Usage Rights of Copyrighted Material?

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Sohia Rose

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What’s the process like to get usage of copyrighted (text) material for a non-fiction book? The material in question is a 90-word poem by a famous poet who has been dead for 10 years, but I’m sure he has an estate.

The poem is recited in dialogue with one of my characters. I’m not sure if I should allude to it; have the character recite the entire piece; or provide a few words then ellipsis. I’d like to deal with this sooner rather than later.

If you have experience with this, I’d like to hear your thoughts. I understand I’ll need to consult an attorney for the final analysis.

Forgot to mention, the book is not about poetry.
 

K1P1

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Contact the publisher or the copyright holder and ask for permission to print it. They'll let you know the terms under which it's acceptable to them.
 

tourdeforce

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Before you contact the copyright holder, determine if your use falls within fair use boundaries.

Once you start negotiating with them, it will be that much harder to mak a fair use argument later.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Usage

Using a full poem never falls under fair use. Even a couple of lines is a high percentage of most poems, and it's a true statement that song writers and poets will sue at the drop of a line.

You simply are not allowed to use someone else's copyrighted work in your own fiction.

If the poet has only been dead ten years, then you'll probably be dead long before the poem loses copyright protection.

Always, always, always get permission before using someone else's copyright protected material in your own fiction. Claiming fair use isn't going to help you a bit. Either something is fair use or it isn't, and in this case, it definitely isn't.
 

tourdeforce

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Jamesaritchie said:
You simply are not allowed to use someone else's copyrighted work in your own fiction.... Always, always, always get permission before using someone else's copyright protected material in your own fiction. Claiming fair use isn't going to help you a bit. Either something is fair use or it isn't, and in this case, it definitely isn't.

This is supposedly for a non-fiction book. Depending on the circumstance, fair use could definitely apply in an editorial context.
 

aarthurco

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tourdeforce said:
This is supposedly for a non-fiction book. Depending on the circumstance, fair use could definitely apply in an editorial context.

If it's non fiction it may qualify under fair use, but it's sticky. I'd err on the side of safety.
 

Tish Davidson

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Just because it is non-fiction doesn't make it fair use. All those English textbooks that use poems and short stories in them, for example, have to get permission from the copyright holder and pay a use fee.
 

Deleted member 42

You need permission, and no, it's not fair use. A complete poem is never going to meet the fair use criteria, and fair use is determined by the court; the publisher is going to want permission.
 

tourdeforce

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It has not been determined exactly how Sophia will use the poem. The full piece... a selected sequence of it... or an allusion to it.

Depending on the decision she makes, if it is a selected sequence of it, then fair use could definitely apply depending on the context of her use.

To make an absolute statement that permission is needed based on the information currently available here is not appropriate.

The copyright holder will always tell you that their permission is needed so they should not be the source of your decision. They have a vested interest in the matter.

It is not unheard of for people to claim to hold rights that they do not have.

Sophia- determine what manner of use of this poem works best for your editorial use- the full poem? a section of it? and allusion to it? If you need to use the full poem, pursue copyright clearance. If you need to use just a section of it, then research fair use and decide if you think it fits within fair use boundaries. If you are alluding to it or commenting on it or mentioning it, then there is no clearance issue.
 
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Deleted member 42

Fair use is determined by the court. It's not a right. And the publisher will either say No or get permission or here's the form letter we use in such instances.

Publishers are not going to risk a court saying no, this is not fair use, and, in any case, most publishers will require an author to agree to an indemnity clause.

Look at the posts like this one from Jaws, an attorney with a great deal of experience in the copyright swamps.
 

tourdeforce

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Nothing in Jaws post is inconsistent with my feedback in this thread.

And yes, I have professional experience in this area as well.
 

tourdeforce

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Medievalist said:
Fair use is determined by the court. It's not a right.

Fair use is a right.

And no one goes to a court in advance of their fair use to determine if they are correct, so the first step in that process is for an author to determine that it is an acceptable course of action.

Could a rights holder sue? Of course. That is why fair use should be pursued carefully.

Is your point that no one should ever exercise their right of fair use?
 

Deleted member 42

Umm . . . no, really, fair use is not a right. It's a defense.

Seriously. Publishers aren't going to risk it; they just aren't. They might, possibly, hire someone like me to do a rights search and ask for permissions, but they aren't going to live dangerously.
 
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tourdeforce

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Sorry, but if you assessed your use correctly then your defense will uphold your right to fair use of the excerpt in question.

And, once again, if Sophia's publisher requires clearance, then the issue is moot.
 

Deleted member 42

Fair Use defense really and truly is a defense -- I say this after years of licensing and serving as an expert witness. It's really truly not a right. Sure a person can believe, and quite legitimately, that a use is well within fair use guidelines, but the safe harbor clauses are a defense. Whether or not they apply is a matter for the court to decide if a right's holder thinks otherwise.
 

Deleted member 42

If you use content thinking it fits within the fair use guidelines, and the rights holder disagrees and decides to take you to court, you will have to defend your use as within the fair use guidelines/safe harbor. There's no guarantee that you will win. Fair use is a defense against the charge of infringement.
 

tourdeforce

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You are completely ignoring the fact that if a court upholds your use, then they are upholding that you had a right to use the excerpt in the manner at hand.

That right is fair use.
 

Jaws

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tourdeforce, you're expressing a common misunderstanding of court verdicts and judgments. As a general principle, one should remember that no defense verdict or judgment means that the defendant had a right to do what the plaintiff sued the defendant for (allegedly) doing. It means only that the plaintiff did not establish its right to have the court order relief based on the defendant's actions. That can come from an actual right of the defendant that operates as a complete defense. Far more often, though, it comes from procedural failures, poor lawyering by one side or the other, shoddy or inadmissible evidence, or a mismatch between what the plaintiff wants and what the court has the power to grant. And that is especially so in copyright actions.

A win on a fair use defense (and it is a defense — you can tell because the burden of establishing fair use is on the defendant) does not mean that the defendant had a "right to use" the material. It establishes that the plaintiff could not overcome a defense to its (the plaintiff's) right to control others' use of the material before that particular court on that particular claim. It does not, for example, mean that the defendant can expand its use of the material, or change its use of the material, or change what the material was used in — each of those, with the right (and most common) set of facts, can allow the plaintiff to file a new and stronger claim.

tourdeforce, I'm not making a personal comment directed at you... but I am getting really, really sick of activists claiming that fair use is a right, and that copyright infringes "the public"'s right to do whatever the hell they want with anything. Copyright is a balancing act. There are elements of it that need to be altered, such as the (unconstitutional) work for hire doctrine and the (somewhat) excessive length. It is not an infringement on anyone's right of free expression — in Nation Enterprises, the Supreme Court explicitly remarked that the copyright act represents Congress's judgment of the balance between an enumerated power of Congress (Article I, § 8, cl. 8) and the First Amendment, and that judicial review of that balance is more than sufficient to preserve free expression.

What's really ironic about this whole argument is that the American concept of "fair use" is far broader than just about anyone else's parallel defenses to copyright actions. "Fair dealing" in the UK, Japan, Australia, etc. is quite a bit narrower, and in most of continental Europe it's not even a statutory defense — it's a judge-made defense limited to the particular circumstances (and limited far more narrowly than the five-factor test in § 107 of the US Copyright Act)*. In fact, the Berne Convention says not one word that one can construe as creating a fair use/fair dealing defense!

The bottom line remains this:
The best policy for dealing with questions of fair use is almost always common courtesy. It is not easier to get forgiveness (a post-use license agreement or win in court) than it is to ask permission. There are some circumstances in which that permission will not be forthcoming — intransigience, nonresponsiveness, inability to locate the copyright holder — but that is not an excuse for not trying. And, in any event, the question of how to document the use (whether by license, by permission, or by relying upon fair use) is going to be made by the publisher, so the publisher's discretion controls. Even if it is "objectively" a fair use, if the publisher's guidelines say that one must have permission, one must have permission. That's part of (or, at least, should be part of) every publishing contract.

* Yes, I said five factors. Section 107 lists four; in practice, courts always consider administrative convenience, even if not explicitly, in determining whether a particular use was fair.
 

tourdeforce

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One thing to note in this thread-

Everone is telling Sophia to absolutely without a doubt clear her use based on minimal, if any, information about her intended use.

I am telling her to do some research on fair use and determine what the best course of action is based on that.

That said-

It is absurd to say that fair use is a defense for something that does not exists in the first place.

The fair use defense is a defense of the authors right to use the material in the way they used it based on their right of fair use.

What would you be defending? Seriously, what case would you make to the court? That, based on the context, you have no right to use the quote but you did it anyway? Or that you had a right to do so under fair use?

What does the fair use defense represent?

An author/publisher can proclaim that they will never, ever grant permission for the use of selected quotes under any circumstance. That is not the end of the story. Under cetrina circumstances, others have a right to use quotes based on fair use.

In a perfect world, it would be recommended that every author ask for permission for their fair use material and that every publisher would be objective enough to admit when fair use is applicable or not.

But the world is not a perfect place.

Would you always recommend requesting permission? Even when the use is certainly covered under fair use?

Fair use is a defense for the right of fair use. If a court finds that your use was fair use, then they are finding that you had a right to use the matrial under fair use guidelines.

Use it correctly and you are on solid ground. Use it incorrectly, and the plaintiff gets a win against you.

Question- Would clearing rights that you do not need becuase your use is fair use be more harmful to your case if you are denied permission and proceed anyway?

And once again, if Sophia's publisher requires her to clear it, then this whole issue is a moot point and not an arguing point.
 

LloydBrown

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It's hard to imagine disagreement with such an authoritative, well-written description of the procedure, especially by someone with obviously far less (in fact, no) legal experience in the topic.

Yet, somehow I knew it was coming.

*splonk*
 

tourdeforce

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LloydBrown said:
It's hard to imagine disagreement with such an authoritative, well-written description of the procedure, especially by someone with obviously far less (in fact, no) legal experience in the topic.

Yet, somehow I knew it was coming.

*splonk*

First, I find your response rude.

Second, you do not know my background so you should not comment that I have no experience on the topic.

Third, you should note that in every legal case regarding fair use, there is a laywer on each side who is absolutely, positively sure that they know the law and are on the right side of it.
 
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K1P1

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tourdeforce said:
Third, you should note that in every legal case regarding fair use, there is a laywer on each side who is absolutely, positively sure that they know the law and are on the right side of it.

Actually, in my non-professional non-lawyerly way, I don't believe this is true. I think there is a lawyer on each side who knows on what grounds the argument can be made for both sides.
 

K1P1

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tourdeforce said:
Second, you do not know my background so you should not comment that I have no experience on the topic.

You could fix that by telling us. Based on your profile, I find that you make a claim to be sarcastic, which is indeed a characteristic of many lawyers (and non-lawyers) of my acquaintance.
 

Deleted member 42

tourdeforce said:
Second, you do not know my background so you should not comment that I have no experience on the topic.

Your responses and the language you use reveal your ignorance though.

Look, Jaws is not just another attorney; he's a fairly well-known, well-respected and exceedingly experienced publishing and IP attorney. This is what he does. Moreover, even if you only glanced at the links I've posted up-thread, you'd realize that you're not understanding basic principals and terminology.

Tourdeforce said:
It is absurd to say that fair use is a defense for something that does not exists in the first place.

The fair use defense is a defense of the authors right to use the material in the way they used it based on their right of fair use.

This is a dead giveaway -- you will not find fair use described as a right anywhere in Title 17; it isn't a right. It is only a potential defense if a rights holder asserts that infringement has occurred.

Moreover, the context of the original query doesn't meet the safe harbor/fair use defense criteria. It just doesn't.

Finally, though it is perhaps a "moot" point (and no, you're not really getting that term right either)--publishers don't care. They just don't want to be sued. So either they're going to say no, or they're going to say "get permission, and you'll be paying rights costs."
 
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