The experts are lying

Norman D Gutter said:

Obviously Wal-Mart is not a real bookstore. Then again, they only stock books they believe are going to appeal to the widest possible readership, and do an incredible job of tracking sales, and so know what tends to sell.

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I'd try it again in a real bookstore. Wal-Mart is about as far from real as you can get. I wouldn't count on finding a single ordinary midlist book in Wal-Mart.

And, the experts have always been allowed to break the rules. Any good book about the craft of writing will tell you to learn the rules first, then break them after you've mastered them. By then, you'll know how to break them.

By the way, experts are also allowed to write 850-page novels, something that a newcomer would almost never be allowed to do.

I'm not supposed to write in 1st person? Who made that rule?

Just to clarify, "the experts" don't say don't write a prologue, they just say that no one reads them. Which is true. What they say is, don't put information vital to understanding the novel in the prologue, because then people will be lost.


The experts don't say, "don't write in first person" they say, don't head jump. Some experts say they don't particularly like first person. Others say they don't particularly like third person. But that's preference, not law.

Who are these experts exactly? I'm not exactly expecting the Spanish Inquisition here...


(DUNNNNNN!!!!!)

(NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!)

Here's the thing, though. A lot of people who decide they want to be writers just aren't that good. And many of the things "the experts" warn against aren't newbie mistakes so much as newbie crutches. When you get to the point you aren't using 1st person, prologues, etc as a crutch but as the strong narrative tools they are, then it's no longer "prohibited."

Haha. I was going to ask that, but I figured it was coming soon enough.

Our chief weapon is surprise. Surprise and fear. Fear and surprise. Our TWO weapons are fear and surprise and a ruthless efficiency. AMONGST our weaponry are such diverse elements as fear, surprise, a ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.

Arrgh!

I'll come in again.

You're worried entirely too much about what some group's opinion and less about writing.

Whichever group you're listening too--uh--they're full of poodle-doo.

Norman D Gutter said:

Last Friday evening we went to Wal-Mart to purchase gifts for a gift exchange. While my wife took 60 minutes to complete what I did in 3, I took time to look through the book section. I read somewhere that a good exercise is to go into a bookstore and read the first sentence or paragraph of as many novels as you can, to see what the openings of published books are like, and to learn from them.

So I went to the best sellers rack, and read the openings of about 20 books, with authors such as King, Koontz, Roberts, Lewis, etc. To my surprise, more than half of them had prologues, and more than 2/3 of them were in first person. Now, other advice given by experts (editors, agents, and published writers) seems to unanimously be: don’t write in first person unless third person limited really, really doesn’t work; and don’t use a prologue unless you really, really know what you are doing. I have heard those two pieces of advice over and over again till I’m sick of hearing/reading them.

So I thought, the best selling authors can do what they want, and are probably better at these techniques than us wannabes, so naturally you would see these techniques used more by them and more successfully. So I went to the other shelves, the non-best sellers, and did the same thing. I was surprised to find that the numbers were close. Out of 20 or so non-best sellers, half were in first person, and close to half had a prologue. Obviously Wal-Mart is not a real bookstore. Then again, they only stock books they believe are going to appeal to the widest possible readership, and do an incredible job of tracking sales, and so know what tends to sell. I might add that the genres checked on both shelves were wide ranging, including fantasy, thrillers, romances, westerns, etc.

My conclusion: The experts are lying to us, talking us out of using writing techniques that sell best, so as to reserve shelf space for themselves as they use the very techniques they talk us out of using.

NDG
P.S. I was so shocked, I couldn’t even concentrate on the effectiveness of the first sentences/paragraphs, so I guess I’ll have to do this all over again.

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poodle doo, huh? Nice.

Shadow_Ferret said:

Our chief weapon is surprise. Surprise and fear. Fear and surprise. Our TWO weapons are fear and surprise and a ruthless efficiency. AMONGST our weaponry are such diverse elements as fear, surprise, a ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.

Arrgh!

I'll come in again.

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[The cardinals burst in]
Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms - Oh damn!
[To Cardinal Biggles] I can't say it - you'll have to say it.
Biggles: What?
Ximinez: You'll have to say the bit about 'Our chief weapons are ...'
Biggles: [rather horrified]: I couldn't do that...

I was going to do my first page of my novel as a prologue; it's set in the present... A top Policeman walking away from a Police enquiry and being faced by the media and how he feels about it inside of himself etc. The rest of the book describes the situation, over nearly 4 years of it, of how he actually got there. I suppose it'll just have to be one solitary page for chapter 1 then.

Ellie

My novel has a prologue which is a parable, which gives away the whole entire ending of the book and all sorts of clues for How Things Work....if you can figure it out. Otherwise, it's just a parable.

Or set in italics at the start of chapter one. I've seen that done effectively.


:edit: because down is a direction, and done is not.

experts

I've never heard anyone I'd consider an expert say you shouldn;t write a prologue, and I think statements saying people don't read them are pure foolishness. Some people find reasons not to read this, not to read that, and not to read the other. But in truth, books with prologues do just as well, have just as many fans, and are just as pleasureable to read, as books without them.

It is not always wise to get advice from experts, or form wannabe writers. They share a side of the desk most readers don't give a rat's whiskers about, and the same old saws go back and forth, regardless of how much truth they hold with the reading public.

As for first person, it's always been extremely popular with the reading public. The reason most agents and editors warn against first person is not becaue the reading public doesn't want it, but because first person is much, much more difficult for most new writers to do well than is third person limited.

First person seems so natural, so easy to write, that agents and editors are often deluged with first person novels. But it is not easy to write well, at least without some experience. Certainly not without reading a lot of good first person novels.

And this may be the big rub. Many who try writing first person do not spend a lot of time reading it, and if you don't read it often, it's very difficult to write it well.

There's nothing at all new about finding many books of the shelves written in first person. It does depend on genre, some have a great deal more first person than others, it's common as dirt in the mystery field, the western field, and teh literary field, but every genre has its first person novels, and it's been this way for a long, long time. Huckleberry Finn, Moby Dick, and Catcher in the Rye are all first person novels.

But it can be tough for a new writer to tackle, and one who does needs to first read a bunch of first person novels.

As for Wal-Mart, it certainly is real world. They carry books the reading public wants, including quite a few midliest writers.

And if you look at a plain old bookstore, you find the same thing, and the same novels. Lots of novels, including many bestsellers, written in first person, and many very good novels with prologues.

The best way to know what the reading public wants is to check the racks, not to listen to the "experts."

The whole "dont' read prologues" drives me bugshit. Do they also not read odd numbered chapters? or Chapter fours? But only on Tuesday, or at night, unless it's raining?

Norman D Gutter said:

Last Friday evening we went to Wal-Mart to purchase gifts for a gift exchange. While my wife took 60 minutes to complete what I did in 3, I took time to look through the book section. I read somewhere that a good exercise is to go into a bookstore and read the first sentence or paragraph of as many novels as you can, to see what the openings of published books are like, and to learn from them.

So I went to the best sellers rack, and read the openings of about 20 books, with authors such as King, Koontz, Roberts, Lewis, etc. To my surprise, more than half of them had prologues, and more than 2/3 of them were in first person. Now, other advice given by experts (editors, agents, and published writers) seems to unanimously be: don’t write in first person unless third person limited really, really doesn’t work; and don’t use a prologue unless you really, really know what you are doing. I have heard those two pieces of advice over and over again till I’m sick of hearing/reading them.

So I thought, the best selling authors can do what they want, and are probably better at these techniques than us wannabes, so naturally you would see these techniques used more by them and more successfully. So I went to the other shelves, the non-best sellers, and did the same thing. I was surprised to find that the numbers were close. Out of 20 or so non-best sellers, half were in first person, and close to half had a prologue. Obviously Wal-Mart is not a real bookstore. Then again, they only stock books they believe are going to appeal to the widest possible readership, and do an incredible job of tracking sales, and so know what tends to sell. I might add that the genres checked on both shelves were wide ranging, including fantasy, thrillers, romances, westerns, etc.

My conclusion: The experts are lying to us, talking us out of using writing techniques that sell best, so as to reserve shelf space for themselves as they use the very techniques they talk us out of using.

NDG
P.S. I was so shocked, I couldn’t even concentrate on the effectiveness of the first sentences/paragraphs, so I guess I’ll have to do this all over again.

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Now repeat the exercise pulling out ONLY debut novels.

An expert who tells you not to write in first person is not an expert. Ditto for anyone who tells you that people don't read prologues.

Dance, dance, dance on the head of that pin...dance, writer, dance...

- Victoria

Norman D Gutter said:

Now, other advice given by experts (editors, agents, and published writers) seems to unanimously be: don’t write in first person unless third person limited really, really doesn’t work; and don’t use a prologue unless you really, really know what you are doing.

Click to expand...

I've never heard, "don't write in first person." A lot of readers seem to prefer first person. I have heard you shouldn't use a prologue, just as you should not do anything, unless you really, really know what you're doing.

You compared best-sellers to non-best sellers. But even non-best-sellers are published novelists. That still proves that they know what they're doing. It's not really the same thing as comparing it to an unpublished writer.

Out of curiosity, how many of those are established authors, and how many are first-timers? That may have something to do with it, as well.

What motive do the experts have to lie?

And which experts, exactly?

I'm one of the people who says don't put anything in your prologue that the readers will need, because many will skip the prologue.

Another problem with prologues is that the reader may start to identify/sypathize with the main character in that prologue, then have to do it all over again if the main character in the entire novel is someone else.

It's easy, in first person, to slip into a Mary Sue.

I've done prologues. Lots of 'em. I've also written in first person, lots of times. My main advice is this: Whatever you do, do it well.

Shadow_Ferret said:

I'm not supposed to write in 1st person? Who made that rule?

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"I'm not supposed to write in 1st person?" he asked. "Who made that rule?"

Get it right.

Yes, I'm sure the experts have all gotten together to forge some conspiracy to keep the unpublished hordes out of the club...

They totally have time in their day for that between jobs and contracts and families.

You know the secret member's only area of SFWA? That's what the experts do in there: plot everyone else's failure.

Norman D Gutter said:

Now, other advice given by experts (editors, agents, and published writers) seems to unanimously be: don’t write in first person unless third person limited really, really doesn’t work; and don’t use a prologue unless you really, really know what you are doing. I have heard those two pieces of advice over and over again till I’m sick of hearing/reading them.

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I read prologues, because I figure they must be in books for some good reason.

In fact, I just read one recently, a paranormal romance (a first for me), that had a great prologue - the writing was absolutely beautiful, and it imparted a lot of backstory (although not everything) in about 3 pages. It explained a lot of stuff going on in the "main part" of the story without resorting to scratching my head as to why the MCs were going to all the bother of their quest for a certain jewel.

As for first person...it's whatever works for that particular story. As others have said, what you've heard are just guidelines. None of these "rules" are set in cement. If you can pull it off, by all means, go for it!

Good luck.

~Nancy

Only more of it

Shadow_Ferret said:

Our chief weapon is surprise. Surprise and fear. Fear and surprise. Our TWO weapons are fear and surprise and a ruthless efficiency. AMONGST our weaponry are such diverse elements as fear, surprise, a ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.

Arrgh!

I'll come in again.

Click to expand...

...nothing quite like ALMOST fanatical devotion. And adherence to the 4 principles of spleniological analysis: the pragmatic, the syntagmatic, the aromatic and the just plan matic. The last is almost automatic.