Sokal said:
Oh dear...call me an old socialist, but the idea of "social upheaval" as a phenomena isolated from human society seems a bit odd to me.
You're an old socialist. You're also confusing my explanation of "______punk" as a literary concept with a description of punk idealogy. Punk idealogy is at it's core about anit-authoritarian uprising. This came about a very natural way in the latter part of the 20th century--as you who "experienced" the 80s should remember--and has its roots stretching back as far as the end of Victorianism. The main catalyst came in the late 70s, when an unprecented amount of young people found themselves out of work; despite having "followed the rules" of their culture, the promises of authority came up empty.
Naturally, then, came cries of over throwing the authority, of anarchism, and of--wait for it--social upheval. Did any of this come to pass? Kinda. Sorta. Not really. We got some really great bands out of it, though.
Another thing that came about was the start of the cyberpunk genre, that took the "punk" sensibility and idealology, and married it with advanced technology. Frequently, in cyberpunk novels, the anti-authoritarian goal is achieved in the end, through better tech. Technology, the cyberpunk genre says, is the great equalizer. Through proper application, we can kick those bastards in charge in the ass, and the world could be a better place.
It's a fantasy, natch. But then that's fiction for you.
The cool thing is, the literary conceit is far stretchier than first believed. It was then applied to the Victorian Era by cyberpunk pioneers William Gibson and Bruce Sterling's
Difference Engine. Thus was steampunk created, putting anachronistic technology in authoritiarian culture and allowing the punk's promise of socially upheaving the ones in charge through superior tech to bear fruit. And it works with just about any authoritarian era in history.
if a society is organized enough to produce some technical solutions it is organized enough not to fall into anarchy every time a new widget comes along.
Social upheaval and anarchy don't go hand in hand. As a literary conceit, _____punk is not about society breaking down, but being changed. The most profitable businesses in the world makes theoretical machines that have no physical existance: software. That has made very powerful and rich people that otherwise wouldn't be. Same can be said of the industrial revolution, hundred years earlier. Don't underestimate the power of the widget; gunpowder alone has changed the course of empires. And I'm not going to even bring up more innoculous things like the cotton gin.
Technology does lead to social upheaval. ______punk, like all science fiction, just blows the issue up large.
What is "punk" about early Humanism...I mean in reality (to ponder your idea about moveable type)? What is punk about printing presses that print Ideograms in China (as they did long before the Renaissance in the west)?
Nothing. However, put xerox machines (as I'm doing with my Renaissance guys) in a era of China where there is strict authoritarian rule--especially one that declared martial law, say--allow a small faction of dissents to suddenly have their voices heard by the easy dessimination of complex printed work, which allows them to gain further support and alert others to their cause and you may end up with a historical version of
this.
Which would be pretty punk.
