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Del

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Are monsters generally considered horror?

Koonts wrote a monster story (alien stuff) where the only thing the monster did was kill a few crows and a raccoon, and they weren't intentional. There was a brief zombie issue. What about it?

I like monster stories and there just aren't enough good ones anymore.
 

Mr. Horror

Hmm... monsters...

Frankenstein, that most human of monsters, evoked feelings of pity. Dracula... I'm not entirely sure what Dracula evoked, but it certainly wasn't screams. Ghosts, demons, vampires... Not all of them are scary. I think of werewolves as merely fluffy.

Monsters, I think, do not automatically make horror. The circumstances in which they are portrayed and the subtle moments that build the tension, though. Those are the most important parts of delicious terror. In some ways, it is more important than the monster. Anything can be terrible, given the correct circumstances. Even a shadow on a wall. Especially a shadow on a wall.

I shall agree with you about your observation on the lack of good monster stories. There just aren't many around any more. I personally blame Disney. The sugar-coated poison pills they call 'entertainment' have leeched away the ability of most monsters to be scary. Now they're merely 'misunderstood'.
 
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Jamesaritchie

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Mr. Horror said:
Hmm... monsters...

Frankenstein, that most human of monsters, evoked feelings of pity. Dracula... I'm not entirely sure what Dracula evoked, but it certainly wasn't screams. Ghosts, demons, vampires... Not all of them are scary. I think of werewolves as merely fluffy.

Monsters, I think, do not automatically make horror. The circumstances in which they are portrayed and the subtle moments that build the tension, though. Those are the most important parts of delicious terror. In some ways, it is more important than the monster. Anything can be terrible, given the correct circumstances. Even a shadow on a wall. Especially a shadow on a wall.

I shall agree with you about your observation on the lack of good monster stories. There just aren't many around any more. I personally blame Disney. The sugar-coated poison pills they call 'entertainment' have leeched away the ability of most monsters to be scary. Now they're merely 'misunderstood'.

Have you read King's short story "Night Flier?" That is the scariest piece of vampire fiction I've ever read. No pity there, just a vampire that is absolutely evil, completely merciless, and unrelentingly terrifying.

And if a werewolf is fluffy, the writer didn't do his job.
 

Mr. Horror

All werewolves are fluffy. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a werewolf as anything else. I'd probably still call a werewolf 'cute and fluffy' while it was eating my intestines.

I'll look into 'Night Flier'. If he's anything like the vampires portrayed on various forms of media, though... Lestat, for example, is merely 'meh'.
 

Jackie Coupe

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I like modern monsters - they grunt and have drool dribbling down their chins.
There's so many sub groups now though its a bit daunting.

'Ernest scared stupid' - the troll in that, ACE monster!:D

Monsters and their true meaning went out the window for me when I was bought a 'My Pet Monster' for christmas one time, complete with cute unsnappable handcuffs.
(This also led to experimentation with bondage well before schedule)
 

Del

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Jamesaritchie said:
Have you read King's short story "Night Flier?" That is the scariest piece of vampire fiction I've ever read. No pity there, just a vampire that is absolutely evil, completely merciless, and unrelentingly terrifying.

And if a werewolf is fluffy, the writer didn't do his job.

I've read Night Flier, though I cannot recall it. I'll dig it out and read it again.

Horror doesn't evoke much emotion from me. I enjoy it. I'm entertained. But to become scared...not for a good many years. I suppose that is why I am having so much trouble grasping the horror genre.

Not everyone is going to reach the same level of alarm. Mr. H might feel an urge to scratch a werewolf's fuzzy little head where, with the same book, JAR might have trouble keeping his heart in its cavety. Did the writer do his job?

The writer has failed if I skip pages or chapters or put the book down. If I want to turn the page then I'm happy.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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Mr. Horror said:
Hmm... monsters...

Frankenstein, that most human of monsters, evoked feelings of pity. Dracula... I'm not entirely sure what Dracula evoked, but it certainly wasn't screams. Ghosts, demons, vampires... Not all of them are scary. I think of werewolves as merely fluffy.

Not today, not any more. But at the time, Dracula, Karloff's Frankenstein monster, the Wolf Man (most of the Universal monsters in fact) were scary. Heck people fainted in the theater at the sight of Lon Chaney in "The Phantom of the Opera" when he removed his mask.

I remember being plenty scared by the Hammer Film versions of Dracula.

Are we just too sophisticated or jaded today to be scared of monsters?
 

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Werewolf

Mr. Horror said:
All werewolves are fluffy. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a werewolf as anything else. I'd probably still call a werewolf 'cute and fluffy' while it was eating my intestines.

I'll look into 'Night Flier'. If he's anything like the vampires portrayed on various forms of media, though... Lestat, for example, is merely 'meh'.

I think the problem may be that you've never had a wolf, or any other thing in the night, actually try to eat your intestines. Or just been in a position to believe something might.

I tend to go along with whoever said you have to have been terrified to feel real fear from reading fiction.

But, no, the vampire in "Night Flier" is nothing at all like Lesat. Nothing. And along with much of what you say, much the fear comes from things you don't see, or from things you do see before the vampire is ever shown.

At the same time, horror fiction doesn't terrify me, either. It doesn't make my heart race or my hands tremble. But this does not, in any way, stop me from seeing the creatures therein as terrifying.
 

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Isn't it more about creating an atmosphere within the fiction in which your CHARACTERS are believably afraid of the monsters and that the reader, in turn, fears FOR the characters rather than having the reader directly fear the monster?
 

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Characters

Shadow_Ferret said:
Isn't it more about creating an atmosphere within the fiction in which your CHARACTERS are believably afraid of the monsters and that the reader, in turn, fears FOR the characters rather than having the reader directly fear the monster?

Primarily, yes, I think you're right. But I do think really good horror fiction should make you thinnk twice about turning out the light before you go to bad, and it should make you wonder what that scratching sound out there in teh darkness might be.
 

Del

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Shadow_Ferret said:
Isn't it more about creating an atmosphere within the fiction in which your CHARACTERS are believably afraid of the monsters and that the reader, in turn, fears FOR the characters rather than having the reader directly fear the monster?

I agree. I've been drawn into a story but never enough to forget that I am snug in my bed/recliner. I have found myself hoping for something for a particular character but I have never stood between them and what threatens them. I can't imagine a writer ever getting more out of me.

I recall reading Native Son (1940) by Richard Wright back in 69/70 and to this day I can still vividly see that burning head in the furnace in that basement. It wasn't horror, but the suspense was greater than any horror piece I've read. I remember being horrified over Bigger brick-bashing his girlfriend. What I don't know is, was it because I was young (14 or 15), or are we now so accustomed to seeing and reading evil and violence that it doesn't phase us much?

I know writing has changed immensely. I suppose it is practical to assume that readers have too. Or maybe it is just we grew up and that is why the young adult market is so much bigger than the others. If so, It would tend to support that life experience doesn't improve the emotional reading experience. Perhaps it is because I have lived a mountain of personal horrors is why I cannot get that feeling from a book. And If I can't get it, I don't know how I'll ever be able to write it.
 

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personal horrors

Delarege said:
Perhaps it is because I have lived a mountain of personal horrors is why I cannot get that feeling from a book. And If I can't get it, I don't know how I'll ever be able to write it.

It's the opposite for me. The only reason I believe horror fiction touches me is because I really have lived through horrors. I've been terrifed, and was very early on. I grew up in a back country house that had real horrors try to break in, had real horrors assault a couple of the women who lived there, etc. And I've stood at the top of the basement stairs while something on the other side of the door tried its best to break the door down.

I've seen many people killed, I've been shot at, and have shot back. I've had a face to face encounter with a bear, I've been in the kind of fight where the other person has every intention of killing you, on and on.

This is all what makes horror fiction real to me.
 

Del

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Jamesaritchie said:
It's the opposite for me. The only reason I believe horror fiction touches me is because I really have lived through horrors. I've been terrifed, and was very early on. I grew up in a back country house that had real horrors try to break in, had real horrors assault a couple of the women who lived there, etc. And I've stood at the top of the basement stairs while something on the other side of the door tried its best to break the door down.

I've seen many people killed, I've been shot at, and have shot back. I've had a face to face encounter with a bear, I've been in the kind of fight where the other person has every intention of killing you, on and on.

This is all what makes horror fiction real to me.

Sounds a lot like me. Although, my bear was a big mean dog but when you are small I imagine the effects are similar. When something nearly as big as you tries to get at you tooth and claw it doesn't much matter what species it is. And had I had a gun when I was shot at I would have shot back but being unarmed I just ran...very fast. For never having gone to war I've seen my fair share of death, my dad for one, nearly decapitated. It is remarkable the amount of blood a body can spill. That is a lingering post-event thought from that night, a Friday the 13th no less.

But my greatest horror is that many of these dead were just children. Do you know how to tell someone died instantly? Because the deep gashes in her pretty face never bled. Almost a dozen dead haunt my sleep, half of them children, three were friends of mine, riding bikes and run down by a drunk. The other children were strangers that I just had the misfortune of reaching the scene first. One was a bloody and broken 2 year old girl that didn't die right away. She wasn't awake but the fact that she lingered somehow makes it worse. Even though that was over 25 years ago she can still make me cry some nights. Every time I hear a crash I relive a dozen others. I went two years imagining blood spots on highways. How the brain can give that red hue to a puddle of water I can't say but it is disturbing. I imagine it stemed from the incredibly long blood sreaks when those three where drug under that guys car.

I've had my share of 4 legged frights, being a country dweller most of my life but the biggest monsters I've encountered have been bipedal and possessed rational reasoning ability.

I'm angry for most of this. I try to write it into my stories but I'm a passivist at heart and have spent my life running away rather than taking a stand. This is probably why I can't get that PUNCH into what I write. My characters tend not to resolve issues but (like in my own life) issues tend to resolve around them. A stroke of luck, as it were.

Lots of things frighten me often, just not when I read. I get more out of a story while I am writing it. I see what I write much more vividly than what I read.

Still, I love a good monster story and I hope mine turn out that way. Most of mine are canine related (big foot, wolf hybrid, mutant puppies)...Hmmm...(thinks of that big mean dog) But, unless I figure out what I lack, any success will be in another genre.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Delarege said:
Sounds a lot like me. Although, my bear was a big mean dog but when you are small I imagine the effects are similar. When something nearly as big as you tries to get at you tooth and claw it doesn't much matter what species it is. And had I had a gun when I was shot at I would have shot back but being unarmed I just ran...very fast. For never having gone to war I've seen my fair share of death, my dad for one, nearly decapitated. It is remarkable the amount of blood a body can spill. That is a lingering post-event thought from that night, a Friday the 13th no less.

But my greatest horror is that many of these dead were just children. Do you know how to tell someone died instantly? Because the deep gashes in her pretty face never bled. Almost a dozen dead haunt my sleep, half of them children, three were friends of mine, riding bikes and run down by a drunk. The other children were strangers that I just had the misfortune of reaching the scene first. One was a bloody and broken 2 year old girl that didn't die right away. She wasn't awake but the fact that she lingered somehow makes it worse. Even though that was over 25 years ago she can still make me cry some nights. Every time I hear a crash I relive a dozen others. I went two years imagining blood spots on highways. How the brain can give that red hue to a puddle of water I can't say but it is disturbing. I imagine it stemed from the incredibly long blood sreaks when those three where drug under that guys car.

I've had my share of 4 legged frights, being a country dweller most of my life but the biggest monsters I've encountered have been bipedal and possessed rational reasoning ability.

I'm angry for most of this. I try to write it into my stories but I'm a passivist at heart and have spent my life running away rather than taking a stand. This is probably why I can't get that PUNCH into what I write. My characters tend not to resolve issues but (like in my own life) issues tend to resolve around them. A stroke of luck, as it were.

Lots of things frighten me often, just not when I read. I get more out of a story while I am writing it. I see what I write much more vividly than what I read.

Still, I love a good monster story and I hope mine turn out that way. Most of mine are canine related (big foot, wolf hybrid, mutant puppies)...Hmmm...(thinks of that big mean dog) But, unless I figure out what I lack, any success will be in another genre.

Funny, but dogs are just about the only thing that never have frightened me. Maybe because I owned very large dogs as a very young kid, and then raised dogs as a teen. Never saw a dog I didn't think I could handle, at least when I was young, nimble, and strong.

If anything really scares me, it's people. People are the real monsters.
 

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I see a distinct difference between fear and horror (in terms of writing/movies). Fear is typically related to a concrete threat of physical pain, injury, or death and evokes a basic fight-or-flight type of response. Whether that is a monster, an animal, an alien, or another person isn't really relavant. The reaction is the same.

Horror (to me) is more closely related to the unknown. Something is wrong, but you don't know what. Or something is threatening, but in an ill-defined way. Death? Maybe, but perhaps something worse... Some classic horror also deals with horrific revelations. Lovecraft protagonists, in particular, often found themselves learning about something terrifying, but in an abstract manner, then coming to the realization that the terror was before them in different terms than they were expecting.

As a reader/viewer, fear overtly shocks you or makes you anxious. Horror is more subtly discomforting.
 

Del

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I submit. Monsters are not horror. They can instill horror as can most things, done right. I like the shadow on the wall example, Mr. H. I've had one of those.

I don't see a great distinction between fear and horror unless we consider degree. Fear can be mild but mild horror would only be fear. I do like your last line, Tree, and I'm adding it to my accumulating dictionary of horror.

For your amusement:

I was about 7. I woke about 1 AM and saw a shadow thing on my bed. For reason unknown I got it into my head that it was a giant rat. I knew without doubt that if I called for my dad that thing would kill me before he was ever out of bed. My eyes never left it and I sat with my back straight, legs outstretched, unmoving until first light, 5 hours. It was the cat.

Maybe that's why I am how I am. :D

That wasn't the worst fright I recall but it was certainly the longest. And it was imagined! Horror isn't what is there but what you think is there. I accidentally used a prescription nasal spray with an antidepressant and a pain reliever (Darvon?). There was a timber wolf in the hall and no one was going to convince me otherwise. That was a long night too.
 

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Horror

Maybe it does have something to do with age. I have never in my life felt such stark terror as I did after watching Frankestein and The Mummy as a wee lad. I had nightmares, and those monsters flat scared the Holy bejeebers out of me.
 

a tree of night

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I guess it's the POV that makes the difference to me. If someone is coming after me with a butcher knife, I'm not thinking about the distinguishing elements between fear and horror - just "feets don't fail me now". But that's me reacting to something happening to me. If I'm reading a book and my favorite character is being chased by a monster, I may be fearing for their safety (as much as is possible for a fictional character), but I'm not scared myself. I can watch slasher flicks all day and all night, go to bed and sleep peacefully while my neighbor revs a chainsaw outside. It just doesn't affect me in the slightest. The things that I transfer from the character's POV to my own and think about in the middle of the night are the ones I consider true horror. Those are typically the unknown or incongruous elements - the wheelchair in The Changeling, the underwater room in Argento's Inferno, Capote's deaf-mute...
 

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I think the best monsters are the ones that retain some link with humanity. I strongly recommend Sturgeon's short story, "It" -- one of the most horrifiic tales around.
 

Del

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JDCrayne said:
I think the best monsters are the ones that retain some link with humanity.

I think so, if I understand it right.

For instance, in King's "IT" I was much more distraught over his clown than I was over the spidery thing it later became.
 

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Jamesaritchie said:
If anything really scares me, it's people. People are the real monsters.
No doubt this is true, but I just have never been scared by any horror movie/book that had a human as the 'monster'. I have a gun and I know how to use it. Anything that you pump six rounds into and it just keeps coming, now that scares me. Humans are fragile creatures, when it comes down to it. Something that can kill but cannot be killed is much more frightening.

Of course, maybe it does come down to your experiences. I've never had a human try to seriously hurt me. But I have seen shadows on the walls. And whatever you want to call the source, it was no cat.
I've driven my car right into something the size of a man, only to have no impact when it met with the bumper. And I was absolutely sober and my passenger saw it too. She said 'look out'. The very idea of that creepy Nevada road still scares me.

Maybe monsters scare me more because I know they're real. A well written monster will convince me that it really exists .... and is living somewhere very close.

Horror is my favorite genre to read because I like to be scared. Not just for the characters, but for myself, scared that I'll be the monsters next victim. After all, I did drive that creepy Nevada road twice, just to see what would happen. If I'm ever in that part of the country again, I'll probably give it another try.

All that said, it is very difficult to find books with real scary monsters. There isn't any one type of monster that I think is better than another. They have to be completely devoid of conscious, and attack either out of instinct or malice. Sometimes I find the creepiest monsters to be the ones that don't kill, but do other even more horrible things to their victim’s body or mind. They have to be very difficult or impossible to stop/kill. And whatever damage they do has to be on a small and secretive scale. Otherwise, it would be on the news.
 

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Hope To The Horizon said:
No doubt this is true, but I just have never been scared by any horror movie/book that had a human as the 'monster'. I have a gun and I know how to use it. Anything that you pump six rounds into and it just keeps coming, now that scares me. Humans are fragile creatures, when it comes down to it. Something that can kill but cannot be killed is much more frightening.

Of course, maybe it does come down to your experiences. I've never had a human try to seriously hurt me. But I have seen shadows on the walls. And whatever you want to call the source, it was no cat.
I've driven my car right into something the size of a man, only to have no impact when it met with the bumper. And I was absolutely sober and my passenger saw it too. She said 'look out'. The very idea of that creepy Nevada road still scares me.

Maybe monsters scare me more because I know they're real. A well written monster will convince me that it really exists .... and is living somewhere very close.

Horror is my favorite genre to read because I like to be scared. Not just for the characters, but for myself, scared that I'll be the monsters next victim. After all, I did drive that creepy Nevada road twice, just to see what would happen. If I'm ever in that part of the country again, I'll probably give it another try.

All that said, it is very difficult to find books with real scary monsters. There isn't any one type of monster that I think is better than another. They have to be completely devoid of conscious, and attack either out of instinct or malice. Sometimes I find the creepiest monsters to be the ones that don't kill, but do other even more horrible things to their victim’s body or mind. They have to be very difficult or impossible to stop/kill. And whatever damage they do has to be on a small and secretive scale. Otherwise, it would be on the news.

I have a bunch of guns and know how to use them. But people are still the real terrors, and shooting someone, or killing them if you do shoot them, isn't always as easy as many think. Some people are fragile, some are not.

I'm not terribly fond of being scared because I've been scared for real, so horror stories really don't do it for me these days.

But when I was a child, Lord, how those monsters frightened me.
 
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