My Character Not Speak Good

AnneMarble · Jan 7, 2007

I'm rewriting a fantasy novel about a barbarian, Gorok, who is sentenced to a life term in a prison where heretical mages (in other words, wizards, but I like the word "mage" better) are imprisoned. (It's done because the authorities hope the mages will take revenge on Gorok.)

Most of the mages in the prison, as well as the guards, are from one kingdom (Alnaar). But Gorok is from a country to the north (Ronx). He hasn't been in Alnaar for long, so his Alnaarn is bad. This is reflected in his awkward, broken speech. (For example, "You say they can use no spells. They not warriors, they need spells to kill.") I also change his speech patterns a little bit as the story unfolds and he becomes a little more comfortable with Alnaarn. (Also, when he talks with the other MC, who knows his language, he speaks in his normal voice. He also converses with the MC in the MC's own language, Cavan, which is similar to Ronxian.)

This is an important part of the novel. Because of the way Gorok talks, many of the mages (and guards) assume he's an idiot. Some mock his way of speech. Later, the other MC, who knows Gorok is smart, teaches Gorok to read (in Cavan). So I want to keep this.

But... I'm worried that some people might look at Gorok's speech and think there was something wrong -- think he really was stupid or even think I'd made errors in his dialogue. (Particularly people who might read a page at random, without realizing why he speaks that way, who people who aren't paying much attention.

) Am I crazy for worrying about this? After all, I know that most readers will be smart enough to figure it out. (You don't become a reader if you can't figure stuff out.)

Also, even if I try not to worry about that, what about readers who figure it out and yet are annoyed by it? I don't want to resort to "In broken Alnaarn, Gorok said something that came out to "Induitably, the weather is much damper over here..." only sounded more, well, broken.

Should I not worry about them? Or find some other way to handle the language issues? Or should Gorok know more Alnaarn when he first ends up in the prison but maybe still have a bit of an accent?

Carmy · Jan 7, 2007

I don't think you need to worry too much. If his actions and thoughts show he is intelligent I think readers would accept his broken 'Engish'.

katiemac · Jan 7, 2007

I think as long as you set up the language barrier well enough in the initial conversation, the readers won't think your character isn't smart. Remember, too, that his intelligence will be measured by his actions and the decisions he makes. We usually give main characters the benefit of the doubt, anyway.

As for fly-by readers, it probably wouldn't affect them greatly either way. It may intrigue them (what's up with this guy?) to start from the beginning.

I'd check out some books that have similiar problems with language. Flowers for Algernon immediately comes to mind.

PeeDee · Jan 7, 2007

Just make sure you actually have him speaking brokenly and not just removing a word here or there. But either way, I think if you're making it clear that this is a language barrier he's coming through, it'll be fine.

AnneMarble · Jan 7, 2007

katiemac said:
I think as long as you set up the language barrier well enough in the initial conversation, the readers won't think your character isn't smart. Remember, too, that his intelligence will be measured by his actions and the decisions he makes. We usually give main characters the benefit of the doubt, anyway.

Hmm, good point.

There is something incredibly unwise he does later in the chapter. But I think readers will recognize that it came out of anger rather than stupidity. The POV is strict third person limited (at least I hope it is!), so readers will know his thoughts can be quite deep. Except when he thinks about sex. And mages. And sex with mages.

katiemac said:
As for fly-by readers, it probably wouldn't affect them greatly either way. It may intrigue them (what's up with this guy?) to start from the beginning.

I'd check out some books that have similiar problems with language. Flowers for Algernon immediately comes to mind.

Another good point. I keep meaning to read that one... Of course, I'm no Daniel Keyes.

I'd give Gorok a pet mouse, but his pet snowcat would eat it.

Birol · Jan 7, 2007

You might want to study how people actually learn language. Nouns and verbs first, followed by adjectives and adverbs. Perhaps you could show his thoughts, expressing his frustration at being unable to communicate better with those around him?

cynicalkane · Jan 7, 2007

it might be interesting to figure out some aspects of ronx-ian grammar and syntax and imagine how this will translate to him attempting to speak in "alnaarn", i.e., english. unless ronxian is like baby-talk, i think it's unlikely that gorok would say something like "they not warriors" in either language.

chinese speakers of english have trouble with plurals and verb conjugation. english speakers of german tend to put verbs in the wrong place, as german has strange rules on where verbs go. this is my experience, anwyay. think of things like that. make up some idioms in ronxian that reflect their way of thought, and have gorok try and translate them. (george rr martin is very good at this. there's an excellent character who calls his wife "moon of my life" and "woman wife" as casually as if this was a normal thing to call a woman. in fact, i don't remember him using any other terms besides these two...)

Elektra · Jan 8, 2007

What the above poster said.

Another option might be to have him use poor word choices--also, if he has no one to teach him, and is only picking things up as he goes along, he'll probably learn the more demonstative things first (like come, go, stop, and the like).

Willowmound · Jan 8, 2007

AnneMarble said:
But Gorok is from a country to the north (Ronx).

I come from a country to the north (Norway).

In Norway, the word ronk means 'jack off'.

AnneMarble said:
Except when he thinks about sex.

Just thought I'd throw that out there...

Jamesaritchie · Jan 8, 2007

Speaking

I think it's all in teh execution. You are wriitng in English, no matter what "language" the character is supposed to be using, so if it reads poorly in English, then it reads poorly.

"They not warriors, they need spells to kill." This sounds like Tarzan before he gained an education, or liek an ignorant barbarian.

You do need to worry about how he speaks, but I don't think this is the way to go about it.

AnneMarble · Jan 8, 2007

PeeDee said:
Just make sure you actually have him speaking brokenly and not just removing a word here or there. But either way, I think if you're making it clear that this is a language barrier he's coming through, it'll be fine.

I sure hope I did that.

IIRC I gave him troubles with the infinitive (his language doesn't have an infinitive). He also didn't use contractions (except in his native language or in Cavan), and didn't always use articles. In the rewrite, I'll try something more specific. Maybe I'll try to learn a language and figure out what I get wrong, or delve more closely into the differences between, say, Icelandic and English.

AnneMarble · Jan 8, 2007

Willowmound said:
I come from a country to the north (Norway).

In Norway, the word ronk means 'jack off'.

That might be appropriate for this book.

Willowmound said:
Just thought I'd throw that out there...

Thanks.

Someone pointed out that the name "Gorok" means "stupid" in Russia, but no one else has been able to confirm this. Maybe it's in a different dialect. But I figured that if I avoided names that meant something else in another language, I'd go insane.

AnneMarble · Jan 8, 2007

Jamesaritchie said:
I think it's all in teh execution. You are wriitng in English, no matter what "language" the character is supposed to be using, so if it reads poorly in English, then it reads poorly.

"They not warriors, they need spells to kill." This sounds like Tarzan before he gained an education, or liek an ignorant barbarian.

And ironically, poor Tarzan was more educated than he looked. At least in the books. He could speak the ape language, of course, and he had taught himself how to read English from books left behind by his parents. He learned French within a short period of time, and then learned English after this. I should go back to the Tarzan books and see what Burroughs did.

Jamesaritchie said:
You do need to worry about how he speaks, but I don't think this is the way to go about it.

Ooh, ooh, maybe I should have him speak slowly and formally, always in the present tense (at least at first). Because as far as I remember from most language classes, we learned present tense first, and we learned the correct grammar before we learned how real people speak the language. (Not that he was taking Alaarn lessons, as far as I know, but it's a start...

)

PeeDee · Jan 8, 2007

The Tarzan of the "me tarzan, you Jane" variety was I think more a creature of the movies than Burrough's books.

I would really suggest something less mechanical, Anne, then just removing his contractions and infinitives. It needs to be organic, if you're going to do it, and it still needs to be readable.

I wrote a short story a while back, a Western story, in which the narrator is a Mexican who does speak English, but not as fluently or comfortably as Spanish. The story is in English, just him talking. He spoke broken English, of a sort, in that sometimes he was overly precise and implicite (because he didn't always know how to imply something, or use a word that would allude to something) and sometimes he's vauge and unclear, and sometimes he's stiff, and sometimes he leaves words out.

I did this without too much trouble, because I've lived around Mexicans who speak English as a second language all my life. At the present, I have a large Hatian and Somalian community, who also speak very broken English (those rare ones who actually learn English anyway). They are coming at English from different languages altogether than Spanish, but they still break their English in a similar stiff way.

(the movie "Borat" is a wonderful example of how to break your English, as well as being the funniest thing since, well, the Ali G show.)

Stew21 · Jan 8, 2007

I think characters with poor language skills can still be quite intelligent as long as the reader is set up to know that is the case.
I read a book called "The Ha-Ha" where the character was mute. No speech outside of grumbles and mumbles, but it was never a question of his intelligence, and very well written. His intention and internal dialogue made it very clear. As well, his actions made it clear that he was intelligent.

The main thing would be not to make his language so poor as to irritate your readers. the meaning has to be clear. Be sure his internal dialogue and thoughts indicate his intentions so they don't have to struggle through the dialogue too much as the sole source of his meaning.

KingM · Jan 8, 2007

I sure hope I did that. IIRC I gave him troubles with the infinitive (his language doesn't have an infinitive).

AFAIK, all languages have an infinitive, meaning a basic form of the verb from which other forms are derived. Not all languages have an article (Russian), or the same tenses. Managing genders and pronouns can also be difficult.

One thing to keep in mind is that if he hasn't spoken the language for a long time then he won't be able to understand normal conversation at first, especially that between two other people. However, if he was once fluent, he will quickly return to that level after a bit of contact. He also won't make those basic grammar errors, rather he will stumble over his words and be endlessly asking people to repeat things.

FWIW, I speak Spanish and French and some Russian.

katiemac · Jan 8, 2007

Another book to check out: Everything is Illuminated. It's clear from the second sentence the narrator isn't a native speaker. The way Safran Foer uses the English language to convey this ... really impressive. Not to mention funny as hell.

From the first page:

I have a miniature brother who dubs me Alli. I do not dig this name very much, but I dig him very much, so OK, I permit him to dub me Alli. As for his name, it is Little Igor, but father dubs him Clumsy One, because he is always promenading into things. It was only four days previous that he made is eye blue from mismanagement with a brick wall.

benbradley · Jan 8, 2007

First a disclaimer, I'm far from a language expert, I'm vaguely remembering high school Latin, the only non-English language I've learned, where word order is not important or at least less important than in English, but the convention is the verb goes at the end of the sentence. This is also reminiscent of a certain movie character, who swapped words and phrases around within sentences, named Yoda (who was thought of as anything but an idiot), as in:

"Warriors not they are, spells they need to kill."

...though you may not want to use phraseology that specifically reminds people of Yoda. Also the last statement appears to say "they need to kill spells" rather than "they need to use spells to kill."

This may not be much help, but maybe it gives you an idea you can use.

AnneMarble · Jan 8, 2007

benbradley said:
This may not be much help, but maybe it gives you an idea you can use.

Ooh, it reminds me of a technique Joan Vinge used in The Snow Queen (and in the sequels); I'm pretty sure the first book predated Yoda, too. It looked so cool when she did it, and the characters didn't sound like Yoda at all.

I don't know why it sounded so different when she did it -- maybe the sentences more complicated were.

(Might be time for yet another reread.)

Of course, if I tried something like that, I'd probably have poor Gorok saying "Warriors they need to kill... Spells they need to kill warriors... No, wait. Spells to warriors kill..." And finally, he'd stand there flapping his lip with his finger for the rest of the novel.

arainsb123 · Jan 8, 2007

I love working with language, but it _is_ tricky, because everything has to be translated into English. I'm tackling that problem myself: how do I handle characters talking in multiple languages, different names for the same thing in different languages, etc. It's a lot of fun!

Chasing the Horizon · Jan 8, 2007

I have multiple made-up languages being spoken in my books as well. All of the characters speak Western Standard, which I imply is comparable to English, but for some it is not their first language. I have one character who likes to drop in words from her native tongue from time to time. I overcame the problem of the occasional non-english word by the fact that some of my characters don't speak her language and usually ask her to translate. We quickly discover she uses the words because they do not have an exact English translation, but take whole sentences to explain, because they deal with concepts that are not from our culture and thus do not have a word.

Lots of my characters have accents, either because they are not speaking their native language or because they were raised in a place that has a distinct accent. Each one is distinct and different, even if they come from the same place. I write out the accents (t' instead of to) and have developed a sense for the rhythm of them. Don't use a set formula for missing words or mispronounced words. Just because someone says ye instead of you frequently doesn't mean he says it that way every single time.

I find it very annoying when someone says a character has an accent or speaks the language poorly, but then writes the dialog in proper english. It prevents me from hearing the characters voice in my head. I'd rather have to read the characters dialog twice than have it sound like the narrater speaking.

Shadow_Ferret · Jan 8, 2007

PeeDee said:
The Tarzan of the "me tarzan, you Jane" variety was I think more a creature of the movies than Burrough's books.

Johnny Weismueller portrayed Tarzan as a dope. I doubt that ERB ever was pleased with those performances.

I'd suggest maybe reading some original Robert E. Howard stories about Conan. He too was a barbarian from the north but I don't believe he ever spoke in broken English. Even so, many aristocrats, royalty, wizards and such regarded him as an uneducated barbarian.

AnneMarble · Jan 8, 2007

Shadow_Ferret said:
I'd suggest maybe reading some original Robert E. Howard stories about Conan. He too was a barbarian from the north but I don't believe he ever spoke in broken English. Even so, many aristocrats, royalty, wizards and such regarded him as an uneducated barbarian.

Ooh, thank you!
:Hail:

I should have thought of REH and Conan. Especially as some people think my story is sort of "Conan slash."
Yeah, I know...
:Wha:

Gabriele · Jan 8, 2007

Anne, just run Gorok's lines through Bablefish into Icelandic or German and back, and use the result.

I'm dealing with the problem a lot, in all my novels there are characters who speak languages not their own in various degrees of fluency. In the beginning, I used a lot more subtle 'mistakes' ("the treaty worked out good") in their dialogue, but I didn't want it to look like I got it wrong, always a danger since English isn't my native language, either.

So I now mostly mention accents or have native speakers notice the other man doesn't speak fluently*, and only in a few cases give characters speech patterns that show they don't speak a language well.

* Like this:
Irminric turned to Veranius. "Tell me, Quintus Aemilius, who is the man in the blue cloak riding beside Germanicus? He looks like from our tribes." He spoke Latin now, ignoring Lentulus who sneered at a phrase he seemed to have gotten wrong.

Examples for speech patterns:

Gisco the Balearic slinger, a Roman auxiliary soldier:
"It is me, Gisco, the slinger. I scouted. There is a clearing fifty steps to ahead. More light."
He speaks a very simple Latin with short sentences. His own language is a Semitic one, so the differences between that and Latin are pretty distinct. He has a grasp on the language but is far from fluent.

Rekahari, a member of the Marcomannic (a Germanic tribe) upper class:
"That man is no slave," Lentulus said.
"No." Rekahari twisted in Lentulus' grip and looked up to the Roman. "I am not. I am as freeborn a man as you are," he said in an accented Latin.
Germanic and Latin are both Indoeuropean languages, so he's learned Latin rather well but feels uneasy speaking it, and thus is hyper-correct.

Sometimes, auto-correct can work.

"We have captivated ... captured one of Arminius' men."

"Yes, I will be able to ride." Kjartan's speech was tainted with a slight accent, "if you can get me a gangari, ... a palfrey, that is. My stallion is too spirited."
Kjartan is wounded and exhausted, and his native Norse slips into the Anglonorman he speaks.

You can also play with language barriers in subtle ways.

The Norseman lost his balance and fell, dropping his sword. Before he could grasp for it, Alastair's boot pressed down on his wrist, his sword pointed at the man's throat. "Surrender."
The man gaped at him, eyes wide open.
Alastair repeated the question in the Norse tongue, "give yourself prisoner."
The language Alastair first speaks is Gaelic.

Hope this helps.

AnneMarble · Jan 8, 2007

Gabriele said:
Anne, just run Gorok's lines through Bablefish into Icelandic or German and back, and use the result.

"They say that they cannot use to spell. But they are not krieger. They need spell, if they are to kill me."

What's Icelandic for "The mind boggles?"

Gabriele said:
I'm dealing with the problem a lot, in all my novels there are characters who speak languages not their own in various degrees of fluency.

I like your examples better.

My Character Not Speak Good

Nefarious Ghost Fan

Five by Five

Where's my tea, please...?

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Around and About

Don't Call Me Sweetheart

Lightly salted

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Nefarious Ghost Fan

Nefarious Ghost Fan

Where's my tea, please...?

Five by Five

It's a doggy dog world

Nefarious Ghost Fan

Learning!

Blowing in the Wind

Court Jester

Nefarious Ghost Fan

Nefarious Ghost Fan