Forgiveness or Lack Thereof

I think it is parted of the dreaded fantasy relating to abusive men, non-consensual sex and general cave-man behavior which I have never understood. But them my fantasy man is pretty much at the other end of the scale. The territory between alpha male and asshat seems to be getting very blurry.

Now, before I started reading actual romance novels, I read, I'll admit, copious amounts of romantic fanfiction (from assorted series). Frequently I saw stories where the male would capture and imprison the female, and basically force himself on her until she liked it--and I wanted to scream and rant at these authors that they'd turned their heroes into no better than the villains, and there was no way in hell a real girl would forgive any of this. If it'd been a paper book I'd have thrown it down in disgust. I figured that these had to be written by totally inexperienced kids who'd never been in a real relationship, but then I picked up my first kind of real romance novels, and found the same thing happening.

I couldn't believe it. I didn't think that kind of thing could get published, at least not as romance, but it does. Treading alone the lines of the non-consensual fantasy can, I'll admit, be steamy, but for some reason there are a lot of authors that can't seem to see that they're not walking the line, they're way down on the other end of the field. And somehow, perversion gets mistaken for passion, and sexual abuse gets mistaken for seduction. I've seen heroes who, if it weren't for the fact that they were meant to get together with the heroine, would totally be arrested as rapists and stalkers and crazy possessive freaks. But, he screwed her till she likes it, so now its okay.

The thing is, they're playing on aspects that, when done properly, can be romantic. But they're blown up and twisted totally the wrong way. Like, lets say we've got a paranormal romance (sorry folks, thats what I read, so thats where I get my examples XD ) and the hero has possessive animal instincts over the girl--he gets jealous around other guys and wants to protect her from them. Okay. Cool. Maybe he even has to fight his instincts, out of consideration for the girl. Me, I find this kinda romantic.

And then lets say we've got another paranormal hero, who not only has possessive animal instincts, but is totally run by them, to the extent that he doesn't give a damn about what the girl wants any more, so long as she belongs to him. And he'll MAKE her his.

Now we're treading in crazy stalker territory.

I swear, sometimes there'll even be a character in the story designated as the 'bad guy', who wants the girl for himself, and while the heroes actions are cast in a different light, they're really just as bad as the bad guys! The only real difference between him and the hero is that the hero is described as hot.

I don't read books where the so-called hero is abusive, so I can't comment on its prevalence in current books, but the issue that I find interesting is how fine a line there is between the stalker and the persistent, alpha-male lover.

If someone the heroine is grossed out by ignores "no," and keeps pestering her (not all the way to rape, but just continuing to ask her out on a date), it's stalking. OTOH, the behavior of a lot of heroes (and not just the icky ones) is not all that different if viewed from the outside, in the sense that the heroine says "no, I'm not interested in you," but the reader knows she is attracted despite her words, and so the reader is pleased when the hero doesn't accept his dismissal but keeps pursuing her. OTOH, if the reader didn't know that the heroine was grossed out by the one and aroused by the other, the objective behavior would be very similar.

Anyway, it is tricky. And the critics think writing romance is easy. Sheesh.

JD

JanDarby said:

Anyway, it is tricky. And the critics think writing romance is easy. Sheesh.

JD

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Amen! Writing good, believable romance is not easy!

Interesting... <making copious notes> Okay, so here's a question for you all: Define "seduction."

Here's the Webster's New World Unabridged (1932) definition to get you started:

se-duc-tion. the enticement of a female to unlawful sexual intercourse without the use of force through trickery, lies or false promises.

Obviously, "unlawful" doesn't mean much in today's world. But does tricking, lying or making false promises count toward unforgivable behavior? In other words, other than direct, honest discussion, how would a man seduce a woman?

Cathy C said:

Here's the Webster's New World Unabridged (1932) definition to get you started:

se-duc-tion. the enticement of a female to unlawful sexual intercourse without the use of force through trickery, lies or false promises.

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Hm. Interesting that a man couldn't be seduced back in the 30s...

I checked to make sure the modern definition is gender equal! (It's also lawful now, apparently.)

MR

sunandshadow said:

So anyway, my question is - why is a writer motivated to write this kind of thing?

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Because somebody wants to read it. When nobody wants to read it, they'll stop writing it. Or at least they'll stop publishing it. Okay, they'll stop selling it.

The abusive issue aside, isn't it true that a lot of romance has as heroes characters normal people would abhor in real life? Even the classic stuff: look at the dog-hanging, grave-digging Mr. Heathcliff. Look at the manipulative, needling Mr. Rochester. Look at the arrogant, belittling Mr. Darcy. Look at the obssessive, adulterous freak in The English Patient. I think what it comes down to is that, for some women, what appeals to them in fantasy is not actually what would appeal to them in real life. The other thing that appeals to many readers is the fantasy that the woman has the power to reform and redeem a man. That's where Darcy and Rochester fit in, but Heathcliff--geez, I have no idea. Yet, when I was a teen, that "hero" appealed to me. I find the character abhorrent now that I am an adult.

I have never read any book like this. (And I don't think I'm missing much either!) Just out of morbid curiosity, what kind of romance novels have this kind of "hero"? I read mostly romantic suspense, and some "sweet" romances, and even some of the saucy kind, but haven't run across it in those.

I think if I hadn't seen this thread and another one that discussed it recently, I would have a heart attack coming across something like that in a romance novel. What are people thinking???

But I do remember Heathcliff - vaguely - from high school and was enamored. Was he one of those guys?

ltd.

This could possibly be the whole bad guy's are hot scenario, or even possibly the rape fetish. Some people like the idea of losing control of the situation and being dominated. Not that I'm saying rape is a forgivable offense, but under controlled situations it can be a turn on. I recently wrote a story about a woman who was a assassin, who was contracted to kill a serial kidnapper. She was taken by this guy forced to do some stuff and found she liked it. Now granted she knew what she was getting into and what possibly could have happened to her, but I'm just saying some people like to be dominated.

skylarburris said:

I think what it comes down to is that, for some women, what appeals to them in fantasy is not actually what would appeal to them in real life.

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This is me. I read a lot of literary fiction, so every so often I feel that if I read one more dinner party/banquet scene or see the word "suburban" one more time, I'll go mad. Sometimes, I want to read something different, about people I might run from in real life -- like the Phineas Poe trilogy (not romance, but there is a love story).

skylarburris said:

The other thing that appeals to many readers is the fantasy that the woman has the power to reform and redeem a man.

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This has been cool ever since "women tamed the Wild West." It's great to fantasize that we have that much control over the world. I think this whole deal comes down to why you're reading a particular book in the first place. Is it for escape? Is it to live a different life through the protagonist in a more "I'd do this in real life" sort of way? Very different angles to come from. It's a matter of taste. Some of us don't like violence in romance, some of us don't like "sweet" romance. Nothing wrong with either, IMO.

I know that there are times when this style of book really appeals to me, usually when I am disgusted with my real dating life. If I am coming off a bad date or relationship where I was smarter, more sucessful, where I was the one asking the questions and driving the relationship and having to make the plans and...

you get the idea.

Then I love a historical where the hero knows what he wants and takes it, but for me I usually feel that if I had that guy he wouldn't be as 'bad' as he is in the book since I am (of corse) smarter and more together and a modern woman, unlike the heroine. Riiiiiiiiiight.

Then the urge passes, usually when I am about half way through the book, and I am disguested with myself for wanting, even breifly, a man to solve all my problems.

limitedtimeauthor said:

But I do remember Heathcliff - vaguely - from high school and was enamored. Was he one of those guys?

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Well, he was one of those guys who sought vengeance against the woman he loved by trying to make her jealous by marrying another woman and slowly destroying his wife through psychological abuse. He was one of those guys who took his wife-to-be's little puppy and hung it from a tree (just to let her know what she was getting into), and she still married him. And, if I'm not mistaken, I believe he dug up Catherine's grave, but I might be mis-remembering that part. He was a psychopath, really. How did he become a romantic hero?

This is what I mean by fantasy vs. real life. In real life, I think women would be repulsed (or at the very least annoyed) by many romantic "heroes" they find attractive in fiction.

'Forced Seduction' in romance makes me nauseous. I call it 'Rape her till she likes it' and I will never, ever read anything that even touches on this idea. Why anyone, man or woman, would ever want to read such a thing is completely beyond me. There is very little I won't touch on in my writing, but I would never even mention this. Now I don't shy away from rape, but for heavens sake its the bad guys doing it!

If the fantasy writers are trying to play into is one of losing control, than this is truly a poor execution of the idea. One of the hottest love scenes in my WIP comes from one of my heroines completely losing control. She knows she shouldn't do it, but she just can't help herself because she finds him so attractive. There is absolutely nothing forced about it. In fact, there couldn't be, since she's a trained warrior and could kick his butt! Surely there is more of a power rush for the hero, knowing that a woman like that is unable to resist him, then there would be from forcing some weak woman to do something she doesn't want.

Whenever I read anything involving forced seduction all I can think about is the graphic and excruciatingly painful way my heroines would go about castrating the 'hero'!

Oh, and to answer the OPs question: you're not missing anything because this has no appeal. IMO anyway. (Clearly some people disagree, since it keeps getting published. Proves there's hope for all of us )

Why anyone, man or woman, would ever want to read such a thing is completely beyond me.

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It's not just reading. Remember that the "Luke and Laura" plot on General Hospital has been the longest standing romance of daytime television. Luke started out kidnapping, then raping, then letting Laura go before falling in love with her. It's very pervasive.

So, again--how do each of YOU define "seduction?"

There are a thousand different ways people can seduce each other. I'm personally a fan of mutual seduction. By the time they actually end up in bed, neither the hero or heroine could resist the other.

I'll just list a couple of the ways I use in my current WIP. Like I said, there's almost limitless ways to seduce.
1. She is able to intuitively understand his feelings toward events without him explaining them even though they just met.
2. He is completely unable to predict her reactions to things. He finds this incredibly intriguing.
3. He doesn't take advantage of her blatant offer of sex, even though he's very attracted to her.

Basically, I think feeling that some understands and respects you is very attractive, particularly when you're use to being treated just the opposite.

Obviously, this is going to be different for each set of characters, since no two people find the exact same set of things attractive. I think that if you've done a good job creating compatible charactors, the seduction will happen automatically from both sides.

Okay, so you define "seduction" as what used to be called "wooing" or "romancing." Interesting. Anyone else?

Ok I'm going to jump in w/ my 2 cents. The only way I can justify this is the old bad boy syndrome.
Kind of like that guy on Lost, Sawyer (I'm crazy about his chara) . He's rude, obnoxious, really a bad boy...but he exudes charm....And it's working!

I guess I've never thought about it too much. I remember reading reviews on Amazon.com about WHITNEY MY LOVE by Judith McNaught and how people were SO angry about the rape scene in the book.

I dunno. I guess it didn't bother me, because it fit the book well. A lot of it has to deal with the 'bad boy' image and how the heroine must 'redeem' him (aka, gentle him) to be the ideal husband.

Just like in most romance novels, most of the heroes have been with about a bajillion girls. It works that he's a 'rake' in a romance, but in reality, it just sounds gross.

I just kinda take it all with a grain of salt. Most historicals are not meant to be hard-and-fast reality anyway, are they?

(And was that an unintentional pun? Oy.)

Re: Heathcliffe

skylarburris said:

How did he become a romantic hero?

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This is why I ocul dnever understand why this is so often called one of the greatest ove stories in literature, This was in no way love. It is a totally sick relationship. If that;s what people want to read then OK, but please, please don't call it love.