Getting better :(

Hi Drybones, I'm going to move your thread over to Novels because it's not really a FAQ, and I think you'll get a better response here.

My own 2 cents: If you get 10 opinions, you don't need to take all of them, especially if they don't agree with one another. Much of writing is about your own gut... sometimes I get a critique and I think, "Hey, he's right! That part doesn't quite work... I should look at that again," or "I never looked at it that way before, but now that she mentions it..." Usually there's *something* in each critique that I think is valid, but sometimes no. You need to trust your own instinct on it to decide whether or not to revise based on the feedback.

I don't think anyone's opinion "doesn't count," no matter what they do... but if this is what you're asking, then an editor, agent, or published writer's opinion will probably carry more weight with me than someone who's not in this field. (However, I have gotten valuable feedback from unpublished writers, so there are no hard and fast rules.)

Now... are you saying that you've had 10 people look at your work so far and no one's said they like the story? If so, yes, that's a problem. If you're just saying that this one person didn't say anything positive, that's not necessarily terrible... some people prefer to go straight for the "critique" part and forget to mention which things are working. But if a number of people have read it and no one's saying anything positive... well, as awful and as hard as this sounds, it might be time to go back to the drawing board and start a new project.

There is a "Share Your Work" section here-- not sure if you've seen it yet-- where you can post a few pages of your work if you want more opinions.

Comic book suspense-- someone else will have to answer that one. I'm not sure what that comment means.

drybonesreborn said:

Got tips? Want to read the story? (I feel its heart has been gutted out.)

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Yeah, one tip. If they can't send it to a publisher for you, or if they can't write you a check, don't show them your work.

I think the whole notion of beta readers is silly.

Jamesaritchie said:

Yeah, one tip. If they can't send it to a publisher for you, or if they can't write you a check, don't show them your work.

I think the whole notion of beta readers is silly.

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This is an interesting perspective. Coming from the software industry, where "beta users" are common, my initial reaction to this was to disagree. Then I thought about my own experience with "beta readers," and I had a Moment Of Zen and realized that what beta readers seem to do, more than anything, is drive me totally bare-wires crazy. Put this in, no take that out, de-emphasize that character, no give that character a lot more emphasis, on and on and on and on. I plan to take James' idea to heart, along with Jenna's comments above (which also seem to suggest what I'm saying, that beta readers can make you nuts if you let them). Sometimes as a writer I guess you just need to trust your gut as well as what you've seen that "works" in all the voluminous reading you've done in your genre (and if you're not reading voluminously in your genre, you've got a bigger problem ...) and just be my own final arbiter. The market will let me know if my gut is trustworthy or not.

Jamesaritchie said:

I think the whole notion of beta readers is silly.

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Which is fine if you're already established and confident in your abilities, Jamesaritchie - not all of us are and welcome the help and different perspectives a beta reader can offer.

Jamesaritchie said:

Yeah, one tip. If they can't send it to a publisher for you, or if they can't write you a check, don't show them your work.

I think the whole notion of beta readers is silly.

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I live by that tip.

I figure if I like what I write, some editor will also like what I write.

Also, keep in mind that someone in the "news" biz has completely different skills and expectations than someone who writes fiction. The "news" expert may know a lot about grammar and writing non-fiction, and he/she may even be an avid reader of fiction, but unless he/she is also a writer, who has studied writing craft and the current market, then the "news" expert's opinion is likely to be no more insightful than any other reader's opinion.

I do think reader opinions can be useful, but you need to be clear about what you want from the reader. I write (or try, at least) stories with a touch of comedy, and I sometimes will share a scene with a specific trusted reader, just to see if she laughs in appropriate spots. If she does, I'm relieved; if she doesn't, I have to consider reworking the scene. Note that I'm not asking her how to fix it or if I need to fix it, or whether she likes it or anything else, just whether she finds it funny (and I know she'll be honest with me, which is another key to a useful beta reader).

Another option can be asking a reader to let you know any time she gets kicked out of the story or is confused, which can be useful if you've got a complicated plot or a lot of research went into it, and you're not sure if a) you're overwhelming the story with facts, or b) you're not giving enough info for a layperson to follow.

JD

I agree with JanDarby. If you're going to have a beta reader, make it someone who is suitable - a well-read person in that genre (or even a writer in that genre). I can sub my manuscript to a college professor, but that doesn't mean he'll know what to do to fix it...

It sounds to me like this critique came from a person who didn't know how to do it, at least not up to my own lofty standards, harrumph.

I'm a co-founder of a genre-specific critique group in its 14th year. Feedback like you received, even if it's accurate, would not be acceptable in our group.

Proper critique is more than simply noting what's wrong or what didn't work for you. It's noting what's right, too, from plot to a specific word choice. The author needs to build on strengths while shoring up weaknesses. This is especially true of fledgling writers who lack confidence while still making lots of gaffes and false steps.

When we started our critique group, we wrote a handout on what was expected of both critic and author. Maybe in the future, drybones, you and any critic should hammer that out before you share your work for feedback.

Maryn, who'd back-burner that critique but not discard it

Why do you think betas have to agree on changes?

Unlike James, I like betas and value my writing group immensely, but all of us respect that the author is able to pick and choose what they use and that the final decision rests with the author. Nothing said is personal, even if what they tell me is, "Lori, this sucks. Have you started doing drugs or something? You can do far better."

Your betas should be savvy readers, those that know what a good book is. If someone can tell you why they like a book and give a reason other than "It was fun" or they didn't like a book and can tell you something other than "It was boring" then they're a candidate for a beta.

Have no more then three betas, with your opinion being the fourth. And on any given opinion, tie goes to the writer.

As you progress, you'll find the need for multiple betas dwindling. Soon you may only need one (especially if that one is an excellent reader with a good eye for what is great and what is bunk).

Hope this helps; criticism can be hard to take, especially if the critic is on a power trip or something.

But let me say...

There are times when a work is just crap and there's no nice way of putting it. And that point all you can do is start over. Which is why it's important to have betas that are smart readers (and, I forgot to mention the last time, know the genre you write); if you're going to start over, you want to make sure it's to save a dying horse and not just because your stuff "isn't their thing."

By the way, far too many academic snobs use "comic-book" as an insult because they don't realize that even the "men in tights" titles can be good literature.

Jamesaritchie said:

Yeah, one tip. If they can't send it to a publisher for you, or if they can't write you a check, don't show them your work.

I think the whole notion of beta readers is silly.

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I think that beta readers are a good idea - but like crit groups and such you have to take opinions and suggestions with a grain of salt. Find a handful of readers you can trust not to sugarcoat crits, but they should be able to deliver constructive crits, opinions that will help to improve your story and tips that might help you better your writing skills. They don't have to be directly related to the publishing industry in my opinion, they simply have to appreciate and understand what constitutes good writing and a good story.

Jamesaritchie said:

Yeah, one tip. If they can't send it to a publisher for you, or if they can't write you a check, don't show them your work.

I think the whole notion of beta readers is silly.

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Not silly at all, other people see your work through their own view of the world and what works and doesn't work in the written word. Personally I read what they have said very carefully and think hard on it. Sometimes I change everything they said was wrong with my work, just to see what it comes out like. For the most part the finished result is a blend of others' opinions causing me to re-think things mixed with me sticking to my guns.

Besides, a work is never finished, you just reach a point where, to quote a published friend of mine, " just wipe its bum and nose and have done with it."

Jamesaritchie said:

Yeah, one tip. If they can't send it to a publisher for you, or if they can't write you a check, don't show them your work.

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In the early 90s I emailed Douglas Adams and asked him if he would read a story for me, in a sense be a beta reader. (I was a bit cockier in my younger days and we had had an few email conversations.)

He basically gave me the same answer. That was the last time I ever asked anybody else to be a beta reader. It's worked out well for me.

Different strokes for different folks. I still say, if you like your book some editor will too.

drybonesreborn said:

But I see no patience for poor grammer people like me in his mind.

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This might be the most important thing you've said in this thread. Think about it. Start with the fact that the word is spelled "grammar", and work from there. I'd bet if you can improve on these essentials, you'll get more favorable reaction to your work.

caw

One thing to do is get all 10 opinions at once rather than treating each as a separate event. That way you can see what things most people find annoying, and what might just be a matter of taste.

Beta reader's opinions are not the end of the world. Take what they give you that's useful and ignore the rest. Remember that in writing, like baseball, a tie (of opinion) goes to you, the writer. So if one person likes Character A and one person hates him, and YOU like him, then you get to keep him just the way he is.

What's so special about a person from a news company? I don't care if they're the local freaking weatherman, their opinion is just another reader and nothing more. If they aren't publishing you and giving you money for it, then they're just another reader.

I show my stories (sometimes; unless I don't) to a few readers, but they aren't really beta readers. I just like having people read my stuff. They usually give me an opinion back like "I like it," or "it was all right," or "I got bored and quit halfway through" and that's enough for me.

PeeDee said:

Beta reader's opinions are not the end of the world. Take what they give you that's useful and ignore the rest. Remember that in writing, like baseball, a tie (of opinion) goes to you, the writer. So if one person likes Character A and one person hates him, and YOU like him, then you get to keep him just the way he is.

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Actually, if two people hates him and YOU like him, you still get to keep him just the way he is. It's YOUR book. Hence my hang up with beta readers.

PeeDee said:

What's so special about a person from a news company? I don't care if they're the local freaking weatherman, their opinion is just another reader and nothing more. If they aren't publishing you and giving you money for it, then they're just another reader.

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Unless of course they were the bikini clad weather girl. I might be more inclined to listen. ;-)

PeeDee said:

I show my stories (sometimes; unless I don't) to a few readers, but they aren't really beta readers. I just like having people read my stuff. They usually give me an opinion back like "I like it," or "it was all right," or "I got bored and quit halfway through" and that's enough for me.

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Wow, it's cool that you have honest friends who will actually tell you what they think.

To me the bottom line is: if you want you can take feedback from other people but too much feedback (especially if it differs) can be more confusing than helpful. It's your book you're the one who has to take the final responsibilty.

I'm going to have to agree with James.

And here's my explanation of when I re-write:
I sent out a story. Racked up a couple of form rejections, but I kept sending it out. Finally, I got a rewrite request. The editor pointed out a lot of stuff he loved, and a few little things that made the story unacceptable. So now I'm rewriting, but only because he asked me to. It's still not a definite Yes, but when an editor--who pays--says "If you fix this, that, and this one other thing, I'd like to take another look at it," I fix them.

If someone who can pay you says, "Change this," then change it.
If a reader says, "You should change this," then you should only do so if you agree with them.

johnzakour said:

Wow, it's cool that you have honest friends who will actually tell you what they think.

To me the bottom line is: if you want you can take feedback from other people but too much feedback (especially if it differs) can be more confusing than helpful. It's your book you're the one who has to take the final responsibilty.

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They're honest because I don't press for details beyond "Did you like it?"

If I started asking "Did you think Character A's motivations were pure? What were the overtones in chapter 2, and did you think they related in a socio-political sense to the tensions in modern day Calcutta?" then I guarantee they would lie. Hopefully, they would kick me in the head.

I don't think of them as beta readers. Just readers. By which I mean, it's no different than when I've published the piece. I don't want expert opinions on what to change in the story, or what works, or what's a flop. That's my job to spot.

Truth be told, I think I don't hugely like the idea of beta readers either. I remember a big thing, years ago, was that you BUILD your beta reader list to include someone who read grammatically, someone who read for character, someone who read all sorts of other things to tell you if what you'd written had been done, and so on.

I railed against it when the idea appeared on the internet. My point was, what the hell are all these other people doing your job for you!? You're the writer, you tell me if what you're doing is cliched, if the character's work, and if the grammar is okay.

Some people argue that beta readers are good if you don't have wonderful spelling or grammar. I still tend to disagree. I think this just means you need to fix it yourself, so that you can build the tools and the muscles for it, so that eventually, the problems will not occur.

I also think that Beta readers can too quickly turn into a fan club, if you're not careful, and that does no one any good at all.

So to be clear (because I'm really failing to) I think you should certainly show your story to readers. I show it to my wife, because what I write is not the sort of "thing" that she reads. If she gets through it, even tired and exhausted at the end of a long work day, and she laughs at the bits I want her to laugh at, or she's creeped out, or even if she just finishes it...then I've done okay.

I am against the idea of a group of beta readers. I am especially on the verge of railing against the idea that you should give them a friggin' questionaire about your story, or pause after each chapter to ask them questions. The only question interesting between chapters is Are you still there?

(has probably failed to be clear again)

drybonesreborn said:

If somone told you they worked for say, a news company and tore your work apart, giving you all the bad parts and not saying you did anything good, what would you do?

It's not a rejection in a sense, becuase it's not the publisher, but how can you take what they say and adjust the peice of work. When does somone's opinion count and not count?

If you asked 10 people and changed your story 10 times....when does it really end? ( You know, being done editing...nothing is perfect.)

I never got "Hey, I like your plot."

How would somone know the difference between a comic-book style suspennse is, and making a book scene suspenceful.

I haven't read comic books in 10 years, so I do not remember how to make anything like that.

Got tips? Want to read the story? (I feel its heart has been gutted out.)

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Read a lot of fiction and get a feel for the kind of thing you like to read.

Then write that.

Opinions are like snot. Everyone has a lot of it, and there are plenty of people willing to leave their nose uncovered when they sneeze.