questions from a non-poet

moth said:

Hi all! I've lurked around the poetry forum for a while and this looks like such a wonderful place! I'd love to join in but I stink at poetry. I stink at everything about poetry except reading it. I like it, but I don't get it. At least I don't seem to get out of it what others get out of it. I've read some of the poetry critiques here and all I can make heads or tails of are things like rhyme and meter. The "feel" of poems, or what I'm supposed to think about after having read a piece -- that's what eludes me. I'm usually left scratching my head after reading poems.

Sorry....I'm very curious and as I said, a little lost.

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Oh, this is a great list of questions. Welcome to the poetry boards.

Ok, some of this is just my opinion, but what you get out of poetry is not always what someone else gets. You are obviously getting something out of reading poetry. What is that you enjoy? What kind of poetry do you like to read? There are going to be certain types of poetry that you "get" more than others. (And that goes for all of us. ) The best place to start with poetry is to start with what speaks to you. Find the type of poetry that you identify with best - the style, the form, the general feel, etc. - and work within that frame. Pick them apart; see what it is that appeals to you. Then write. Don't worry about perfection. Just write.

moth said:

So I'm feeling kind of lost. I'd love to try writing some poetry myself but I feel like I need to be a better poetry reader first. So -- where do you look for clues in a poem as to what it's about?

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This is hard to answer. Some poems hit you with a 2x4, whereas others just tickle something in the back of your mind. It all depends upon the poet, the poem, and the reader.

moth said:

Does it just take practice to get the "feel" of poems?

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If, by "feel", you mean rhyme and meter, yes it takes practice. There is a thread around here (I think) on poetry books, specifically, "How-to" or exercise books. I'll look around and bump it if I can find it.

moth said:

Do all poems have themes? What does a poet set out to do when they write a poem?

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Sometimes I write with a specific topic in mind. Other times, the words just come and the topic forms as I write. I used to write only as the words came to me. Now, to expand my skills, I also pick topics to write about, as well as specific forms. (There are a few great threads in the 'game room' to practice these.)

moth said:

How do you decide whether to have a piece rhyme or not?

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Again, this depends upon the poet and the poem. Some poets rhyme all their poetry, some don't ever rhyme, but most fall in between the two.



As I check my post, I realize all I am telling you is that much of poetry is subjective. There are specific "rules" within forms, and even without a specific form, there is a matter of how the poem flows. The rest? Subjective. Huh.....I'm not sure this really helped, but it was fun to answer the questions.

I would love to hear what you get out of poetry.

The more you do anything, the better you'll be at it. First try writing a meaningful paragraph about something important.

Then try to rephrase by refining your prose with imagery or metaphors.

Example: "I love to walk on the beach after work...It feels nice..."

"I love walking on the beach at sunset, feeling the salt spray of the ocean against my face..."

moth said:

Hi all! I've lurked around the poetry forum for a while and this looks like such a wonderful place! I'd love to join in but I stink at poetry. I stink at everything about poetry except reading it. I like it, but I don't get it. At least I don't seem to get out of it what others get out of it. I've read some of the poetry critiques here and all I can make heads or tails of are things like rhyme and meter. The "feel" of poems, or what I'm supposed to think about after having read a piece -- that's what eludes me. I'm usually left scratching my head after reading poems.

So I'm feeling kind of lost. I'd love to try writing some poetry myself but I feel like I need to be a better poetry reader first. So -- where do you look for clues in a poem as to what it's about? Does it just take practice to get the "feel" of poems? Do all poems have themes? What does a poet set out to do when they write a poem? How do you decide whether to have a piece rhyme or not?

Sorry....I'm very curious and as I said, a little lost.

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Hi Moth,

If it makes you feel any better the title of the first poem I ever wrote was "I Cannot Write A Poem." LoL. The whole poem was about how bad of a writer I was. It was for a grade ten poetry assignment, and I really didn't think I could do it. When I handed it in, the teacher said it was good, and that I could write a poem. It takes a lot of practice, keep reading and writing poetry. But every poet starts with their first one....and works on it from there. Best of Luck!

All of us stink at poetry-all of us! We write fiction-published and that is all! One of us started writing poetry here on the poetry game anyone thread-just to see if one of us could do it. We stink-we can-so we do! It don't matter a tiddlers tiddle-good-bad or ugly-just write it-play on the poetry game anyone thread-under games and things like that. WE DO NOT KNOW WHO YOU ARE-THAT IS GOOD-THAT MEANS WRITE POETRY-CRAPPY POETRY-GOOD POETRY-WHO CARES! It helps the multiple personality disorder thing that was also pointed out to us-that we are that is-by some lovely critters who are now long departed-at least we think so. Anyone out there still?

What an excellent thread. Thank you, moth, for starting it. You've posed a great list of questions, and they're good for all of us to consider.

I'll just add one thing here, before I move the thread to Poetry Discussions:

If you're not 'getting' a poem, don't get down on yourself. Maybe the thought's not expressed clearly enough, or maybe it requires background knowledge. No harm in asking!

If you read any of mine and don't get them, I'd very much like to know. The poem might need fixing.

If I could make a suggestion...

Your local community college or university will almost certainly have an evening writing poetry (or simply creative writing) class. These classes are great because not only do you get to read poetry, but you learn what makes a poem work, what's considered good or bad about a poem, and get plenty of practice in writing them. I highly recommend you take such a class, if at all you can.

try a biography of a poet. this will give you insights into the poet's personality, his or her motivations, something about the writing process and what they hoped to achieve, and no small amount of analysis and criticism of their works, delivered in a way that does not boggle the mind of a neophyte.

i would highly recommend paul ferris' excellent biography of dylan thomas.

of course, one poet's life, work and techniques hardly fits all, but it seems your problem at this stage is one of near-total unfamiliarity with what poetry is all about.

i applaud you for being intellectually curious.

Yeah yeah, now go write or something

(insert grumpy face)



(better, mac? )

Moth,

Since I saw somewhere that you explained your monicer(?) in another thread, I know that you are a "hands on" kinda person. So, now the ball is in your court.

Starting is half the battle.

Remember, have fun!

Moths:

moth said:

...I stink at everything about poetry except reading it...I like it, but I don't get it. At least I don't seem to get out of it what others get out of it.

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Ah, well you are a step ahead of me. Back in high school, not only did I not get it--I hated it! So I avoided all English courses in college since they would involve poetry, except for the one freshman English class I couldn't duck. And this hate continued until 31 years after graduation, when, forced into a quiet convelescence after a heart attack scare (turned out it wasn't one), I tried writing one. I was surprised how much pleasure I got from finding words that fit a form and made sense doing so. So I set myself a decade to learn the art and the craft. I'm half way through that now, and wrote only one poem in the last year. But the learning hasn't stopped.

I've read some of the poetry critiques here and all I can make heads or tails of are things like rhyme and meter. The "feel" of poems, or what I'm supposed to think about after having read a piece -- that's what eludes me. I'm usually left scratching my head after reading poems.

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Critiques are funny things. They are written by "critters", and so are subject to the strangeness of the species.

So I'm feeling kind of lost. I'd love to try writing some poetry myself but I feel like I need to be a better poetry reader first. So -- where do you look for clues in a poem as to what it's about? Does it just take practice to get the "feel" of poems? Do all poems have themes? What does a poet set out to do when they write a poem? How do you decide whether to have a piece rhyme or not?

Sorry....I'm very curious and as I said, a little lost.

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Some of the experts say to start learning poetry with rhyme and meter. Others say to stay far away from those until you have mastered other aspects of poetry: the line as the fundamental unit; metaphor; sonics; rhythm (as distinct from meter), etc. For me, rhyme and meter came easy, so I started there. Now free verse is very hard. I can't hear the poetry in it. I think you just need to follow the path of least resistance. If meter comes easy, start there and add rhyme. If you hear poetry in free verse, start with that. Read and study free verse. Read the best 1,000 free verse poems of the last 20 years and come to a conclusion of what makes them good. And write. Later, add meter to your toolbox through an intensive study and practice. Still later, add rhyme.

When I came out of my self-imposed, multi-decade poetic funk, I found I could write my own poetry better than I could read and appreciate the poetry of others. This epigram explains where I was five years ago with poetry. I'm still in a similar place now.

Meditation on Poetic Interpretation

A critic I will never be.
What others know I seldom see.
Though most did, I just never could
see death in that dark snowy wood.

Let others find a hidden meaning.
Such deep insights I won’t be gleaning.
But please don’t take this as a stricture.
I just enjoy the pretty picture.

Good luck with your poetic endeavors,
NDG

moth said:

Neither could I. I get this completely.

Thanks so much.

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Ah, a kindred soul! I think everyone else in 10th, 11th, and 12th grades all agreed with the teacher that that was a suicide poem. I was the only one who couldn't see it, and enjoyed the poem for the surface meaning.

I'm not terribly well-read in it. Poe and Dickinson are two of my favorites, but they're everybody's favorites so that doesn't say much about my tastes. Anyway I love love love their phrasing and use of language. And how some of their pieces are narrative poems -- and of course I like that because I write novels. I think I like them also because I know what they were going for, I know what I'm supposed to feel when I read their stuff.

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You are a writer of prose. Somehow you learned to appreciate prose, and someday found you had a desire to write it. What steps did you take, intentional or unintentional, to 1) become a prose writer, and 2) to become a better prose writer? Whatever you did with prose, do the same with poetry. Read tons of poetry. Study the art and the craft. Write for practice, then for real. Refine your work through multiple revisions and your skills through more and more writing. It is the same hard work with poetry as with prose, methinks. It's just that poetry is harder to write well.

Actually that's what I meant by the 'feel' of a poem -- get the feel of the theme or mood or point they were trying to get across, what they hoped I would think about. Like a few days ago Miss Snark posted a William Carlos Williams poem that I didn't get at all. I have no idea what he was trying to convey. All I see is what he actually wrote and I have no clue where to start getting anything deeper from it. I don't see any brilliance.

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Ah, we are kindred souls in this as well. I don't think I have read any WCW poems I got anything out of. I haven't seen any brilliance, either. Granted I have not read his complete works, but then I'm not going out of my way to find them and read them either.

Best Regards,
NDG

Hi Moth,

You might get a bit of a handle on where you are in the world of poetry if you compare it to other art worlds.

Most people like certain music forms more than other forms. Even people with very broad ranges of music preferences will probably find something un-likable sooner or later. The same happens with the visual arts, whether painting, drawing, architecture, sculpture, installation art, art-movies, or anything else. People like some stuff more than they like other stuff.

Your liking of Poe and Dickinson makes me think that you prefer poetry where both structure and intent is reasonably obvious. Both are disciplined in structure and rhythm, Dickinson often almost dancing, and what they intend the reader to understand is, for the most part, clearly indicated. Their poems often tell a story, even if you have to look up some unknown words.

If this sounds like it describes your preference, then you might start looking to identify the poetry that doesn't reach you so easily. It might be that an informal structure or the obscure intent of the poet has not touched you. Perhaps obscurity is the intent and you prefer transparency. Perhaps heavy or darkened symbolism does not match your own personality type. Perhaps the reader's struggle to understand matches the poet's struggle to express or process an experience.

Identifying dislikes in poetry is like doing the same thing with music or art. It just takes a little longer to see what it is that is not working for you. You probably already know what music you like and dislike. You can probably walk into an art gallery and say, "I like (or don't like) that because..." Now it's time to do the same for poetry.

And the good thing about this is that when you start identifying the dislikes, and you learn why such poems are as they are, then they become more likable. And when a certain style of poetry becomes more likable, or at least understandable, it adds itself to your own repetoire of skills.

moth said:

I stink at everything about poetry except reading it. I like it, but I don't get it.

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The easiest way to start writing poetry, to get a feel for the ins and outs, dos and don'ts is to write in free verse first. Forget rhyme and meter until you have a good understanding of sonics. Here's a thread that everyone here can take advantage of. http://www.poeticbyway.com/glossary.html

I've read some of the poetry critiques here and all I can make heads or tails of are things like rhyme and meter. The "feel" of poems, or what I'm supposed to think about after having read a piece -- that's what eludes me. I'm usually left scratching my head after reading poems.

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In a true sense and something that some poets miss, it is the authors resposibility to write for the audience, not the other way around. Poetry is about communicating an idea or picture clearly enough that the audience gets it. If the poem is too abstract or if it really doesn't say anything then the poet is writing for himself which is not poetry at all. It might well be that this is not an issue with you at all but with the poem.