The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

[Aconite]

I guess I'm just sick of hearing conceited jerks implying or downright saying that a writer must not be worth a sh!t if that writer went with PA, especially if they don't know a da@n thing about the circumstances.
I, like Sheryl, would like to see you cite instances of people saying this here on AW. You've made this claim more than once, and not backed it up.

I haven't seen such posts written by AW regulars; in fact, most AW regulars take pains to point out that being printed by PA is not a sign that the book is either good or bad, because PA simply doesn't care about quality. As Uncle Jim has said, they'll take a good book just as readily as they'll take a bad one, and treat it just the same.

[Aconite]

Shelagh's "let people make their own mistakes" has been eating at me all night.
In that context, "Let people make their own mistakes" means, "I know deep down that I was taken in, but I can't admit it yet and I don't like seeing the proof there in black and white for everyone esle to read and know." It's part of grieving. Some people get through it quickly, and some take a long time. Long, long, long time.

[James D. Macdonald]

Some people measure success in dollars, some in the creation of perpetual art.

The reason we talk about money is this:

Personally, I care about having readers. I suspect most writers do. There's a positive correlation between royalties and readers. Readers are hard to count. Money is easy to count. So we let one stand for the other.

As to whether I've created timeless art:

That will be decided years after I'm dead. I have no control over it. I write as well as I can, and hope it's good enough.

[astonwest]

That was kind of my point. PA isn't a real publisher. Shelagh's "let people make their own mistakes" has been eating at me all night. Had I known about this site before sending my own book to PA, I might have not "made that mistake".As far as mistakes go, signing with PA was probably the best mistake I could have made. Had it not been for their crooked ways, I probably never would have searched out sites such as Mindsight and AW, and would never have learned as much about true publishing as I have...

Now it's back off to the WIP...

[D L I]

Did I specifically say authors/writers on AW? Well, I will now. They are few, but no, Aconite, you can do the thread research yourself. I don't jump through hoops to be accepted into a clique. Just like this perpetual thread, you want to keep feeding a fire instead of trying to understand someone's venting, someone who has already explained the frustration.

Even though I have no love for PA, it's obvious I should move on from here.

Thank you and good-bye.

[Aconite]

They are few, but no, Aconite, you can do the thread research yourself. I don't jump through hoops to be accepted into a clique.
This isn't about jumping through hoops to be accepted. You made a claim. It's up to you to support it, not to me to refute it.

[Ken Schneider]

When I first appeared here on A.W. My intent was to first, apologize for my ignorance while posting on the PAMB. I was uneducated about commercial publishing, and faucets of the same. My lack of research, and the bandwagon mentality of the PAMB leads one into the PA brainwashing.

I still speak out against PA because they are not forthcoming as to their real purpose in the publishing game.

I am not mad at them any longer, I just loathe the disservice they extend to their fellow man.

As far as the rights to my first book. They can have them. It wasn't good enough to publish with a real publisher anyway. I fell into their trap, paid 1,574.00 to buy books, and they made their money, I lost money. I've since paid the credit card off, and learned a valuable lesson. I will always speak out against veiled programs that hurt honest people who have dreams, hopes, and fears.

If one comes to AW and thinks they know what they are talking about, and do not, they will be eaten alive with the truth. That truth will be a rebirth for some, and true death for others.

To this point in my journey I've tried to humble myself, be open to learning to write well, and enjoying writing.

Can I write? Not really in my opinion, but I'll get there.

And it is thanks to AWer's, not PA, that I will and have advanced from ignorant, and turned onto a road that has direction.


And yes, I'd rather be writing. Bye.

[James D. Macdonald]

PA says (http://www.publishamerica.com/aboutus.htm):

[PublishAmerica] specializes in books about, or by, people who face and overcome hardships and obstacles in life (both fictional and nonfictional), and who turn stumbling blocks into stepping stones.

It's hard to imagine an author who doesn't fit that description. The way they put it sounds better than "We're looking for anyone with a pulse," though.

[SC Harrison]

PA says (http://www.publishamerica.com/aboutus.htm):


[PublishAmerica] specializes in books about, or by, people who face and overcome hardships and obstacles in life (both fictional and nonfictional), and who turn stumbling blocks into stepping stones.






This is just one (of many) subliminal suggestions that hard work will allow you to get somewhere. In the context of publishing, this means wider exposure and recognition.

The one thing that PA understands well, is that words have power. They can be used to manipulate the ego of the reader into believing things that the analytical part of the mind could (should) dispense with quickly.

Thanks, Jim. I think an in-depth analysis of PA propaganda is in order.

[spike]

I didn't sign with PA. But that was mostly luck. I was lucky that I found AW and a few other sites that had the truth. It was completely accidental.

But I am the typical victim. Sometimes when I look at the PAMB, I think, well maybe...PA plays with and preys on a writer's frustration. Sometimes, when I'm down, I think there must be some way around this publishing mess...and I think maybe...Maybe PA...

Then I come back here to all you nice folks remind me of what I already knew.

Does that mean I shouldn't post here? Because I didn't sign with PA, does that mean I don't have a vested interest?

My interest is helping people like me, but who might not be as lucky as I was.

[TwentyFour]

I have not signed with PA either, but know some who have. I thought like you-maybe this...maybe that....

In the end, I found that PA is exactly what they say it is on here.

[spike]

snipped

This was from the PAMB in response to a query about posting on writing forums to drum up interest in one's book.

I always thought that names were deleted to protect privacy.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't. Experiment and see. There's a few that I would stay away from, such as the Absolute Write forum. They are Anti PA, and anti every PA author out there.

They enjoy taking your comments here and reposting them without giving you credit for your original ideas.


This PA writer doesn't understand that info is removed to keep from embarrassing the original poster. But after listening to the mutual admiration society of the PAMB, he may not understand.

[Jean Marie]

And, Spike, you prove the point of AW (Ha! get the pun!) If it weren't for this board, you'd have signed w/ PA. Instead, you're here and are able to help others.

See, this thread DOES work!!! And that's why Jenna has this forum and Mac never, ever sleeps http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif And it's why Jim lives on top of a mountain completely isolated from humanity!! They're devoted to helping one author at a time stay away from the evil clutches of PA. They also work hard along w/ so many others on this board to futher the craft of writing for those who are sincerely interested in becoming published not printed.

What AW offers is invaluable and costs nothing. What PA costs can take a lifetime and beyond to pay.

[LloydBrown]

They're devoted to helping one author at a time stay away from the evil clutches of PA. They also work hard along w/ so many others on this board to futher the craft of writing for those who are sincerely interested in becoming published not printed.

Actually, they work hard to help others improve their writing and further careers in writing. Avoiding PA is one tiny element of that. Please don't support the claim that AW's sole raison d'etre is bashing PA. It might be yours, but it's not for most of us.

[MacAllister]

Actually, they work hard to help others improve their writing and further careers in writing. Avoiding PA is one tiny element of that. That's really pretty accurate, Lloyd.

While it's lovely and flattering to sound like a superhero, it's also not precisely true. I'm mostly just here because I like you guys. I do want to help other would-be writers; people like me, with day jobs and stories in their heads. I enjoy this community.

But I'd belonged to AW for nearly a year before I even ventured into the PA threads. Even then, I totally didn't get what the big deal was for quite some time. Also, it's very cool to get to hang out and rub elbows with the likes of Jim Macdonald, Victoria Strauss, HapiSofi, and the other terrific people here.

Lloyd, you're dead on about AW. We have a number of members who've never heard of PA, and couldn't care less. :) If things go our way, in another few years, PA will be nothing more than a cautionary tale--like the Melanie Mills saga.

[Jean Marie]

Actually, they work hard to help others improve their writing and further careers in writing. Avoiding PA is one tiny element of that. Please don't support the claim that AW's sole raison d'etre is bashing PA. It might be yours, but it's not for most of us.

Guess you need to re-read what I posted w/ a bit more care, Lloyd http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif
I clearly stated they work hard w/ those interested in honing their writing skills in order to become published not printed.

<snipped> They also work hard along w/ so many others on this board to futher the craft of writing for those who are sincerely interested in becoming published not printed.

for your benefit, Lloyd, I copied/pasted w/o changes

[Jean Marie]

One further note: my life's mission is not all about PA. I do have other interests. However, this is the NEPAT, lest anyone forget.

[DaveKuzminski]

There's more to this thread than providing the truth about PA to new writers who haven't signed and are considering it. If they don't sign with PA, that's a nail in PA's coffin.

We're also providing the truth about PA to those authors who have signed with it but haven't ordered any books. If we can prove to them that they'll only lose money, we just might save them from going into unnecessary debt. If so, that's another nail in PA's coffin.

Eventually, we'll bury them in prison just like the other scammers.

[Jean Marie]

You are absolutely correct, Dave! Don't buy your books was my mantra when I was on the pamb. I never bought any of my own and constantly encouraged others to do the same. As a result, I was banned on a regular basis http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

In the transcript of Dolan's arbitration willie even says that, PA is in the business of selling books to their authors. Hear that lurkers!!! Yup. That's in Meiner's own words!! Does it get any more clearer than that! The owner of PA saying that they're in business to sell to you the author-hello!

In short: NOT to the bookstores from shining sea to shining sea.

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

Just like this perpetual thread, you want to keep feeding a fire instead of trying to understand someone's venting, someone who has already explained the frustration.

Jenna could shut down this thread today. Freeze it right where it stands. All the information would exist in cyberspace for years to come. That should be enough, right?

Wrong.

People are funny creatures. Those who googled for info on PA would find it eventually and they might read a bit here and a bit there, random samplings of our ravings and rants... but those who were on the fence about PA would use the LACK of FRESH information as reason enough to say to themselves, "Oh! Good! This is all old crap! PA must have cleaned up their act!"

And that would be wrong, too.

So go ahead and go away if you want to and we'll stick right here and keep saying PA sucks for as long as it takes.

Or... you can hang around and help. And learn something in the process.

Up to you.

[MacAllister]

I received an email from Phillip Dolan on January 16th and we have exchanged several email messages since then. He advised me not to listen to members here. That was good advice. I will do the same as Danny, who is far too intelligent a person to waste his time here, and say good-bye.
That's...unfortunate.

Good to know, but still unfortunate.

Good luck to you, Shelagh. To you, as well, Danny.

[Jean Marie]

Bye!!

[Jean Marie]

And far too much of it for me! I received an email from Phillip Dolan on January 16th and we have exchanged several email messages since then. He advised me not to listen to members here. That was good advice. I will do the same as Danny, who is far too intelligent a person to waste his time here, and say good-bye.
Not surprising, but sad that you want to avoid the truth about yourself as well as PA.

Don't use what Danny said as an excuse to further your own agenda, Shelagh.

Good luck in whatever you choose to do w/ what you want to learn from wherever you go.

[DaveKuzminski]

I received an email from Phillip Dolan on January 16th and we have exchanged several email messages since then. He advised me not to listen to members here.

I'll believe that he advised you not to listen to members here when I hear it from him. Why? Because, Shelagh, you've committed too many contradictions in your previous claims for me to believe you without proof of your current claims.

[Sassenach]

Shelagh leaving?
Again?

How many times does that make?

[Ken Schneider]

He advised me not to listen to members here. good-bye.

And you haven't! Why listen to published, credible, writers?

If you know it all, I guess no one here can help you.

Good luck.

PA is not honest in their business model.

PA, please add to your home page.

Your books do not automatically go into bookstores.
We offer short discounts to bookstores.
In all likelihood your books will never be on bookstore shelves.
If you want to sell books, you will have to buy them from us and sell them yourself.
We do not market your book,you must do that yourself.
We publish first time authors, you will not get rich publishing with us.

That should about take care of my mouth.

[Jean Marie]

Uh, Ken, you forgot to mention:

we here at PA accept any drivel you the author care to spew

if you choose PA's no-edit option, we will not touch your golden prose (actually, we never do anyway. this disclaimer just legally allows us to get off the hook-brilliant, don't you think)



You know, Ken, I have to wonder why anyone would advise an aspiring writer not to listen to professional wisdom. A lot to ponder for a Saturday, don't you think? I'd be lost w/o my teachers, Jenna, Mac & Jim.

[Gravity]

Shelagh leaving?
Again?

How many times does that make?

I"ve lost count. Shelagh herself says she doesn't care that she only garnered about twenty-five local sales for her book. If she's fine with that, I'm tickled pink. To paraphrase the line in A Christmas Carol, may she be happy in the life she's chosen.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program, already in progress...

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

Shelagh,

I have read every post you have written since you joined this forum. Members have given freely their intellectual time and efforts to answer your questions. They have also given you time tested advice, which you also requested. It appears that you are unable and or unwilling to absorb the information attained. You are also very suggestible to others who think this forum is irrelevant. I have lost count how many times you "washed your hands" of this forum, and left. What is it that you are trying to prove? I do not understand your motives - Please advise.

As for me, I am recouping nicely. Tracy - as always, has given me tons of TLC. She worries that, once I am fully recovered - the stress of taking on PublishAmerica in the media, will cause another MI. I have assured her that - at the first sign of pain in my chest, I will retreat until my body has repaired itself.

Well, that is all I know for the moment - wait, another moment has passed. Yup, that is all I know - for now.

Argile Stox

[Jean Marie]

Just for the he!! of it, egem. This is the NEPAT and it's about PA. PA's a printer, never to be confused w/ a publisher. PA's exactly like Kinko's. Actually, Kinko's is better. They are not looked at or on by anyone anywhere in the publishing world because they are printers.

They are thieves, criminals and scammers. Nobody is twisting anyone's arm to post here, including yours.

I understand you like to annoy me, I've no idea why, but, I'm not playing today. Bye-bye!

[LloydBrown]

I have been told to avoid AW as well, many times, from writers, editors, and even other companies. Some of those writers had published with PA, and others did not. I find that the views about this forum from writers and editors around the web are mostly negative. I have friends that are still in publishing, and one of those friends who works at St. Martin's has even said something along the lines of "it is not wise to be a writer who defames a publisher, any publisher." She was aware of the this forum before I brought it up.

That's convinced me that you're a liar.

[Birol]

I find that the views about this forum from writers and editors around the web are mostly negative.

Links please.

[TwentyFour]

And far too much of it for me! I received an email from Phillip Dolan on January 16th and we have exchanged several email messages since then. He advised me not to listen to members here. That was good advice. I will do the same as Danny, who is far too intelligent a person to waste his time here, and say good-bye.

Did you ever think that maybe PA read this forum and sent you a fake email? I mean if they can send out fake police to someone's home, why not go as far as a fake email? I find that funny you "suddenly" got this email. I get emails from people here on the forum and they advise me to do things...like join up with the legit companies and legal contests. I hope your Phil Dolan is not a PA Pseudonym!

[spike]

And far too much of it for me! I received an email from Phillip Dolan on January 16th and we have exchanged several email messages since then. He advised me not to listen to members here. That was good advice. I will do the same as Danny, who is far too intelligent a person to waste his time here, and say good-bye.

You keep promising and promising that you are going to leave...but you don't.

Please, take Danny's advice. Go. May the blessings be! Good luck.

[Gabriele]

Did you ever think that maybe PA read this forum and sent you a fake email? I mean if they can send out fake police to someone's home, why not go as far as a fake email? I find that funny you "suddenly" got this email. I get emails from people here on the forum and they advise me to do things...like join up with the legit companies and legal contests. I hope your Phil Dolan is not a PA Pseudonym!


They sent fake police around?

Wow, if they used that imagination and ressources to edit and promote the books they print instead, they might even develop into a publisher. :D

[Jean Marie]

They sent fake police around?

Wow, if they used that imagination and ressources to edit and promote the books they print instead, they might even develop into a publisher. :D
Yes, indeed. That's how they treat their authors, they intimidate, they don't pay royalties.

But, some like to defend PA just the same. God only knows why.

[mdin]

I hope your Phil Dolan is not a PA Pseudonym!


I like Phil, but he's pretty vocal about being anti-AW. That's nothing new.

[James D. Macdonald]

Links please.

I second the question.


Unlike this supposed person at St. Martin's, who I frankly do not believe exists, I'm saying right here, right now, that you can disparage PA all day, every day, anywhere you care to, and it won't harm your chances of being published by a real publisher in the slightest.

[Jean Marie]

I second the question.


Unlike this supposed person at St. Martin's, who I frankly do not believe exists, I'm saying right here, right now, that you can disparage PA all day, every day, anywhere you care to, and it won't harm your chances of being published by a real publisher in the slightest.
And if there was even a remote possibility that this was true, Jim has promised to write a letter of recommendation to accompany my signed contract w/ my new agent/publisher. When in fact I acquire said agent/publisher.

[Gabriele]

Yes, indeed. That's how they treat their authors, they intimidate, they don't pay royalties.


They better don't try that in Germany, it's fraudulent exercise of a public office and will get you a nice time in jail.

[DaveKuzminski]

They better don't try that in Germany, it's fraudulent exercise of a public office and will get you a nice time in jail.

It's against the law in the US, but you have to catch them at it.

[DamaNegra]

I believe it's against the law in most countries, which leads me to ask: why would a supposedly legit company do something completely illegal? That could really get them into trouble.

[DaveKuzminski]

Dama, because they believe they can get away with it.


To all authors who have been or are PA authors. Phil posted some useful information about class action arbitration proceedings at the Mindsight forum at URL:
http://www.mindsightseries.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-auth.cgi?lm=1138322668&file=/3831/6443.html.

[ResearchGuy]

...why would a supposedly legit company do something completely illegal? That could really get them into trouble.
Ask the former managers and executives of Enron, Worldcom, Adelphia, Tyco, Arthur Anderson, Sunbeam ... shall I go on?

--Ken

[endless rewrite]

Hi


Just wanted to say hi to everyone.

I've been lurking for ages, reading, enjoying and occasionally being stunned by the posts. I guess I should be over at the script writing section as that's what I do, but this is far more interesting. I find it bewildering that with all the information provided, first hand experience and patient guidance provided here that PA continue to suck up and regurgitate writers. I sometimes work with and mentor new and young writers and only came across the board when researching PA, after a very talented but inexperienced writer mentioned the company as a prospective publisher. Thankfully once informed, I was able to rugby tackle them to the ground on their way to the post box, wrestle the envelope away and save the manuscript. Hurrah!

Keep up the good work!

PS I am a terrible speller/typist and so will probably contine to lurk. I am also English and therefore too repressed to emote with icons, though inside I am smiling and perfectly friendly.

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

Hi back at you from Oklahoma! Welcome to AW! Don't just lurk, though! I did that for the longest time, too, but I learned very quickly that 99.9% of the folks around here are very friendly. Those who aren't are easy to ignore.

You'll find lots and lots of stuff in other threads that will not only teach you but entertain you, as well. It's a fun place and we're glad to have another brick in the wall between the writer and the scammers. And sometimes, when only another writer can understand what you're feeling, it's the best place to find a shoulder.

[HapiSofi]

I have been told to avoid AW as well, many times, from writers, editors, and even other companies. Some of those writers had published with PA, and others did not. I find that the views about this forum from writers and editors around the web are mostly negative. I have friends that are still in publishing, and one of those friends who works at St. Martin's has even said something along the lines of "it is not wise to be a writer who defames a publisher, any publisher." She was aware of the this forum before I brought it up.Yeah, right. Because we always believe everything we're told by "somebody at St. Martin's." If they'd quoted something they'd heard from John Sargent or Fritz Foy or Thomas Dunne or Amelie Littell, I might have given it a moment's thought. But an unspecified St. Martin's employee? Give me a bleeping break. If nothing else, SMP has way too many entry-level employees.

Not that I'd be inclined to swallow the story anyway, because it's palpably false. I work in the industry. In fact, I work in a part of the industry not far removed from SMP. (Could you tell?) Here's something I know from direct personal everyday knowledge: the many, many "writers, editors, and even other companies" one meets with in trade publishing are, for the most part, completely unaware of AW's existence.

(Consolingly, people in trade publishing are even less aware of the existence of PublishAmerica. In spite of Willem's boasts, PA is so far from being a threat to conventional publishing that the company doesn't even register as a noticeable object. But then, why should PA show up on the industry's radar screens? They don't take returns, they don't offer a proper discount, they don't market their books, their prices are unrealistic, and they don't get brick-and-mortar distribution. This renders them perfectly irrelevant.)

But to return to Absolute Write: given the industry's lack of acquaintance with AW, I can't believe for a moment that people in it have negative opinions about the board. Sorry, not possible. No acquaintance = no opinions = no negative opinions = load of codswallop.

Burying Ossa under Pelion, I am even less ready to believe that these allegedly numerous industry professionals were so indiscreet as to share their allegedly negative opinions of a popular online writers' venue with some self-important little nobody who'll run off to blather everything she's heard to the public bulletin boards. (Which, you'll note, she has done.) Working in a publishing house is like sitting in the middle of an echo chamber. You deal with authors, reviewers, artists, publicists, freelancers, et cetera, and the ilk, and more et cetera, none of whom have the slightest natural inclination to keep their mouths shut. Lifers don't gossip with stray wanna-bes.

The crowning piece of nonsense was the line about how "It is not wise to be a writer who defames a publisher, any publisher." Does this person know any? For authors, slagging off publishers is a basic bodily function. If they tried to hold it in, they'd surely explode. I'm sure you've all noticed by now how few news reports one hears about exploding authors. You may draw your own conclusions.

[HapiSofi]

Rewrite of the Endless? I'm now imagining you drawn by Mike Dringenberg. Hello, and welcome.

[SC Harrison]

PS I am a terrible speller/typist and so will probably contine to lurk. I am also English and therefore too repressed to emote with icons, though inside I am smiling and perfectly friendly.

Nay, good writer—leave not. This forum would benefit from the occasional emoticonoclastic intervention. Those little scoundrels appear to be increasing in numbers, and I fear they are not as gentle and peace-loving as they would have us believe.

[JennaGlatzer]

Welcome, Endless Rewrite. Excellent job on the tackling!

Thought this would be a good time to remind people about the IGNORE function. I've never used it before because I run the joint and it's kind of against the rules for me to ignore anyone... but in keeping with the whole "I need to improve my mental health" theme, I'm using it for the first time... LIBERATION IS MINE, ALL MINE!

It's in your User CP (near the top left of your screen). This link should work, I think: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/profile.php?do=editlist

If someone consistently annoys you, PLEASE put that person on your ignore list. I'd like for your experience here to be pleasant. Truthfully, I'd like to ban people just for being ruthlessly annoying, but I haven't done that yet. I'm giving it a lot of thought.

[endless rewrite]

Hi

Thank you for the welcome, I am so glad I took the plunge. After saying I would happily lurk I have already been posting over in the scripts thread (couldn't resist). Over the last few weeks I've continued to be impressed and heatened by the generosity, integrity and insight of the board members. Looking forward to being out and about and taking part - on topic of course!

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

I, like Sheryl, would like to see you cite instances of people saying this here on AW. You've made this claim more than once, and not backed it up.

I haven't seen such posts written by AW regulars; in fact, most AW regulars take pains to point out that being printed by PA is not a sign that the book is either good or bad, because PA simply doesn't care about quality. As Uncle Jim has said, they'll take a good book just as readily as they'll take a bad one, and treat it just the same.Well, there's always Sassenach, who still has this habit of putting the word "author" in scare-quotes when referring to someone who signed with PA--but I doubt anyone thinks Sass, bless 'er heart, is a representative sample. In general I agree with what everyone's saying here: AW members take great pains, most of us, most of the time, to point out that PA, and not its victims, are the enemy. AW moderators certainly take those pains, all of them, all the time, and that ought to count for a lot.

And I have to add that the "let everyone make their own mistakes" attitude that Shelagh kept harping on is not one that's friendly to other authors. Warning fellow writers away from a scammer is a public service; holding one's tongue while watching yet another writer throw their manuscript and money into that maw, for the sake of "letting them make their own mistakes," is a grave disservice.

[egem]

Yeah, right. Because we always believe everything we're told by "somebody at St. Martin's." If they'd quoted something they'd heard from John Sargent or Fritz Foy or Thomas Dunne or Amelie Littell, I might have given it a moment's thought. But an unspecified St. Martin's employee? Give me a bleeping break. If nothing else, SMP has way too many entry-level employees.

Not that I'd be inclined to swallow the story anyway, because it's palpably false. I work in the industry. In fact, I work in a part of the industry not far removed from SMP. (Could you tell?) Here's something I know from direct personal everyday knowledge: the many, many "writers, editors, and even other companies" one meets with in trade publishing are, for the most part, completely unaware of AW's existence.

(Consolingly, people in trade publishing are even less aware of the existence of PublishAmerica. In spite of Willem's boasts, PA is so far from being a threat to conventional publishing that the company doesn't even register as a noticeable object. But then, why should PA show up on the industry's radar screens? They don't take returns, they don't offer a proper discount, they don't market their books, their prices are unrealistic, and they don't get brick-and-mortar distribution. This renders them perfectly irrelevant.)

But to return to Absolute Write: given the industry's lack of acquaintance with AW, I can't believe for a moment that people in it have negative opinions about the board. Sorry, not possible. No acquaintance = no opinions = no negative opinions = load of codswallop.

Burying Ossa under Pelion, I am even less ready to believe that these allegedly numerous industry professionals were so indiscreet as to share their allegedly negative opinions of a popular online writers' venue with some self-important little nobody who'll run off to blather everything she's heard to the public bulletin boards. (Which, you'll note, she has done.) Working in a publishing house is like sitting in the middle of an echo chamber. You deal with authors, reviewers, artists, publicists, freelancers, et cetera, and the ilk, and more et cetera, none of whom have the slightest natural inclination to keep their mouths shut. Lifers don't gossip with stray wanna-bes.

The crowning piece of nonsense was the line about how "It is not wise to be a writer who defames a publisher, any publisher." Does this person know any? For authors, slagging off publishers is a basic bodily function. If they tried to hold it in, they'd surely explode. I'm sure you've all noticed by now how few news reports one hears about exploding authors. You may draw your own conclusions.

I'm sorry that I posted my post. Honestly, I should have stayed out of it. I didn't talk to my friend by email, I talked to her in person just before xmas. She was home from New York, and we met at a party. We went to high school together. Yes, I would say she is low level in the company. That's all I'll say about that. If you look at the site I run you will see that I have contact with many writers and editors. Why would they spend their time getting into something like this go between? There are no links and no proof, but go to google and type in "book publishers." Ask yourself how many times a day that happens. Notice that PA is number 3 on the page. Then go to google and type in Publish America and see that AW is numbers 9 and 10 on the page, but this site comes up in 4 or 5 of the sites listed before the links to this thread or this site. I don't know how many hits this site is taking a day, but I would bet a some of it is coming from the chain of events I just put down.

You don't really think people aren't reading this thread, do you? HapiSofi you said you were the publishing industry, but no one from the industry knows about this site? Do you? I'm sorry about what I said because I do not know how wide spread the view is. James is much more connected with the industry than I am, and if he says no one will think less of you, I would go with what he is saying. I'm only repeating what others have said to me, and if the words Publish America come up, this thread comes up. This is a public forum and many people come here. I do not know the heads of any publishing companies. I'm not well connect in any way other than a few friends I have from when I used to work in publishing, and by running my website. I'm sorry I said what I said because this isn't the place for it, and I understand that. The topic came up, I jumped in without thinking, and I shouldn't have posted.

Maybe I shouldn't post this post either, I don't know. I just don't want to leave it hanging out there like it is some lie. I would have deleted my other post sooner, but I went and took a shower and while I was in the shower I thought, I really shouldn't have done that. So I came back and deleted it, but someone had already quoted it a couple of times. So this is to clear it up. If you want to ask me question I will answer them as honestly as I can.

[egem]

Just to follow up my last post. Go to this site: http://www.kottke.org/02/06/top-ten-search-engines type in book publishers or book publishing and see if PA doesn't come up either number 1 or at least in the top 10 on every one of these search engines.

[Birol]

Egem, I want to make certain that I'm following what you are saying. Are you saying that because when an person types 'book publisher' into a search engine as a keyword search and Publisher America comes back as one of the top sites listed that it is indeed a book publisher?

[Medievalist]

Just to follow up my last post. Go to this site: http://www.kottke.org/02/06/top-ten-search-engines type in book publishers or book publishing and see if PA doesn't come up either number 1 or at least in the top 10 on every one of these search engines.

That's essentially meaningless Egem; I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove.

Go to Google and type medievalist, or Yahoo, or Altavista or whatever; I suspect I'll be in the top ten, at least.

And no, I'm not famous even in my tiny little pond--but I have a web site with a lot of content, which means traffic, which means links, which means relatively high search engine ranking. And that's all it means.

Publish America is going to be associated with the word "publisher" because of their own rhetoric just as much as I am associated with medievalist--it doesn't really say anything about the quality of either entity.

[egem]

Egem, I want to make certain that I'm following what you are saying. Are you saying that because when an person types 'book publisher' into a search engine as a keyword search and Publisher America comes back as one of the top sites listed that it is indeed a book publisher?

Not by the longest of long shots am I saying that. I'm saying that PA has become very popular, and that AW is connected to PA due to this thread. If I'm an everyday guy or gal and I write a book what am I going to type in to find a publisher? Where am I going to go? I'm going to type in "book publishers" to a searchengine if I don't know anything about publishing. The next think I'm going to do is find PA. The thing I'll do after that is type in Publish America into a search engine to see what I get, and bing I come up with AW. This is what everyone on this board wants to happen, I think. It is meant to warn people, isn't it? It is doing exactly what it is supposed to do in many ways, but I don't think people on this board should be telling themselves that no one else is reading this board or these posts. A lot of people know AW by finding this thead about PA. How many editors and writers do you think pass through here each day. Don't you think that other publishers want to know who they are up against? They too search for other publishers or have someone at their company banging the keyboard to see who else is out there. Maybe the big guys don't care. I don't know. I said I wasn't that connected.

[egem]

That's essentially meaningless Egem; I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove.

Go to Google and type medievalist, or Yahoo, or Altavista or whatever; I suspect I'll be in the top ten, at least.

And no, I'm not famous even in my tiny little pond--but I have a web site with a lot of content, which means traffic, which means links, which means relatively high search engine ranking. And that's all it means.

Publish America is going to be assoicated with the word "publisher" because of their own rhetoric just as much as I am associated with medievalist--it doesn't really say anything about the quality of either entity.

Maybe you are more well known than you think. Your name full name Lisa brings back 894 hits on google. I would guess less people are typing Medievalist than book publisher. I'm not sure.

Also, I would like to know why the chicken crossed the road, and I love chilli.

[Medievalist]

A lot of people know AW by finding this thead about PA. How many editors and writers do you think pass through here each day. Don't you think that other publishers want to know who they are up against? They too search for other publishers or have someone at their company banging the keyboard to see who else is out there. Maybe the big guys don't care. I don't know. I said I wasn't that connected.

Egem

It's not like that. First, publishing is an exceedingly incestuous trade. This was true even before all the Really Big Publishers ate lots of smaller houses, but now, it's even more true. The people at academic publishers know their colleagues--they read the same journals, attend the same conferences, and court the same authors. This is true for pretty much all the other kinds of publishing--they don't Google each other, they know each other by their books. They live books. They exchange books with their peers. They go to bookstores, they gossip about who got what ms. from what agent at what price, and who has left what house for another gig. This is especially true of genre publishing, by the way--people participate in the culture. PublishAmerica doesn't participate.

It doesn't hurt that NY is really the center of publishing in the US, with satellite clusters in other areas. Publish America, because it isn't a publisher, doesn't move in the same circles--so no one cares. And frankly, the minute someone knowledgeable about publishing sees a PublishAmerica book, they know they're a printer not a publisher. It's that obvious.

And in terms of the dangers of bad mouthing publishers, well, that's a fact of life. Authors talk about their agents, their editors, their designers even--and editors do much the same about authors. That's human nature. And publishers buy books all the time from people that, personally, they'd just as soon have nothing to do with, ever--but the ms. is what they're interested in, not the person. Yeah, if you're obnoxious, word gets around, and yes, there's a limit to what publishers/agents/editors will take (or authors--it works both ways). But trust me, the Random Houses, Macmillans, Tors, Harlequins, Wiley et al don't really care about Publish America; it's not like PublishAmerica is a competitor.

The reason people like Victoria Strauss, the Macdonald, Hapi Sofi and others care is because they care about writers.

Oh--and publishing is so incestuous that I guarantee you I could in five minutes of phone calls find a publishing contact in my niche (academic, e-books, and consumer computer) who knows one of those three I just mentioned, or knows someone who does. And I'm a very very tiny brine shrimp in a very large pond.

Incestuous.

[HapiSofi]

I'm sorry that I posted my post. Honestly, I should have stayed out of it. I didn't talk to my friend by email, I talked to her in person just before xmas. She was home from New York, and we met at a party. We went to high school together. Yes, I would say she is low level in the company. That's all I'll say about that.Just as well.If you look at the site I run you will see that I have contact with many writers and editors.Guy, I've got nothing against stapled publications, but if there's a bright center to the literary galaxy, you're working in a McDonald's on Tatooine. Every time I see you explaining your version of how publishing works, it sounds like you're talking about a small college literary magazine.Why would they spend their time getting into something like this go between? There are no links and no proof, but go to google and type in "book publishers." Ask yourself how many times a day that happens. Notice that PA is number 3 on the page. Then go to google and type in Publish America and see that AW is numbers 9 and 10 on the page, but this site comes up in 4 or 5 of the sites listed before the links to this thread or this site. I don't know how many hits this site is taking a day, but I would bet a some of it is coming from the chain of events I just put down.You'd lose.

Don't make too much of that Google ranking thing, by the way. I know people who can type their own first names into Google and come up #1 in the rankings. It's not that big a deal.You don't really think people aren't reading this thread, do you?Of course people are reading this thread. What I said was that the industry isn't reading it.HapiSofi you said you were the publishing industry, but no one from the industry knows about this site? Do you?Well, in the area you're talking about, there's me, and Andy Zack, and Lisa Spangenberg -- she posts as Medievalist -- and PiscusFiche, and a bunch of pro authors like Jim and Victoria and Ann Crispin who also know the industry fairly well, and Beth Bernobich who's going to go pro. That's not the whole list of people here who freelance, edit, write, do production, etc., but they are in the appropriate neighborhood. And within that area? They're a tiny fraction of the whole.I'm sorry about what I said because I do not know how wide spread the view is. James is much more connected with the industry than I am, and if he says no one will think less of you, I would go with what he is saying. I'm only repeating what others have said to me, and if the words Publish America come up, this thread comes up. This is a public forum and many people come here. I do not know the heads of any publishing companies. I'm not well connect in any way other than a few friends I have from when I used to work in publishing,Staples.and by running my website. I'm sorry I said what I said because this isn't the place for it, and I understand that. The topic came up, I jumped in without thinking, and I shouldn't have posted.

Maybe I shouldn't post this post either, I don't know. I just don't want to leave it hanging out there like it is some lie. I would have deleted my other post sooner, but I went and took a shower and while I was in the shower I thought, I really shouldn't have done that. So I came back and deleted it, but someone had already quoted it a couple of times. So this is to clear it up. If you want to ask me question I will answer them as honestly as I can.Sorry. Nothing appropriate occurs to me just now.

[egem]

Egem

It's not like that. First, publishing is an exceedingly incestuous trade. This was true even before all the Really Big Publishers ate lots of smaller houses, but now, it's even more true. The people at academic publishers know their colleagues--they read the same journals, attend the same conferences, and court the same authors. This is true for pretty much all the other kinds of publishing--they don't Google each other, they know each other by their books. They live books. They exchange books with their peers. They go to bookstores, they gossip about who got what ms. from what agent at what price, and who has left what house for another gig. This is especially true of genre publishing, by the way--people participate in the culture. Publish America doesn't participate.

It doesn't hurt that NY is really the center of publishing in the US, with satellite clusters in other areas. Publish America, because it isn't a publisher, doesn't move in the same circles--so no one cares. And frankly, the minute someone knowledgeable about publishing sees a Publish America book, they know they're a printer not a publisher. It's that obvious.

And in terms of the dangers of bad mouthing publishers, well, that's a fact of life. Authors talk about their agents, their editors, their designers even--and editors do much the same about authors. That's human nature. And publishers buy books all the time from people that, personally, they'd just as soon have nothing to do with, ever--but the ms. is what they're interested in, not the person. Yeah, if you're obnoxious, word gets around, and yes, there's a limit to what publishers/agents/editors will take (or authors--it works both ways). But trust me, the Random Houses, Macmillans, Tors, Harlequins, Wiley et al don't really care about Publish America; it's not like Publish America is a competitor.

The reason people like Victoria Strauss, the Macdonald, Hapi Sofi and others care is because they care about writers.

Oh--and publishing is so incestuous that I guarantee you I could in five minutes of phone calls find a publishing contact in my niche (academic, e-books, and consumer computer) who knows one of those three I just mentioned, or knows someone who does. And I'm a very very tiny brine shrimp in a very large pond.

Incestuous.

Okay. I said I didn't know. I know about academic publishing, but most academics wouldn't just type book publisher into a searchengine. I think I agree with you, so I'm not sure what the go round is about. Maybe I'm miss reading things.

I think you missed my first deleted post. My new posts were addressing the old one. I don't know how many publishing house people come through here everyday, do you? I'm really only saying that people are reading this thread (this should be a good thing). I said before that a few editors and 1 low level person from St. Martin's Press tanked this whole situation. I thought people were saying, more or less, that not many people know about this site. I think that is way wrong. I then put down a way that people find this site through typing "book publishers" and then "publish america" into a searchengine. We are now working on the question what type of people type "book publishers" in to a searchengine. My answer is: I'm not sure, maybe people who have written a novel or a some type of book, and maybe some editors and publishers, but if you say otherwise okay.

[HapiSofi]

Not by the longest of long shots am I saying that. I'm saying that PA has become very popular, and that AW is connected to PA due to this thread. If I'm an everyday guy or gal and I write a book what am I going to type in to find a publisher? Where am I going to go? I'm going to type in "book publishers" to a searchengine if I don't know anything about publishing. The next think I'm going to do is find PA. The thing I'll do after that is type in Publish America into a search engine to see what I get, and bing I come up with AW. This is what everyone on this board wants to happen, I think. It is meant to warn people, isn't it? It is doing exactly what it is supposed to do in many ways, but I don't think people on this board should be telling themselves that no one else is reading this board or these posts. A lot of people know AW by finding this thead about PA. How many editors and writers do you think pass through here each day. Don't you think that other publishers want to know who they are up against? They too search for other publishers or have someone at their company banging the keyboard to see who else is out there. Maybe the big guys don't care. I don't know. I said I wasn't that connected.Egem, have you got a book coming out from PublishAmerica?

[egem]

Egem, have you got a book coming out from PublishAmerica?

HapiSofi what do you want from me? I've said what I think in a nice, kind, even understanding way, and you attack, attack, attack. I did nothing to you. I disagreed with one thing you said, and then I said others here were the experts, and that people should listen to them. So what do you want? Do you want to run me off the board? Do you not want me to post on this thread any longer? I even said I was sorry for posting my first post about this. I'm not sure what you are fighting so hard against here. Is it just me? It seems that way. Is it because I hold a different view of writing and publishing than you do? Yes I write poetry. Yes I read journals like the mid-american review and Glimmer Train and many others. I know the editors of some university publications. I am a poet, what do you expect? Should no writer other than a scifi writer be allowed to put pen to paper? No publishing other than commercial publishing matters? Is this the place where only your views are allowed to be voiced? If so please post that at on the front door.

[aruna]

I didn't sign with PA. But that was mostly luck. I was lucky that I found AW and a few other sites that had the truth. It was completely accidental.

.

In 1998, when I finished my first novel, I didn't have internet access. I am 100% certain that if I'd had it, I would have signed with PA. I was extremely naive about the publishing business, and had no experience of scams. I would have swallowed it all down whole. Gosh, I was so innocent of the ways of the world!

If I were doing the same today, though, I would have googled PA first, and come up with this thread. You can bet your bottom dollar that I would NOT, today, make that mistake!

[LloydBrown]

Egem, you don't have to agree with everyone else. You just have to make sense, somewhere, some time. Your sentences are one non sequitur after another. I recommend making a coherent argument sometime.

[Christine N.]

PA comes up in the top of a Google search because they pay to be there. Just like AuthorHouse and Xlibris. Notice Random House, HarperCollins and St. Martin's Press.... don't. They don't need any help getting authors.

[Aconite]

I'm sorry I said what I said because this isn't the place for it, and I understand that.
People aren't objecting because "this isn't the place for it." People are objecting because what you said is a steaming pile of bullsh!t. You've been caught in several lies by now, egem. Aren't you at all embarrassed by that?

I notice your reply to HapiSofi didn't answer his question about whether or not you have a book out with PA. I believe you do, despite your assertions elsewhere that you have nothing at all to do with PA and are just defending them out of the goodness of your heart. As you've been caught in other lies, you'll understand if I don't just take you at your word.

[Aconite]

Notice Random House, HarperCollins and St. Martin's Press.... don't. They don't need any help getting authors.
Commercial publishers are in the business of selling books to the public, not of pulling in thousands of authors whose books sell a handful each. The book-buying public doesn't Google "book publisher" and say, "Oh, good! That's who I'll buy books from!" Nor do the kinds of authors who sell to St. Martin's, Random House, HarperCollins and so on Google "book publisher" and say, "Oh, good! That's who I'll send my manuscript to!"

No, the kind of people inexperienced enough to Google "book publisher" and think, "Oh, good! I'll send my manuscript there!" are exactly the ones PA, AuthorHouse, and XLibris are looking for--the ones likely to be sucked into vanity publishing.

Try this: Go to your bookshelves. Pull down any commercially published book. Go to that publisher's website. What's the focus on? Selling books to the public. Can you even find their submission guidelines on their site? In many cases, no, because the purpose of their website isn't pulling in scads of new authors.

Now try the same with PA, AuthorHouse, and XLibris.

[Ken Schneider]

I'm saying that PA has become very popular, and that AW is connected to PA due to this thread.

And that's the way we want it to be.

If someone googles PA and AW is right there, they can get the scoop on the scam.

I'm stupefied by people who think that former PA authors don't know of what they speak about that company. Or, that they are somehow wrong, and expected to be rich and famous. I expected them to do what they insinuated in there contract and on their website.

For any relative new-comer to read the PA website now, verus two years ago, would not see what I saw,and wouldn't understand. PA, because of the pressure, has changed some of their wording.

PA is popular on the web in searching for authors, while other publishers search for readers.

[Lisa Y]

I'm confused about what anyone, publishing industry or not not, would have against a website helpful to authors. The editor in chief, the moderators, and the majority of the posters (official authors and not yet official authors) are fair and honest. Who would have a problem (other than a scammy publisher)? Sorry if my ignorance is showing, but I just don't get it. :Huh:

[spike]

Emphasis mine.

Not by the longest of long shots am I saying that. I'm saying that PA has become very popular, and that AW is connected to PA due to this thread. If I'm an everyday guy or gal and I write a book what am I going to type in to find a publisher? Where am I going to go? I'm going to type in "book publishers" to a searchengine if I don't know anything about publishing. The next think I'm going to do is find PA. The thing I'll do after that is type in Publish America into a search engine to see what I get, and bing I come up with AW. This is what everyone on this board wants to happen, I think. It is meant to warn people, isn't it? It is doing exactly what it is supposed to do in many ways, but I don't think people on this board should be telling themselves that no one else is reading this board or these posts. A lot of people know AW by finding this thead about PA. How many editors and writers do you think pass through here each day. Don't you think that other publishers want to know who they are up against? They too search for other publishers or have someone at their company banging the keyboard to see who else is out there. Maybe the big guys don't care. I don't know. I said I wasn't that connected.

I think the everyday guy or gal is going to go to the library (that is where they keep the books). Maybe take a course at the Community College (in the US). And then find a Writer's Market Guide.

[TwentyFour]

Try this: Go to your bookshelves. Pull down any commercially published book. Go to that publisher's website. What's the focus on? Selling books to the public. Can you even find their submission guidelines on their site? In many cases, no, because the purpose of their website isn't pulling in scads of new authors.

Now try the same with PA, AuthorHouse, and XLibris.

I did that months ago before I found this forum after reading so many sites like PA and Authorhouse. I bookmarked the sites I felt my WIP would fit into and future WIP ms. might fit. It is hard to find submission guidelines on those pages...usually it takes some searching! I looked at books from the genre I am writing in and emailed some of my favorite authors from the publishers website to say how I enjoyed their novels.

[James D. Macdonald]

People, if what you want to say is not directly related to PublishAmerica and PublishAmerica's business practices, DO NOT POST IT HERE.

Thank you.

[Jean Marie]

People, if what you want to say is not directly related to PublishAmerica and PublishAmerica's business practices, DO NOT POST IT HERE.

Thank you.

Okay. Is the following more like what you have in mind Jim?

PA is nothing but a printer, a lousy one at that. Yes, Kinko's is better, they use up to date laser technology, Kinko's does, not PA. PA is run by 3 scumbags, one of whom has a documented criminal past. That alone should give any lurkers some insight as to who they're dealing w/ when wondering/questioning said honesty regarding royalty checks.

The cover art is not proprietary, instead it's copy/pasted from public domain. That's why the edges are blurry and tend to bleed. You didn't really believe the doo doo about PA laying $ out for the cr@p they claim their "artists" slave over, did you?

IF you choose for them to edit your work, all you get is spell check. So, if you've got any kids in your house over the age of 3 allow them first shot.

When/if your rights are ever returned to you, it's relatively meaningless as they will continue to sell your work anyway.

Okay, Jim, is that more like it?

[tarra74]

Has any PA author ever moved on to become published commercially or does being under contract(s) with PA completely ruin an author’s chances of being published commercially? I have two contracts with PA. Am I doomed forever as far as commercial publishers go?



My ultimate goal is and has always been to be published with Harlequin. For the manuscript I’m writing now, I’m planning to save up the money and having it critiqued professionally through Harlequin’s critiquing services so I can find out where my weaknesses are and what I need to fix to hopefully increase my chances of being published by Harlequin. Since I’m under two contracts with PA, does anyone here think this would be a waste of my time, money, and efforts, or would it be a step in the right direction?

[Tilly]

It's my understanding that if you don't mention the books you'll be fine.

They won't hold PA against you, and if you don't give the impression you see the PA books as a professional writing credit, you shouldn't have a problem.
I don't know anything about Harlequin's critique service, but I hope you succeed in placing something with them. :)

[MacAllister]

That's more than enough, people. You've been asked repeatedly to stay on topic in this thread. We've provided other threads to hold all manner of goofing around and tangential discussions.

Shelagh, Jean Marie--knock it off. Anyone else tempted to jump in, don't do it.

Shelagh, this is hardly your first time here, so knock off the bullsh!t. You know perfectly well your immortal words have been moved (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=474215&postcount=3115), not deleted.

I am pretty angry, though, at this point. I'm about to start simply deleting the off-topic baiting posts, wholesale. Whine all you want. I can delete in an eyeblink, as opposed to the laborious process of porting.

One more time--use your ignore button, if you cannot control yourself enough to go respond over in TIO. Do NOT post responses to Shelagh's off topic nonsense here.

Just. Don't.

No.

I really mean it.

[Sootie]

Jean Marie said: PA lost their arbitration w/ Phil Dolan for not paying royalties that were due him. It was a fair hearing, they lost and are now required to pay him full damages. Hence there is documented proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that PA does indeed steal from their authors.
And that is the truth about PublishAmerica, Jean Marie. They steal, lie, and crush their authors' dreams. Proven documented facts cannot be disputed. (Try as they may.)

Sootie. :e2cloud9:

[SeanDSchaffer]

And that is the truth about PublishAmerica, Jean Marie. They steal, lie, and crush their authors' dreams. Proven documented facts cannot be disputed. (Try as they may.)

Sootie. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/e2cloud9.gif


As attested by countless PA authors on this and plenty of other good writing sites, there is no truer statement than the one Sootie posted above. PA will take your book and hold it hostage for seven years; they won't do a good editing job, even if you allow them to edit it; they will give it a substandard cover; they will give it a high, uncompetitive price; they will not actively market your book but rather expect you to do it; they will give short discounts to bookstores and make the majority of their books non-returnable to bookstores, discouraging bookstores from carrying your books; and they will then tell you it's all your fault that the book didn't sell when you get a royalty check for a few measly dollars.

If you're looking into a publisher, this PA author heartily recommends you find one other than PA. They are not good to their writers, or their writers' books.

[Susan Gable]

My ultimate goal is and has always been to be published with Harlequin. For the manuscript I’m writing now, I’m planning to save up the money and having it critiqued professionally through Harlequin’s critiquing services so I can find out where my weaknesses are and what I need to fix to hopefully increase my chances of being published by Harlequin. Since I’m under two contracts with PA, does anyone here think this would be a waste of my time, money, and efforts, or would it be a step in the right direction?

Hi, Tarra! Harlequin won't hold the PA books against you if you've got what they're looking for. Though in fact, my advice to you would be not to mention the PA books when you query HQ. Just pretend they don't even exist. Harlequin buys new authors every year. In fact, Super just bought another new author (this one from New Zealand) last week.

As to using the Harlequin crit service, I don't know if it's a waste of money or not, but I can tell you that you can learn what you need to know without using it. Again, I know many people who sell to them without using it.

Private message me or email me (you can email me from my website found in my sig here), and we can talk about it in greater depths so we're not off-topic for this thread. (Since I already addressed my opinion of the PA connection and Harlequin. <G> Which also applies to all other publishers, too. If you've got a PA book, just don't mention it. )

Susan G.

[James D. Macdonald]

Has any PA author ever moved on to become published commercially or does being under contract(s) with PA completely ruin an author’s chances of being published commercially? I have two contracts with PA. Am I doomed forever as far as commercial publishers go?

John Laurence Robinson (who posts here as Gravity) is just one such person. James McCann, who posts here as Canada James, is another.

These folks, and many others, went on to commercial publication. Not because of PA, but in spite of it.

Most writers have unpublished, and unpublishable, early works in their desk drawers. I know I do. That some took those unpublishable early works and sent them to Frederick, Maryland, doesn't mean that they couldn't grow and learn as writers. The act of writing and finishing a novel teaches you more about writing novels than reading any number of how-to books.

Other writers had perfectly publishable early novels ... which they unfortunately sent to Frederick, Maryland.

PublishAmerica takes the good with the bad, the competent with the inept, and puts it all out in overpriced editions with poor production values and laughable distribution.

Just don't put your PublishAmerica books in your cover letter. They aren't publishing credits. Editors either have never heard of PA, or, worse, they have.

[egem]

Has any PA author ever moved on to become published commercially or does being under contract(s) with PA completely ruin an author’s chances of being published commercially? I have two contracts with PA. Am I doomed forever as far as commercial publishers go?



My ultimate goal is and has always been to be published with Harlequin. For the manuscript I’m writing now, I’m planning to save up the money and having it critiqued professionally through Harlequin’s critiquing services so I can find out where my weaknesses are and what I need to fix to hopefully increase my chances of being published by Harlequin. Since I’m under two contracts with PA, does anyone here think this would be a waste of my time, money, and efforts, or would it be a step in the right direction?

Tarra74 I think you should get all side of the coin here. Read this fast because it will go to the overflow quickly. I would say that PA is not the first choice of many authors, but you will find that many who have published with them are bright outstanding people. If you go to google and go under google news and type in "publish america" with quotes you will see the recent news from newspapers on who is publishing with your publisher. Many people like to say that these authors are idiots and all other sorts of nonsense, but I don't think that way at all. Never feel badly about the books you have published.

Here's a link to news about a Doctor who was published by PA in 2004 http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=177101059

He works at Tuffs and at Harvard http://www.webmd.com/content/Biography/1/1756_50235.htm. He might not have done his research, I don't know. He did publish the book in 2004, and I think this thread was running at that time (so he was warned I'm sure). He may even think that PA was the worst mistake of his life, but 2 years after his book was published they still mentioned it in the press release for him taking over as science content editor of Psychiatric Times. If it doesn't hurt him, it might not hurt you to put it on your resume.

[MacAllister]

Egem said: He may even think that PA was the worst mistake of his life, but 2 years after his book was published they still mentioned it in the press release for him taking over as science content editor of Psychiatric Times. If it doesn't hurt him, it might not hurt you to put it on your resume.

Tarra74, Susan Gable (http://www.susangable.com/books_by_susan_gable.htm) has books published by Harlequin. "Books," as in "more than one." Jim Macdonald (http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/) has books (again, plural) published with several major houses, including Tor--the holy grail house of SF/F writer-newbies.

Egem knows nothing about publishing. What little he has picked up along the way, he gets wrong. He may have a book coming out with PA--we don't know. He dodges that question, every time it comes up.

I don't know why he continues to advocate for PA in this thread. I'm not porting his post to overflow, because his misinformed, delusional garbage should be addressed and corrected, as publically as possible.

If you have questions, by all means ask them--but then consider carefully the source of the answers you get.

[rekirts]

Did egem ever answer that all important question--Do you have a book coming out with PA?

I am totally confused as to why anyone who pretends to care about writers--emphasis on the word pretends--would advocate having anything to do with PA. People who really care about authors try to protect them from making mistakes.

I read some of the stories of former PA authors and it's disgusting what that printer does to people. The stress has caused health problems for more than one person caught in their evil schemes.

[LloydBrown]

I don't know why he continues to advocate for PA in this thread. I'm not porting his post to overflow, because his misinformed, delusional garbage should be addressed and corrected, as publically as possible.

I think I'm figuring out why egg-em (as in "egg 'em on") is on this thread. No human being could maintain that level of ignorance by accident. It's clearly deliberate cage-rattling.

If I had chosen PA as a printer, I would absolutely not volunteer it to a publisher. If they find out, I can't imagine it's a big deal, though. Think of it as one of those stupid things you did in college. Yeah, it was dumb, but it made some kind of drunken sense at the time.

In a query or proposal, however, the time and space you have in which to make your point is finite. Mentioning PA shows a misinformed view of the publishing procedure and a misguided image of what publisher's want.

[rekirts]

I think I'm figuring out why egg-em (as in "egg 'em on") is on this thread. No human being could maintain that level of ignorance by accident. It's clearly deliberate cage-rattling. snip


That makes sense.

[Sheryl Nantus]

Tarra74 - LISTEN to what Susan G. has to say. Head over to the Romance forum and take advantage of the many excellent PUBLISHED authors on this board for real information that will help you move upwards and away from PA.

forget your PA books ever existed - consider them part of a delusional period in your life and look back on them as part of your apprenticeship in learning your skills as a writer and as an author. You can do much better than PA and you will, as long as you recognise them as only a hinderance to any serious writer pursuing a career in this field.

good luck and get thee hence to that forum!!!

[Tilly]

(snip) Many people like to say that these authors are idiots and all other sorts of nonsense, but I don't think that way at all. Never feel badly about the books you have published. (snip)


It would be bizarre if the people on this thread regarded PA authors as idiots, given how many used to be PA authors. Many others of us who haven't signed with PA, and who find this thread, think there but for the grace of god.

[SC Harrison]

Here's a link to news about a Doctor who was published by PA in 2004 http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=177101059

.

What book are you referring to? No PA book is mentioned in the article, and no PA book shows up on Amazon for this guy.

[AnneMarble]

For the manuscript I’m writing now, I’m planning to save up the money and having it critiqued professionally through Harlequin’s critiquing services so I can find out where my weaknesses are and what I need to fix to hopefully increase my chances of being published by Harlequin. Since I’m under two contracts with PA, does anyone here think this would be a waste of my time, money, and efforts, or would it be a step in the right direction?
Have you checked out Absolute Write's Romance writing board (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=37) yet? You might find someone on that board who has used this service, or knows someone who has. They might also be able to recommend other services, or romance critique groups, etc.

To keep this on-topic... :) Oh, and another former PA author who has been picked up by another publisher is Diana Hignutt. And there is somebody obvious that I can't think of right now. :D

Edited to say: Oh, duh! Dee Power (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0793193087/qid=1138562853/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-7024237-4708069?s=books&v=glance&n=283155). :D

[Sheryl Nantus]

egem is nothing more than a pretender to the throne, attempting to divert attention away from the VERY informed sources on this thread that actually have been published by legitimate publishers and are offering their knowledge for free.

given a choice between the twaddle put out by egem and the wisdom put out by Susan G. and Uncle Jim, among others, I'll put my money on those who have real publishing records - not some anonymous source who keeps forgetting what the question was and whose literary background is sparse, if any.

PA has been proven again and again to be a very slimy outfit - from the Dolan arbitration to the PublishBritannica farce to ripping off not only their current authors but those who have been released from their contracts. Supporting them only brings your own personal integrity into question as well as your intention to be a serious writer.

[Jean Marie]

Tara74, I would echo what Sheryl just said. As Susan Gable is published by Harlequin, and has generously offered to email you, I'd listen to her. Susan is a professional and therefore has the expertise you seek.

I have personal experience w/ what happens when you mention PA in a query letter to an agent: It's thrown away. I'm an exPA'er who has my rights back and is now in the query process.

Mentioning PA as a credit is not a credit as PA is a printer, not a publisher. They're recognized as such. Continue writing and you'll get all the help you need here at AW.

[ResearchGuy]

...Since I’m under two contracts with PA, does anyone here think this would be a waste of my time, money, and efforts, or would it be a step in the right direction?
My vote: a step in the right direction.

Write an excellent book (with excellence being relative to the audience, genre, and so on) and pursue publication the right way. My little corner of the universe suggests that agents and publishers want good manuscripts, and all the more so if there is the promise of more of them to come. I suspect that most agents and acquisitions editors have their hands too full evaluating manuscripts to bother much over previous PA publication. That should be pretty much irrelevant (IF the author does not attempt to tout it as a real publication).

For whatever it is worth, there is a supposedly hard-headed book of advice to aspiring writers titled Some Writers Deserve to Starve (a Writer's Digest Book Club selection, by the way!) that actually recommends PA as an option for aspiring writers. I was appalled when I saw that while browsing through the book at Barnes & Noble last year. Obviously there is some serious noise in the communications channel. (That book is an unattractive mess, by the way -- clever title, but ugly design. Tacky and cluttered. For the life of me, I do not know why any book club picked it up.)

--Ken

[SeanDSchaffer]

John Laurence Robinson (who posts here as Gravity) is just one such person. James McCann, who posts here as Canada James, is another.

....Snipped.


Another good example, Tarra74, is Sparhawk (He used to go by Esper, I believe, on the PAMB.) He just got an acceptance for one of his books from a legit house.

I can't remember which house, but I believe he mentioned it at the Goals and Accomplishments Board here, and he is very excited about it.

[Christine N.]

Tee Hee... I was just going to mention him. Sparhawk's book will be published by LBF.

Diana Hignutt, who got tons of publicity for her PA, went on to publish with a legitimate house. Who else? I can't think of anyone else at the moment, but I'm sure there are more.

PA is an equal opportunity offender - they take the good and the bad. And being "accpeted" by PA doesn't tell you which yours (I mean the global 'yours') actually is.

[Sheryl Nantus]

exactly.

the smart PA authors are those who move onwards and upwards and mark their PA time down to temporary insanity or some such thing... not those who continue to defend this company of convicted criminals.

[Susan Gable]

For whatever it is worth, there is a supposedly hard-headed book of advice to aspiring writers titled Some Writers Deserve to Starve (a Writer's Digest Book Club selection, by the way!) that actually recommends PA as an option for aspiring writers. I was appalled when I saw that while browsing through the book at Barnes & Noble last year. Obviously there is some serious noise in the communications channel. (That book is an unattractive mess, by the way -- clever title, but ugly design. Tacky and cluttered. For the life of me, I do not know why any book club picked it up.)

--Ken

Ken, I read that book. In fact, I also reviewed it on Amazon. Not a very good book. I think the author also had a book out with PA and that's why PA was being recommended.

PA fooled many people and organizations for a while. One writers' organization I belong to, Pennwriters, gave recognition to PA writers for a while -- until the evidence came out that they are nothing more than a reverse vanity publisher. Then the rules for published status in the group were rewritten in a way so that this type of thing doesn't happen again. (The people in the group with books from PA who were already granted recognition by the organization were NOT "stripped" of that recognition, but were "grandfathered" in.)

Susan G.

[Sheryl Nantus]

PA fooled many people and organizations for a while. One writers' organization I belong to, Pennwriters, gave recognition to PA writers for a while -- until the evidence came out that they are nothing more than a reverse vanity publisher. Then the rules for published status in the group were rewritten in a way so that this type of thing doesn't happen again. (The people in the group with books from PA who were already granted recognition by the organization were NOT "stripped" of that recognition, but were "grandfathered" in.)

Susan G.

and there's another HUGE red flag that serious writers should consider - if various writing groups such as the Authors' Guild do NOT consider publishing credits with PA to be legitimate writing credits...

well, then what the heck are you doing with PA?

don't buy into the hype about conspiracies and about how the huge publishing industry is going to be revolutionized and all that... if these writing organizations do NOT recognize PA as a legitimate publisher, then why would you expect the bookstores to?

[JennaGlatzer]

Tired of the game. Egem, that was the last lie you'll tell here.

[Cathy C]

First, WOO! Congrats to everyone here for seeing that the NEPAT has lasted to 30,000 posts! Keep the fire burning!



Since Mac has decided that we can respond to this post, I thought I would. You probably won't see me posting on this forum too often. It's not for lack of interest. I do read most everything here, but I seldom can add anything more to the discussion. In this case, I think I can:

Tarra74 I think you should get all side of the coin here.

Tarra74, egem is right. Always look at both sides of the coin, and make your choice based on solid advice from people with experience, as much information as you can find, and your own intelligence, rather than emotional beliefs.

Read this fast because it will go to the overflow quickly.

egem, you make it sound as if the Overflow thread is somehow not available to the general AW member. Unlike critical or questioning postings on other boards, which are deleted without comment before people can ask too many questions, the Mods at AW like to believe that people are intelligent and can make their own choices adequately if given enough information.

I would say that PA is not the first choice of many authors,

I'm hoping you're right.

but you will find that many who have published with them are bright outstanding people.

Nobody ever said they weren't. I've met several PA authors and they are just as desirous of a real publishing career as any published author. Unfortunately, most of the ones I've met don't understand that they're NOT published---only printed.


If you go to google and go under google news and type in "publish america" with quotes you will see the recent news from newspapers on who is publishing with your publisher.


How fascinating! I didn't realize that you'd get a different selection of sites when adding the quotation marks and lower case letters. Charlie, could you take care of adding this as one of the crawler terms for this thread?


Many people like to say that these authors are idiots and all other sorts of nonsense, but I don't think that way at all. Never feel badly about the books you have published.


Absolutely correct. One should never feel bad about a book that's been completed. But "published"? Afraid not.


Here's a link to news about a Doctor who was published by PA in 2004 http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=177101059

He works at Tuffs and at Harvard http://www.webmd.com/content/Biography/1/1756_50235.htm. He might not have done his research, I don't know.


I don't know either, but as a practicing psychiatrist, I'd be highly surprised if he didn't. Again, there's nothing saying it's not a good book. It might be. It might be groundbreaking. But it's still not published.

He did publish the book in 2004, and I think this thread was running at that time (so he was warned I'm sure). He may even think that PA was the worst mistake of his life,

Only he would know that for sure.


but 2 years after his book was published they still mentioned it in the press release for him taking over as science content editor of Psychiatric Times. If it doesn't hurt him, it might not hurt you to put it on your resume


No, printing a book with PA will never hurt a writer. It will only hurt THE BOOK. But the problem is that many people only have one or two books in them. Ever. There just might not be a steady stream of ideas, or the author might not be a fast writer. For some, PA is just a skip in the record, a tiny little scratch that ruins one song, but doesn't mar the rest of the album. But for others (and these are the ones that I feel sorriest for) the scratch is across the only thing they have---a single, solitary song that is harmed for the better part of a decade. That's the part that hurts.

Tarra74, you'll get a lot of good advice over on the Romance forum. We have several authors with H/S there (Harlequin/Silhouette). Good luck! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion!

[James D. Macdonald]

For whatever it is worth, there is a supposedly hard-headed book of advice to aspiring writers titled Some Writers Deserve to Starve (a Writer's Digest Book Club selection, by the way!) that actually recommends PA as an option for aspiring writers.

That book includes not one but two chapters on (how can I put this delicately?) sleeping your way to the top.

Some writers I know claim that the author practices what she preaches. That might explain how her book got published. But notice that it came out from Writer's Digest Books (if you read WD these days, you'll notice that it's all vanity, all the time).

To say that her book came in for some derision among real writers would be ... unkind but accurate.

PublishAmerica isn't any sort of stepping stone to legitimate publication. Don't be fooled.

[Cathy C]

PublishAmerica isn't any sort of stepping stone to legitimate publication. Don't be fooled.


The publishing industry doesn't consider PA to be anything. Let me repeat that---PA isn't even on the radar screen of most publishers. Tell an editor with one of the big names that your first book was published with PA, and they'll say, "Who?" If it even clicks at all, it'll probably be because of the Atlanta Nights issue, because it rated an article in Publisher's Weekly. Publishers know the names of their contemporaries. They know the names of SOME of the small presses. They've never heard of PA, except for when they learn your manuscript has a previous ISBN from searching prior to offering you a contract. Then it becomes an issue. Not the good sort.

That should tell you enough to know it's not a stepping stone. If it was a rock on the way to the shore of a river, your feet would still be wet.

[NancyMehl]

One thing I'd like to mention:

I wandered over to the PAMB last night out of boredom. There is a thread that contains excerpts of some PA authors' books. While some of them were questionable, I saw some real talent displayed there. One entry, in particular, blew me away. We have all seen a few examples of writing from PA that were downright awful. BUT I think we've also seen some writing that was topnotch.

The point isn't that there are no talented PA authors - the point is that it takes more than good writing. It takes education about the "craft" of writing. Formatting, dialogue, plot development, character development, etc.. That's what you will never get with PA! An author needs raw talent - then they go to school - whether it's online, in writers' groups, or in an organized writing class. You have to learn the ropes - otherwise you'll always be stuck with a publisher like PA.

PA authors who are reading this thread - if you'll listen to what is being offered to you, you have a chance at success! Forget your PA book for now and start learning! There is a lot of help here and on other sites. There are lots of great books out there. Although I recommend Sol Stein - (I think he's the best there is!) there are many, many choices. Stop now - take a break - and learn. A year or two of learning can save you years and years of rejection.

Remember - no one here is saying you don't have talent - we are saying that natural aptitude isn't enough. If you want to see your dreams come true, drop your defensive attitude and accept the help available to you.

Nancy

[Ken Schneider]

You have to learn the ropes - otherwise you'll always be stuck with a publisher like PA.

Stop now - take a break - and learn. A year or two of learning can save you years and years of rejection.

If you want to see your dreams come true, drop your defensive attitude and accept the help available to you.

Nancy

Amen.

[Lisa Y]

forget your PA books ever existed - consider them part of a delusional period in your life

Ouch. This is (hangs head in shame) my biggest problem. My PA book is the first in what I had hoped was a series. I can't forget it existed. Pathetic, I know. Write a better book, and another. But this is my world, the only one I have. :eek: :e2paperba

[MacAllister]

Keep the world. It belongs to you. Just write a better first book for your series. That's what I'd do, if I'd lost a book to PA.

[SC Harrison]

What book are you referring to? No PA book is mentioned in the article, and no PA book shows up on Amazon for this guy.

My bad. This guy (Pies) had a 120 page book of short stories printed by PA which sells for $19.95. Current sales rank of 1,226,000 or so. I really want to see the look on his face at royalty check time.

[Sheryl Nantus]

Ouch. This is (hangs head in shame) my biggest problem. My PA book is the first in what I had hoped was a series. I can't forget it existed. Pathetic, I know. Write a better book, and another. But this is my world, the only one I have. :eek: :e2paperba

hey, it sucks.

bigtime.

it's like being kicked in the stomach, the head and the private parts at the same time when you realise that you've given something precious to PA; something that they don't deserve and that you've really put your heart and soul into.

it totally sucks.

however, like Big Mac says - it's YOUR world and yours alone. PA didn't get that out of you when you signed your contract; it's still your creation and your masterpiece.

just go visit it again and dig up another story... and maybe you'll be surprised at how much *better* the visit is when it's not tainted with the foul smell of PA all over it.

really.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

[Jean Marie]

Keep the world. It belongs to you. Just write a better first book for your series. That's what I'd do, if I'd lost a book to PA.
Lisa, even though Mac's got a fossilized gopher for an avatar http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif she speaks the truth. And gives the best advice. Jim will tell you the exact same thing. And so will many others on this board.

There are a number of PA authors who post here, past and present who have moved on. PA is not a death knell. You're still a writer. They only win if you cease to write. Regardless of what happens w/ your present book, do not ever allow that to occur.

I forgot to mention-duh! I'm an exPA author-yeah, I got my rights back http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif
In other words, Lisa, I know exactly how you feel. But, do not hang your head in shame-you didn't do anything wrong!! Okay? Please believe all of us. PA is made lies, cheats and steals from their authors. They're scammers.

[Ken Schneider]

I had one pile of slush with PA. I don't want my rights back.

I want to write a better book that and vindicate myself by writing a book of professional quailty.

It is my hope that my PA book carried a worm with it that is slowly infecting the guts of the dragon who ate it.
Takes up memory.
Never makes another dime.
The file get deleted and or lost and they write to me for the replacement copy.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Ouch. This is (hangs head in shame) my biggest problem. My PA book is the first in what I had hoped was a series. I can't forget it existed. Pathetic, I know. Write a better book, and another. But this is my world, the only one I have. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/e2paperbag.gif


Like others have said, Lisa, your world is yours, not PA's. The book you have with PA is theirs, but they do not own your world. I believe it was Uncle Jim who said (directed to me, as I recall) that I can write as many derivative works to Wyverinia Chronicles as I wish, and I won't owe PA a thing for those books because they only own the rights to publish the one book.

I've been debating for some time, in fact, writing a second book in the intended WC series, thanks to Uncle Jim's advice.

So your world isn't lost. The one book may be, but your world is yours, and PA cannot take that away from you.

[James D. Macdonald]

Looks like there's another spate of Guestbook Sliming going on:

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10468

For you PA authors with guestbooks -- turn on the feature that shows the IP numbers. Let us know if the Slimer strikes your guestbook. If an IP number matches a poster here ... that poster will be gone from here.

If you're here because you took White Raven's advice to join other writers' boards, under your own name or a screen name, welcome! This is a large board. Only a few threads deal with PublishAmerica. This thread can help you understand what happened to you and your book. The rest can help you get genuinely published.

[huntwriter]

Like others have said, Lisa, your world is yours, not PA's. The book you have with PA is theirs, but they do not own your world. I believe it was Uncle Jim who said (directed to me, as I recall) that I can write as many derivative works to Wyverinia Chronicles as I wish, and I won't owe PA a thing for those books because they only own the rights to publish the one book.

I've been debating for some time, in fact, writing a second book in the intended WC series, thanks to Uncle Jim's advice.

So your world isn't lost. The one book may be, but your world is yours, and PA cannot take that away from you.

I don't know the first things about writing a book. But I think you made a very valued point here Sean. One of my writing mentors told me quit early on; "Look for the story within the story". I have been doing this ever since with my articles and more often than not from one article I can make three or more new articles.

My assumption is that this is possible with books too, perhaps even more so because of the large content. So, no, the world is not lost it just has changed a tiny bit.

[Canada James]

Egem, have you got a book coming out from PublishAmerica?

Welcome to my ignore function, Hapi.

Canada James

[Nexusman]

Welcome to my ignore function, Hapi.

Canada James

These posts aren't necessary. Just ignore whoever it is you're ignoring; I fail to see the purpose of letting everyone know you're doing so.


Back on topic...

Incidentally, PA's updated its weekly books page: http://www.publishamerica.com/weeklybooks.htm That's 121 new books cranked out. This week. Using that as a sample of the 20% of manuscripts PA accepts, that means... that PA goes through 605 books a week. I doubt anyone is that proliferatic of a reader.

-Nick

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Bizarre. Hapi's one of the most helpful posters I know of on this forum.

There are several reasons why someone might promote PA:

* Being new enough to the industry and ignorant enough not to realize that PA's two free books and $1 advance are offset by some highly irregular and dishonest business practices.

* Having a book with PA and viewing every criticism of PA as an attack on one's own book's chances.

* Being employed by or being in ownership of PA.

The first two can both, possibly, be arguments from ignorance. One might truly not understand why they shouldn't sign with PA; one might also truly believe their book has a chance with PA and that chance is threatened by anti-PA rhetoric. The last position, however, precludes ignorance.

The second and third can both, possibly, be arguments from interested dishonesty--lying in order to protect one's PA-related interests (real or imagined). The first cannot; an ignorant newbie not yet signed with PA has no stake in PA's success yet.

When someones pro-PA posts are so inconsistent as to support no coherent story, show no interest in actually learning from the answers given to the questions asked, and display evidence of outright willful lies, we have to assume that the poster is in either the second or third position: has a book with PA and thinks pro-PA lies serve his/her interests, or, being employed by or in ownership of PA, actually does have something to gain from promoting PA with lies.

At this point, Hapi's question, "Do you have a book coming out with PA?" is a reasonable one.

(And the accusatory non sequitors offered instead of a straight answer suggest that the actual answer is Yes.)


DISCLAIMER: I may well have missed a possible case; these three are all that occur to me at the moment.

[triceretops]

Argh! I'm not certain how to proceed. I contacted the buyer at Barnes and Noble in Eugene, Oregon - particularly because my book's story takes place in Eugene, Oregon - and was told they are hesitant to host a signing or order in books by a POD publisher, that they have trouble with returns via Ingram, that while they will order in a copy to look at, they say it may "not be worth my time" to have a signing ... Needless to say, I am frustrated.

The next poster advised that the person at B & N had no vision. And that if one book was purchased anyway, then the signing should go ahead for the single book.

The word "vision" was mentioned in the latter post, and it goes to show what kind of information is not available to PA authors on their own boards. It is highly unlikely that a $1.00 royalty for the sale of that one book would pay for the gas and trouble to get to the book store. They are also not aware of B & N's policy of POD or PA books.

Once again, that information is available at AW for a lot less than a dollar, and it's just a click away. AW is a huge writing university, and at the very least, the NEPAT instructs all who will read and absorb, how the real publishing industry works, buys, distributes and evaluates published works.

Tri

[triceretops]

whoops--double post.

[xhouseboy]

The next poster advised that the person at B & N had no vision. And that if one book was purchased anyway, then the signing should go ahead for the single book.

Tri

She also included this little gem to validate her reasoning for staging a 'book' signing - book in the singular.

When other people come up, tell them that you have sold all the books that B & N ordered, but they will order more and you will come and sign them.

If I was a potential buyer, I'd naturally be inclined to pose the question: 'Good for you. So how many did you actually sign and sell?'

Erm... One. But if you come back next week, I'll try and arrange another signing for you.

Y'know, seriously, I'd rather be dodging traffic blindfolded on a busy motorway than sitting in a bookstore at a table with one book for my book signing gig. It would be less stressful.

[allenparker]

Tarra74, can I give you a better point of view?

I have two books with PA, two books in what was originally planned to be a three-book series. Never did I believe that I could sell the third book to another publisher. But I did.

My third book will be published by Author's Ink Books, a small publisher in Mi.

Three things can be gleaned from this situation. First, Pa is not the end to your creative writing ability. Write tighter with stronger characters so that your voice and story can be heard clearly.

Second, publishers will give your book the same review as everyone else, so long as you respect the rules.

Third, mentioning your PA book is not necessarily a road block. I had to mention the other books; this was a continuation of them. It was an extension of the previous work.

The biggest thing is that you have to write a book someone else wants. If you don't do this, you do not have a chance.

I have learned much by my PA experience. Some of the experience and learning process was good and useful, although painful. Other experiences were not as productive. The best piece of advice I can offer is to use everything you see and everything you feel to better your writing. Then write everyday.

[Sheryl Nantus]

big hint right there with the single-book signing, folks... PA does NOT want to deal with bookstores!!!

they want YOU, the author, to purchase books and then try to sell them on consignment or harass the bookstore into putting them on the shelves - there's line after line on the PAMB that details how to do this over and over again.

Legitimate publishers do NOT send out emails to their authors offering "deals" on purchasing their own books. And, for those PA authors keeping track, those "deals" truly aren't. They're worse than any other "deal" on the market - the PA version makes it mandatory for you to buy dozens of your own book in order to get a decent discount. Newsflash - REAL publishers will give you, the author, a 40% (at least) discount on even ONE book you purchase for your own use. NOT if you buy twenty or thirty or a hundred. It doesn't work that way in the real publishing world.

PA has stated repeatedly that their audience isn't the bookbuying public - it's their authors.

and that's not how publishing works.

[Kevin Yarbrough]

Egem, bashing your publisher will not make you an outcast. I can tell you of one well known author who had bashed publishers, agents, reviewers, etc. so much that people have said that if they ever see him they will kick his a$$. Bentley Little. He is still writing books and getting them published even though many in the industry hate his guts.

PA lets you believe that if you bash a publisher that no one else will take you, that you will be black balled. This is just more false info from the Prophets of Prevarication.

[SC Harrison]

I have learned much by my PA experience. Some of the experience and learning process was good and useful, although painful. Other experiences were not as productive. The best piece of advice I can offer is to use everything you see and everything you feel to better your writing. Then write everyday.

Allen, you hit the nail on the head. The PA experience actually hinders a writer from improving his/her craft, because you are forced to spend an inordinate amount of time promoting your book. This time should be spent writing and polishing new projects, because that's the only way to improve.

The (relatively) new PA mindset is to hurry up with the second (and possibly third) books, so people won't think you're a one-trick pony. This is backwards, because it takes away from the quality of the book itself.

edited to add: There is a certain fatalistic mentality on the PAMB about writing skills and/or aptitude that is propagated by the heavy concentration of marketing-related threads, and the assumption that all (PA) books are "just as good if not better" than those released by mainstream publishing. There is also a hesitancy (by most) to embrace the idea of self-improvement, which leads me to believe that many of these folks honestly don't think they can improve their writing, even if they tried.

In my upcoming newspaper article I explored this misconception, and I hope that part makes it to print. In reality, a beginning writer can see a vast improvement in their writing in a relatively short period of time, if they will only apply themselves. Just the sheer practice of writing will eradicate many of the issues that plague new writers, but until they get a taste of this, they assume it will take a monumental effort to make a slight improvement. Because of this, many don't take the time they should, and their work suffers for it.

This, more than anything else, will ensure that PA (and other vanities) will continue to have the reputation of poorly written books.

[Maddog]

This thread is *cough* enlightening.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10443

[DeePower]

If you want to find out whether having a book "published" by PA hurts or helps you as a writer; or if expressing your views about Publish America on AW will cause editors not to consider your work, you can ask several editors (including one at Harlequin.)

You can do this without revealing your identity if you want to.

My website is hosting a free onlne seminar: Query Letters From Good to Great. Editors from several publishing houses will be available to answer questions from writers.

For more information e-mail me privately
author at BrianHillAndDeePower dot com.

Dee

[Sparhawk]

<<Jim: http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Some writing-clique members try their best to tell perfectly happy PA authors that they’re actually unhappy and don’t know it. The pervasive attitude seems to be, I’m unhappy with my lack of success; therefore, I want you to be unhappy too.

Because of the negativity being spawned throughout the writing community, many exceptional writers, whom should have a book published by now with Publish America, have become psychologically biased against PA, and now must spend the rest of what remains of their writing lives counting rejection slips, and will never experience the joy of authorship--a sad commentary.

PA authors can participate in other writing boards under their current name or another board name, and I hope they will, and do their part to convey the PA message that there is hope for all writers, and hopefully raise the sagging morale of so many writers out there in cyberspace now struggling for recognition and validation.

Name removed by mehttp://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_surprised.gif >>


Could he be referring to US???

Look my fellow PAvidians. If never being in a bookstore, never being allowed to be affiliated with any real writers groups and having your book unedited and priced into the stratosphere is your idea of being published; then enjoy the PA experience. Live in your delusionary state of denial and be all warm and comfy. You will NEVER improve as a writer and you will never master the difficult yet rewarding craft of telling a GOOD story.

I am proof that there is life after PA, All it took was hard work and HELP FROM THE WONDERFUL PEOPLE HERE !! Do I consider myself a "Professional Author"? LMAO NO! I am still in the farm leagues with plenty more to learn, but I'll learn it here from all the educational forums and from legitimately published talent.

All you'll find in Pavidian fields are printed authors giving advice about vanity radio, making a better bookmark et al. Why not learn from professional and published authors? Why stay in the tiny pond of PA while there exists a whole vast literary ocean of knowledge and opportunity. My dear PAvidians, the only people who you hurt are yourselves.

-Nuff said

Sparhawk

[Sheryl Nantus]

good one, Spar.

and, to tag onto the end of that post - if it's a choice between being published/printed by PA and NOT EVER being printed/published...

you'd be better off scribbling your tome on a bathroom stall door - at least more people will get a chance to see it and read it than ever will under a PA label.

;)

[Christine N.]

I post this tidbit ONLY so that my experience can be contrasted to those "Bookstore Managers won't give me a signing" posts on the PAMB.

Today I got an e-mail from the publicist for LBF Books. A heck of a nice lady (Canadian, too!) and a hard worker. Even though Borders has declined to place an inital order for my book, she's gotten a signing for me at Waldenbooks near me. I had nothing to do with it, she set the date. ( For the record, Borders has put the book in their database, and if they see a demand, they will order for bookshelf placement - more about at a later date).

She's contacted Baker and Taylor, they're ordering the books from the publisher, and has guaranteed the books to be at the store before the signing. I gotta show up and look nice - that's it.

And... my workaholic publicist is also lighting a fire under B&N's collective butts so I can have some dates there as well.

Compare with what you hear on the PAMB, and take from it what you will.

(Oh, and my MOMS club will be reading my book for an upcoming Book Club selection. They will purchase their books, and not from me. Well, I do have some here, but I didn't pay for them. Not one thin dime. I'm not in sales. I write, and I do help promote, but as you can see, it's my sole responsibility by any stretch.)

[Aconite]

Some writing-clique members try their best to tell perfectly happy PA authors that they’re actually unhappy and don’t know it. The pervasive attitude seems to be, I’m unhappy with my lack of success; therefore, I want you to be unhappy too.
First, the "lack of success" thing. See, there's this doodad called "Google." You can use it to look things up. Like books published with real, legitimate publishers by the people you're calling unsuccessful.

Now, onto the happiness thing. If you knew nothing about cars, and you thought cars cost $50,000, and you got one for $10,000, you'd be really happy, too--right up until someone told you, "Uh, that's not a car. That's a bicycle, and that kind usually sells for under $100."

[Sheryl Nantus]

from the PAMB before it gets deleted:

Post subject: Waldenbooks in middle georgia refuses to stock PA books

So my mom heads down to the local Waldenbooks to ask them to order 3 copies of my book... they look it up by ISBN, then inform her that they don't order PA books. She tells them she isn't asking them to stock it on the shelves, she's willing to pre-pay if they'll just order them for her (she doesn't trust internet ordering, so didn't want to do that). They said no, that it's their policy not to order from PA. http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_sad.gif
*************

that's what you're dealing with, folks - yes, the big bookstores are NOT going to stock PA books because they KNOW they're not worth the effort. With the overpricing, the lack of editing and the "return" policy in effect it's not worth the time it would take to punch the numbers in on the computer nor to pay the salesperson to put them on the shelves.

Waldenbooks isn't evil - they're in the business of SELLING BOOKS TO THE PUBLIC.

PA is in the business of SELLING BOOKS TO THE AUTHOR.

of course, now the next post will inevitably be a suggestion that the author buy his/her own books and start consigning them...

:Headbang:

[book_maven]

The Book Standard has an article today that holds some relevance for PA's authors who claim pricing doesn't much matter. It's a short piece, but quite interesting.

Link: http://www.thebookstandard.com/bookstandard/news/publisher/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001920087

Of particular interest, these stats on fiction:

Average Length:
Science Fiction – 329 pages
Romance – 324 pages
Mystery and Detective – 292 pages
Western – 261 pages

Average Suggested Retail Price:
Science Fiction – $7.35
Mystery and Detective – $6.94
Romance – $5.57

[akaa1a]

You know, I may not be the brightest bulb on the string, but something occurred to me that new PA authors and potential PA authors may not see.

PA's big hook is welcoming you into the PA family. They ooz and schmooz all over you at first, taking you under their wing, right? And you believe it because some big publishing guru out there has made you feel like your next piece of mail will be to Clopper's Christmas party.

But that isn't true is it? And it stings a bit when you come to realize that it never was and never will be. You are nothing but a means to an end for PA. They suck the very life out of you and expel toxic wastes into your soul.

Now, look at a large publishing house. Just like Kevin said, they might hate the very ground you walk on, but if your product is saleable, you're in. There is no gray area.
They either like your writing or they don't. They negotiate what they will and what they won't. They're not your family, they're not your priest and they're not your dear old granny...they are a business that does business selling books to a fickle public.

There's nothing that says you won't be a success with them, but it isn't easy. It shouldn't be. And that is where PA grabs you by the short hairs, strokes your ego, and plays on every insecurity you and I may have.
Does anyone wonder why they don't have lawyers as authors. I don't know of one, do you? It's because they have a fear-based business plan that a lawyer would pick apart like a crab feast at Louie's Lobster Shack.

"Don't say anything bad or you'll be out of the fold."
"Don't take that tone with us."
"Don't post that or we will take your posting rights away."

I'm just like all of you. I got burnt big time emotionally...and financially, due my business plan that was based on the idea that my book was different and my goals of doing charitable things would overcome any obstacle.

I was wrong, I learned, and I paid PA enough to send 3 of their mucky-mucks on a nice 7 day cruise to Mexico.

Cherish YOUR family, speak YOUR mind, exercise YOUR right to speak freely. Don't give that all away on a dose of warm and fuzzies.
Thankfully, I have found a new publisher for a brand new book. I'm excited again. And I have come to realize that in the learning we can achieve.

Anyone have an aspirin?

[xhouseboy]

Hello am also a british author.

I live in *****, also home to well known horror writer ********. Could you imagine my suprise when I had my first attempt at sending off a novel accepted the first time I sent it off, am grateful to publish america for giving me a chance.




Wonder if she'll be so grateful some years down the line when she decides to submit to a genuine publisher. All PA has done is stunt (hopefully temporarily) her development. I'm accepted - I must be the finished article. What's all the fuss about rejections I keep hearing about - they must just be duff writers. This is a lark. Churn it out, submit, accepted, published.

[Sootie]

Shannon said: Thankfully, I have found a new publisher for a brand new book. I'm excited again. And I have come to realize that in the learning we can achieve.
Congratulations Shannon. Well done! It just goes to prove that there is life after PA.

Sootie. ;)

[SeanDSchaffer]

<<Jim: http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Some writing-clique members try their best to tell perfectly happy PA authors that they’re actually unhappy and don’t know it. The pervasive attitude seems to be, I’m unhappy with my lack of success; therefore, I want you to be unhappy too.

Because of the negativity being spawned throughout the writing community, many exceptional writers, whom should have a book published by now with Publish America, have become psychologically biased against PA, and now must spend the rest of what remains of their writing lives counting rejection slips, and will never experience the joy of authorship--a sad commentary.

PA authors can participate in other writing boards under their current name or another board name, and I hope they will, and do their part to convey the PA message that there is hope for all writers, and hopefully raise the sagging morale of so many writers out there in cyberspace now struggling for recognition and validation.

Name removed by mehttp://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif http://bb.publishamerica.com/images/smiles/icon_surprised.gif >>

....Snipped.


I seem to remember a dude named SDSchaffer2 who used to speak out that exact same sentiment when he was a regular on the PAMB. He is now a regular at the AbsoluteWrite Water Cooler, and goes by the handle that is in the top left-hand corner of this post.

A lot can change in just a few weeks. Like the first few weeks I was a member here. Just after having received my first PA royalty check.

I've changed a lot since those days, and I can say with confidence that a lot of PA'ers are going to be changing quite a bit over the next few weeks.

Fellow PA'ers, I hope you'll be willing to come over here sometime and see what we really have to say, for yourselves. I think you'll find we care about all writers, regardless of their publisher/printer. What matters here is improving our craft and helping other writers to improve theirs, as well.


Try to remember that the Neverending PublishAmerica Thread is only one thread in a very big forum.

[SC Harrison]

I seem to remember a dude named SDSchaffer2 who used to speak out that exact same sentiment when he was a regular on the PAMB.

Dude, I hear what you're saying. Some of the things I said over there were, um...let's just call them "less than wise", and leave it at that. I'm still prone to say some stupid stuff here, but the AW folks don't put up with too much bs, so I have to actually think before I type. It's all very tiring.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Dude, I hear what you're saying. Some of the things I said over there were, um...let's just call them "less than wise", and leave it at that. I'm still prone to say some stupid stuff here, but the AW folks don't put up with too much bs, so I have to actually think before I type. It's all very tiring.


Tiring, but well worth the effort. Especially when it comes to improving our Craft.

I know I put my foot in my mouth more often than is healthy here....I'm glad for people who are willing to tell me, "Sean, I think you did wrong." People like that make up some of my best friends.

[Gabriele]

This thread is *cough* enlightening.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10443

Ouch, that medicine is to be taken in small doses. ;)

[DaveKuzminski]

I know I put my foot in my mouth more often than is healthy here....

Don't worry, they let me put my foot in my mouth often. ;)

[SeanDSchaffer]

Don't worry, they let me put my foot in my mouth often. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif


Yeah, I think we all do to some extent. That's what's nice about many of the boards I belong to: they're almost always willing to forgive the kind of stuff that comes out of just about everyone's mouth at one time or another.


Back to topic: I'm glad that this site was here when I got my reality check in the mail. This was, believe it or not, the only site I visited for the longest time to learn about writing. It's not the only site I go to now, but when I first started out fresh from my first PA royalty check, AW was pretty much it for me. It'll be a year this March that I will have been a member here.

I said all that to say this:

It's good we're warning people away from PA before they sign a contract with them or even before they send a manuscript to them. But I hope that many of us will be willing to have continued patience for PA authors who come to this site. Many of them will be like Steve or myself, who have beforehand said things that were not good about either AW or the publishing industry in general. And in my own case, the reason I said those things was simple ignorance of the industry. I simply did not know what I thought I knew. I know many people can be irritating and some downright rude, but I'm thinking that, since the majority of PA'ers I knew when I was a regular over there, knew first about AW before any other place, I can see a lot of them turning to AW for either comfort or a place to vent or for help to make their writing better.

Many of them, like myself, will most likely be ignorant of the business and will be asking questions that have been answered again and again and again and again and....well, I think you all get the picture.

Answering those questions every half-year becomes tiring, I know. But IMO, it's well worth the bother, because many of the people who ask those questions will be wanting straight answers directly from us. And many of those writers will, over the course of however long, turn out to be outstanding writers with respected careers, in the long run.

[DaveKuzminski]

Just think about this, too. Every time that someone mentions AW or WB or P&E at PA's forum, it means they have to ban another set of writers that much sooner because they've been exposed to the most contagious matter in the universe--the truth. :)

[mdin]

Almost every single time I look at the PA board (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10646), I end up wanting to bang my head against a wall. I don't know why I do it. Hopefully someone who knows what they're talking about will post soon.

[endless rewrite]

Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:23 am Post subject: http://bb.publishamerica.com/templates/subSilver/images/lang_english/icon_quote.gif (http://bb.publishamerica.com/posting.php?mode=quote&p=125488) Advice on promotion:



As Pa is always interested in supporting its authors, in addition to the mail out promotion they conduct, it is my understanding that PA will also make an initial contact with your local newspaper office in order to spur your own promotional campaign. What a great ice breaker for you when you can go behind PA's contact and introduce yourself and refer to the release suppled by PA to help get your foot in the door. If nothing else, you can always begin with: What did you think of my Publisher's press release for my book da dada da da? A simple yes or no question such as: Did you receive it? or Would you like a press release? often precludes any real dialogue and allows for an easy out for an editor or producer, if you're talking to a radio or TV station. Nobody is ever going to say "I hated it, get out!" So regardless of their response you have a chance to step up and close the deal for an interview. Just as with getting our books published, PA is merely providing the opportunity for a successful career as a writer. Did I say merely? Sorry, that's a pretty big gift if you ask me! We have to find a way to kick that damned door to opportunity open.
I've actually approached a number of venues with that very question. How did you like m publisher's review? and have booked several events already and my book isn't even out of the cover design stage nor has a release even been sent out to anyone. I just use it as a way to start the conversation. Usually the person is so apologetic for apparently ignoring or overlooking my review they take the time to really talk to me. Hey guilt works! I've even been so gracious at forgiving a secretary who "must have mislaid it" that she actually wrote me down on her boss's schedule for that very day when ordinarily I might have waited weeks for an appointment.
Best of luck! Figure what works for you then share with others. everytime a PA author succeeds we all succeed. By helping another they can turn around and give you a hand.
_________________

What a delightful set of tactics/advice to give out to new authors, guilt, emotional manipulation, blatant lies as well as the kicking down the door strategy. If I was a cynic I would think this came direct from the horse's arse, sorry, mouth, rather than an author.

Follow the above and you'll be certain of a restraining order rather than a successful career as a writer.

[SeanDSchaffer]

Almost every single time I look at the PA board (http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10646), I end up wanting to bang my head against a wall. I don't know why I do it. Hopefully someone who knows what they're talking about will post soon.


Let me save you the trouble, Navigator....

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/EmoteHeadbang.gif

This is why I don't visit the PAMB anymore. Too many people making guesses and giving them out as factual answers has gotten old over time.

Now imagine being a regular there and having the guts to say, "No, Lightning Source is not a Publisher." I've seen plenty a flame war start over there over a simple question like the OP posed.

[AnnaWhite]

I received an email today from an author who has recently signed with PublishAmerica, and was asking if there's any way to get out of the contract, or have the same work published with a different company.

Here is my answer (edited). It may be useful also for any forum lurkers, since these questions are the first ones that PA authors ask, once the honeymoon is over.


Hello XXXX,

My heart goes out to you, since I felt very much the same way a year ago. Letting my book 'die' was very hard. It's only a temporary death, though, since I'm planning to pick it up again when the contract expires, give it a good brush down, and start again with a new title and a pen-name. In the meantime, I'm writing short stories and planning to write another novel.

A few people have managed to get their work 'back' from PA. I think you have a better chance if you live in the USA, and can use arbitration (which you can't do with the PublishBritannica contracts).

Last December, an author called Phil Dolan took PA to arbitration and won hands down even without a lawyer (see http://www.freewebs.com/pozkin/legalwatch.htm). According to a forum post he wrote shortly after the event, the Award he received was higher than expected, but was subject to confidentiality. He says: "I was going to post it on the Internet so PA authors could see exactly how the Award reads. I believed it would provide incentive for some authors to file for arbitration. I thought when they saw what I received, many would go after PA. I did not see any way that PA could have avoided NOT breaching every author’s contract. I can’t post, show or quote the Award."

Timothy Stelly says he is organising a class action case against PublishAmerica - you can read his story in http://www.wizardessbooks.com/html/PA_stories.htm under 'Timothy'.

Other authors are, allegedly, working behind the scenes, but I don't have the details.

A few authors had their rights reverted on what appears to be a random basis - for example, Jean Marie Wiesen and Linda Oness.

The reason not to re-publish your book with another publisher while it's contracted to PA is because the other publisher would be very unhappy if he/she found out, and it would give you a black mark in the publishing world. You can, of course, publish other works that are not under a PA contract.

The only way to have your books published by a different company, while they are with PA, is to sign the nefarious non-exclusivity amendment to your contract. The amendment is written in such a way that no other genuine publisher would ever take your book on board. It only leaves an author free to go with another vanity publisher with a lower cover price, such as Lulu. What's more, the non-exclusivity amendment entails also a gag clause, and renews your contract for seven years from the signing of the amendment.

* The non-exclusivity clause means that PA doesn't mind if another publisher produces your book; PA still, however, has the right to produce it too. According to the amendment, a commercial publisher could gain exclusive rights after a great deal of rigmarole; it would require a signed contract to show to PA, then you would have to wait at least nine months, plus an indefinite amount of time for PA to do various things that are not subject to deadline. Most commercial publishers are only interested in exclusive rights, straight away. This leaves the author realistically restricted to vanity and self-publishing.

* The gag clause or confidentiality clause on the non-exclusivity amendment prevents an author from showing said amendment to other publishers; this makes it impossible for the author to prove that s/he has the publishing rights back from PA and can legally offer them to another publisher. The gag clause also involves a promise not to say anything disparaging about PA, and ensure that no relative or friend does (which is pretty ridiculous: how can anybody be accountable for what his/her friends and relatives say).

The advice normally given to PA authors is to keep on writing (that's the most important thing, whatever you do), and either:
a) Take legal action, or:
b) Wait the seven years, and try publishing something through a real publisher in the meantime.

There are success stories, of writers who were published commercially after their PA fiasco, for example Diana Hignutt, Dee Power, John Laurence Robinson, and Canada James, to name a few (see http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=474332&postcount=30082).

I hope this helps a little. I know the pain, though, and the inevitable grief. Just remember, your work hasn't died. You can either get it back through arbitration, or else it will be yours again at the end of the seven-year contract, and in the meantime you can keep writing.

All the best,

[Lady of Prose]

Partial quote
"It's so big it takes nearly a thousand pages and approximately 4oo,ooo words in two volumes to relate. Has anyone else had an experience like this and how did you deal with it?"


Read the whole comment here.

http://bb.publishamerica.com/viewtopic.php?t=10647

Boggles the mind--so sad. I wonder what the price is on this set?

[ResearchGuy]

...I wonder what the price is on this set?
Has to be wildly uncompetitive among readers. Diana Gabaldon's Highlander series--massive books of 900-1,000 pages each, sell for about $18 each in trade paperback, much less in mass market paperback, and (for the sixth and latest in the series) $28 in hardback. It is not as though readers have to go to the effort of tracking down special-order books by unknown authors at high prices in order to find good reading.

Speaking of good reading ... after browsing through the "page from your book" thread at the PAMB, I have to wonder how much effort some of those folks--and those who praise those excerpts as masterful writing--put into reading good books. Do they really have no exposure to writing of high quality? Effective dialogue? Readable narrative?

--Ken

[James D. Macdonald]

What did you think of my Publisher's press release for my book da dada da da?

Do you remember the PA Press Release Game?

Here's the standard PA Press Release:

PublishAmerica is proud to announce that it has acquired the rights to publish [title], by [location]'s newly discovered author, [firstname] [lastname]. [Editorial/Executive] Director Miranda Prather expressed confidence today that [honorific] [lastname]'s second book will quickly resonate with an audience.

"We were already familiar with [honorific][lastname]'s work from [gendered pronoun] first book, [previousbooktitle]. [title] is a well written and crafted work of contemporary [genre] that fits our specialty like a glove. PublishAmerica primarily publishes works by, for or about people who face a challenge in life and who overcome it by turning stumbling blocks into stepping stones. We believe that [honorific][lastname] is a promising an accomplished talent in this field."

Most of PublishAmerica’s books are written by new and previously undiscovered talent, such as [local area]’s newly two-time discovered author. A traditional publishing company, PublishAmerica pays advances and royalties while offering a distinct alternative to authors who would most likely be overlooked by larger, more commercial publishers simply due to their lack of experience in the industry.

More details about book and author will soon appear at www.publishamerica.com When released, the book will be available through all local bookstores as a trade paperback.

For more information, please contact Miranda Prather at pratherm@publishamerica.com. You may also contact [firstname lastname] at [author e-mail].

This press release is apparently ginned up with a mail-merge program. Fill in the blanks, out it comes. Note that it's mostly an ad for PA (and sent when the author signs the contract, not when the book is about to come out). It doesn't give anyone any particular reason to read the book, far less to seek it out and pay higher than normal prices for it.

So ... let's play the game!

PublishAmerica is proud to announce that it has acquired the rights to publish The Hobbit, by Oxford's newly discovered author, John R. Tolkien. Editorial Director Miranda Prather expressed confidence today that Mr. Tolkien's book will quickly resonate with an audience.

"The Hobbit is a well written and crafted work of contemporary fiction that fits our specialty like a glove. PublishAmerica primarily publishes works by, for or about people who face a challenge in life and who overcome it by turning stumbling blocks into stepping stones. We believe that Mr. Tolkien is a promising talent in this field."

Most of PublishAmerica’s books are written by new and previously undiscovered talent, such as Oxford’s newly discovered author. A traditional publishing company, PublishAmerica pays advances and royalties while offering a distinct alternative to authors who would most likely be overlooked by larger, more commercial publishers simply due to their lack of experience in the industry.

More details about book and author will soon appear at www.publishamerica.com When released, the book will be available through all local bookstores as a trade paperback.

For more information, please contact Miranda Prather at pratherm@publishamerica.com. You may also contact John Tolkien at JRRT@oxford.uk.edu.

[LloydBrown]

"In a hole in the ground, there lived a publisher."

[NancyMehl]

Speaking of good reading ... after browsing through the "page from your book" thread at the PAMB, I have to wonder how much effort some of those folks--and those who praise those excerpts as masterful writing--put into reading good books. Do they really have no exposure to writing of high quality? Effective dialogue? Readable narrative?

--Ken

I agree for the most part. However, I do see some flashes of real talent. What is lacking is effective structure and technique.

I just didn't want it to seem as if we were dismissing these writers completely. That would be unfair. One writer really stood out to me as someone who could do much better than PA.

Of course, the truth is, anyone can do better! PA shouldn't be a choice for anyone.

Nancy

[Aconite]

This may be considered author-bashing, but most of the PA folks I've observed have few of the skills necessary to write well, and many do not read as much as the average aspiring writer. That's because PA publishes its slush pile. The majority of the manuscripts in any commercial publisher's slush pile are unpublishable. (See Slushkiller (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html).) It's not that PA's authors are worse overall than any other randomly selected group of writers. It's just that being "published" by PA creates the expectation that the author knows at least the basics of writing, which often isn't the case, whereas unpublished slush creates no such expectation. The books look worse by comparison.

[Nexusman]

That's because PA publishes its slush pile. The majority of the manuscripts in any commercial publisher's slush pile are unpublishable. (See Slushkiller (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html).) It's not that PA's authors are worse overall than any other randomly selected group of writers. It's just that being "published" by PA creates the expectation that the author knows at least the basics of writing, which often isn't the case, whereas unpublished slush creates no such expectation. The books look worse by comparison.

Also, one of the other "mistakes" some PA authors probably make is the assumption that their first draft is the finished project. PA has probably published many manuscripts that are just the author's first run-through of the story and, had the story been given some time to mature, could have grown into something actually workable.

-Nick

[Sheryl Nantus]

what's even a worse crime, IMO, is that writers are encouraged to NOT accept any editing nor advice on how to improve their craft.

it only takes a quick reading of a sample chapter on a website to see that while the author may have a good idea and a general ability to put words together that an editor is desperately needed.

PA encourages the attitude that Your Words Are Gold and no one should ever suggest that you change them. And that handicaps good writers with potential.

[Nexusman]

Pulled from the PAMB earlier today:

Congratulations on the dollar. Mine is next to my writing machine (computer) on the wall. Along with my other accomplishments.

Emphasis mine. See what PA is doing to people here?

-Nick

[Jean Marie]

Stupid, lousy rotten dollar PA probably stole from another author just to give that author gets deducted from their royalty check. That is, if they ever sell any books, 'cause if they buy 'em, no check for that http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Oh, wait, the infamous family and friends list...

[Sootie]

Guys,
I just got an e-mail from one of the older authors, and they said that they chose the no editing option for their second book. They said that PA very kindly put mistakes in their book, and then wouldn`t correct them. It`s a damn crime.

Sootie. Grrrrrr. :e2chain:

[BeeBomb]

Sootie, in my third book, PA changed the name of one of the characters...everywhere in the book, as well as, other character names and street names. It was not that way when I sent in the manuscript. It took me forever to correct what they had changed in my book. I did not have the options they throw in front of the newbies and when I sent in my book...NO errors...only when they sent me their take of what they wanted in MY book did the errors appear.

Bee

[Aconite]

Congratulations on the dollar. Mine is next to my writing machine (computer) on the wall. Along with my other accomplishments.
PA authors whose only points of comparison are other vanity presses may not realize why that one-dollar advance is so sad. Check out Show Me the Money (http://www.karenafox.com/money.htm), which lists advances (for both first novels and subsequent books), royalty percentages, and earn-outs from 41 publishers.

[Lady of Prose]

This may be considered author-bashing,
Yet, you wrote it anyway. Why is that?
and many do not read as much as the average aspiring writer. How do you know this, Steve? you would have to have personal knowledge of a person to know they didn't read much. Wouldn't that make them a friend? I happen to know many of the PA authors considered you their friend. I wonder what they think when they read your snarky remarks. I know that sounds bad, Well. . . yeah. I wonder why you want to write bad things. In some cases, PA is doing more of a disservice to the reading public than they are to the author, but I would never say that on a public forum. ;)
A tad over the line, Steve. Doesn't bother me--we're not friends and I don't have to rate with you. The only people I have to prove my writing abilities to are my future publishers. But I do get an "ouch" when I think of those hurting and fighting PA authors who did consider you friend.

Write on, ole boy!;)

[Lady of Prose]

Oh, oh, oh, this sounds a lot like someone in a writer's chat yesterday whom several members suspected to be a troll. :e2bummed:

I think we sometimes jump the gun on labeling people as trolls--when in fact, they are still in denial, or just coming around to the knowledge they have been had. And sometimes, we miss them completely! :)

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Please let me know if there is any additional information I could provide....

....The reason not to publish your work with another publisher while it's contracted to PA is because the other publisher would be very unhappy if he/she found out, and it would give you a black mark in the publishing world.You may want to reemphasize that this only goes for the particular book(s) contracted with PA. The first time I read your post, it sounded to me like you were saying that an author would have to wait out the seven year contract to try to publish anything with another publisher. (On my second read-through, I saw where you'd made this clear, but if I got it wrong on the first reading, it's possible someone else might, too. You might just want to double-check that your contact understands that s/he can totally write a different book Right Now and try to have it published any old time.)

The only way to have your books published by a different company, while they are with PA, is to sign the nefarious non-exclusivity amendment to your contract. The amendment is written in such a way that no other genuine publisher would ever take your book on board. It only leaves an author free to go with another vanity publisher with a lower cover price, such as Lulu. What's more, the non-exclusivity amendment entails also a gag clause, and renews your contract for seven years from the signing of the amendment.I'd want to get very specific explaining this concept, since your contact may be very new to the publishing industry. Make sure s/he understands that:

* The gag-clause on the non-exlusivity amendment prevents author from showing said amendment to other publishers; this makes it impossible for the author to prove that s/he has the rights to offer to the other publisher.

* The non-exclusivity clause only means that PA doesn't mind if another publisher begins producing the book; PA still, however, has the right to produce it themselves. This means that the author is not able to offer exclusive rights to the book to a different publisher. Most commercial publishers are only interested in exclusive rights. This leaves the author realistically restricted to vanity and self-publishing.

I know you understand these things, but your contact might not.

I wish this person every good thing in his/her future writing career.

[NancyMehl]

But don't expect me to feel guilty about telling the truth. I left that crap behind when I left the PAMB.

There are many things we could say here that might be true - but they may not be helpful or kind. We have to remember that PA authors are reading here - and PA authors are posting here.

As much as I want to warn writers away from PA, I can't help but think about PA authors who are so excited about selling their first book - then they wander over here for the first time. The shock and hurt must be devastating for some of them. Remember, they sold a book! They're real authors...or so they think. They can go from the highest high to the lowest low. It certainly isn't our fault - it's PA's. But...we should try to keep our comments directed as much toward PA as possible. They're the enemy - not the authors.

Nancy

[DaveKuzminski]

Nancy's advice is good.

Remember, Willem and others at PA have already tried to incite their authors against anyone who criticizes PA. It's not a good idea to help him.

[Dawno]

Commentary about Trolls and posts about one's personal issues with other members' posts are OT for this thread - there's the Overflow thread and PMs for that.

Can we stick to talking about PA please? It would really save Jim, Mac and Lori a lot of porting work if we'd do a better job of self-moderating on NEPAT.

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

Yeah, well - I was one of those individuals who did the "happy dance" when my book was accepted by PublishAmerica. The happy dance was followed by the "electric slide" when the contract was signed. The electric slide was followed by "cart-wheels" when the author copies arrived. "Gung-HO!" Argile Stox promoted PublishAmerica and my book everywhere.

One day, I decided to Google PublishAmerica and found AW. I read every single post that mentioned PublishAmerica; and my jaw soon dropped to the floor! Google offered a link to Mindsight - which contained more stuff on PublishAmerica. There was a list, pages long regarding unhappy PublishAmerica authors.

It did not take me too long to figure out PublishAmerica's business plan. Still, I held my head high. After all, I was a published Author, right? After visiting booksellers and having conversations with managers - who educated this writer on the right and wrong way to be published, I soon discovered that "printed author" was my new title.

Time passed and I sent out press releases, e-mails, etc, to individuals who would be interested in my memoir. There were a few nibbles and a few sales.

Then, the unthinkable happened - Shemp's "Death Hoax" that occurred on an Easter Weekend. I had a telephone conversation with Miranda Prather, and she off-handedly admitted that she was aware of the hoax - "All Shemp wanted to do was kill off Shemp," she said, in a somber tone.

The final "crunch" happened when Shemp and his co-conspirators were still allowed to post on the old PAMB and subsequently, the new PAMB. I mean, geez! Individuals were being banned left and right for just saying "BOO!" Not even a Death Hoax could get them banned.

Tracy & I were completely fed up with the "tone" letters, bold-faced lies, and arrogant attitude of the entire PublishAmerica Printing House. So, I began to collect evidence that would - like a boiling hot bowl of soup spilling into a lap, cause everyone at PublishAmerica to stand up and start printing their resume's.

One heart attack and stent implantation later, I am slowly recovering. I figure, in about one month - the final tweak of my media attack on PublishAmerica will be completed.

Argile Stox

[Celia Cyanide]

I agree for the most part. However, I do see some flashes of real talent. What is lacking is effective structure and technique.

To be fair, I don't think us unpublished writers can be expected to know for certain whether or not our own work is good. I like to think I can read other people's writing and evaluate with is good/bad about it, but if I could do it for myself, I wouldn't be taking writing classes and workshops. It isn't that I don't have ANY talent. It is just very difficult to judge yourself when you are an aspiring, unpublished writer. And as for those PA authors who still have much to learn, they are being lied to, and told their work is ready to be published, when it's not. When someone they believe to be a publisher tells them, "You're good enough to be published," of course they believe it. What aspiring writer would argue with that? PA is denying writers the chance to learn from their mistakes and become better writers.

[spike]

I agree for the most part. However, I do see some flashes of real talent. What is lacking is effective structure and technique.

I just didn't want it to seem as if we were dismissing these writers completely. That would be unfair. One writer really stood out to me as someone who could do much better than PA.

Of course, the truth is, anyone can do better! PA shouldn't be a choice for anyone.

Nancy

Of course some of PA's writers are going to be talented. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day!

[Nexusman]

Pulled from the PAMB, emphasis mine:

Oh, yeah! I got my books today; my two copies. I can't wait to order more for selling. There is such a good deal right now for ordering. I'm just so excited and had to tell everyone, especially other new authors. It is a wonderful feeling when you actually hold that bad boy in your hands!!!! Thank you, Lord!!

Yeah, there is a good deal for ordering -- wonder why? I seriously need to lay off the cynicism...

-Nick

[endless rewrite]

also taken from PAMB today

Quote - My book will be released on March 4. That's a good news for me. Bad news FOR ME and maybe some of you is, that I have been in touch with two very good retailers and was told that they after they checked what PA is charging for our books and SHIPPING in many cases is higher than the price of the book, they will never order my book since to make it profitable, they would have to sell it for $30.00 and NOBODY IS GOING TO BUY PAPERBACK BOOK for that price. Sadly... I have to agree.


Amazingly there have been no perky buck up and promote responses but I suspect that soon there will be no post to respond to.

There are some situations that no amount of free bookmarks, hounding of store staff and poxy press releases will save.

[Sparhawk]

also taken from PAMB today

Quote - My book will be released on March 4. That's a good news for me. Bad news FOR ME and maybe some of you is, that I have been in touch with two very good retailers and was told that they after they checked what PA is charging for our books and SHIPPING in many cases is higher than the price of the book, they will never order my book since to make it profitable, they would have to sell it for $30.00 and NOBODY IS GOING TO BUY PAPERBACK BOOK for that price. Sadly... I have to agree.


Amazingly there have been no perky buck up and promote responses but I suspect that soon there will be no post to respond to.

There are some situations that no amount of free bookmarks, hounding of store staff and poxy press releases will save.

Nobody but Mom, Dad, relatives and a few close friends; the PAvidian Business model target market. <<SIGH>> Another dream shattered on the fruited plain. Man, you can just feel the pain. Reality just dropped on this poor soul like a brick. That's the worse part of the PA experience, the realization that your dream has not and will not ever come true.

I truly feel bad for this person.

[endless rewrite]

If PA has now raised shipping costs to equal or above the price of the book for a store, they have surely ensured that sales will firmly remain direct to the author.

Makes life so much more simple, no more pesky royalties to account for, no returns to worry about, just ship them out in one bulk package and let the author sit amongst their unshelved books and weep.

I too feel for this author, it must be depressing beyond words.

[Aconite]

If PA has now raised shipping costs to equal or above the price of the book for a store, they have surely ensured that sales will firmly remain direct to the author.
I suspect the writer meant--or the person at the bookstore meant--that the cost of the book (PA books start out about $5 more than comparable books, then are short discounted--only 5%) plus the shipping on the book raised the bookstore's cost for the book above the cover price, meaning the bookstore loses money on each book sold at the already inflated cover price.

[keltora]

I suspect the writer meant--or the person at the bookstore meant--that the cost of the book (PA books start out about $5 more than comparable books, then are short discounted--only 5%) plus the shipping on the book raised the bookstore's cost for the book above the cover price, meaning the bookstore loses money on each book sold at the already inflated cover price.

Okay...so..

Just playing with figures here.

One average PA book with a cover price of say $27.95 discounted at 5% (approximately $1.40) would be $26.55 at its discount price.

And considering the depth of the discount bookstores usually get, they would have to sell the book for way more than $30.00 to get any profit at all.

Hmmmmm...

Maybe I am wrong, but it would never be worth a bookstore's time to carry a PA book at those rates.

[mdin]

I don't know the cover price of the book in question, but I suspect it's something more like this... They need a 40% discount to make a profit. So a 19.95 book discounted 5% is 18.95 + (?) 3.00 shipping = $21.95 cost to store. If it costs the store 21.95, and they want to self impose a 40% discount, they would have to charge $36.59.

Even without a charge for shipping (so the book costs them $18.95) they would still have to charge $31.59.

[Aconite]

POZKIN (http://www.freewebs.com/pozkin/legalwatch.htm) reports that a second PA author (Phil Dolan was the first) has won in arbitration against PA. There are no details, as the author signed a non-disparagement agreement as part of the settlement, but POZKIN says that "rescission of the contract was awarded."

[SC Harrison]

I don't know how new this is, but I don't remember seeing it the last time I scrolled through the propaganda:


Today's author must be active, and he must be innovative. As is the case with all objects of art and creation, there are hurdles to be scaled: there's 190,000 other authors out there whose new book will be released by the nation's 50,000+ publishers this year, there are bookstore managers who are reluctant to stock unknown books even if they can return copies that remain unsold, and, plain and simple, there's jealous peers to deal with, folks who don't want you to be successful. So what else is new? Nothing at all, but it's good to back up words of caution with a reality check.


Actually, it's there are jealous peers to deal with, although it doesn't contract well (there're?). Anyway, their FAQ page seems to have morphed into a CYA page, with a nod to AW and our ilk.

Um, 50,000 publishers?

[Martin J Ross]

I don't know how new this is, but I don't remember seeing it the last time I scrolled through the propaganda:


Today's author must be active, and he must be innovative. As is the case with all objects of art and creation, there are hurdles to be scaled: there's 190,000 other authors out there whose new book will be released by the nation's 50,000+ publishers this year, there are bookstore managers who are reluctant to stock unknown books even if they can return copies that remain unsold, and, plain and simple, there's jealous peers to deal with, folks who don't want you to be successful. So what else is new? Nothing at all, but it's good to back up words of caution with a reality check.


Actually, it's there are jealous peers to deal with, although it doesn't contract well (there're?). Anyway, their FAQ page seems to have morphed into a CYA page, with a nod to AW and our ilk.

Um, 50,000 publishers?

Well, if you count each person that self publishes a book as a publisher ...
There you go, 50,000+ Technically true, but misleading.

[mdin]

there's jealous peers to deal with, folks who don't want you to be successful.

It's been there for a while, but it used to say "jalous peers."

[Ken Schneider]

Um' PA, if as you said, 190,000 other published authors out there, why would they be jealous? They are also "Published authors." You should change that to "Stiff competition."

And no one wishes ill will on your stable, or any other house's writers. We wish ill will on shoddy and deceptive business practices within the industry.

Keep trying, your words are as see thorugh as a sheet of rice paper.

[James D. Macdonald]

There're somewhere around 4,000 publishers listed in Writer's Market, and that includes both book and magazine publishers.

Who the other 46,000 publishers are I couldn't begin to tell you. Even counting church groups that print up cookbooks, museums that do reproductions of maps, and the guy up the road who prints pamphlets on how to avoid paying income tax, you'd be hard-pressed to find 15,000 publishers in the US and Canada combined.

The 150,000 titles is also misleading: it includes textbooks, reference books, scholarly monographs, the bound report of the state fishery board, and many other items that were never intended for trade sale.

[DaveKuzminski]

If you know any PA authors going into arbitration, please urge them not to sign anything with a non-disparagement clause. Don't help PA cover up their crimes!

[Ilovepensandpaper]

Hello everyone,
As you can tell by the title, I am another PA casualty. I thought PA was a real publisher and they it would have my books in the major bookstores. I thought it would atleast do a little promoting beyond that tacky press release/order form. When I got my author copies, it was trying to get me to buy more copies and order some other book. I didn't see my media release in the newspaper, so I wrote my own and emailed it in. I emailed a public library and three bookstores. I haven't heard from the library or two of the bookstores yet. One would only shelve books from that city's authors because the other self-published books caused it to lose money. And having to buy my own books for book readings and signings? What?
I am incensed, insulted, irritated, embarrassed, ashamed - you name it. I worked hard on my poetry and wanted it to be published and some con-artist took advantage of that!
I have friends who wanted free copies, and I can't give them copies. Family will probably want some too. People saw my self-made release in the paper - people who knew me from school and all. What am I supposed to say?
While I do want my friends to have a copy of my work, I don't want PA getting any money.
I don't know what to do with my website. Stuff is just overwhelming, and simple stuff is overwhelming when you have a nervous disorder. I feel like the anger is simmering, waiting for a time to explode out.
This situation sucks royally, and for PA: Karma is a you-know-what.

[aruna]

Hello everyone,
I am incensed, insulted, irritated, embarrassed, ashamed - you name it. I worked hard on my poetry and wanted it to be published and some con-artist took advantage of that!


Welcome to this thread! We can't undo the done, but you'll find good company here and that might help lessen the pain.

[James D. Macdonald]

It's very difficult to sell poetry collections. Many poets do self-publish.

The differences between PA and self-publishing are that self-publishing is cheaper, and you don't give up your rights for seven years.

[Mac H.]

Hi 'Ilovepensandpaper',

People saw my self-made release in the paper - people who knew me from school and all. What am I supposed to say?Just say the truth. That you're happy with your poetry, but aren't happy with your publisher. There's nothing to be embarrassed about just because your publisher offers a bad deal for you. They accept good books just as readily as others, so it doesn't reflect on your poetry at all.

Remember, James D knows what he's talking about. It's no shame for a poetry collection to be self-published -- that's just the realities of the industry.

Curiously, is it possible that your poems AREN'T locked up for 7 years by the contract? After all, the work that PA holds is the COLLECTION of poems, not necessarily the individual poems themselves.

That MIGHT mean you could publish the individual poems in later collections ??

Good luck for the future !

Mac.

[MacAllister]

Curiously, is it possible that your poems AREN'T locked up for 7 years by the contract? After all, the work that PA holds is the COLLECTION of poems, not necessarily the individual poems themselves. That's a really interesting question, Mac H.--I don't know as it's been discussed here, before. Short story collections, too, might be in a gray zone--I don't know enough about copyright law to even guess at whether this is a potential loophole for folks.

[Duncan J Macdonald]

Curiously, is it possible that your poems AREN'T locked up for 7 years by the contract? After all, the work that PA holds is the COLLECTION of poems, not necessarily the individual poems themselves.
That's a really interesting question, Mac H.--I don't know as it's been discussed here, before. Short story collections, too, might be in a gray zone--I don't know enough about copyright law to even guess at whether this is a potential loophole for folks.

I'd be very careful of that thought. Of such hair-splitting are legal careers made. Checking the nearest anthology at hand, I note that while the work as a whole is copyrighted, so too is each individual story.
As in all things Jawish, "It Depends". Seek professional IP/Copyright counsel.

[Mac H.]

As in all things Jawish, "It Depends". Seek professional IP/Copyright counsel.For the record, I agree entirely.

Just to make it clear - I was wondering if it was possible, not suggesting that people assume that it was true !

Mac

[MacAllister]

Oh, definitely. :) I expect someone will be along at some point, though, who can shed some light on the question.

[DaveKuzminski]

So, the copyright holder is gonna sue himself for using one or more of the short stories or poems in another publication? PA doesn't hold the copyrights to the individual stories or poems. They have the right to publish only that specific collection.

[Christine N.]

IIRC, look at the copyright paperwork. Somewhere I read on the copyright site, maybe, I saw that an anthology/collection can be registered as a collection, or as individual pieces. If it's registered as a collection, only that collection falls under the copyright.

I have a story in an upcoming anthology - and the deal is that they hold copyright to the collection, but each author holds the copyright to their story. So if I wanted to publish it somewhere else, or excerpt it, I can.

Again, ask Jaws.

[DaveKuzminski]

I have a story in an upcoming anthology - and the deal is that they hold copyright to the collection, but each author holds the copyright to their story.

But in this case, the collection is copyrighted by the author and PA holds only the publishing rights they purchased.

[James D. Macdonald]

We've hit 30,000 posts in this thread ... and it's unwieldy.

So I'm going to close this one (it'll still be readable for archive purposes) and open a new NEPAT Part II (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26537).

See you there....