A Couple of Questions on Prison & Distances in Victorian England

Anne Stevens · Dec 21, 2006

1. I need to have a character arrested for arson, and also kidnapping and suspect for muder. He is a noble's son, so I imagine that it isn't going to be easy. Here is my question.
Is there any way he would be arrested for those crimes nearly 6 years after they occured? Say, his father was fighting it? (As we all know, whoever has the gold, makes the rules).
Also, is there any way he would be arrested for those crimes, and NOT hanged immediately? He escapes from prison before the death sentence is carried out.

2. Does anyone know how long of a ride it would be from North Yorkshire to the Scottish Lowlands, and then from the Lowlands to the Highlands? This is a ride on horseback, keep in mind.

Thanks in advance for any help!

LloydBrown · Dec 21, 2006

Anne Stevens said:
Also, is there any way he would be arrested for those crimes, and NOT hanged immediately?

The penalty for murder formerly depended on who you were and who you killed, so he might not even be hanged (although this was less the case by Victorian times). He might not be executed at all if you like, and it's possible that he'd have time to escape before his hanging.

I'm sure somebody else can provide you with more useful detail.

Does anyone know how long of a ride it would be from North Yorkshire to the Scottish Lowlands, and then from the Lowlands to the Highlands? This is a ride on horseback, keep in mind.

A good rule of thumb for horseback riding is 25 miles per day. Like with all rules of thumb, the reality varies considerably. Bad roads, bad weather, an old horse, a weak rider, and getting lost can slow you down.

Being chased by a guy with a noose or a gun can speed you up a LOT.

My uninformed estimate: it's about 225 miles to go as directly as possible, but he might have to go out of his way to avoid the river and woods. Let's call it 260 miles...5-10 days, depending on how hard you want him to push it.

ETA: I used York for my starting point and Perth for my destination. The exact distance will vary.

Anne Stevens · Dec 21, 2006

Thank you very much!!

I was planning on using North Yorkshire for their departure, and I was still deciding on the destination point..the closes town over the border would have served them well enough, lol. Thank you so much for the info, though!

LloydBrown · Dec 21, 2006

Anne Stevens said:
I was planning on using North Yorkshire for their departure

Sorry. MapQuest didn't recognize North Yorkshire.

You might want to fiddle with that a bit to get your distances.

waylander · Dec 21, 2006

Your journey times will be hugely dependent on the weather. The main road from the north of England up to Edinburgh on the eastern side of the country follows the coast, any other routes go over some very bleak hills that are even today often closed by bad weather.

As for the legal question - it depends. Which part of the country, which bit of the Victorian era - that's over 60 years in which social practices changed a lot, in particular the organisation of the police
If the defendant's father is a big local dignitary then he might well have a lot of pull with the local magistrates who would be the first tier of criminal justice. Possibly the local magistrate who would not prosecute the boy died or retired and was replaced by someone who would prosecute.

Anne Stevens · Dec 21, 2006

Ok...here's a bit more about the situation.
He is the son of a Lord, a noble but not an especially high ranking one. The plantiff (if it's even called that back then) would be another noble; a Dowager Duchess. So, they both have quite a bit of legal pull. The actual defendant is in line to inherit the title of Duke upon his uncle's death, as his uncle has no living male heirs.
As for the time frame, it is 1830. So, very early Victorian Reign, almost still more Elizabethan.

I plan on the weather being quite fine, clear but cold. No rain or harsh winds or anything overly adverse. They will really only be hindered by the fact that they can't really use main roads, as they are being persued by police. The more that I look at a map, the more I want them to go from Whitehall to Dumfries, which are on the western side of the England/Scotland landmass. It looks like a day or two of hard riding, considering there are no major waylays.

Marlys · Dec 21, 2006

As for the time frame, it is 1830. So, very early Victorian Reign, almost still more Elizabethan.

Yowsa. Get thee to Wikipedia, at once. Elizabeth died in 1603, Victoria doesn't reign until 1837.

In 1830, it was either George IV (to June 26) or William IV (after).

Best of luck with your book, but don't forget the basic research!

waylander · Dec 21, 2006

Anne Stevens said:
Ok...here's a bit more about the situation.
He is the son of a Lord, a noble but not an especially high ranking one. The plantiff (if it's even called that back then) would be another noble; a Dowager Duchess. So, they both have quite a bit of legal pull. The actual defendant is in line to inherit the title of Duke upon his uncle's death, as his uncle has no living male heirs.
As for the time frame, it is 1830. So, very early Victorian Reign, almost still more Elizabethan.

I plan on the weather being quite fine, clear but cold. No rain or harsh winds or anything overly adverse. They will really only be hindered by the fact that they can't really use main roads, as they are being persued by police. The more that I look at a map, the more I want them to go from Whitehall to Dumfries, which are on the western side of the England/Scotland landmass. It looks like a day or two of hard riding, considering there are no major waylays.

The national police service was founded in 1835. The justice system before then was much more in the hands of local magistrates so very much more open to influence by local magnates. You can probably have whatever you want happen by influence of his uncle, the Duke. Particularly if the Duke hasn't blown all his money on gambling/drink/fast women/slow horses.

Where is Whitehall near in Yorkshire? Travelling from N. Yorkshire to Dumfries means crossing the Pennines - a high range of hills with no roads and not much shelter. Not to be undertaken lightly. Pray for good weather for the journey, which would be a lot longer than 'a couple of days'

Anne Stevens · Dec 21, 2006

Whitehall is on the western Shore, you coule cross a small expanse of water and be in Scotland. The water route is the quickest route, though I doubt anyone is going to be standing there with a boat waiting to take them on, lol.

waylander · Dec 21, 2006

Anne Stevens said:
Whitehall is on the western Shore, you coule cross a small expanse of water and be in Scotland. The water route is the quickest route, though I doubt anyone is going to be standing there with a boat waiting to take them on, lol.

From the Cumbrian shore (somewhere near Silloth?) across the Solway Firth would be easy enough. Find a local fisherman and pay him to take them over. Note: It's all sandy beaches on that bit of coast and some very treacherous sandbanks when the tide goes out.

Anne Stevens · Dec 21, 2006

Marlys said:
Yowsa. Get thee to Wikipedia, at once. Elizabeth died in 1603, Victoria doesn't reign until 1837.

In 1830, it was either George IV (to June 26) or William IV (after).

Best of luck with your book, but don't forget the basic research!

HAHAHA *points to her blonde hair* yeah...I do know that. I was talking to a co-worker named Elizabeth, and the name was in my head. I meant more like under George or William's rule. Sorry.

Anne Stevens · Dec 21, 2006

Not near it, but they would certainly be travelling through it. You are a genius!! Thank you!

Marlys · Dec 21, 2006

What I usually do when figuring out travel in my historicals:

1. Get out the road atlas (I bought a AAA Britain Road Atlas for the purpose) and figure out start and end points.

2. Go to MapQuest and get basic mileage and directions (I used to skip this part, then found that most modern roads follow the old roads nicely).

3. Dig up old maps and see if the roads do indeed follow the same paths today, and if not, plot the route on the old map, figuring out which towns they'd stop in along the way.

I can't find Whitehall in my road atlas (unless you mean Whitehaven?), but here is a great link to old maps of Britain which might be of use.

Cath · Dec 21, 2006

The Lowlands to the Highlands could be a reasonably short journey (to just north of Glasgow - less than 100 miles from Dumfries) or a very long one (up to Inverness - over 225 miles).

The roads would be difficult at best - getting worse the further north he goes. Worst, the central belt of Scotland (between Glasgow and Edinburgh) is narrow and densely populated - a real danger area for anyone trying to hide. Any further East or West and he'd have to negotiate crossing the Forth or the Clyde rivers, both busy shipping channels.

The National Library of Scotland has maps viewable on-line from that time period: http://www.nls.uk/maps/early/scotland.html

Anne Stevens · Dec 21, 2006

Cath,

I was thinking Inverness, but I think I'm going to see how the travelling goes, and stop them somewhere else if need be. Thanks for the link!!

LloydBrown · Dec 21, 2006

Of course if time isn't absolutely critical, you could always just use Star Wars time. He leaves one place and then arrives at the other.

kikazaru · Dec 22, 2006

Anne Stevens said:
As for the time frame, it is 1830. So, very early Victorian Reign, almost still more Elizabethan.

I think that you might find some info re the time frame under Regency England. Jane Austen wrote during this time and if you are interested, find some Georgette Heyer to read. Most of her historical romances were set during this period as well as some earlier ones which take place during the Georgian period.

Btw Georgette is considered the grand dame of the Historical Romance, writing her first book around 1921 when she was 19 I believe it was. It was called "The Black Moth."

eta another book that you might be interested in is called "What Jane Austen Wore and Charles Dickens Knew" by Daniel Pool. It is all about 19th century England.

ideagirl · Jan 8, 2007

Anne Stevens said:
The plantiff (if it's even called that back then) would be another noble; a Dowager Duchess.

There is no "plaintiff" in criminal matters in English law. This is a criminal case--he's accused of crimes, he's jailed and he faces the death penalty, therefore it's criminal--so the Crown (capitalized), i.e. the government, would prosecute it. The duchess may be the person wronged, but she's not actually bringing the case, nor is she necessarily involved in it. Presumably she would use her clout to help persuade the Crown to go after him, but she couldn't go after him herself, nor would she have a formal role (e.g., plaintiff) in the case.

I'm giving you the general picture here (I'm a law student with a passing familiarity with English law). To get your details right, you'll need to read up. I suggest looking for British novels from the first half of the 19th century that have a legal/crime theme--that will be more dramatic and interesting to read than encyclopedias.

A Couple of Questions on Prison & Distances in Victorian England

Anne Stevens

LloydBrown

Anne Stevens

LloydBrown

waylander

Who's going for a beer?

Anne Stevens

Marlys

Resist. Love. Go outside.

waylander

Who's going for a beer?

Anne Stevens

waylander

Who's going for a beer?

Anne Stevens

Anne Stevens

Marlys

Resist. Love. Go outside.

Cath

The mean one

Anne Stevens

LloydBrown

kikazaru

Benefactor Member

ideagirl