Relentless point of view

Actually, I've read many books that are written that way from the view of one MC and I've enjoyed them. Didn't think they were at all tiresome. I think Nelson DeMille's written a few like that.

A lot of novels do that. I think Harry Potter is first person limited. If Harry doesn't see or hear it, neither do we. We get to know what Harry thinks and feels "straight from the horse's mouth", while we have to guess at the motivations of others.

I mean, I know Harry Potter isn't everyone's idea of "great writing" from elsewhere in the forum, but it does illustrate how it can be used effectively to build suspense particularly. Because we don't know for sure what others are thinking, we can never be *quite* what will happen or what they will say.

I've read many books where the POV is strictly that of the MC, but I too find that it becomes stale the further you get into the story unless there is significant evolution in the development of the character or plot. I prefer to swap between the MC and supporting characters, but always hiding the details of the plot by relating information from their POV, which is not the same as the information related by the MC. Everyone gets their piece of the puzzle and urges the reader to fill in the blanks.

There's no significant difference between writing first person and third person limited (with just one POV), in terms of the focus on one character, so switching the type of POV wouldn't change anything. Pretty much just a change of pronoun, nothing else.

On the other hand, you can keep third person limited, but have scenes in other characters' pov if you want some variety.

But I suspect it's just a matter of middle-of-the-book (or nearing-the-end) blues. Everyone seems to get some variation on that, where the book sucks and we hate every word, and surely, if we go back and change just this one thing throughout, it will be so much better. Usually, though, that's just fear ambushing you, throwing roadblocks in the way of finishing the book. I would suggest you just keep going. If you want to change it to first person in the next draft, that's not too hard to do. Time-consuming, but not particularly hard. (On the other hand, if the character isn't particularly intresting in third limited, I'm not sure he/she would be any more interesting in first person.)

If you're not terribly far along, you could consider whether you want to add a second point of view for, say, a sidekick/best-friend character or an antagonist. I'm not sure what genre you're in, but there are some conventions there that might help you. For example, Mysteries tend to be in one POV (the sleuth's) and romances tend to alternate between the h/h's POVs, sometimes with additional POVs for secondary characters.

Oh, but whatever you do, DO NOT fill up pages with description to get away from the character a bit. If the character isn't interesting enough to hold the limelight, fix that, because description is DEFINITELY not interesting enough to hold the reader's attention. Also, if you're staying true to POV, the observations of the surroundings will be filtered through the POV character anyway, so you're not really getting away from him/her.

But, really, it sounds like you're just going through some sort of "what did I get myself into" blues and are doing some very normal flailing, the only solution for which is to just keep going.

JD

jess b said:

I'm hoping that someone out there can give me some advice--or just an assurance that what I'm doing is okay. Which I thought it was, when I started, but I've begun to lose confidence....

Anyway: I'm writing a novel in the 3rd person limited, and, at almost 60,000 words, it's begun to seem weird. Like, the protagonist is just too...foregrounded, all the time. Endless descriptions of her thoughts, her feelings, her actions. I mean, okay, that's the definition of 3-p-l, but can't it be tiresome to have the same person at front and center all the time? (It doesn't help that the novel I'm currently reading very successfully narrates through the 1st person using 2 different characters.) I just can't seem to think of any novels that use 3rd person limited, although I'm quite certain that I've read any number of them over the years.... Is everyone just using 1st person instead, these days? I'm used to writing in the 1st person--that just feels more natural to me--and, in my last novel, that started to feel a little overwhelming, too, but I think that it worked fine and made more sense than 3rd. However, I wanted a little more distance from my MC in this novel, and I don't think that 1st-person narration would work for it.

Maybe I'm just feeling a little bogged down by the mass of words I've written, or something. I'm trying to incorporate some passages of atmospheric description (e.g. night falling, weather changes, whatever) to interrupt MC's endless presence, but I dunno.... Any suggestions?

Thanks!

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Roughly 91% of all published novels use third person limited. Third person limited does not mean you have to stick to one character, it only means you have to stick to one character at a time. You can have fifty viewpoint characters, and still be writing in third person limited.

Jess,
I say trust your instincts, finish the novel, and find out if it works when you go back and reread it later on. There is plenty of time to fix a problem later (and from what you've written in your post, I don't think you have a problem).

With 3rd person, you CAN rotate POV characters, just not in the same scene.

I don't think, as a reader, I have a problem with following the same POV character. Many books are written that way, and they're great reads. I think it's just that you're tired of it or that you want to tell other characters' POVs too because you feel limited.

Maybe try describing less about what this character thinks or feels or sees or hears, but more about what happens around him/her (but not outside of his/her POV). Another reason why you feel bogged down may be the fact that you're using a lot of filtering (he sees, he hears, he thinks, he feels) -- that gets OLD really fast.

When you focus more on the outside world and things happening, the book may liven up with better action, more interesting plot, and the characters are more driven by what they do instead of what they think or feel. You may find more energy in your prose.

Lois McMaster Bujold is an EXPERT at delivering a fascinating 3rd limited POV--and a danged GREAT writer.

She's got a couple major series with it, and her V.P. characters are wholly addictive.

See how she uses it, then apply to your own work.

Hi,
I have been writing from third POV all along, except mine was more omniscient, so knew everything that my characters thought etc. But where it's drummed into us about show, not tell; I now write the thoughts exactly how they would think them as I weave them into the action and the dialogue. Eg:

Then- Samantha glared at Pierre and thought that he was a right Pig for the way he was treating her.

Now- Samantha glared at him. I think he's a right Pig for the way he's treating me.


Ellie

Jamesaritchie said:

Roughly 91% of all published novels use third person limited.

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Jess,

While I'm laughing at James's made-up statistics, I agree that third person limited is nowadays the most common form. The problem is that word you used, relentless. Don't be. Move in and out as it suits the story. Don't show the character's thoughts all the time, for instance. That would wear on the reader, as well as you.

Elodie-Caroline said:

Then- Samantha glared at Pierre and thought that he was a right Pig for the way he was treating her.

Now- Samantha glared at him. I think he's a right Pig for the way he's treating me.


Ellie

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The first one sounds better to me. Shifting the person doesn't change it from telling to showing. Both of these are showing, but the first makes for smoother reading.

Jess, may I recommend Elements of Fiction Writing: Characters and Viewpoint by Orson Scott Card? His discussion of levels of penetration in limited third person would probably be very helpful to you. But keep writing in the meanwhile. These things can be fixed up in revision.

If the story is captivating, the reader probably won't notice the POV. That's why great storytellers don't have to be the most technically proficient writers. The problem is that you, a writer, sees the POV details. Make your story as exciting/enticing as possible and write it to the best of your ability. Once the initial drafts are finished, use trusted beta readers to see if your writing resonates or flatulates, and consider appropriate revisions. Help is all over AW if you want it.

Also, Julie's advice is really good. Just as you want to vary sentence and paragraph length to allow the prose to flow, you may want to move between close-up and distant POVs to make the story flow. In the action-reaction game, don't always give both external and internal reactions to events. Vary that as well.

Elodie-Caroline said:

Hi,
I have been writing from third POV all along, except mine was more omniscient, so knew everything that my characters thought etc. But where it's drummed into us about show, not tell; I now write the thoughts exactly how they would think them as I weave them into the action and the dialogue. Eg:

Then- Samantha glared at Pierre and thought that he was a right Pig for the way he was treating her.

Now- Samantha glared at him. I think he's a right Pig for the way he's treating me.

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Try this: Samantha glared at him. He was a pig for treating her this way.

Or this: Samantha glared at him. He was a pig, wasn't he?

It might be a simple matter of you having end-of-novel doubts. You see the finish line (first draft) coming up and you're starting to panic just a little and second guess yourself.

I'd suggest finishing, then giving it a good hard look - or ask Betas to read it. There's nothing at all wrong with staying in one character for the entire story, but there's also nothing at all wrong with switching in chapters or scenes. I find I have to check out the other characters because I get too curious about what makes them tick

Or...

Samantha glared, and worked hard to suppress the urge to oink at him.

jess b said:

I'm hoping that someone out there can give me some advice--or just an assurance that what I'm doing is okay. Which I thought it was, when I started, but I've begun to lose confidence....

I just can't seem to think of any novels that use 3rd person limited, although I'm quite certain that I've read any number of them over the years.... Is everyone just using 1st person instead, these days?

Maybe I'm just feeling a little bogged down by the mass of words I've written, or something. I'm trying to incorporate some passages of atmospheric description (e.g. night falling, weather changes, whatever) to interrupt MC's endless presence, but I dunno.... Any suggestions?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

A novel written entirely from one 3rd person pov (heavens, I hope I remember right) is The Pilot's Wife by Anita Shreve. Katharine, the MC, narrates in 3rd the whole story. It's been made into a movie. I didn't feel suffocated (being inside Katharine's mind all the time), and I wonder now while I'm typing, why? And you have a good point. I'd better read again this novel and sharpen my "writer's" mind!

I understand well your anxiety to get away from your character for a short while. I found very comforting Rosamunde Pilcher's novels, especially The Shell Seekers, September, Winter Solstice. In general she uses multiple 3rd limited voices, but not as limited or as tight as is the practice in use currently, and even takes the liberty to play with the camera around the characters. Landscape (Cornwall, Scotland), season, weather, ocean, smells (all senses engaged) play an important role in Mrs. Pilcher's books and description, setting blends well. She doesn't mess around with pov's but gives them some leeway. Her books might not be your cup of tea, but I found them relaxing (albeit there's is drama in them) from the rat race I live, and from other action oriented thrillers I read while riding the subway. Off the topic, my opinion is that Mrs. Pilcher has been wrongly shelved under "romance" genre. Themes in her books expand beyond "love story."

September begins with two or three paragraphs of description, of how Spring descended upon that village in Scotland, with an underlined hint to the renewal the characters would eventually experience in their lives at the end of the novel. Break, then she introduces one of the main characters walking down a road. We might assume that we saw the outside world through the character's eyes, but it's not so clear, and I did like this. It's a thin line. Admit it, not a "Big Bang" beginning but clear, unpretentious, as the character is.

Like you, I don't like to be inside MC's character mind all the time -- I feel suffocated as I write. I'd rather establish myself, the writer, as an entity (omniscient style but avoiding the dreaded head-hopping) so that I can squirm out of MC's leash and dance a little around the characters, without loosing sight of them. What's the point in using 3rd if I don't have some freedom? And this is the reason why many writers slip outside their MC's minds either un/or consciously.

I pondered a lot over "she thought it was" or "she felt the warmth of the sunlight blah blah blah" I remember writing my novel in 1st and all of a sudden, without planning, I started writing a short chapter from "his" point of view (3rd) I needed to breathe!

Yes, plenty of novels are written in 1st pov nowadays, but thankfully, not all.

Anyway, that's my 2c contribution to your post. If I remember other titles in 3rd that might illustrate your point, I'll post back.

Edited: While I was typing my long post (slap myself), the discussion was already in full-flung, 18 posts, one per minute. My God, you people, are prompt and fast! I feel good.

Thank you very much Julie. It's so hard knowing 'how' to write certain things in my stories. I know exactly what I want to say, but getting it across as written is another story in itself.
With the way I had started doing it, it was from the book 'Self editing for fiction writers' by Brown and King; but to be honest, I like your first example the best, it says what 'she' thinks but from my point of view. Once again, thank you.

Ellie

Julie Worth said:

Try this: Samantha glared at him. He was a pig for treating her this way.

Or this: Samantha glared at him. He was a pig, wasn't he?

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Yes Neurofizz, that's exactly what I would have personally done; but I do try and make my characters have a little more class than I do myself

NeuroFizz said:

Or...

Samantha glared, and worked hard to suppress the urge to oink at him.

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Julie Worth said:

Jess,

While I'm laughing at James's made-up statistics, I agree that third person limited is nowadays the most common form. The problem is that word you used, relentless. Don't be. Move in and out as it suits the story. Don't show the character's thoughts all the time, for instance. That would wear on the reader, as well as you.

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That isn't my statistic at all, it's one publisher's weekly put out a few tyears ago, and in all honesty, other than first person novels, I can't remember when I last read anything other than thrid person limited. It is, far and away, the most common form of writing novels.

Now, many writers head-hop and think they're writing omniscient, but they're just writing third person with head-hopping.

Third person limioted is, far, far away, the most common form of writing, and has been for many, many years.

Look around and show me how many novels you can find that aren't third person limited.

Brickie said:

A lot of novels do that. I think Harry Potter is first person limited.

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I think you mean third-person limited. Harry doesn't tell the story, it's just narrated from the limited place of his experience. True first-person ("I did this, I saw that . . .") is by definition limited.

caw

It only gets annoying if the character keeps having the *same* thoughts and feelings rather than having them evolve in response to the situation.