What does YA consist of?

karo.ambrose said:

Yeah, dumb question, right? Books for young adults. But what makes a YA book content and storytelling wise different from a book for adults? Can you have sex scenes? Graphic imagery? Profanity? Is there a certain way a story is told in YA lit?

For scifi/fantasy, what are the general differences b/w a book marketed as YA and a book marketed for adults? They both have crazy creatures and make believe lands and wild and wacky things. But which wild and wacky things are okay for adults and not for young adults or vice versa?

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There is very little difference between YA books at the top end of the YA market (otherwise known as crossover books) and adult fantasy. That's why authors like Garth Nix, Terry Pratchett, Neil Gaiman and Robin McKinley seem to slip backwards and forwards over this line effortlessly. Not to mention Holly Black, Melvin Burgess, David Almond, Annette Curtis Klausen... I'm not saying there is NO difference, but it's one of instinct mostly. Read books by those authors I've mentioned and you'll see protagonists drink, smoke, do drugs, have sex, kill people - and have fun doing it. My advice (oft repeated) is to read something of the genre (those authors I've just mentioned would be a good start) and see if you yourself can percieve the difference, other than the protagonists generally (but not always) being a bit younger in years.

Oh - and Ursula K Le Guin. Can't believe I forgot UKL - read UKL.

Pretty much anything goes in YA these days, content-wise.

What tends to be different is that YA books tend to be less subtle in the writing. Scenes tend to be more melodramatic. There tends to be less subtext in exchanges of dialogue. And the writing tends to spell out what's happening in great detail--thus the profusion of adverbs (and adverbial dialogue tags) in many YA novels.

Some time back, I had an agent read a partial featuring a fifteen-year-old protagonist and narrator. I never suggested in my query letter that this was anything but an adult, mainstream novel, but the agent asked for a full read of my "intriguing YA novel."

I knew then that I was in trouble, since the book is about a young adult, but isn't really YA in style, pace, or theme. There was a time when the explicit sex scene in the first chapter would have given a clear message that this wasn't YA; but no longer. (As expected, he wrote back to me that the book as a whole was "too adult." Sigh.)

In any case, I don't think there are bars any longer on what topics can be included in a YA book. But there are differences in how the topics are treated.

UrsusMinor said:

What tends to be different is that YA books tend to be less subtle in the writing. Scenes tend to be more melodramatic. There tends to be less subtext in exchanges of dialogue. And the writing tends to spell out what's happening in great detail--thus the profusion of adverbs (and adverbial dialogue tags) in many YA novels.

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Sorry, but...wrong, wrong, wrong. YA novels can be just as subtle, just as emotionally balanced and just as beautifully and competantly written as the best novels in any other genre (they can also be just as bad as the worst in any other genre, but hopefully one judges a genre by its best, not its worst). Replace the word 'YA' with the word 'Historical' or 'Fantasy/Science Fiction' or 'literary' in that paragraph and you realise how ridiculous it is to generalise so sweepingly.

Timothy Zahn has a YA sf-series out now.

I'd say the themes tend to be more juvenile, as in issues related to being a younger person. Growing up, finding your place, learning how to be 'adult', etc. Less "problems with divorce", "taking care of your kids", etc.

karo.ambrose said:

I am debating as to whether or not my MS is YA or not, so I kind of want to get a clearer picture as to what defines YA Sci Fi.

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Did you write it with a YA audience in mind? What about it suggests that it might be YA, rather than adult?

Oh and to completely throw you for a loop, IIRC Uncle Jim mentioned that he was thinking about having/getting his _Mageworld_ series re-imprinted for YA, as the readership letters seem to be more teen-focused. So books can perhaps also ebb-and-flow over that border some.

The next time you are in your local bookstore, trying this little exercise:

Pick up four or five titles in the YA section that sound similar to what you are writing. Take them all to a comfty chair (or the cafe, or anyplace you can sit down for a while), or if you are feeling extravagent, buy them. Read a few chapters of each. Try to pick out the elements that make them different from the adult books you are used to reading. What elements are similar to your novel?

Sometimes seeing things for yourself makes more sense than what others can tell you.

I know the Harry Potter series was considered YA and became a crossover. I read Pratchett and can see where he can slip back and forth -- big fuss amongst his fans when his first Discworld "children's" book came out because, well, it was a Discworld book and all his readers loved it -- there was truly no difference in his writing and it could have easily been marketed as just another regular Discworld book and sold.

I'm kind of with KA though, on wondering if I'm marketing my book wrong and should be trying for the YA market. The only thing I've noticed is that YA does seem to have younger main protagonists. But, is that a be-all, end-all? Can you sell a book as YA if the main protags are adults?

Zolah said:

YA novels can be just as subtle, just as emotionally balanced and just as beautifully and competantly written as the best novels in any other genre

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Yes, as you say, they can.

And as I said above, they tend to be less subtle, and tend (read JK Rowling) to be more adverbial. (And I'm not complaining about JK Rowling. Her style is quite appropriate for what she is doing.)

I don't think that saying a class of things tends in a certain direction relative to another class of things can be characterized as a "sweeping generalization."

For example, if someone asked me what the differences were between literary novels and romance novels, one of the things I would mention is that most literary novels tend to concentrate on the stylish use of language more than most romance novels do. Is that a sweeping generalization? Does it mean that no romance has ever been written in stylish language.

Am I on shaky ground when I say that so-called Hard Science Fiction tends to concentrate less on relationships than Chick Lit does?

In addition, since fantasies, mysteries, and romances are all sold into the YA market, I'm not sure YA is a 'genre.'

The person who started this thread asked what the difference was between YA and adult fiction. Since not all YA fiction has young protagonists (though I would argue that it tends to), then if there are no differences in emotional complexity, subtext, subject matter, or use of language, I guess the only difference between YA fiction on average and adult fiction on average is where Barnes and Noble happened to shelve them.

karo.ambrose said:

BTW, are any of those books sci fi? I want to read something that crosses the line b/w young adult and adult in terms of context/language/message etc in the sci fi genre. I am debating as to whether or not my MS is YA or not, so I kind of want to get a clearer picture as to what defines YA Sci Fi.

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The difference between SF & F in YA is often a bit blurred, but I'd recommend M T Anderston (particularly 'Feed'). That's pure SF and brilliant.

UrsusMinor said:

The person who started this thread asked what the difference was between YA and adult fiction. Since not all YA fiction has young protagonists (though I would argue that it tends to), then if there are no differences in emotional complexity, subtext, subject matter, or use of language, I guess the only difference between YA fiction on average and adult fiction on average is where Barnes and Noble happened to shelve them.

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That's basically it, in many cases - where the books are shelved. And some books (Mark Haddon, Garth Nix) get shelved in both areas at the same time, only with different covers. In general YA does feature younger protagonists than much adult fiction - that's because one key feature of the YA genre is that alongside the other genre preoccupations (SF, Romance etc) it usually also attempts to address the experience of being a young adult. Of course, quite a lot of adult literature features young protagonists as well, or addresses a coming of age theme, so often it is very difficult for someone unfamiliar with YA to tell the difference. The only cure for that confusion is to read widely in YA - I don't get confused often myself because the way a person writes ABOUT young adults is often subtly different from the way someone writes FOR young adults.

And I feel I do have to address this point: if I say that chicklit novels TEND to focus more on relationships than hard SF does, or that historical novels TEND to be longer than literary ones, I'm commenting on certain known features of a given genre. What I'm not doing is passing judgement on the quality of the genre itself. I'm not saying thar chicklit TENDS to be less well written than hard SF - and if you didn't mean terms like 'melodramatic', 'less subtle' or 'using more adverbs' to be indications of bad writing you shouldn't have used them here in a writer's forum where such terms are often used as synonyms for 'bad writing'. There is an attitude among many people (who are not familiar with children's or YA writing) that children's books must be EXPECTED to be less subtle and less well written than their adult counterparts. That young adults or children don't need fine writing or don't appreciate it. That is an insult to both children and the children's authors who strive to produce their literature. Please don't wave J K Rowling around as an example - as many adults as children read her books anyway, and it's acknowledged by most that though she is a great story-teller, she is nowhere near the top of the pile when it comes to writing quality in the Ch's or YA genres. Read Jan Mark, M.T. Anderson, Sonya Hartnet, Mark Haddon, Garth Nix, Terry Pratchett, Robin McKinley, Meg Rosoff, Diana Wynne Jones, David Almond, Ann Halam, Melvin Burgess, Phillip Pullman, and you will see that the finest writers of YA literature equal and exceed the quality of their opposites in any adult genre.

I write in both YA and Women's and about the only thing I do when I write YA is cut a titch of the prose down. I have six kids, and four are teenagers more than willing to tell me what sucks and what should stay.

I've told this before, but it might be new to some here

My first novel with a 12-yr-old narrator was written for adults and marketed by my agent as such. The major pub houses passed with compliments (and none of the rejections was made because it was too YA). Then my agent sits down with the editorial director of a YA, mentions the novel, the editor said sure, he'd have a read, and he loved it and bought it. I had to edit out some sub-plots but basically the story stayed the same.

This is how I became a YA writer by default.

karo.ambrose said:

When I send out queries, what genre do I use, since my novel is both Sci Fi and YA? Should I call it "YA science fiction"?

Probably a dumb question, but I'm full of them.

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Keep asking -- I'm in the same boat (fantasy versus sci fi) and have no clue! Thanks for starting this thread, btw!

karo.ambrose said:

When I send out queries, what genre do I use, since my novel is both Sci Fi and YA? Should I call it "YA science fiction"?

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You could send half of the queries as straight sci fi, and half as YA (the same way different versions of new products, services and advertising are marketed in test cities).

And good luck either way!

Zolah said:

That's basically it, in many cases - where the books are shelved...

...[A]nd you will see that the finest writers of YA literature equal and exceed the quality of their opposites in any adult genre.

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Well, there you go, Karo. The answer to your original question in great specificity: There is "basically" no difference between YA novels and other novels--except that YA novels are at least as high or higher in quality than corresponding novels written for adults.

Where this leaves what I had always thought were the classic examples of of great literature is a puzzle. But I now know that, whatever author I name, at least one YA novelist has surpassed that writer's best work.

To think of the years I wasted on Tolstoy, Bellow, Updike, Melville, Amis, Atwood, Vonnegut, Roth...

karo.ambrose said:

What if the agent represents YA, but doesn't represent sci fi?

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IMHO, you want an agent who reps YA *and* SFF. (Do a PM search to see what they've sold.) Just listing YA could mean they do contemp or problem novels. YA is like adult: it's not a narrow term. GIven the choice, I'd sort by genre first (SFF) then see which of those rep adult and YA both.

My agent tends to rep more fantasy than other genres. She was looking for YA. The two details together put her at a higher spot on my agent chart--when I was shopping--than an agent who did one or the other. The editor she found for me tends to edit a number of fantasy texts, including one author who leaves me in awe. The point here is that by representing fantasy authors my agent had a better idea of where to shop the text.

karo.ambrose said:

I read on Ginger Clark's discussion on AW that YA should only be between 40-60k words. This is a problem for me because my novel runs at 85k (plus 5k for a possible, but not necessary prologue/epilogue). Do you think this number is universal for a first-time writer?

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My debut novel rolled in at 76K. I think YA fantasy runs a bit higher in number than YA contemporary, just as adult fantasy might run higher than contemp adult.

Good luck.

I don't know if this applies to YA as well as children's fiction but I once heard a writing expert (sorry, can't remember who,) advise that you can lead children into the darkness but you must lead them back out again by the end of the book.

I always find myself writing this, so sorry to those who already have read it. Can get mundane. My MG, which is typically supposed to be even shorter than a YA, has sold at 85 000 words. My agent did however make me cut it down from 97 000. So I think as long as there are the correct number of words to tell your story, that's all you need to worry about.

As for YA Sci-Fi? I think that would be the perfect way of describing the book. Like Melissa said, it's important to be specific. I think your book sounds more Sci-Fi to fantasy. What do others think?

oh! so it means "Young Adult". Really. The way everyone in the forums had been talking about it I really did think YA just meant a straightforward style that was much less artistic in nature, rather it was just for the fun of writing or reading it in the end. You know, as if you were shouting "YA!"

I was poorly misinformed, but really, it seemed to me that YA novels got a bad rap quality-wise. Hope everyone realizes that the audience does not have a direct correlation on quality, simply style or content. Besides, I will add in that some of the greatest works can be appreciated on many different levels, just as the best Young Adult novels can have deep value as a "mature" piece of work, even without mature content.

Let's keep YA, C, and A simply at a level of who the author is expecting to read this book most.