Strengths, weaknesses and what you should write

drybonesreborn · Jan 6, 2007

I had this bad critque from a writing community (Deviantart) about my work sounding like a comic book. (Haven't read one in years. Any hints I got were on fanfiction.) I don't know a comic book style, so how would I pick something up that I never learned to write?

I've read "James Bond" books, and they have action techniques.

If I'm using techniques in wrong story genres, is this a common mistake? How can I hone down what I should write in? Is there a writting test to see what area of writting you'd be best to write in?

I want to be skilled in science fiction (thriller, supernatual and other.)

And also, if this person found no positive in my work, does it mean it sucks, even if I did have a good plot?

Who's opinion counts? A reader's? A commenter's? An editors? If all three, how will I please everyone, if you can't in real life with people?

Please forgive me for sucking at grammer. *sigh* I do read a lot, I read for school, watch movies, read fanficion and other stuff. I aslo draw.

Willowmound · Jan 6, 2007

I don't know if this is what your critters meant, but for me to label something 'comic book', the story would have to be both simplistic and unrealistic (Dr. Evil holds the earth to ransom with a big orbital ray gun), and have two-dimensional characters.

I've read actual comics that commit neither of these offences, but that's beside the point.

Do you think this could be what your critters meant?

Rolling Thunder · Jan 6, 2007

Peruse the Science Fiction/Fantasy forum. Start discussions, ask questions. Submit samples to SYW and be prepared to accept the worst.

Learning is hard. Writing is harder. There are plenty of people here willing to help you along the path to bettering your work.

Carrie in PA · Jan 6, 2007

Listen to Rllg. Post some work in SYW. You'll get a lot of honest feedback. If you tell them to be gentle, they will - but they'll still be honest.

Don't let one person's opinion discourage you. It's possible your writing needs a lot of work. It's also possible this person is just rude and probably shouldn't be critting.

If you want to be skilled in SF, read a lot of it. Write a lot of it. You'll improve with time and effort.

Also, I see you're new around these parts! Welcome!!!

johnzakour · Jan 6, 2007

drybonesreborn said:
I had this bad critque from a writing community (Deviantart) about my work sounding like a comic book. (Haven't read one in years. Any hints I got were on fanfiction.) I don't know a comic book style, so how would I pick something up that I never learned to write?

I take being called comic book as a compliment. I guess it depends what you want to write.

drybonesreborn said:
I want to be skilled in science fiction (thriller, supernatual and other.)

And also, if this person found no positive in my work, does it mean it sucks, even if I did have a good plot?

No of course not. Now if many different people have nothing positive to say about your work then it's time to rethink and rewrite. (Especially if they are your friends. I always say, positive reviews from friends don't mean much, but negative one mean a lot.)

drybonesreborn said:
Who's opinion counts? A reader's? A commenter's? An editors? If all three, how will I please everyone, if you can't in real life with people?

All three count. To me editors count the most as they are the ones who actually buy your stories and nobody else will get to read them if an editor doesn't buy them.

Writing is like anything else, the more you do it the better you get at it. Still not everybody is meant to be a professional writer we all have our limits.

imagegod · Jan 6, 2007

drybonesreborn said:
Who's opinion counts? A reader's? A commenter's? An editors? If all three, how will I please everyone, if you can't in real life with people?

Depends how you define 'count'...an agent's opinion counts, but only to the degree that you want or need that particular agent.

Ultimately, an artist learns to seek their own counsel, internalizing the opinion-making process, allowing that individual to differentiate between greater and lesser artistic forms. At which point, your opinion counts most.

But this learning process takes much time and effort.

drybonesreborn · Jan 6, 2007

Willowmound said:
I don't know if this is what your critters meant, but for me to label something 'comic book', the story would have to be both simplistic and unrealistic (Dr. Evil holds the earth to ransom with a big orbital ray gun), and have two-dimensional characters.

I've read actual comics that commit neither of these offences, but that's beside the point.

Do you think this could be what your critters meant?

Not sure. Mabye because I jumped to things quickly. It was mentioned my sentences are short, and that's what comics are like.

Well, it was for a contest. I had to keep them short. I had to cut stuff down.

Silver King · Jan 6, 2007

drybonesreborn said:
And also, if this person found no positive in my work, does it mean it sucks, even if I did have a good plot?

Who's opinion counts?

Maybe your writing does suck. Most likely, it doesn't. You shouldn't rely on any one person's opinion to begin with.

My dad used to say, "Opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got one."

If you don't believe him, spend some time in the TIO forum.

The point is, don't stake your writing claims on what some people think is best. Develop your talents based on what feels right for you, at least for now, and go from there.

drybonesreborn · Jan 6, 2007

imagegod said:
Depends how you define 'count'...an agent's opinion counts, but only to the degree that you want or need that particular agent.

Ultimately, an artist learns to seek their own counsel, internalizing the opinion-making process, allowing that individual to differentiate between greater and lesser artistic forms. At which point, your opinion counts most.

But this learning process takes much time and effort.

Thanks for all the support!

gp101 · Jan 6, 2007

If you're sweating just one reader's opinion, then stop it right now. Granted, there are a handful of critters on these boards whose opinion I admire greatly, one opinion (especially from a fellow unpubbed writer) shouldn't throw you into crisis mode. If you were to get the same feedback from several readers, then they might be onto something.

As for your work sounding like a comic book: assuming your critter was correct, maybe it's the tone and voice of your story that brings out that particular comparison, and not necessarily the plot. Are any (or most) of your characters a little on the cartoonish side? Do they have super powers (or abnormalities they use as super powers)? Do they all have a macho line of dialogue when facing a mortal situation? Most importantly, is the dialogue always heroic, or less than believable for a heigtened point of action?

I don't know the generalities, if there are any, for a comic book plot. So if plot is your problem, you'd have to be lucky and find someone on these boards who is extremely intimate with those details, or you'll have to read many, many comics, study them, and see what makes them tick. And if your story's plot does follow a comic's pattern, that may not necessarily be a bad thing if you find a market open to them.

Good luck.

drybonesreborn · Jan 6, 2007

gp101 said:
If you're sweating just one reader's opinion, then stop it right now. Granted, there are a handful of critters on these boards whose opinion I admire greatly, one opinion (especially from a fellow unpubbed writer) shouldn't throw you into crisis mode. If you were to get the same feedback from several readers, then they might be onto something.

As for your work sounding like a comic book: assuming your critter was correct, maybe it's the tone and voice of your story that brings out that particular comparison, and not necessarily the plot. Are any (or most) of your characters a little on the cartoonish side? Do they have super powers (or abnormalities they use as super powers)? Do they all have a macho line of dialogue when facing a mortal situation? Most importantly, is the dialogue always heroic, or less than believable for a heigtened point of action?

I don't know the generalities, if there are any, for a comic book plot. So if plot is your problem, you'd have to be lucky and find someone on these boards who is extremely intimate with those details, or you'll have to read many, many comics, study them, and see what makes them tick. And if your story's plot does follow a comic's pattern, that may not necessarily be a bad thing if you find a market open to them.

Good luck.

Well, it was more of an Urban Legend idea. I wanted to show it from one person's view. The reader is taken to looking through the trees with the main character, and seeing the surrondings, and wondeing if this has to do with 'tales' of monsters.

What is the "TIO" thread by the way, sorry off topic.

This was my first attempt at a thriller. I'd read more, but most thrillers swear, and it kills the mood reading every 'f' or 'h' word.

I tried Frank Peretti's "Hang Man's Curse" but, it wasn't scary enough for me. Maybe "House" would be suited toward me, an adult. (Hard to believe.)

Thanks for the advice. I'd love to post it on this forum. I ran into time constraints and it got choppy, and 'cartoon' like becuase I had to chop stuff out for word limit.

blacbird · Jan 6, 2007

imagegod said:
Depends how you define 'count'...an agent's opinion counts, but only to the degree that you want or need that particular agent.

Ultimately, an artist learns to seek their own counsel, internalizing the opinion-making process, allowing that individual to differentiate between greater and lesser artistic forms. At which point, your opinion counts most.

Only if you have no desire to have anyone else read your writing.

caw

J.S Greer · Jan 7, 2007

blacbird said:
Only if you have no desire to have anyone else read your writing.

caw

Very true. There must be a balance or it will be you and your close friends who revel over your wonderful work, and no one else.

And Drybone...post a piece of your work in the Show your work forum. You will get plenty of feedback that way.

Linda Adams · Jan 7, 2007

Only one critter? It's entirely possible that person doesn't like the type of book you're writing. I've occasionally run across comments where it's obvious the person doesn't read the genre. In my critique group, there's one guy who can't get over the fact the story is about the Elixir of Life. Every time we end up on plate, his comments are, "Are you sure you can't get rid of it?" But if he read thrillers, he'd know that at least two books deal with exactly that.

I'd read more, but most thrillers swear, and it kills the mood reading every 'f' or 'h' word.

You honestly do need to read more thrillers to understand them better. The genre is hard to understand and muddied by the crime subgenre which doesn't follow the conventions of the rest of the genre. Most of the profanity is in the crime ones. If you look at authors like Clive Cussler, Robin Cook, Preston/Child, and Vince Flynn, you won't find profanity a problem.

Maryn · Jan 7, 2007

I second Linda Adams on this. I believe every genre writer needs to be well-read in that genre. All it offers may not be to your liking, but it's what readers are buying, and you need to know that to compete. You do not need to make your work just like the competition, but you should know what you're competing against.

(Linda, I couldn't stand a critique group that didn't read the genre I wrote. I'm not sure I'd get much out of it besides heartburn.)

Maryn, fortunate to have good betas

JanDarby · Jan 7, 2007

Every writer has strengths and weaknesses. The trick -- the art -- is to discover which are yours, and then lean on your strengths and work on your weaknesses. The "comic book" comment suggests you may have a strength in plotting -- you can send your character through all sorts of travails (lotsa' conflict, and conflict is good) -- and you need to work on characterization.

If that's the case, you can rest a little easy when coming up with your plots, but then slow down and really concentrate on your characterization. Study characterization, watch people to see what they do that you can use in your stories, etc.

For me, I tend to find dialogue easy, but descriptions are my weakness. I can zip along for page after page of dialogue, but it will take me an hour to figure out how to describe the room where the characters are talking. I know that, though, so my first drafts have tons of dialogue and virtually no description, and in the first revision, I kind of skim over the dialogue and focus on writing the descriptions. And then, of course, I revise some more for my other weaknesses, but the point is -- you don't have to have all the skills naturally, and you can work on the skills that don't come naturally.

Oh, and if it makes you feel any better, Bob Mayer, who's been supporting himself as a writer for a couple decades now, and at least some of his books are bestsellers, had his first publised book described in a review as having characters straight out of a comic book, and, by learning from that critique, he was able to improve his writing, and he sold the next book and the next one and the next one ....

JD

Alex Bravo · Jan 7, 2007

I would think you wouldn't want to limit yourself to one genre, readingwise. There is so much you can learn from others and then maybe figure out how to incorporate the stuff you liked in another genre into your genre. If you just read one genre, and write like everyone else, there's a greater chance you'll produce a work that's just like everyone else. I know there are some that want to do just that, but then you're having to fight with everyone else because the work doesn't stand out. I read that the movie Alien stood out because of the eating scene where the alien burst from the chest. At the time, that was something new.

How about this. The way I look at writing is this way: "The last thing the world needs is another book, unless, of course, it offers something fresh." So I constantly ask myself, is my book bringing something fresh? My work is young adult fantasy but I've taken things from romance, action, historical, thrillers and even horror. I try to read in all genres and sometimes will say, wow, that really worked. Is there anyway I can do something similar in my work?

If you can pull it off, then your work will stand out...

willietheshakes · Jan 7, 2007

Silver King said:
My dad used to say, "Opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got one."

"... and they all stink." - my dad.

drybonesreborn · Jan 7, 2007

Linda Adams said:
Only one critter? It's entirely possible that person doesn't like the type of book you're writing. I've occasionally run across comments where it's obvious the person doesn't read the genre. In my critique group, there's one guy who can't get over the fact the story is about the Elixir of Life. Every time we end up on plate, his comments are, "Are you sure you can't get rid of it?" But if he read thrillers, he'd know that at least two books deal with exactly that.

You honestly do need to read more thrillers to understand them better. The genre is hard to understand and muddied by the crime subgenre which doesn't follow the conventions of the rest of the genre. Most of the profanity is in the crime ones. If you look at authors like Clive Cussler, Robin Cook, Preston/Child, and Vince Flynn, you won't find profanity a problem.

I wanted to read, um.. that one by that Patterson guy, about the girls with wings, and it starts with within a few pages of annoying swear words. Granted it doesn't hurt to call somone a 'son of a'---'. Doesn't swearing get a bit 'cliched'. I do. I think most editors look over this.

Robin Cook, a male or female author of what book? I heard that name before.

Any more, let me know. I love scifi-thrillers.

drybonesreborn · Jan 7, 2007

JanDarby said:
Every writer has strengths and weaknesses. The trick -- the art -- is to discover which are yours, and then lean on your strengths and work on your weaknesses. The "comic book" comment suggests you may have a strength in plotting -- you can send your character through all sorts of travails (lotsa' conflict, and conflict is good) -- and you need to work on characterization.

If that's the case, you can rest a little easy when coming up with your plots, but then slow down and really concentrate on your characterization. Study characterization, watch people to see what they do that you can use in your stories, etc.

For me, I tend to find dialogue easy, but descriptions are my weakness. I can zip along for page after page of dialogue, but it will take me an hour to figure out how to describe the room where the characters are talking. I know that, though, so my first drafts have tons of dialogue and virtually no description, and in the first revision, I kind of skim over the dialogue and focus on writing the descriptions. And then, of course, I revise some more for my other weaknesses, but the point is -- you don't have to have all the skills naturally, and you can work on the skills that don't come naturally.

Oh, and if it makes you feel any better, Bob Mayer, who's been supporting himself as a writer for a couple decades now, and at least some of his books are bestsellers, had his first publised book described in a review as having characters straight out of a comic book, and, by learning from that critique, he was able to improve his writing, and he sold the next book and the next one and the next one ....

JD

Really? I do read in all kinds of genres. I read "Harlequins". The one I had is like some 'zorro' like book. I am also reading "Into The Deep" by Coleen Coble. I'm not really into her adding so many characters off the bad. I find that turn off, especially in fantasy. "Sir Elder the great, blah, of the blah, of the blah..."

Howeever, her work isn't that bad.

This person's work I heard is so 'dry'. It's too edited, to the point that the life is smothered by the 'correctness' of everything.

"Grammatically correct Amy enters the room......"

drybonesreborn · Jan 7, 2007

willietheshakes said:
"... and they all stink." - my dad.

Lol.

Linda Adams · Jan 7, 2007

Maryn said:
(Linda, I couldn't stand a critique group that didn't read the genre I wrote. I'm not sure I'd get much out of it besides heartburn.)

Maryn, fortunate to have good betas

We're actually a mystery/suspense/thriller group. What I've been finding is that people get enamored of an idea, start writing in a genre that seems to fit it, and don't really understand what they're writing. To give you an idea of how bad it is, one guy is writing a literary mystery. Because of a small supernatural scene that occurs in it, he thinks it's a fantasy. This, by the way, is the same guy who can't deal with the Elixir of Life. * sigh *

Linda Adams · Jan 7, 2007

drybonesreborn said:
Robin Cook, a male or female author of what book? I heard that name before.

Any more, let me know. I love scifi-thrillers.

Robin Cook a male doctor who wrote Coma, which turned into a blockbuster and was made into a movie many years ago. He's been called the Master of the Medical Thriller. He's still a popular author.

Here are some more thriller authors (no guarantees on if they have profanity of not):

http://www.hackman-adams.com/articles/subgenres.htm

http://www.bookreporter.com/suspense_thriller/index.asp

And subscribe to the International Thriller Writer's newsletter. You'll get an email newsletter with the latest releases in it. http://www.thrillerwriters.org

Linda Adams · Jan 7, 2007

Alex Bravo said:
I would think you wouldn't want to limit yourself to one genre, readingwise. There is so much you can learn from others and then maybe figure out how to incorporate the stuff you liked in another genre into your genre. If you just read one genre, and write like everyone else, there's a greater chance you'll produce a work that's just like everyone else. I know there are some that want to do just that, but then you're having to fight with everyone else because the work doesn't stand out.

I'll respectfully disagree with this. I do think there should be a "focus" genre for reading. If the reading is too broad without any emphasis, it's too easy to write a book that doesn't fit in anywhere. One of the agents I met said that she gets stuff all the time where the writer doesn't have a clue where it fits, so the query says things like, "It's a little bit of sci-fi, mystery, romance, and glitz."

I've also found it a good way to see what's been done to death and where there are possible places where something might stand out. It's also made agent research very easy. I can go on an agent web site, and look through their list of sales to see if I've read any of their client's books. That, in turn, gives me a couple of lines about research for query letters.

Alex Bravo · Jan 7, 2007

Linda Adams said:
I'll respectfully disagree with this. I do think there should be a "focus" genre for reading. If the reading is too broad without any emphasis, it's too easy to write a book that doesn't fit in anywhere. One of the agents I met said that she gets stuff all the time where the writer doesn't have a clue where it fits, so the query says things like, "It's a little bit of sci-fi, mystery, romance, and glitz."

I can see that, but I think to be really creative, super creative, you have to read everything. And not just read, but experience a lot too because you don't know where that next hidden gem will be. For example, a lot of things we think are new and fresh really aren't, and I'm not referring to the concept that there are no new stories. We just need to find them, to dig them out and apply them to our own works. Remember the movie Aliens, a monster coming out of a living creature? That happens everyday. Wasps do this all the time, their larvae feeding off their caterpillar victims until one day they wriggle out of their living host. Horsehair worms burrow out of living crickets, killing them, when they come near water. Mind control, is another oddity found in insects, ants living normal lives until a certain time then they crawl up to the top of grass blades in the hope of getting eaten by a cow. If they don't get eaten, they go back to their nests to work until the next urge which is caused by a little worm in their brain.

Dr. Suess didn't become Dr. Suess because he copied the genre. He created a whole new area. And back then, most agents thought his work was crap.

I understand the point about going overboard and not fitting anywhere, but my favorite books usually touch on a little of everything. Still, you are right in that they mostly fit into one area or another.

Strengths, weaknesses and what you should write

drybonesreborn

Willowmound

Lightly salted

Rolling Thunder

Carrie in PA

Write All The Words!

johnzakour

Dangerous with a Keyboard

imagegod

drybonesreborn

Silver King

Megalops Erectus

drybonesreborn

gp101

drybonesreborn

blacbird

J.S Greer

Feel the power!

Linda Adams

Soldier, Storyteller

Maryn

I Tried

JanDarby

Alex Bravo

willietheshakes

Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard.

drybonesreborn

drybonesreborn

drybonesreborn

Linda Adams

Soldier, Storyteller

Linda Adams

Soldier, Storyteller

Linda Adams

Soldier, Storyteller

Alex Bravo