Outlines, love or hate'em but we need them right?

Pamster · Jan 16, 2007

Don't we need Outlines as tools to promote out books? Like after an agent showed interest you need to send in an outline which they in turn can use to sell your book to potential publishers. So how long should one be? Ten pages? Roughly three small paragraphs per chapter to capture the action and plot progression? Is that enough? Or do you end up having longer outlines? Just wanted to start a topic about Outlines because I like to use them sometimes, not every story but most of the time outlining comes naturally to me. What are your thoughts on outlines?

My-Immortal · Jan 16, 2007

I combine a bit of winging it with outlining. I visualize the story like a cross country trip - say traveling from LA to NY. The story starts out in LA and on my way to NY I know I want to visit Las Vegas, Phoenix, Devil's Tower Wy, Fargo ND, Chicago, Philadelphia and finally end up in NY. While I know where I want to go in the story, I don't always know how I will get from one place to the next - that's the winging it part of my outline. Once I get close to the end, NY, I like to break out the map and zero in on the actual street address - in other words, I like to plot the ending a little more once I near the end to make sure I've wrapped up all the storylines and I haven't forgotten one of the passengers (storylines) somewhere in the cornfields of Iowa....

Does that make any kind of sense?

Good luck with your writing. Find what works best for you and do it.

JeanneTGC · Jan 16, 2007

I hate outlines and never use them.

What we have to come up with to sell our novels are synopses. A synopsis is a lot like an outline, but more filled in, as it were. I would rather do it all at the end, though, than try to outline at the beginning.

Everyone's different; always go with what works for you.

PeeDee · Jan 16, 2007

I don't use outlines when I'm writing. I generally don't use outlines when I'm done writing. If someone asks for one (and has a right to ask for one) then I sit there and mostly bullshit my way through an e-mail or a phone call.

Pamster · Jan 16, 2007

So not everyone use them, cool! I was wondering if I should make one for the firs tnovel I wrote I am thinking of entering in that Gather.com contest.

Thank you for the replies so far, I really grateful for the feedback on this subject as it's been on my mind since I have detailed outlines for my other stories and don't have one for the original novel I wrote in 1998. Maybe it's not as important as I thought.

PeeDee · Jan 16, 2007

To some people, they're indespensible. To others, they're garbage. Some people (yo) can go either way.

But you don't HAVE to outline, just like you don't HAVE to use index cards and do one-paragraph biographies of your characters, just like you don't HAVE to know your ending when you start your story.

There are no Writing Police. They don't come and take you away.

(They do seem to come and take my tea away, though. Only explanation.)

Write. If something works, use it. If it doesn't work, don't use it.

MMcC · Jan 16, 2007

Since I started using New Novelist software I no longer need them. It's set up to allow you to have all your bits and pieces on either side of the central word processor screen, so if I need to refer back to something I just click.

I'll need an outline when it comes time to submit, but it should write itself when the sucker is done.

OmenSpirits.com · Jan 16, 2007

JeanneTGC said:
I hate outlines and never use them.

What we have to come up with to sell our novels are synopses. A synopsis is a lot like an outline, but more filled in, as it were. I would rather do it all at the end, though, than try to outline at the beginning.

Everyone's different; always go with what works for you.

I have to agree with you.

I hate outliines.

A synopsis is easy. Outlining's for the birds!

victoriastrauss · Jan 16, 2007

I think that a lot of the time when people say "outline," they're actually thinking of a synopsis--a narrative description of their novel (as opposed to the kind of I.A.1.a. thing we learned in high school).

If you're actively submitting to agents and publishers, it's tough to get by without a synopsis, since most do ask for them. For the Gather.com contest, you have to submit one along with the novel.

- Victoria

PeeDee · Jan 16, 2007

Synopsis are a whole different story. I write those before I even write the query letter, just so I can have it on hand. Synopsis can help you not only pitch your book properly, but write things like the back cover copy. Synopsis are good and dandy.

Outlines, I can take or leave.

....he says as he writes a serial story and is, in fact, outlining the next few episodes to make sure he doesn't goof.

Pamster · Jan 16, 2007

victoriastrauss said:
I think that a lot of the time when people say "outline," they're actually thinking of a synopsis--a narrative description of their novel (as opposed to the kind of I.A.1.a. thing we learned in high school).

If you're actively submitting to agents and publishers, it's tough to get by without a synopsis, since most do ask for them. For the Gather.com contest, you have to submit one along with the novel.

- Victoria

I think that is very true, that is the kind of outline I was thinking of, not the kind we used for notes in History class. I will be writing a synopsis along with the novel, I need to get cooking though it's been in it's current state for a long time so I had to go in and edit a lot today. I need to get cooking, what else can I say?

*goes to her open Word program and starts a Synopsis for Walk of Fire hoping it comes out as nice as she thinks*

johnzakour · Jan 16, 2007

I find the older I get the more I "outline" a story before I write it. Lately I find to get story down I need to have a rough outline before I write.

Shadow_Ferret · Jan 16, 2007

I have never outlined. I don't even know what that's for. Wait. I think I outlined once. It was for some non-fiction. But I've never done it for my fiction.

As far as a synopsis. Man, I wish I could hire someone to write that. That and the query letter. I absolutely suck at those and fear I'll never get in the door because of it.

ChaosTitan · Jan 16, 2007

Every novel I have written or co-written up until now has been outlined in some shape or form. Some authors need them, some novels need them. Sometimes I outline because the story comes to me in huge chunks, beginning, middle, and end, and if I don't write it all down, I'll forget it.

This time I'm working without an outline and it's been....interesting. We'll see how it goes.

stace001 · Jan 17, 2007

Shadow_Ferret said:
As far as a synopsis. Man, I wish I could hire someone to write that. That and the query letter. I absolutely suck at those and fear I'll never get in the door because of it.

I hear ya!! When you find someone to write them for you, let me know. I'd pay top dollar to have someone else sit and stare at my computer screen for hours on end with nothing to show for it. I HATE writing a synopsis. The pressure is just too much. If you write a bad one, chances are your story will never see the light of a publishing house.

As for outlines....I've never been able to write one. But I wish I could. I usually start with a basic idea of where I want the story to go, get stumped for a couple of months in the middle (that's where I'm up to now

) then hopefully I'll get a great jolt of insight into my characters and the rest of the story will rush out of me in no time. (I'm praying it will go that way)

Outlines....if you can write them, go for it. If you can't, I feel for ya.

Pamster · Jan 17, 2007

I think it's really difficult to write a good query and to pin down th eplot, I mean how do you determine which facts to mention and that might be interesting? Not always an easy task. I have to say though once written I am happy to have been able to break down the plot in a short synopsis.

I should have titled this thread, "Outlines/Synopsises love'em..." LOL

NeuroFizz · Jan 17, 2007

There is no need to outline, and many writers swear by the freedom that comes with avoiding outlines. However, ignore the person who says outlines are for the birds. If an outline is what works best for you, and it helps you get your story written, then it's an extremely valuable technique. If you do outline, though, don't restrict your writing to your initial scribblings. Let it evolve, and there will be no difference in creativity or spontaneity in comparison to writers who do not outline.

KiraOnWhite · Jan 17, 2007

Outlines are fun! Seriously! To make one flexible, one can just decide roughly what's going to happen in a chapter ( eg. someone dying) and probably the character's reactions. As for dialogue and inspirational quotes, they can come when writing the draft itself.

ChaosTitan · Jan 17, 2007

stace001 said:
I hear ya!! When you find someone to write them for you, let me know. I'd pay top dollar to have someone else sit and stare at my computer screen for hours on end with nothing to show for it.

They exist somewhere, but paying someone a huge fee to write something for you doesn't guarantee success. Agents and editors will still reject a well written query/synopsis if the book itself isn't what they want.

Like writing the novel itself, perfecting query and synopsis writing is just another tool in your writers toolbox.

jodiodi · Jan 17, 2007

Pamster said:
I think it's really difficult to write a good query and to pin down th eplot, I mean how do you determine which facts to mention and that might be interesting? Not always an easy task. I have to say though once written I am happy to have been able to break down the plot in a short synopsis.

You are so right. My current work I'm re-editing has a lot going on in it and each thing builds on something else so there are multiple plot lines going all at once.

I agree with Shadow_Ferret: if I could hire someone to do the synopsis I'd do it in a heartbeat and it'd be worth the money.

As for outlines, I've never used one except in school when we were required to turn one in. If they instructor didn't ask for it, I didn't do it.

stormie · Jan 17, 2007

I was asked to revise a portion of my novel by my agent. He asked for an outline first. I hate doing outlines. Well, it must have showed, because he emailed back within the hour to instead, send him a synopsis. I really like doing synopses (I write them in first person, present tense), so I did, and he liked it.

So, do what works for you, unless either one is specifically asked for by an editor or agent.

On my own, I never outline. No synopsis, either. I just wing it. More fun for me that way. But as I said, unless asked to do one, which is rare.

Pamster · Jan 17, 2007

NeuroFizz said:
There is no need to outline, and many writers swear by the freedom that comes with avoiding outlines. However, ignore the person who says outlines are for the birds. If an outline is what works best for you, and it helps you get your story written, then it's an extremely valuable technique. If you do outline, though, don't restrict your writing to your initial scribblings. Let it evolve, and there will be no difference in creativity or spontaneity in comparison to writers who do not outline.

Thanks NeuroFizz, I appreciate your input on this, the outlining I do does help me and I don't restrict myself to stand strigently adherent to said outlines. That way I can go with what feels right for the story at that point. It's merely a guide so I can look back and say to myself that "Yup I got that point in, and that emotion was properly expressed..." that kind of thing.

Pamster · Jan 17, 2007

KiraOnWhite said:
Outlines are fun! Seriously! To make one flexible, one can just decide roughly what's going to happen in a chapter ( eg. someone dying) and probably the character's reactions. As for dialogue and inspirational quotes, they can come when writing the draft itself.

Welcome to the Coller KiraOnWhite! I agree, outlines are fun and just do a little panning around the story with words, making sure you get all your bases covered.

I also don't outline dialogue, just doesn't feel right until I am in the thick of composing it.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Bufty · Jan 17, 2007

Presumably because your novels are written in first person -yes?

stormie said:
I really like doing synopses (I write them in first person, present tense)...

Pamster · Jan 17, 2007

chaostitan said:
They exist somewhere, but paying someone a huge fee to write something for you doesn't guarantee success. Agents and editors will still reject a well written query/synopsis if the book itself isn't what they want.

Like writing the novel itself, perfecting query and synopsis writing is just another tool in your writers toolbox.

I surely haven't found them but to be honest I haven't looked, I am interested in strengthening my query writing on my own through the advice learned from my writing peers.

Outlines, love or hate'em but we need them right?

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