What's wrong with lyrics

[Lindo]

I keep thinking I won't be further surprised by what somebody decides just CAN'T be used in a script. But I've recently run into another of those shibboleths that people seem to get from film school or something: NO LYRICS. Does that seem weird to anybody else, or has anyone heard the rationale behind that one? I ran into two last month.

One was a script on the Zoetrope site, which features a background song over a montage--kind of "Miami Vice", then later a major set piece the leads listen to in a nightclub act. Original lyrics.

The review said: "Lyrics are getting in the way…nice and creative to have ideas in mind for that..but they just took up great portions of three pages" (Actually less than two pages--we've all seen how long a song is, right?)

Then I got back another script from Accolades (the screenplay contest, not the lying, swindling TV one that didn't award or announce prizes last time). The short notes from the typical loser contest reader focused on having "too many song lyrics" This one was a MUSICAL...contained several songs that advanced the plot. Actually, I was rather proud of the way the songs moved the action and characterization forward and considered it innovative. But all this guy saw was lyrics...so shocking in a musical.

Now what's the deal here? We're not supposed to write musicals, just non-musical scripts. That seems harsh when some of the top films of all time have been musicals. Did "Sound of Music" or "Rocky Horror" or "Little Shop of Horrors" have too many lyrics? Was sticking a song in the middle of "Butch Cassidy" or "Midnight Cowboy" or "Adventures in Babysitting" or "Ferris Beuler" a horrible idea? How many is too many? Why would lyrics waste space, when dialog doesn't?

In short, I don't get it. And since I like writing movies with songs in them, I'd LOVE to get some glimmer of what the hell the problem is?

[icerose]

In short? Because you have to pay for them.

You have to buy the right to use that copywrite and that can get very expensive quick oh and the film company may not even be able to acquire the rights so if it is important to your script and they can't get the rights because the original artists aren't willing, you're up a creek without a paddle.

And on the Lyrics taking up space is because you get between 80 and 120 pages, that's it. If you spend ten pages on Lyrics which will be running in the background vs in the foreground (well minus a musical but that would be more dialog than lyrics) then you have skewed the projected film time by a full ten minutes.

[tourdeforce]

... a background song over a montage--kind of "Miami Vice", then later a major set piece the leads listen to in a nightclub act. Original lyrics.

The review said: "Lyrics are getting in the way…nice and creative to have ideas in mind for that..but they just took up great portions of three pages" (Actually less than two pages--we've all seen how long a song is, right?)


That feedback sounded appropriate.

Two pages of a script is valuable real estate and to use it for background lyrics in a montage sequence sounds like lost, even wasted, opportunity to advance your story.

[Bravo]

is the genre a "musical"?

[clockwork]

It's also to do with your role as a writer. If you're planning to direct your own work then you can do whatever you want; write it in crayon on napkins, it won't matter because you're the guy who's going to make it happen.

But if you're just the writer then I think a lot of readers, producers and directors interpret the inclusion of lyrics or songs in a script as directing from the page. You're including a detail in your script that, at the point of reading, is unnecessary because that part of the filmmaking process is so far down the line as to be superfluous at this stage. I think the think that irks me about including songs is that it's too specific. It's OK to say, "a Sam Cooke classic hums in the background" or "uptempo jazz rings through the club" but specifying a particular song... you probably wouldn't be that specific with other details in your script, costumes, locations, cars, camera directions etc because those are finer points to be fleshed out once the appropriate people have been hired. The same general 'rule' applies to music.

As icerose said, what if they can't secure the rights to that song? Worse, what if the reader or director hates it? Why take that chance when you can easily create a similar effect with your words? Scripts should be visual first and foremost. Do everything you can to show rather than tell. Even dialogue is cheating. :) You know what I mean.

To be perfectly honest, it probably wouldn't bother me too badly if I read that you think a particular Eric Clapton song should play over a scene, I'm sure I'd be able to continue reading unless you repulsed me with some God-awful choice but I certainly wouldn't want to read the lyrics.

That really would be a waste of precious, precious space. I wish I had room to spend on lyrics.

[blackbird]

I think a lot of people are missing the point here. Lindo is talking about (correct me if I'm wrong) the inclusion of his/her own original lyrics, which is an altogether different ballgame from the need to acquire rights for the use of someone else's material.

[dpaterso]

Yeah, I'd probably allude to a style, a beat, "The band kicks up with a jazz number. Vonda SINGS, and Johnny is mesmerized."

However, if a song fits, really fits, I'd mention this. Every prodco knows how to arrange license permissions. But I'd mention this in an inoffensive way, e.g. "Something heart-rending like Barry Manilow's 'Mandy' plays, bringing tears to Jenny's eyes." Which lets the reader or exec sense the mood without insisting on buying that particular song.

If I'd written music/songs then these would be attached as music/songs, with the titles appearing at appropriate moments in the script. Including the lyrics in the script without the music seems pretty meaningless anyway.

Shrug, each to their own.

ps - sorry blackbird just saw your post, yeah you could be right.

-Derek

[Goodwriterguy]

I think a lot of people are missing the point here. Lindo is talking about (correct me if I'm wrong) the inclusion of his/her own original lyrics, which is an altogether different ballgame from the need to acquire rights for the use of someone else's material.
But song lyrics without the music don't carry a lot of weight and though their correlation to the story may be clear to the writer, they may be much less so to a reader.

The key here being the script as a spec, not something a writer is gonna shoot themselves.

Screenwriters write movies, musicians and composers and arrangers score them. And they do so after they've been given at least a rough cut of the picture, better a much closer to final cut.

The advice to suggest a musical style or genre for a given scene is common and represents a legitimate way for a writer to convey some musical influence. I've written,

Music comes up, Ravel's "Bolero" or something like it.

and it flew okay.

I think if a writer has tunes they'd like to see in the movie they write they should hang onto them and at some point in the negotiations for sale of the property bring them up as an item to discuss. Cost will be an issue because the producer still has to pay for the songs to be performed and recorded, unless the writer has managed to get the material produced beforehand and brings along a CD to the meeting. And even then, the writer is gonna charge for the music too, he ain't no fool.

Hollywood is just not used to seeing specific tunes called for in specs and really not used to seeing song lyrics spelled out. It's something spec writers have never or rarely done so it's just not expected. And the fact that tens of thousands of movies have been made from scripts that didn't specify particular tunes, means yours can be too.

Musicals I think are another animal. They are, afterall, about songs, and the songs move the story forward. But even in this genre including the lyrics seems to be something that would cut across accepted practice, although I must say I've never read a musical so I don't really know. It seems that most musicals are written for hire and are not spec'd.

But in anything else, the mention of specific musical numbers isn't a good idea and including lyrics to original tunes is a really bad idea. We tell our stories in pictures and visual imagery and we can rely on a producer getting our picture scored in an appropriate manner. We might even have that conversation with them. We don't see many movies that are scored badly.

Bite the bullet and keep your tunes handy so that when you are negotiating the sale of the script, you can bring them up as an item of discussion. In a word, you can "pitch" them. Meanwhile, don't shoot yourself in the foot on the way to a sale. ;)

[Inkdaub]

The whole 'remember your place little writer' stuff doesn't fly with me. I'll write as I see fit and include what I see fit. However, copyrighted lyrics are shaky ground. Even lyrics in a CD booklet include a disclaimer that they were used with permission. Be careful with stuff like that. If the lyrics are your own...live it up.

[Goodwriterguy]

The whole 'remember your place little writer' stuff doesn't fly with me. I'll write as I see fit and include what I see fit. However, copyrighted lyrics are shaky ground. Even lyrics in a CD booklet include a disclaimer that they were used with permission. Be careful with stuff like that. If the lyrics are your own...live it up.
This is all well and good, but ... you're going to create a specific kind of product (a script) for a specific market (production companies, indy producers, studios) and you're not going to recognize that market's preferences in the products they buy? Will you also write 165 page screenplays, or just where do you draw the line, or do you draw a line at all?

A seller of wares is generally ahead of the game if they create their wares in a manner that's consistent with what his market says it wants.

The odds against selling something are rather stupendous anyway, why double or triple them up?

I don't think this adds up to "remember your place little writer" at all. I think it ads up to writers being smart about how they approach their market and the manner in which they prepare their material to optimize its chances in that market.

No great script has ever been made greater by the addition of song lyrics or even by mention of specific music or tunes.

And BTW, CD booklets that contain song lyrics are usually published by the record producer, the guy who owns the copyrights to the songs and hence needs no disclaimer. Or are such booklets commonly published by others?

[creativexec]

If you're writing a musical, then lyrics are essential. And a comment that there are too many lyrics (in a musical) is generally absurd.

But if you decide to stick in two pages worth of lyrics into a script that isn't a musical, you're probably going to run into trouble with some readers.

I might ask what your motives are for putting two-pages of lyrics into a non-musical.

The fact that you've written a musical screenplay before might suggest your affinity for the genre, and putting lyrics into a non-musical could be that affinity leaking into another genre - which might be a bit misguided.

Bill Condon, for instance, loves musicals but didn't have Kinsey or James Whale break into song or take up pages with lyrics in KINSEY and GODS AND MONSTERS.

But that's a general statement and the purpose and fit of the lyrics can only be determined by reading the script as a whole. (If you're writing some quirky ANNIE HALL-type comedy, maybe it would work.) However, if a reader tells you it's (dramaturgically) problematic, your job as the writer is to consider the note.

In general, when characters arbitrarily sing in movies - like the boys singing "Bohemian Rhapsody" in WAYNE'S WORLD or Susan Sarandon and her kids singing and dancing to the record player in STEPMOM - the lyrics are not included in the script.

Only include lyrics in a script because they have some sort of intrinsic value that contributes to the drama or character. I'll often read scripts from amateurs and it seems apparent that lyrics are included simply because the scribe loves the song - and for no other reason. (The reader shouldn't "see" the writer writing.) And having precious motives that are too artsy will most likely backfire.

Ultimately, it's not the use of lyrics that's the no-no. It's the poor use. It's similar to teachers telling kids not to start a sentence with the word "But." It's not that it's inherently wrong or bad, it's because kids'll most likely end up writing an incomplete sentence - which in English class is bad/wrong.

I've read tens of thousands of scripts - and never have I seen a professional non-musical script include two-pages of lyrics. (Most are usually condensed into one or two lines of dialogue - like a character singing to himself or to his child at bedtime, for instance.)

The notion that using lyrics (written by another) is a legal problem is not the concern of the screenwriter. The writer uses whatever he needs to evoke his mood and create his drama. Let the studio and producers worry about ironing out the rights later.


:)

[blackbird]

Keep in mind that the script I'm writing isn't entirely a spec script; however, one way I've gotten around the issue of using specific songs is to say something like, "He goes to his room and air-plays his bass guitar to a fast grunge song ( think Alice in Chains' We Die Young or Peal Jam's Animal)." This gives an idea of the specific flavor, or type of song I have in mind, but doesn't specify that those particular tunes have to be used. It leaves the door open to perhaps negotiate for those tunes at a later time, or for something similar.

Since I'm writing the script from my own novel for a producer, I do have some leeway, but still have to be cautious. For instance, in the novel, one of my characters sings in a band, and he has his own songs. In my novel, I used original lyrics (usually in snippets of four lines or less). I haven't quite decided yet how I will handle this in the screenplay, but I'm not sure it's even necessary because all of that is spelled out in the novel. So in the script, I think I could probably just say, "Craig performs Black Morning, Easter Sun for the crowd"-or something to that effect. One thing I'm also doing is reading as many scripts as I can-both spec and non-spec-that contain references to music, to see how other writers have handled this. That's really the best way to learn, when you get right down to it. But you still can't just assume that because Writer A did such-and-such in his screenplay that became a megahit that it's automatically okay for Writer B. You have to weigh all the factors. Was this a spec script? Did the writer already have some connections (perhaps he's friends with the songwriter)? Did they obtain permission to use the lyric BEFORE the script was written? Is this a first, or perhaps later draft that may have been written after all other rights and negotiations had been obtained?

By the way, Inkdaub, Goodwriterguy seems like an experienced pro who knows his stuff. He has certainly been most helpful and gracious to me with some good advice. I agree that it can feel stifling with so many telling you what can and can't be done, but there's a good reason for most of it.
I don't think it's meant to be condescending. This is, after all, a forum for learning the craft.

[Goodwriterguy]

Keep in mind that the script I'm writing isn't entirely a spec script; however, one way I've gotten around the issue of using specific songs is to say something like, "He goes to his room and air-plays his bass guitar to a fast grunge song ( think Alice in Chains' We Die Young or Pearl Jam's Animal)." This gives an idea of the specific flavor, or type of song I have in mind, but doesn't specify that those particular tunes have to be used. It leaves the door open to perhaps negotiate for those tunes at a later time, or for something similar.
Now you're talking! :)


Since I'm writing the script from my own novel for a producer, I do have some leeway, but still have to be cautious. For instance, in the novel, one of my characters sings in a band, and he has his own songs. In my novel, I used original lyrics (usually in snippets of four lines or less). I haven't quite decided yet how I will handle this in the screenplay, but I'm not sure it's even necessary because all of that is spelled out in the novel. So in the script, I think I could probably just say, "Craig performs Black Morning, Easter Sun for the crowd"-or something to that effect. One thing I'm also doing is reading as many scripts as I can-both spec and non-spec-that contain references to music, to see how other writers have handled this. That's really the best way to learn, when you get right down to it. But you still can't just assume that because Writer A did such-and-such in his screenplay that became a megahit that it's automatically okay for Writer B. You have to weigh all the factors. Was this a spec script? Did the writer already have some connections (perhaps he's friends with the songwriter)? Did they obtain permission to use the lyric BEFORE the script was written? Is this a first, or perhaps later draft that may have been written after all other rights and negotiations had been obtained?
Excellent! You are in good hands, your own.


By the way, Inkdaub, Goodwriterguy seems like an experienced pro who knows his stuff. He has certainly been most helpful and gracious to me with some good advice. I agree that it can feel stifling with so many telling you what can and can't be done, but there's a good reason for most of it.
I don't think it's meant to be condescending. This is, after all, a forum for learning the craft.
Thank you for this vote of confidence. I hope to never be condescending to anyone in this forum.

And indeed we are here to learn the craft ... and its art and its business.

The various limitations imposed on us do indeed have good reasons in nearly all cases. The industry usually knows what it wants in terms of form, the content is up to us as writers. We're free to tell any story we choose, and that's the beauty of it. Genre are the classic example of this, they do have their conventions and we are well advised to adhere to them in our work, or, if we decide to veer away from one or more in a given piece, have very good reasons for doing so, reasons that will resonate with readers and producers or any industry persona who happens to read our work.

The best approach is to learn the limitations, work within them, and master the form. We wouldn't dream of using a font other than Courier, a particular limitation that drives some writers batty and one I've chafed under a few times myself, it seems so silly in the modern age of proportional fonts. Yet it has its reasons and they are legitimate and we're stuck with it ... so we use it.

Enjoy! :D

[Joe Unidos]

And BTW, CD booklets that contain song lyrics are usually published by the record producer, the guy who owns the copyrights to the songs and hence needs no disclaimer. Or are such booklets commonly published by others?

The CD booklet is published by the record company. The record company do not own the copyright, nor does the record producer (?), the publishing company holds the copyright. That's why they are used with permission on the CD booklet.

[Mac H.]

Another problem with original lyrics is that when the writer writes them on the page, they are listening to the music in their head, and it seems great.

When the original writer reads the scene again, they are listening to the music in their head .. and the scene still seems great.

When a stranger reads the lyrics ... they are just reading a poem. No music. Or perhaps the wrong music is playing in their head. Perhaps if the words would have the same impact with zero music you could manage it.

For what it's worth, I feel your pain. I desperately want to include "And the band Played Waltzing Matilda" in a script of mine, despite the licensing issues and every bit of advice I've heard. I doubt I will, but I'll probably try and sneak in a reference. (Like here: http://ericbogle.net/lyrics/lyricspdf/andbandplayedwaltzingm.pdf )

Good luck,

Mac

[Lindo]

Yes. As I said, one was a musical, the other had two songs, one background, one performed on camera.

As I also said... ORIGINAL LYRICS. Nothing to get rights for, nothing to buy.
I write a play, it has songs, I write the songs...why isn't that OK?????

[Lindo]

Thanks for your input creativewriter guy.

Regarding putting songs in a non-musica--seems to me it's done all the time. How many montages do you see with music behind them: music that helps drive the montage or the plot? A lot, actually.

In this case, one song is behind a series of shots. The other is being sung on stage while two characters are at a night club. The song has a lot to do with their bonding.

One example of something similar would be the blues in "Advetures In Babysitting". The use (deadening overuse, actually) of the "Beautiful Maria" song in "Mambo Kings" would be another. The Beatles song in "Ferris Beuler" is another example...though it was not original, it's the idea of using songs in the script.

For that matter, things like "Almost Famous" and "School For Rock" are hardly musicals, but include original music.

I really fail to see what this is a bad thing. What are you supposed to do, say: "MUSIC OVER: Really cool song that makes it clear what he sees in her"?

Or is this just another knee-jerk no-no that haunts the lower fringe of the industry?

[Mac H.]

Regarding putting songs in a non-musica--seems to me it's done all the time. How many montages do you see with music behind them: music that helps drive the montage or the plot? A lot, actually.You want to write a screenplay. That's great. But how many screenplays have read?

If you want to write a screenplay using the same technique as those movies you've seen, then why don't you read the screenplays for those films and see how they did it?

The Beatles song in "Ferris Beuler" is another example...though it was not original, it's the idea of using songs in the script.
..
I really fail to see what this is a bad thing. What are you supposed to do, say: "MUSIC OVER: Really cool song that makes it clear what he sees in her"?Just read the screenplays and see how they handle it. Easy

You mentioned Ferris Bueller's Day off. I happen to have a link to the script: http://corky.net/scripts/ferris.html

As you can see, they did it without putting lryics in. In fact, they used phrases like "From inside we hear SHOUTING and seventeen different SONGS PLAYING ON BLASTERS. A top forty montage."

No song lyrics in the entire script.

I'm confused why you are asking the same question again. Haven't you already been given good answers?
eg: "..you're going to create a specific kind of product (a script) for a specific market (production companies, indy producers, studios) and you're not going to recognize that market's preferences in the products they buy?

and

".. if you decide to stick in two pages worth of lyrics into a script that isn't a musical, you're probably going to run into trouble with some readers. I've read tens of thousands of scripts - and never have I seen a professional non-musical script include two-pages of lyrics. .."

Do you think that the answers will change ?


Mac

[creativexec]

Regarding putting songs in a non-musica--seems to me it's done all the time. How many montages do you see with music behind them: music that helps drive the montage or the plot? A lot, actually.

In this case, one song is behind a series of shots. The other is being sung on stage while two characters are at a night club. The song has a lot to do with their bonding.

Yes, but it's referred to very easily in the script - often without even mentioning the song title.

The script will simply say: MUSICAL MONTAGE.

And then go on to describe a series of shot.

NEVER would a writer include lyrics in a montage sequence (in a non-musical screenplay) - as you describe.

As Mac suggests in his post, you need to read screenplays. You'll have a clear vision of how it all works once you do that. It should be part of the learning curve for all writers.

Ultimately, it's your script, you can do it however you like. As someone once said, "There are no rules. Break them at your own peril."

Good luck.

:)

[blackbird]

To play devil's advocate just a bit, I have read one major screenplay (Forrest Gump) that included pop song lyrics. As most of you recall, that film had a soundtrack that relied heavily on pop songs from the 60's and 70's. However, the screenplay did not include lyrics for every single song used, only certain ones. (Actually, for many of the scenes that later contained music, no mention of songs or music is made at all). However, there were nonetheless several scenes where the specific song is not only mentioned, but the actual lyrics (usually only about four lines or less) are used. It seemed that the screenplay may have specified those particular songs that the writer most wanted used in conjunction with that scene.

However, there are still several factors to keep in mind, the most important being that this was not a spec script. Also, as I mentioned in my previous post, the rights to those songs may have already been acquired before the script was written. As I and others have said, it's a good idea to read as many screenplays as possible to see what's been done and how. But also keep in mind that what worked for one writer with one script may not work for everyone.

[clockwork]

I've seen Aaron Sorkin used lyrics in scripts for The West Wing but again... it's Aaron Sorkin, isn't it? He could put cheesecake recipes in voice-over and it probably wouldn't raise eyebrows.

[creativexec]

However, there were nonetheless several scenes where the specific song is not only mentioned, but the actual lyrics (usually only about four lines or less) are used.

As I mentioned earlier, this is not uncommon. But to offer up two pages of lyrics or the words to an entire song for a musical montage is rarely done in a professional script. (I cannot recall an example.)


:)

[icerose]

If I had to slog through two pages of lyrics I would quickly forget what the screenplay was about and why I was reading it. Especially unknown lyrics from an unknown writer in which I could get no feel for.

[Lindo]

Good thing it wasn't up to you to read Streets of Fire or Sound of Music, huh?
They have a LOT more than two pages of lyrics...of course not all at once, so as to prevent slogging.

Whether or not you have a feel for the lyrics in question is pretty moot, I'd say, since you haven't seen them.

But let's change all that: Here is the page from the script. The song is performed at a lesbian night club where the main characters are starting to cement their relationship: a coming-our for the younger woman, something special for the older one. Happy slogging.

And AGAIN...I just have to ask if anybody has any idea why (absent lame pre-conceptions and fallacious comments about commercial property) it's not OK to include lytrics in scripts like so many have?



Singer
holds a flower basket with sign: "ROSES $5 EACH". She
ignores the audience, heavily into a wistful/blasé
Dietrich/Piaf hauteur, sings in a throaty, Frenchy lisp.
As soon as she begins, the lights drop to two spots: one on
her and the other on two dancers personifying the lyrics. A
knockout Blonde Dancer does Marilyn in white chiffon, a
Blonde Drag King goes for a gauche hyper-masculinity. All
three dance teams brush by the Singer's proferred roses

SINGER
She's long-stemmed and outrageous
Out of Texas or Vegas
A big burst of blonde
From the society pages
She's so bloody blatant
Just goddam gorgeous
She lights up the square
Like those patio torches
But does he pant at her heels?
Does he melt in her eyes?
Nah, he elbows her ribs
Like she was one of the guys
If she was mine
I'd sweep her right off the street
Take her up to a suite
Fall down at her feet
Kiss off her clothes
And place a pale golden rose
Where it would do the most good
Brother, that's what he should
One supposes
Cover her, smother her
Lover her with streetcorner roses

At the second verse, the spot moves to second dance duo, a
stunning Black Dancer and a Black Drag King doing clueless
pimp/player.

SINGER
She's got eyes from El Greco
Straight out of the ghetto
She's got angles as sharp
As a hockshop stiletto
She's bodacious Black Magic
She's just egregious
Twitching her tail like some
Endangerous species
But look at those shoes
And what's wrong with hair?
And this is the best
He can buy her to wear?

What I would do
I would decorate her
Drench her in fur
Just to hear how she'd purr
Give her red fishnet hose
And a rare purple rose
Gracing her breast
That's what I would suggest
If he proposes
To drown her, surround her
Abound her with streetcorner roses.

The bridge shuts down to a single tight spot, Singer playing
the hell out of her streetwise lesbian shtick.

SINGER
I’ve got roses for sale
Buy one or a dozen
Give them to that sweetie
That you swear is your cousin
Petals scattered on sheets
A bud pressed in a book
In a flute on the nightstand
The first place she’ll look
There's not enough light
There are not enough hours
We run out of love
But I've got plenty of flowers...
Third verse: third dance duo, a devastating Latina Dancer
unappreciated by a Chicano Drag King doing an oblivious,
macho El Pachuco turn.

She's all hot-eyed and manic
Some kind of Hispanic
With a swell to her hips
That could sink the Titanic
Carmel cream cleavage
With a dangling rosary
Lethal high heels
And exposery hosiery
But dig Mister Macho
Playing her cool
All of that wasted
On this little fool

SINGER
What I'd like to do
Would be build her a shrine
Toast her with wine
Just to see how she’d shine
Then get her to pose
With one blood red rose
Clenched in her teeth
And nothing on underneath
Cherish what she exposes
Pleasure her, measure her
Treasure her with streetcorner roses.

[dpaterso]

No argument sought, just being honest. If I were reading that script? No way I'd stop and read those lyrics, I'd skim forward to rejoin the story which, hopefully, will tell me what affect the song has had on other characters and/or on the audience.

Like I said earlier, I'd reference the song title in the script (Singer sings "Streetcorner Roses" -- audience watches, mesmerized, then goes nuts with applause) and include the music/lyric sheets as attachments. But that's just me. Each to their own, obviously.

This isn't a challenge or anything but I'd rather you quoted spec musical scripts than point to Streets of Fire (a famous Walter Hill project with music from Ry Cooder and Jim Steinman, if memory serves) and The Sound of Music (no explanation required).

-Derek

[clockwork]

If it's intended as a musical and the lyrics are your own, leave them in and see what happens. They'll either hinder the script or they won't and that will largely depend on who's reading it. I'm not sure you can be persuaded about this one way or the other.

As I'm sure you know, Streets of Fire was written and directed by Walter Hill so it would not have gone through the same reading/selection process as an unknown spec. (I believe it bombed at the box office anyway and has only since achieved a cult following.) Similarly, The Sound of Music was adapted from a broadway musical so the idea of including of songs and lyrics in the script would have been clear from the start.

EDIT - Gah! Die, Derek, die!

[Mac H.]

And AGAIN...I just have to ask if anybody has any idea why (absent lame pre-conceptions ..) it's not OK to include lytrics in scripts like so many have?Sorry my answer was just a lame pre-conception.

However, I did make an effort to look up the exact examples you offered, and found that the only one I could find DIDN'T have the lyrics in the script. You say 'like so many have'. How many? Which ones?

Because I was curious about your question, I took a good look through a couple of dozen screenplays just in case my memory had fooled me. The only musical I found didn't even do it. It was explained to me by the director/writer that it was common to keep the screenplay (which they usually call the 'book' for some odd reason) separate to the music & lyrics for simplicity ... (It's probably not done all the time, but it was the only example of a musical that I've seen the screenplay for)

It'd be great if you could provide some links to examples with a couple of pages of lyrics. It's rather sad but I enjoy reading screenplays and keeping an eye out for different techniques. If I could find one which used a few pages of lyrics it would be an interesting addition to the collection.

Good luck,

Mac

[dpaterso]

EDIT - Gah! Die, Derek, die!
At least now we know who's the faster typist. :)

I've reported your wish to kill me, I believe this is against forum policy. Expect a visit in the night.

-Derek

[clockwork]

At least now we know who's the faster typist. :)

I've reported your wish to kill me, I believe this is against forum policy. Expect a visit in the night.

-Derek

Oh, that. No. That's German for 'The Derek, the.'




Yes. That'll do. :e2beat:

[tourdeforce]

And AGAIN...I just have to ask if anybody has any idea why (absent lame pre-conceptions and fallacious comments about commercial property) it's not OK to include lytrics in scripts like so many have?


Dude, you do what works best for the script.

If it is a make-or-break deal in your mind for a character to sing a few lines of a specific song in order to make your story happen, then it is the right thing for you to do to include it.

Including the two pages of lyrics of a background song for a montage seems like a bad idea to me, an unecessary waste of white space, but if you deem it essential, then it is the right thing for you to do.

Musicals are a completely different story and the answer for that is obvious.

[Lindo]

And I would prefer to do things my way. If that's OK, I mean.

Let me point out that the question is not whether anybody (certainly not you in particular) would stop to read the lyrics.

The question is why there would be a sentiment that original lyrics don't belong in scripts...including in musicals. I don't see anything here addressing that question.

[clockwork]

And I would prefer to do things my way. If that's OK, I mean.

Let me point out that the question is not whether anybody (certainly not you in particular) would stop to read the lyrics.

The question is why there would be a sentiment that original lyrics don't belong in scripts...including in musicals. I don't see anything here addressing that question.
The general consensus appears to be that most people would not stop to read the lyrics. If that's largely true here then it has to be largely true amongst script readers as well. If people aren't going to be reading something you put into the script, I suppose the question you have to ask yourself is, is it even worth it?

Again, if this is something you're making yourself then I don't think it matters what you do but if at some point your piece is going to go through a reader or queried to a production company, it should really try to meet the expectations of those people and those places. 'The rules' are a pain in the rear, I know, and there is room for interpreting them individually and stressing their limits. But you should try to avoid doing something differently if there's a chance it may be misunderstood or even worse, may become a reason to reject you.

Why not leave the lyrics out of the body of the script and then include them in a separate document at the end. So you have your script from start to finish and when a song is supposed to take place in the story you can mention the title, who's singing it etc and then almost like a supplement after the script has finished, you have the lyrics in chronological order as they would appear in the film.

That way, the lyrics are there to be read if the reader so chooses but they are not taking up precious space in the script. Just a thought.

[Lindo]

Thanks for your input, Clock. But actually the question is IS IT OKAY to include lyrics. If somebody skips over the lyrics they will still be there. But having somebody reject the whole thing because it has lyrics in it, which is the situation I'm describing, is another matter.

I'm getting the impression that this IS a widely-held feeling among people on this thread. Not necessarily among professional film-makers.

The comments against here don't make a whole lot of sense. Take the one about Sound of Music not being a spec script (who knew, huh?) Does this mean that it's okay for musicals to have lyrics, but not spec musicals???? So it's NOT ALLRIGHT TO WRITE AN ORIGINAL MUSICAL??????????????????

Obviously that's silly.

My first impression on this was to include lyric sheets later (creating a REAL slogging through situation) but decided differently after reading scripts for a dozen musicals.

Lyrics ARE dialog. Done right they move the plot and characterization forward. they are no less "precious" than other elements in a film that relies on them. There is no reason for a film not to rely on them.

I asked this question hoping for some insight into this thing. Only one reply makes any sense at all (for which thanks). If anybody has any input on this other than using other people's lyrics is a problem or they personally would evalutate a musical script by not reading the lyrics, I'd be interested.

[tourdeforce]

Wow.

[clockwork]

I think the problem and the confusion here stems from the fact that very few screenwriters specifically set out to write musicals. As I'm sure you're aware, mainstream Hollywood produces very few musicals anyway. They're expensive, they take a special kind of production team and they have to be damn good - and usually an already established hit (Chicago, Rent.) Even Moulin Rouge was remade from the 1952 film.

Is it possible that a musical would be rejected simply on these grounds alone, simply because it is a musical and before it's even opened up to the first page? I'd say the chances of rejection are greater than your basic spec script. I have no idea... but that's what I feel in my gut. I don't think you shouldn't write musicals, I think you should write whatever you want to and if you do write a musical, go ahead and put lyrics into the script as well - that particular quandry may become the least of your problems once you start querying production companies anyway.

I asked this question hoping for some insight into this thing. Only one reply makes any sense at all (for which thanks). If anybody has any input on this other than using other people's lyrics is a problem or they personally would evalutate a musical script by not reading the lyrics, I'd be interested.
I get that you're frustrated but I must say that people at AW go out of their way to help people with questions. You may not like the answers - I had a blazing row with someone when I first joined about breaking screenwriting rules - but you've got to remember that it's all just opinion. There really aren't any solid rules in screenwriting. You will always find examples of things being done differently. It's up to you to weigh the various opinions you get and decide for yourself.

Lest we go around in circles, that is.

[icerose]

I asked this question hoping for some insight into this thing. Only one reply makes any sense at all (for which thanks). If anybody has any input on this other than using other people's lyrics is a problem or they personally would evalutate a musical script by not reading the lyrics, I'd be interested.

Well since you didn't specify ORIGINAL lyrics in your ORIGINAL post how the &$%* are we supposed to know you were talking about ORIGINAL lyrics in your ORIGINAL thread short of reading your mind?

You put out these broad things, ask for answers and when people respond you get all irritated and defensive, start insulting people for not being able to read your mind and only working with your ORIGINAL posts to base the best answer they can come up with then you still treat them like garbage.

I'm just going to stop now. :rant:

[creativexec]

I think your question has been asked several times and answered several times.

Firstly, you need to stop confusing the matter by referring to musical screenplays (like THE SOUND OF MUSIC).

You've stipulated that your script in question is NOT a musical.

You simply want to include the lyrics to one song in your non-musical script. One song lyric does not a musical make.

I'll repeat what I've said and what everyone else has said: Lyrics in a MUSICAL screenplay (like THE SOUND OF MUSIC) are most definitely and certainly acceptable.

With that aside, let's move onto to your non-musical screenplay.

If you think it's vital to include the original lyrics - then use them in any way you choose.

I believe that most readers (and I have a baker's dozen that work for me) will either skim over them (as dpaterso said) or be rankled by the (seemingly) out-of-place lyrics - which will probably be - at least - one black mark against your script.

Since most writers don't do it (don't use original lyrics or the lyrics to an existing song in a non-musical), it's difficult to tell you how the lyrics to one song will be received by a reader.

Having the lyric to one song (for two-pages) in a non-musical screenplay goes against the grain of what is usually done.

If you want to blaze the trail, do so. You'll set the precedent for future writers who inquire.

Then fill us in on how the lyrics were received.


:)

[dpaterso]

Agreed, this is going round in circles, tediously so... evidently the level of knowledge and experience in this forum isn't sufficient to answer this question. Perhaps another screenwriting board with more intimate knowledge of spec musicals might provide greater insight?

Closing thread, PM me if any problems.

-Derek