Tolkien and Fantasy Writers

thethinker42 · Jan 17, 2007

Ok, no joke, I was having a conversation about writing fantasy with some non-writers. I commented that I had never read Tolkien (still haven't, don't intend to). One of them actually said (with a disgusted snort): "How can you call yourself a fantasy writer if you don't read Tolkien?"

I've gotten this reaction before and since, and it annoys me to no end. My response is that Tolkien wrote HIS fantasy world, I'm writing MINE. I'm so sick of writers immitating Tolkien, and I'm almost afraid that if I read his work, I'll do the same. I have no desire or inclination to read his work...not slamming it, just not interested in it, and I don't think that affects -- positively or negatively -- my ability to write fantasy.

So...I'm curious what do you think? Is Tolkien required reading to write fantasy?

zornhau · Jan 17, 2007

I think one needs to read some modern fantasy writers just to get a handle on (a) What reader assumptions you can rely on, and (b) Ways around technical problems related to writing fantasy.

But Tolkien? Nah. :Hail:

Robert E. Howard, almost definitely.

arkady · Jan 17, 2007

I first read Tolkien thirty years ago, and I've read LOTR many times since. But my fantasy world doesn't even remotely resemble his, so I have no problem.

The idea that you can't be a fantasy writer without reading Tolkien, though, is absurd.

Rabe · Jan 17, 2007

Oh ye gawds I certainly hope and pray that one can be a fantasy writer without ever having read Tolkien! The only way I could trudge my way through LoTR was so I could boo and hiss at the inaccuracies of the movies. Only to find myself wishing I'd seen the movies first so I could boo and hiss at the idiocy of the novels!

(love the Hobbit though, go fig!)

However, the sad commentary is that I don't think we can actually ever really get away from Tolkien in the fantasy genre. Heck, some other big things in other genres are derivative of Tolkien to some degree. Read the books or not, we are still culturally impacted by the work. From Dungeons and Dragons (and all other derivatives) to Babylon 5 - a great many works these days owe more than a passing nod to LoTR. It's a source of inspiration to a great many minds and a great many works that came out of those minds.

But, if you've never read LoTR then my jealousy to you. As for your non-writer friends. Why the hell are you caring what they have to say about writing anyway? Isn't that sort of like taking a movie critique from the Amish?

Rabe...

Jamesaritchie · Jan 17, 2007

Tolkien

If yu don't want to read Tolkien, you certainly don't have to, but I think you're reasons for not trying the novels are incredibly silly.

Like it or not, these novels are the standard, are the most famous fantasy novels ever written, and there is a huge blank space in your knowledge base because you haven't read them.

And if you haven't read them, you really have no clue whether something else is a Tolkien clone or not.

Tolkien, whatever anyone says, was a great writer, and the LOTR novels are magnificent. The last thing I'd want to do would be to read anything called fantasy by a writer who hadn't read the novels, or who didn't like and appreciate them, at least on some level.

southern_cross3 · Jan 17, 2007

I wouldn't say that it is required to read Tolkien to be a Fantasy writer, but I have certainly found inspirations in his work. Even beyond The Lord of the Rings, perusing his writings shows insight into his great mind and imagination. I would recommend the books to anyone, writer or not.

readlorey · Jan 17, 2007

I read Tolkein as a child long ago and it was really good. When they came out with movies, which I adore, I tried to read them again, but couldn't get past the archaic (there's that word again) writing. It was too much like work to actually read them.

As for being necessary to write fantasy? Um, no, I don't think so. Maybe as a reference describing an elf or something, but other than that I don't see the value in them.

And why would you listen to a non writer anyway. Non writers have no clue as to what it is like as a writer. Only us, your loving family, understand the insanity. Why? Because we are writers.

I, personally, don't talk to non writers about my writing. I talk to writers about my writing. That's just me though.

victoriastrauss · Jan 17, 2007

I would suggest than any aspiring fantasy or SF writer read the classics of the genre. A deeper understanding of the genre you write in is never a bad thing. If nothing else, you'll be better able to avoid inadvertent repetition.

As a child, I hated The Hobbit; later on, I did not enjoy The Lord of The Rings, which to me read like a very extended, dull, and overwritten Norse saga. (This was back in the 1970's, when LOTR was a fad, and people wore T-shirts saying "Frodo Lives.") Over the years, though, I've become better able to appreciate its significance. Whatever you think of it as a novel, it's a hugely important, influential work, the foundation of the commercial fantasy genre. Well worth reading just for that, IMO.

- Victoria

dpaterso · Jan 17, 2007

thethinker42 said:
So...I'm curious what do you think? Is Tolkien required reading to write fantasy?

Depends what kind of fantasy you're writing. If it's high fantasy with Elves and Dwarves and stuff, then some knowledge of where JRRT took his stories is probably a good thing, so you can avoid treading the same roads.

This is probably an absurd comparison but... because I was fond of it, I kept submitting a fantasy story I must have written in 1997 to various mags and zines, just to make it feel wanted. I'd give it a sanity check read and maybe tinker with it before each submission, but alas it kept getting bounced, "Not for us," etc. Such is life. Anyways, last week I happened to catch a bit of Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azwhatever showing on TV, and heard no less than three familiar character names, and saw two kinda-familiar scenes. "Hey, that's my story!" I cried, immediately calling my lawyer. Kidding -- but I wonder if anyone reading said story might have thought I was ripping off HP, which I haven't read (tried to, personal tastes stopped me).

The more you read, the more echoes you can consciously avoid. Just a thought.

-Derek

thethinker42 · Jan 17, 2007

Rabe said:
As for your non-writer friends. Why the hell are you caring what they have to say about writing anyway? Isn't that sort of like taking a movie critique from the Amish?

I should've been more specific: they're avid fantasy readers, and I was getting some opinions on some story ideas. I find some of my friends who read fantasy are good for bouncing ideas off of. Sorry, should've been clearer.

ink wench · Jan 17, 2007

I guess I'm in trouble then too. I finally picked up the LOTR when the films came out and I had to force myself to finish them. I thought Tolkien's world building was impressive, but the stories and characters bored me to tears. It's just not the kind of fantasy I like and it's not the kind I write. (And I'm so glad to see I'm not the only fantasy reader/writer who feels that way!)

I can certainly see the need to read widely in one's genre though, and that includes classics.

thethinker42 · Jan 17, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
Tolkien, whatever anyone says, was a great writer, and the LOTR novels are magnificent. The last thing I'd want to do would be to read anything called fantasy by a writer who hadn't read the novels, or who didn't like and appreciate them, at least on some level.

Ok, see, this is exactly what I don’t understand. I appreciate that Tolkien’s work is great, and highly influential. I’m just not interested in reading it. It’s that simple. However, that does not mean my writing in the fantasy genre is “wrong”, or inferior, or anything of the sort. I agree that Tolkien was immensely influential, but I do NOT believe his work is or should be the measuring stick by which another writer’s work should be evaluated. Bad writing is bad writing, but as far as the elements of the story, doing things differently than Tolkien is not a sin whether it's because a person is unfamiliar with Tolkien or just choosing a different direction. I simply don't believe that I NEED to read Tolkien in order to be a fantasy writer.

To each their own, and I respect that you have a different opinion on this, but it’s something I’ve struggled to understand.

thethinker42 · Jan 17, 2007

And why would you listen to a non writer anyway. Non writers have no clue as to what it is like as a writer. Only us, your loving family, understand the insanity. Why? Because we are writers.

I, personally, don't talk to non writers about my writing. I talk to writers about my writing. That's just me though.

At the time, I didn't know a lot of fellow writers.

(This was a couple of years ago, but I was thinking about it the other day) Also, they're fantasy readers, so I was hoping for a little insight on a problem I was having with a character.

I have found fellow readers to be great for that purpose, but when in general, I do keep my writing between myself and other writers.

RG570 · Jan 17, 2007

Tolkien is terrible. If you have no desire to read it, why waste valuable reading time on it?

thethinker42 · Jan 17, 2007

ink wench said:
I guess I'm in trouble then too. I finally picked up the LOTR when the films came out and I had to force myself to finish them. I thought Tolkien's world building was impressive, but the stories and characters bored me to tears. It's just not the kind of fantasy I like and it's not the kind I write. (And I'm so glad to see I'm not the only fantasy reader/writer who feels that way!)

Haha! No, you're definitely not the only one.

I can certainly see the need to read widely in one's genre though, and that includes classics.

Oh agreed!

I have a VAST library of fantasy as well as other types of fiction. Can you recommend any other classics within the genre that you found more palatable than Tolkien? I have a book of short stories from prior to Tolkien, but it's still a few spots down in my stack of "books to read". LOL

Shadow_Ferret · Jan 17, 2007

When I was in high school everyone was reading Tolkien. I read Robert E. Howard and all the other SAGA writers.

When I was in high school everyone was listening to disco. I listened to Black Sabbath and more obscure rock bands of the day.

When I was in high school everyone was either a cheerleader or a jock, I spent my time reading and writing.

See a pattern here?

I wasn't a follower.

Anyway, I have tried and tried to read Tolkien. I've never gotten more than a few paragraphs into LOTR. I did manage to finally force my way through The Hobbit and wasn't particularly impressed with the writing. The story and imagination were good, but not good enough to compell me to continue on to LOTR.

I've even tried LISTENING to LOTR on tape. I think I made it to tape 4 of however many there were, over a dozen methinks. Didn't interest me. Even the movies don't interest me.

So have no fear, you can write fantasy and not read Tolkien.

dclary · Jan 17, 2007

As writers, there are only two ways to improve our writing.

The first, and most active, is to write.

The second, and most educational, is to read.

And while not reading the books that are widely considered the mastercraft documents of a genre is certainly acceptable, it would be akin to trying to craft films without studying Citizen Kane, Casablance, Sunset Strip, or building bridges without studying the Golden Gate or Brooklyn.

badducky · Jan 17, 2007

Hm. I think that one element of Tolkein that was just as important as his writing was the various media ripples that spawned out of his books. Pen & Paper AD&D, the unfinished American Anime of the Hobbit, and Led Zeppelin's wonky-brilliant lyrics are as much a part of the books as the books themselves. As a writer of fantasy, understanding that event is vital to repeating the success in your own, genre-defining way. You as a writer are going to have to deal with the influence of this book.

That said, I'd suggest reading at least one of the books, not because you have to to be a writer. You don't. But, they ARE classics. Classics of every genre should be approached by everyone. That's why they're "classics".

alaskamatt17 · Jan 17, 2007

You don't have to read Tolkien to be a fantasy writer but, as a fantasy writer, one would expect you to have some degree of appreciation for an imaginative story set in a world with elements most people wouldn't expect to see in our own. For people who start reading The Hobbit as adults, it can be tedious, since the book was written for children and doesn't seem like very much in terms of literary quality. The Lord of the Rings also poses a challenge, because in the beginning it is a little dry. It picks up, though, in terms of pace, but what makes the books great in my opinion is that they aren't as strictly plot- and character-based as the majority of the novels out there. Tolkien put most of his efforts into worldbuilding and it shows. As a gateway to a world that is not our own, The Lord of the Rings succeeds in a way that very few works have matched.

rugcat · Jan 17, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
Tolkien, whatever anyone says, was a great writer, and the LOTR novels are magnificent. The last thing I'd want to do would be to read anything called fantasy by a writer who hadn't read the novels, or who didn't like and appreciate them, at least on some level.

Amen.

First, from an historical perspective, don’t forget that Tolkien practically invented heroic fantasy, at least in our modern sense. That alone would be a major accomplishment worthy of being read by anyone with an interest in writing fantasy of any stripe.

Second, LOTR, whatever its flaws, is an astounding work of genius in its own right, with some truly great writing on many levels. I am constantly amazed at the number of writers at AW who find it boring and don’t see what all the fuss is about.

BTW, I write urban fantasy and in general don’t particularly care for heroic fantasy

MattW · Jan 17, 2007

I've read the whole LOTR, and I do appreciate the influence that it has had on the genre. The baseline story is epic and draws deeply from many historical sources, but there are many features that I did not enjoy. And I will never read it again, except maybe an abridged version aloud to my kids.

Why is this one story exempt from personal tastes?

rugcat · Jan 17, 2007

MattW said:
Why is this one story exempt from personal tastes?

It isn't, of course. The dismissal of the work simply surprises me.

But this goes back to the same old argument of whether all value judgements are subjective or not. If someone says, "I don't get this veneration of Shakespeare - he's a boring hack," is that a totally valid opinion, as valid as those who believe in Shakespeare's genius? Or perhaps are they missing something?

Not that I'm in any way comparing Shakespeare and Tolkien.

dclary · Jan 17, 2007

What kills Tolkien for most people are the first few chapters. One big ass chapter about a birthday that is BORING if you have no idea what Bilbo's personal history is.

Followed just a chapter or two down the road with a MASSIVE centuries-spanning DATADUMP (the council of elrond).

IMO, the movie did a MUCH better job of breaking up these chapters (through the action-packed prologue, and other techniques) to a point where the uninitiated could enjoy it, and hopefully absorb more.

Tia Nevitt · Jan 17, 2007

thethinker42 said:
So...I'm curious what do you think? Is Tolkien required reading to write fantasy?

Although I have read Tolkien, my novel is based on myth rather than Tolkien style high fantasy. Nary an elf to be found! So my opinion is no, you do not have to read Tolkien.

However, high fantasy is so very popular that as a serious fantasy writer, perhaps you take the plunge and read it, just to see what the fuss is about.

MattW · Jan 17, 2007

dclary said:
What kills Tolkien for most people are the first few chapters. One big ass chapter about a birthday that is BORING if you have no idea what Bilbo's personal history is.

Followed just a chapter or two down the road with a MASSIVE centuries-spanning DATADUMP (the council of elrond).

I could also read a 10 book series about Tom Bombadil....

But that's the standard complaint.

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