I’m reaching for more answers on this.

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GPatten

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Note: I stand corrected. It's a graphic rape scene and a graphic love scene.

I’ve written one short erotic rape scene and two short erotic love scenes in one of my novels Mystery/Thriller novel. I also wrote several erotic rape scenes on one of my Sci-Fi novels.

I wonder if I should have.

Would they be marketable in Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Thriller or Suspense markets?

Have I limited my chance on an agent wanting and marketing it?

Should I be careful of what I write in those genres? Should I cut back on the hot stuff and just hint at it?

I rather enjoy adding a little romance into my novels and I even like to add a little of the hot – hot stuff too.
 
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Maryn

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I think you're going to have a real tough sell in nearly every genre with a scene which involves rape and is intended to be erotic. While there are surely people who do find rape a real turn-on, they're far outnumbered by those who appalled by it.

A rape scene intended to arouse the reader loses your female market in particular, and women are the book-buyers. In recent years, women won't even tolerate the formerly-acceptable scenes in which she says no repeatedly, he proceeds nevertheless, and then she starts saying yes.

Although I can cite novels where rape is erotic, they're all BDSM-oriented erotica, not romance, mystery, or science fiction. Anne Rice's "Sleeping Beauty" trilogy comes to mind.

That said, I don't see a problem with a scene that includes characters acting out a rape fantasy, consensually, in non-erotica genres. Well-written, that could be quite erotic to many readers.

Maryn, remembering a library thriller where a previous reader had blacked out all the words that offended her
 

imagoodgurl4

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Speaking as an avid reader and a woman, I know I would find an erotic rape scene offensive. I have been sexually harassed/assaulted and I have a friend who was raped. I don't believe it is an erotic experience and would personally find such a scene distasteful. I'm sure you were not intending to glamourize such a touchy subject, but I think that might be what people think and I believe you will lose many readers this way.

I hope this helps. Good luck with your book.
 

GPatten

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Thank you, Maryn and imagoodgurl4.

No, no, no. Nothing of the sort.

I didn’t intend to arouse people with the erotic content in it and I think I’ve decided to just remove the erotic content to the rape scene.

What I intended on was to arouse the anger towards the rapists. This is truly not an erotic novel.

My query letter for it.

-----------------------------------------------

In “OTHER VOICES, OTHER PEOPLE” Ashley Hill, the protagonist of my novel, is a young woman who literally stumbles into a world of murder, intrigue, and assassination. On the prowl, Ashley’s revenge reaches out for four young men who brutally raped her. Carrying out a plot for revenge, Ashley sets out to assassinate all four, one-by-one. It involves an NYPD female detective who is frustrated over the systems inability to prosecute, bring to trial and convict rapists and sex offenders.

This plot caries Ashley into falling in love with and marrying Troy Logan who is a calm soft-spoken CEO Pharmacist who owns a chain of drugstores across the New England area. Finding Troy had been a former Commander in the US Navy Seals, he becomes involved with her revenge in the murder of the last rapists. Troy finds Ashley has the gift of a topnotch assassin and lets her in on a secret government assignment. Incidents’ reveled Troy was a US Government mole, a secret agent buried within the government poised for assignments by the CIA to assassinate enemies of the state. Ashley is drown into these assignments when the government learns of her abilities.

Blunders of government almost get both of them killed and they end their association with the government. They spend the rest of their time living life, as it should be lived.
 
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JanDarby

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You may have simply meant that it was a graphic rape scene, rather than an erotic ("intended to arouse") rape scene, in which case, the only question, really, is whether it's necessary for the story. If it is, keep it. If not, then cut it. Nothing else matters.

OTOH, you do need to be aware of your audience. Women buy the majority of books, and you may lose a good chunk of your potential readership if you have the rape occur on-stage, rather than off-stage. Personally, in most cases, I would not read a book containing a rape scene (or any other type of violence, but particularly rape), whether intended to arouse or simply b/c it was integral to the story, and a lot of women are going to feel the same way (as you're perhaps getting from the previous responses). OTOH, I believe (although it's been a while since I read it) that there's a fairly graphic rape scene in one of Lois McMaster Bujold's books (definitely not intended to arouse), and she is a brilliant writer, and I've recommended the book to a number of people.

ETA: Note that I wrote this before the clarification above was posted, clarifying that the scene is not meant to titillate.

JD
 

vrabinec

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Won't work IMO. As a guy, the rape scene probably isn't as offensive to me as it would be to women, but I find erotic rape scenes unbelievable-Penthouse Furom kind of stuff. Someone tried it in a Fantasy novel I read (I think it was Donaldson in Mumble, mumble Looking glass (or Mirror, it's been a while since I read the thing) And, even though he made it relatively tame and there was a reason for the woman to "submit", it still ruined the book for me. A believable rape should look something like the one in The Accused. Definitely not erotic, no matter how hot I think Jodie Foster is.
 

giftedrhonda

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I'd have a really, really hard time reading a graphic rape scene. If it's critical to the story to show it, you need to do what's right for your manuscript, but I'd probably be hesitant to read it myself. However, your query letter sounds really interesting, and I'd probably want to read the rest to see how she handles the situation, as well as how she heals and moves on.
 

GPatten

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Thank you, JanDarby.

You’ve given me an idea how to get out of this mess of almost 60,000 words I’ve written so far.

“Off stage” I assume you meant, “It happened.

I like that. I think I can get some anger towards the rapists with that. As for the erotic love, I think graphic is a better description for what I’ve written.

Now the only other thing I worry about, are the graphic assassination scenes, however my protagonist is a highly intelligent, Alpha female and her husband is also a former Alpha male; both of them get along quite well.

I would say, the content of the novel will be 75 percent life, and 25 percent graphic violence in killing off the bad guys.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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My first novel had a graphic gang rape scene in it. I had several women I know read it and from their reaction, it was severely edited and then never made the final cut.

Turns out the scene wasn't really necessary to show the princess' emotional growth.
 

janetbellinger

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Rape is not erotic or about sex. It is about aggression and power over the victim. People don't rape other people out of passion. They rape them out of hatred and contempt. There is no consideration given of waiting for instance until the other person is aroused. In the case of a male raping a female, penetration is painful for the woman, due to the fact she is not aroused and the male forces his way in. What is erotic about that?
 

Stacia Kane

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I', assuming you did indeed mean "graphic" and not "erotic"--at first I thought you were talking about forced seduction which is an entirely different thing.

I agree, have it take place off-stage, or if you MUST include it, you'll find you can show the reader what's happening by focusing on the heroine. What is she feeling? What is she thinking? If you focus on her, you can allude to what's happening physically without getting graphic--much more acceptable.
 

Gillhoughly

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So far all my editors in the S.F. mystery and romance markets have been female. That's for over 20 book sales.

I'm not saying their gender will influence their decision-making on your inclusion of an "erotic" rape scene. But you would have to be one bleeping fantastic writer to convince them that buying your books with such scenes will make their company money.

They are very well aware that rape is not considered the least bit erotic in the general market and likely be a turn-off to a huge chunk of readers. There is a demand for "fantasy rape" scenes in erotic markets--of which those editors are not a part.

If you can do your genre books without such scenes being erotic (if they are an absolutely necessary part of the story) you might have a chance.

Speaking as an editor, the idea of an erotic rape squicks me out. Too many of my friends have been raped for real. Consider that the editors you're sending the books to might also have such friends--or worse, personal experience.
 

GPatten

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Hot Dog!

This is the information I’ve wanted to hear, or read. I don’t care to write erotic sex, or rape scenes; I don’t read it, so...I’m happy to find out what I have today and eliminate it.

Now I like to add some love scenes, with a hint of hot stuff in it, I think I may tone that down too, and do that with the love scenes. I think I will tone down the rape and just mention the rapes in some manor. I just need to find a way to motivate Ashley Hill, the protagonist of my novel to be angry enough to kill and do the same with my readers to accept that anger and understand her motivation.

JanDarby said:
ETA: Note that I wrote this before the clarification above was posted, clarifying that the scene is not meant to titillate.

JD

Thank you Jan. You too, vrabinec. Never the less, it good to finally hear this information. I’m quite ignorant on things of such.

giftedrhonda said:
I'd have a really, really hard time reading a graphic rape scene. If it's critical to the story to show it, you need to do what's right for your manuscript, but I'd probably be hesitant to read it myself. However, your query letter sounds really interesting, and I'd probably want to read the rest to see how she handles the situation, as well as how she heals and moves on.

Thanks giftedrhonda, I don’t know how you can read a novel intended to be around 80,000 words on here. I have quite a lot of work to do now and I’m excited in finally receiving these inputs.

I’d say, once Ashley Hill, the protagonist of my novel kills, or assassinates the four bad guys, she seems to rid herself of the past and moves on. But, in getting caught with the task of a Government...hidden mole with her husband, she moves in with gusto on the assignments and is a real tiger that turns the heads of the best of them.

And, why not? She has a dang good looking, former Navy Seal husband and two attack, trained Belgian Malinois Shepherd police attack dogs. They’re seasoned street dogs who have made many arrests. They’re trained on drugs, bombs and rescue too.

Gillhoughly said:
So far all my editors in the S.F. mystery and romance markets have been female. That's for over 20 book sales.

I'm not saying their gender will influence their decision-making on your inclusion of an "erotic" rape scene. But you would have to be one bleeping fantastic writer to convince them that buying your books with such scenes will make their company money.

They are very well aware that rape is not considered the least bit erotic in the general market and likely be a turn-off to a huge chunk of readers. There is a demand for "fantasy rape" scenes in erotic markets--of which those editors are not a part.

If you can do your genre books without such scenes being erotic (if they are an absolutely necessary part of the story) you might have a chance.

Speaking as an editor, the idea of an erotic rape squicks me out. Too many of my friends have been raped for real. Consider that the editors you're sending the books to might also have such friends--or worse, personal experience.

As you can see, I’ve changed my ideas and will do it different. Thanks; you too have helped me with that decision. I sure wish I had asked about this long ago.

Shadow_Ferret, thanks. I forgot to add yours. It helps.
 
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Azure Skye

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I would not read a book that had a rape scene in it. It would offend me to no end and I'm not easily offended by graphic sexual content.

I haven't met any women yet who fantasizes about being raped. I know this is not what you're talking about but I wonder if people get confused with consensual rough sex, maybe in the form of role playing, with a desire to get raped. Rough sex is erotic or can be if you're into that but it's not rape or even hints of it.

Ok, I realize I kind of went off in another direction there and I apologize.

I agree with whoever said leave it off stage. Oh, and make her kick their asses in the most humiliating way possible. :)
 
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vrabinec

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GPatten said:
Thank you.
You’re a bit late, and it appears to me, you might not have read the thread.

LMAO! I'm expecting that, at any minute, someone will flame you with something like: "You must not have kids! What if it was your daughter you vile, contemptible..."

Yeah, it does pay to read the thread, but that takes so much effort...
 

Jamesaritchie

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Rape

Azura Skye said:
I would not read a book that had a rape scene in it. It would offend me to no end and I'm not easily offended by graphic sexual content.

I haven't met any women yet who fantasizes about being raped. I know this is not what you're talking about but I wonder if people get confused with consensual rough sex, maybe in the form of role playing, with a desire to get raped. Rough sex is erotic or can be if you're into that but it's not rape or even hints of it.

Ok, I realize I kind of went off in another direction there and I apologize.

I agree with whoever said leave it off stage. Oh, and make her kick their asses in the most humiliating way possible. :)

I tend to leave many things offstage, but at the same time, I think it's rather silly to say you shouldn't have a rape scene. Rape is real, all too common, and brutal. It's one of those things that should be written about, and sometimes teh best way to write about something is to show it as it really is, not to hide it offstage.

And I'd never have the victim kick a rapist's ass. That's just sending a message that could get some real women seriously injured or killed.
 

GPatten

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Thank you, Azura Skye.
At 72 years of age, I’ll just stick to sex. I’m too confused about the differences between Erotic and Graphic sex. Now you’ve added Rough sex to the mix.

I’m just happy to take my shoes off to save the bed sheets.
OldSeaCaptain.jpg


Oh! You can bet My Ashley, my books protagonist kicks azz in my novel. You Bet! She doesn’t lay down afterward, curl up, and cry. She’s dang mad and she’s got the broken bones and scars to prove it. She goes after those scumbags like a railroad train, one-by-one.
 

CrankItTo11

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Allowing the rape to happen offstage could actually be even more powerful than delivering a blow-by-blow. You know, a monster is most terrifying when you can't quite see him...

I don't think you need to avoid rape as a subject matter, but you need to know how to handle it. I don't think I have the skills to make it work on any meaningful level, so I've never included a rape scene in any of my writing... it was, however, part of a backstory in one novel.
 

CrankItTo11

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GPatten said:
I’m just happy to take my shoes off to save the bed sheets.
OldSeaCaptain.jpg


quote]

Your story line could be very cathartic.

The above picture and line cracked me up. Good times.
 

Azure Skye

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GPatten said:
Thank you, Azura Skye.
At 72 years of age, I’ll just stick to sex. I’m too confused about the differences between Erotic and Graphic sex. Now you’ve added Rough sex to the mix.

I’m just happy to take my shoes off to save the bed sheets.
OldSeaCaptain.jpg


Oh! You can bet My Ashley, my books protagonist kicks azz in my novel. You Bet! She doesn’t lay down afterward, curl up, and cry. She’s dang mad and she’s got the broken bones and scars to prove it. She goes after those scumbags like a railroad train, one-by-one.

LOL

Cool.
 

GPatten

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Jamesaritchie said:
I tend to leave many things offstage, but at the same time, I think it's rather silly to say you shouldn't have a rape scene. Rape is real, all too common, and brutal. It's one of those things that should be written about, and sometimes teh best way to write about something is to show it as it really is, not to hide it offstage.

And I'd never have the victim kick a rapist's ass. That's just sending a message that could get some real women seriously injured or killed.

You have a point, James.

Though, I know of a few 90 pound all bones women who have chased a man around on the streets with a heavy iron skillet, or a butcher knife. And, believe you me, them guys ran.

Twenty years ago, the Sheriff of Brevard County Florida got sick of the murders and rapists in the county and registered quite a lot of women to carry concealed, CCW license. And, of course he gave them an extensive course on the use of and safety of handguns. It had an effect, but I think though the years, things have changed a little.
 

GPatten

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CrankItTo11 said:
Your story line could be very cathartic.

The above picture and line cracked me up. Good times.

Thank you, CrankItTo11. Happy to be of service. As to my storyline being cathartic, I don’t know. It depends on what a woman has learned in life. Should she lay down and take it, or fight back?

Would it be therapeutic to hunt them down? I don’t know. She would be breaking the law.
 
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inanna

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Jamesaritchie said:
I tend to leave many things offstage, but at the same time, I think it's rather silly to say you shouldn't have a rape scene. Rape is real, all too common, and brutal. It's one of those things that should be written about, and sometimes teh best way to write about something is to show it as it really is, not to hide it offstage.
I totally agree. And I also agree with DecemberQuinn's suggestion for handling it:

... if you MUST include it, you'll find you can show the reader what's happening by focusing on the heroine. What is she feeling? What is she thinking? If you focus on her, you can allude to what's happening physically without getting graphic--much more acceptable.
If it's central to character development, it seems to me it ought to be explored. But that doesn't mean it has to be a step-by-step account; in fact, at the moment I can't think of any occasion when it should ever be that graphic. The character's emotions and reactions are what's critical here, anyway (like DecemberQuinn said - I'm just being redundant :) ).
 
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