When is real unrealistic in a Murder Mystery.

nganok · Jan 9, 2007

I have been writing two scripts for sometime now. One a fantasy and one a murder mystery. Ive notice in some critiques of the murder mystery I get a lot criticism for not being realistic enough or following a cliche. I find that funny since after thinking for a while back on all the great murder mysteries like 1992 up - they all had similar cliches and many were grossly unrealistic as far as police work goes. So when does focusing on being totally real with a fictional piece get out of hand? I read many scripts that seemed to be freed from this cage and they seem to be the best ones like Se7en and The Departed. I think the cliches help the audience identify with a fimiliar theme and straying from the mundane is what makes it a unique film. (As a side note: real police work is very boring and repetitive and doesn't really make for a good story if you don't spice it some.) Just my thoughts - nothing more nothing less.

Jamesaritchie · Jan 9, 2007

nganok said:
I have been writing two scripts for sometime now. One a fantasy and one a murder mystery. Ive notice in some critiques of the murder mystery I get a lot criticism for not being realistic enough or following a cliche. I find that funny since after thinking for a while back on all the great murder mysteries like 1992 up - they all had similar cliches and many were grossly unrealistic as far as police work goes. So when does focusing on being totally real with a fictional piece get out of hand? I read many scripts that seemed to be freed from this cage and they seem to be the best ones like Se7en and The Departed. I think the cliches help the audience identify with a fimiliar theme and straying from the mundane is what makes it a unique film. (As a side note: real police work is very boring and repetitive and doesn't really make for a good story if you don't spice it some.) Just my thoughts - nothing more nothing less.

Real police work is often boring, and often incredibly exciting. The trick is to write about the exciting moments, with just enough of teh boring ones thrown in to make things believable.

But it seems you are asking two questions. 1. How realistic does it have to be. 2. Is it all right to use cliches.

The answer to the first is that it most sound believable, it must sound plausible. You must make the reader/viewer believe what you write is both believable and plausible, even if it isn't. If your readers complain about your writing not being realistic, then you've failed in how you write the material.

As for cliches, sure, you can use them, but good writers try their best not to do so. Cliches are, at best, copying someone else's work, and will make readers/viewers turn away. They should. If you're going to use a cliche, then at least be creative enoguh to put a fresh twist on it.

icerose · Jan 9, 2007

Your problem now is you are dealing with the CSI generation. In 1993 they weren't dealing with an audience that had CSI at their fingertips. Thye didn't get to see the technical aspects. The audience wasn't amature CSI's themselves.

I strongly suggest watching episodes in the series. Get a handle for what they are feeding the audience, how they make the mundane interesting and exciting. Because that is your target audience right there and you are now competing with that where as before they came out you didn't have quite the bar the meet.

Vanatru · Jan 9, 2007

I think the work has be borderline either way. Nothing too fantastic, that the readers can't relate to. Nothing too silly, that those who really are in that field, won't think as being implausable.

Or at least that's how I do it.

-Bill

dpaterso · Jan 9, 2007

Spicing things up for interest's sake is desirable, but there are limits. And, things to avoid or at least try to twist somehow so they give out new juice. The maverick cop supercliché. Intimidating or assaulting suspects to extract confessions. Discharging firearms without due/legal cause, either to intimidate or to uncover hidden evidence. The haunting childhood trauma involving a dark closet and a jar of honey. The rookie detective who doesn't know jack yet somehow got his detective's badge after presumably serving in uniform for years beforehand. These can very easily add up to a general feeling of "been here before, often." And yet, so easily avoided.

-Derek

Rainy Night · Jan 9, 2007

There are elements that are cliché, but in any genre piece there are elements that viewers expect and if you don't hit those beats then the audience fails to connect with the material. I think the trick is to be creative and original within the parameters of the genre.

As far as murder mystery I still love old black and white Perry Mason reruns, there's something about those that always grab my attention and keep me stuck on the screen until the final reveal. I don't watch CSI... okay, I watched one episode, but only because my cousin played the dead guy.

jonpiper · Jan 9, 2007

You've got to see Gibson's Apocalypto to see how far the screenwriter/director may go beyond reality and still maintain the audience's attention.

After he is beaten and shot through the chest with an arrow, the protag is chased through the jungle by seven or eight well conditioned captors. Because the protag was a real person who I cared for, I was willing not to be critical.

Lindo · Jan 9, 2007

Real Life can be the kiss of life in stories about prison, street policing, warfare, sying. Because bizarre things happen that nobody will believe. And you can't sit there and convince the reader/audience that it really, honestly happened.

On the other hand, ridiculous flouting of reality are readily accepted in fiction and film.

The operative test is a tricky one: what is the general person's level of acceptance? And judging that is another of the instincts that writing requires.

blackjax29 · Jan 9, 2007

It depends.

Sometimes you need that base reality to have something to compare it to when you get your concept going. Sometimes to just leap into a world or a plot without establishing the ground rules or the world can be a wee bit jarring.

Either that or play the game of Cliche 180, that is when you do see one, do a 180 and write the opposite of it.

nganok · Jan 9, 2007

Maybe

blackjax29 said:
It depends.

Sometimes you need that base reality to have something to compare it to when you get your concept going. Sometimes to just leap into a world or a plot without establishing the ground rules or the world can be a wee bit jarring.

Either that or play the game of Cliche 180, that is when you do see one, do a 180 and write the opposite of it.

Yeah - that is I guess similar to what I'm saying. It seems with all the great films that are made, the writer/director establishes his own set of rules regardless of what's realistic or not. I mean isn't that what fiction is - a story told under the rules made by the storyteller. Crap, there are so called true stories Hollywood makes that don't follow true life completely. I've had a few recent debates with my writing group about my current screenplay. I finally just had to tell them the end of the story then they all agreed it was set up great but, without hearing the whole story they thought it was just another cliche murder mystery. Then I told them , I couldn't start the MURDER MYSTERY off with a alien landing and we left it at that.

nganok · Jan 9, 2007

dpaterso said:
The haunting childhood trauma involving a dark closet and a jar of honey. Derek

A jar of Honey ??? - what is that one from...

Anyway yeah your right about the dead on cliches. I just wandered what people in the writing community felt was enough when it comes to this subject. I like to calculate where people's opinions are swinging when it comes to realistic fiction.

nganok · Jan 9, 2007

No CSI

icerose said:
Your problem now is you are dealing with the CSI generation. In 1993 they weren't dealing with an audience that had CSI at their fingertips. Thye didn't get to see the technical aspects. The audience wasn't amature CSI's themselves.

I strongly suggest watching episodes in the series. Get a handle for what they are feeding the audience, how they make the mundane interesting and exciting. Because that is your target audience right there and you are now competing with that where as before they came out you didn't have quite the bar the meet.

I believe that the tides are shifting when it comes to that show. People are starting to understand that CSI is a bunch of bull. I even wrote a segment in my latest SP that said so. I've hated the series since day one especially since I worked in a S.Carolina forensic lab when it premiered. And actually this film doesnt target CSI people too much, its more of the X files bunch. You make a great point though.

Maryn · Jan 10, 2007

icerose, I'm having trouble finding it online, but I've got a copy of a Boston Globe article from 2003 with the subhead

TV'S WHODUNIT EFFECT POLICE DRAMAS ARE HAVING AN UNEXPECTED
IMPACT IN THE REAL WORLD: THE PUBLIC THINKS EVERY CRIME CAN BE SOLVED, AND SOLVED NOW – JUST LIKE ON TELEVISION

The article is lengthy and notes the negative impact of C.S.I. and similar forensics shows. Juries have come to expect unarguable evidence based on prints, trace, and DNA, and increasingly refuse to convict if labs can't produce it. CSI-style labs don't exist at city level, since cities can't afford to fund them.

If you'd like to read more, maybe you'll find it searching for the terms "CSI Effect" paired with "junk science," both of which are used by police and lawyers frustrated by the show's impact.

Maryn, who'll email you a copy if you want to see it

Lindo · Jan 10, 2007

Mostly, it comes down to the writer´s ability to say it authoritative, and thus get away with murder. A lot of stuff we see and read is just plain made up, but if it gets put across, it works.
A classic is in ¨Blade Runner", then the android Roy discusses his genetic problems with his "maker". According to the writer, none of it makes any sense at all, but we buy it completely.

Celia Cyanide · Jan 10, 2007

Maryn, I read a really interesting article on that, as well. It was about the "CSI effect" amd juries. Not good.

nielsty · Jan 10, 2007

nganok said:
I've had a few recent debates with my writing group about my current screenplay. I finally just had to tell them the end of the story then they all agreed it was set up great but, without hearing the whole story they thought it was just another cliche murder mystery. Then I told them , I couldn't start the MURDER MYSTERY off with a alien landing and we left it at that.

Just remember that a story is more than its end. If people think the rest of the story is cliche they won't make it to the end no matter how great it will be as a setup.

Would a Danielle Steele film be any better if the Heroine didn't get the handsome doctor/Fabio in the end...?

I know it's far out and your story is probably not THAT cliche, but still...

scripter1 · Jan 10, 2007

Poor little cliche.

Not bad, just misunderstood.

Cliches exist for a reason.
They give us a comfortable feeling of familiarity.
Make us feel like we know as much as the storyteller.

And they are something that we've come to expect in certain types of films and to many audience members have become the truth.

The thing with cliches is understanding how they work (or didn't work) in thier stories. What did the cliche achieve? How was the audience SUPPOSED to react to it?

There are many ways to turn a cliche on its head.
Ask What if?
What if - X type character performed the action instead of the "typical" hero/villian?
What if - the characters were cliche but the action is different?
What if - (depending on your genre and tone) you do a parody of the cliche?
What if - there is something more involved in the cliche that brings out a strong theme, character arc, etc?
(granted, that should be there ALL READY, but maybe it's missing in that one scene so the cliche comes off bad?)

I put cliches in the same circumstance as original stories.
There are no new scenes, only UNIQUE ways to set out the details.

nganok · Jan 10, 2007

Yep

Maryn said:
icerose, I'm having trouble finding it online, but I've got a copy of a Boston Globe article from 2003 with the subhead

TV'S WHODUNIT EFFECT POLICE DRAMAS ARE HAVING AN UNEXPECTED
IMPACT IN THE REAL WORLD: THE PUBLIC THINKS EVERY CRIME CAN BE SOLVED, AND SOLVED NOW – JUST LIKE ON TELEVISION

The article is lengthy and notes the negative impact of C.S.I. and similar forensics shows. Juries have come to expect unarguable evidence based on prints, trace, and DNA, and increasingly refuse to convict if labs can't produce it. CSI-style labs don't exist at city level, since cities can't afford to fund them.

If you'd like to read more, maybe you'll find it searching for the terms "CSI Effect" paired with "junk science," both of which are used by police and lawyers frustrated by the show's impact.

Maryn, who'll email you a copy if you want to see it

Yeah I read that article. It was part of a law enforcement bulletin. Its funny sometimes people even get caught becuase they try to cover up something like a plot they saw on the show while forgetting obvious things like maybe having an alibi. lol

English Dave · Jan 10, 2007

nganok said:
Yeah - that is I guess similar to what I'm saying. It seems with all the great films that are made, the writer/director establishes his own set of rules regardless of what's realistic or not. I mean isn't that what fiction is - a story told under the rules made by the storyteller. Crap, there are so called true stories Hollywood makes that don't follow true life completely. I've had a few recent debates with my writing group about my current screenplay. I finally just had to tell them the end of the story then they all agreed it was set up great but, without hearing the whole story they thought it was just another cliche murder mystery. Then I told them , I couldn't start the MURDER MYSTERY off with a alien landing and we left it at that.

I quite agree. Murder mysteries are best not started with an Alien landing.
Apart from the Sign of Four.

Die you four fingered barstewards!

Lindo · Jan 11, 2007

I quite agree. Murder mysteries are best not started with an Alien landing.
Why not? Might be the best place to start:
If that's your interest
if you just got a great idea about a new genre-blending story
If everything else is so done to death you're sick of it
If you figure that the reviewers will notice it more than the standard stuff
etc

whistlelock · Jan 11, 2007

You know, I was watching a documentary on Chuck Jones and he said, "don't make it real, make it believable."

Which, I think, is just really helpful advice in any sort of writing. Murder Mystery or not.

When is real unrealistic in a Murder Mystery.

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