Scene separation marks within a chapter

I think this is the most common current usage: Use # centered on its own line for each scene break, whether at a page break or not.

If you've already used -o-, then you can just do a find and replace.

JanW said:

Is there a particular preferred set of characters to indicate a scene separation within a chapter? I've tended to use -o- instead of ***. Are there any rules or preferences about this formating indicator in a manuscript?

I've read that the marks are only needed when the break happens at a page break because otherwise it wouldn't be obvious that it was there. However, since the manuscript is just a holding pattern for the final typesetting, I feel like I should put them in every place there is a scene break.

Opinions or expertise appreciated!

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There may be an industry standard, Jan; however, my publisher dictated the scene break indications for my MS. They just use "xxxxx" (5 x's), since the function is for the editor/layout folks to be able to do a global search-and-replace with whatever wingding (or other symbol) they're going to use in the book. I put them in at every major break (irrespective of where they fell on the page), and just annotated minor breaks (for which I didn't use anything but an extra blank line between bodies of text) for the editor that there was a minor break here.

Don't know if this helps--just my experience.

I usually don't like to have separate scenes in the same chapter. To me, with my pulp SF writing, a separate scene usually feels like a new chapter.

On those occasions when a new scene "feels right" in the same chapter I simply separate it with a blank line. I'm a pretty simple guy.

Is it just me or does -o- look like a guy with a big nose taking a nap?

# flush left is what I know as industry standard. Use it in your drafts. Different editors may have their own specific standards listed under Submission Guidelines, but don't worry about those until you have a polished draft and are looking to submit.

I use * centred. Just the one. Is that acceptable? Both in the middle of a page and if the scene break happens at the top or bottom.

I'm assuming it's one of those things I get worried about when in fact it should be the story that concerns me most?

I was using the centred #, but manner publishers are all surprisingly specific on this matter. So you could use the # as a default and replace it out when you know where the manuscript is going.

scarletpeaches said:

I'm assuming it's one of those things I get worried about when in fact it should be the story that concerns me most?

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Yep.

As writers, we have an immeasurable capacity for procrastination, and sweating the small stuff before the big picture is complete is just one of our methods. No worries, though, we all do it.

Thing is, are there really any publishers or agents who would say, "This book's fantastic! But wait...they used a hash instead of an asterisk to show a scene break - to the shredder with it, and bring me the eye-bleach!"

Sweating the small stuff will give you hives.

I'm in the ###'s centered camp, but the biggest thing is to be consistent throughout, and check each agent's guidelines to see if they have a preferance, and change accordingly using a global find/replace.

I get the UK W&A Yearbook, and there doesn't seem to be any specification, either in the book or on any website. They tell you whether to query or submit a proposal, how many chapters or pages and that's about it.

So I make sure the book's as good as it can be, the proposal's printed without any typos, and leave it in the lap of the gods after that.

johnzakour said:

On those occasions when a new scene "feels right" in the same chapter I simply separate it with a blank line. I'm a pretty simple guy.

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Nothing wrong with this, but be aware that, in a manuscript, if that blank line falls at the end or beginning of a page, it may not be noticed. That's why some sort of symbol is preferable.

caw

JanW said:

Thanks, Alleycat. You're spot on almost. I finally stumbled across the info on the FAQ for Manuscript Preparation (hadn't read down far enough!). It says put the # flush left. Probably doesn't matter much one way or the other. I've now changed all the breaks in my sample chapters. Now to do it in the full manuscript! Arrrhggghhh!!!

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I've seen flush left, too, and it isn't right. Centered is where the # should be because that's where proofreaders and copy editors are trained to look for it, and that's where it's hardest to miss.

I think the flush left thing comes from the fact than many other proofreaders marks are set flush left.

Odds are it'll be fine either way, but centered is the correct way. A # is a proofreaders mark, and like all others, it has a standardized place to be, and this is where those who will handle your book will look first.

#

MidnightMuse said:

Sweating the small stuff will give you hives.

I'm in the ###'s centered camp, but the biggest thing is to be consistent throughout, and check each agent's guidelines to see if they have a preferance, and change accordingly using a global find/replace.

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There really aren't any camps. and this isn't small stuff to the proofreader copy editor, or especially to the typesetter. Nor to the writer when bad things happen in a published book because someone forgot to sweat the small stuff.

To a typesetter, ### means "insert three spaces."

I say there are no camps because all such marks are standard proofreaders' marks that ever copy editor, proofreader, and typesetter out there uses. There's only one set, and it's always used the same way. When you sell a novel, you'll have to use them during the editing stage, and you need to use them the same way the editor does.

I also say there are no camps because all any writer need do to understand how each of these things should be done is to download a set of proofreaders' marks. There are bedozens of good websites that have them, and most print style guides and English grammar books also come with a set.

The wise writer always uses the same symbols his editor, copy editor, proofreader, and typesetter will use, and they all use the same set, in the same manner.

Writers use a proofreaders' mark each time they underline for italics, so why not use one when doing a scene break? It's the only way there is to be certain a typesetter will see it, and know instantly what it means.

Jamesaritchie said:

all any writer need do to understand how each of these things should be done is to download a set of proofreaders' marks.

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There's a set of marks here, along with examples of how they're used, which might be helpful.

I submitted to a publisher that insisted on *** with no spaces.

I used diamonds but if the computer didn't have the font I used they would look funny. SEE! 8 8 8 Those are supposed to be diamonds.

I eventually figured the publisher wanted a standard so it would be easy to search and replace rather than trying to deal with everyone's variances.

blacbird said:

Nothing wrong with this, but be aware that, in a manuscript, if that blank line falls at the end or beginning of a page, it may not be noticed. That's why some sort of symbol is preferable.

caw

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Exactly. The mark means "this should be a blank line." Like blacbird says, if you just put a blank line it could easily be overlooked if one falls at the end of a printed page. By using the mark, you eliminate that potential error. That's what all these things are about: avoiding errors.

Delarege said:

I eventually figured the publisher wanted a standard so it would be easy to search and replace rather than trying to deal with everyone's variances.

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Also right on the money.