, have either your narrator or one of the main characters deliver a rant about how all these events trace back to [say] the Articles of Confederation, or [say] your mean, incompetent second-grade teacher, Miss Mafucci. Any random subject will do. In the course of the rant, obscurely relate the business with [Miss Mafucci] to Bob and Jeffrey, the Crab Men.

6. Make room in your character count for Bob and Jeffrey by removing essential or otherwise distinctive sentences from other scenes in that chapter. Make room for the rant about Miss Mafucci by cutting some of the hunks of excessive introductory exposition you almost certainly have in your first chapter. If you don't have any, cut some essential development instead.

7. If your original book ended with everyone kissing and proposing marriage, turn it into a gun battle or fistfight by changing all the verbs and a few of the nouns. If it ended with a gun battle or fistfight, swap the verbs and nouns the other way round so your characters are either proposing marriage or going to bed together. Don't put too much work into it.

8. At the end of the narrative, tack on a last few paragraphs involving Bob and Jeffrey, the Crab Men.

The foregoing may be funny, but I seriously believe it will work. And not only is there a very good chance that you'll get your book back, but in the process you'll learn a profound lesson about the difference between conventional surface plot and integral storyline.

And if they notice? Small chance of that. But if they do, say nothing. Let it ride. See what happens. Take a long time to answer their letters. Never elaborate, and never explain. Make them do all the figuring-out. PA's a very small operation. They don't really have the time or inclination to pursue a drawn-out diagnostic argument with you.

If they do keep pushing it, I suggest saying "I made the corrections and sent it back to you," then waiting some more. After that, try "I just made some quick corrections using global search-and-replace," or "I just wanted to do one last rewrite -- I want this book to be as good as it can possibly be." The most they can do is go to press without your corrections, which leaves you no worse off than you were before, and gives you a grievance that may be useful in future attempts to break the contract.

[FM St George]

actually, all it shows is how immature and unprofessional the lot of them are on the PA boards... if HB ever wished to get a respectable publisher, he's probably blown it with these public temper tantrums. If he had talent, I'd be afraid to sign him up for fear he'd go postal on someone at a signing or throw a tantrum in the middle of the boardroom if he wasn't getting enough attention. Obviously he craves it and will do anything he can to continue being in the spotlight - even if it detracts from his writing "career".

what's sad is that PA will continue to allow it since he's their biggest fan and therefore can terrorize anyone he wants on the board with immunity.

*shrug*

jmo, ymmv...