Script Length

[mabwriter]

Ok, I keep hearing that script length should be somewhere between 95-120 pages, but every movie script I have read has been up past 130 pages, including comedies such as Ace Ventura, and these were final drafts not first or second.

So if studios want a certain length how do scripts this long get made?

[love2code]

Well I don't know what to say, may just be where you're getting your scripts. They may have formatted an extra line here or there, but almost all the scripts I have are usually 97-115pgs on average. One of the longer script I have is Pirates of the Caribbean which is 126pgs. Also 130pgs isn't really that long, but for new writers I would definitely avoid going that long. If you're an established writer then you can do whatever you want as long as the end product is good.

[bscript]

Love2Code is right, it's the established writers who can get away with going over the 120 page limit. On a spec level you'll need to come in under 120 to be taken seriously.

[SouthernBoySam]

You're confusing "spec script" with "script." They're written differently and the length varies on a script.

[mammamaia]

...getting past the first cut from the mailroom clerks, who use the simplest methods imaginable to determine which of that day's zillions of submissions go on to an agent's or prodco's second assistant to the chief assistant reader... if a script has 3 brads, a stiff or bright-colored cover, or 121 pages, it'll often be dumped before the first page is even scanned... if it's a comedy, 95-100 pages'll be the trash point...

remember, you're all amateurs till you've sold a script... and amateurs can't play by pro's rules, kids... sorry, but that's life in la-la-land... as well as just about anywhere, right?...

brilliant writing and/or high concept plots mean zip, if you can't get someone to read the script... so, pay attention to those 'petty' rules and regs, if you want the result of your hard work to get anywhere/anyone that can lead to anything good happening...

love and hugs, maia

[mdbftp]

I always aim for 106 pages.

[A Pathetic Writer]

...getting past the first cut from the mailroom clerks, who use the simplest methods imaginable to determine which of that day's zillions of submissions go on to an agent's or prodco's second assistant to the chief assistant reader... if a script has 3 brads, a stiff or bright-colored cover, or 121 pages, it'll often be dumped before the first page is even scanned... if it's a comedy, 95-100 pages'll be the trash point...

This is immature advice at best. For one, you should never, ever send a script unsolicited to any company, be it an agency or prodco or studio. They'll throw them all away, regardless of length, for liability and personal responsibility reasons.

Send a query, or call the agent and make your pitch. If they request the script, send it, regardless of length. No one in any mail room is going to block someone's requested script from getting through. The very notion is hilarious, and shows a complete lack of understanding of how mailrooms work.

[mdbftp]

Do not send a script that is over 200 pages unless you have told them your script is over 200 pages and they have told you it is okay that your script is over 200 pages.

[writerscut]

200 pages is a bit on the extreme side...the reason the screenplays the original poster mentioned are over the preferred studio limit is because they were written by working screenwriters, most likely hired by the studio. A spec script longer than 120 pages is most likely going to never be read...sad truth. Of course, never say never...by why take the chance? Do a good revision and edit, and lose anything irrelevant, or if you have a script formatting software, there are cheat options, which will condense dialogue and other things for you to shorten your script...although I'm not entirely sure I would recommend doing that...

[Hamboogul]

Okay, I'm going to step out of my fuzzy, "why can't we all get along" persona to dispense some truth.

First, every story that you submit should be told as efficiently as possible. If that means the script is 90 pages, so be it. If that means that the script is 200 pages, that's fine, too. If you are adjusting your story to appease a page count, you are not doing justice to your story.

As far as the getting read part, APW is absolutewrite (name of this forum) and mamma is absolutewrong. I don't know a single reader who would reject a script based on something coming with 3 brads or funny looking covers. If they did that, I assure you that they would be fired day one.

Ultimately, you need to be worried about the story that takes place between FADE IN and FADE OUT. But in mamma's defense, her post was made over a year ago and maybe she actually learned something about the biz.

[Hamboogul]

My last post was way too apocalyptic.

to make up for it, i offer...


:snoopy
:snoopy
:snoopy
:snoopy
:party
:snoopy
:snoopy
:kiss
:kiss
:clap
:clap
:hug
:hug

[writerscut]

Not wise to insult a writing veteran...the biz is extremely difficult, and the sad truth is that if your script is not proffessional...it ends up in the circular file...

[Optimus Maximus]

And, what qualifies one as a "writing veteran?"

Because a person has written for a long time? That doesn't imply that he/she is any good at it.

I've played basketball in my driveway since I was in junior high. Does that make me a "basketball veteran?"

So, what qualifies a person to be revered as a sacred cow on some anonymous internet message board?

Because someone used to be a "writing consultant?" ANYONE can claim to have been a "writing consultant" or a "script consultant." I can open up my own website now and offer story or script consultation and charge whatever the hell I want.

Doesn't mean I have any kind of professional experience or professional validation (i.e. doesn't mean I know jack about sh!t). Doesn't mean I'm any good.

If a person used to write porn, does that mean he/she is a "writing veteran?"

Does that make one above reproach from, say, a professional writer repped at one of the largest agencies in Hollywood?

Does that make a person above the reproach of anyone with any inkling of talent?

No.

Advice should be based on its intrinsic merits (what it actually says) even moreso than on its extrinsic (who is saying it).

So, for example, if a repped, professional screenwriter with a good bit of actual, industry experience gives you advice counter to that of, say, a misguided, man-hating ex-porn writer with no actual, verifiable professional credentials whatsoever, to whom are you going to listen?

Of course, the above examples are purely hypothetical.

Good, solid advice is hard to come by. Crap advice is everywhere.

Learn to recognize the difference, no matter who is giving it.

[mdbftp]

Did I say 200? I meant 2000.

Do not send a script that is over 2000 pages unless you have told them your script is over 2000 pages and they have told you it is okay that your script is over 2000 pages.

[absolutewrite]

Optimus makes a good point. I've been repped by three solid agents and one manager, have optioned my scripts about a dozen times, had one sale that fell apart somewhere along the line, won two contests, had a screenwriting professor who told me I should be teaching the class, and I've come to one conclusion:

I still don't know a damn thing about screenwriting.

(Of course, the day my first script appears on the big screen, I'll deny this, teach seminars, and proclaim myself a Guru.)

[Big Time Bollywood Producer]

Kid, I'll tell ya how those scripts get to be 130 pages.

More words.



Hear what I just said?

MORE WORDS!


You take a 110 page script to Jack Nickelson, what's the
first thing he's gonna do? He's gonna go through that
script of yours and count how many words he's got.

Did you know Jack Nickelson has an 1800 word clause
built into every deal? You show up with a 110 page script,
and Jack sees he got 1275 words in it? Kiss your sweet
tush goodbye, Kid. Jack ain't makin' that picture! So Jack
takes that script of yours and whips it at his agent's
mellon and says, "Hey! Dipstick! How may words you see
I got in this thing?"

And you know what Jack's agent's gonna tell your agent?

MORE WORDS!

Look, Kid. I'm not tryin to roast your coconuts here.
Fact is, even some of the pros don't know how many
words you're supposed to have. But when you make
600 pictures a year like I do, these things become
second nature.


~ Big Time Bollywood Producer

[Optimus Maximus]

I bow before the greatness that is Hugh...er... I mean...Mr. Big Time Bollywood Producer.

This board, and the other one, needs you.

[gullpoop]

Optimus offered some good sense, although I'd like to take exception to the implication behind the statement:
"If a person used to write porn, does that mean he/she is a "writing veteran?"
The implication is that writing porn takes no craft, and that one who writes porn could not possibly offer any insights into the writing process.

I submit that since porn is a genre intended to produce an emotional effect (okay, more than emotional -- physiological effect) it's got a clearer measure of effectiveness than drama. It's less forgiving. Kind of like comedy. If it's funny, it works. With porn, if it gets you hot, it works. If it doesn't it's crap. Seems to me that takes some craft: some understanding of how words and story affect a reader. Now, I'm no connoisseur of pornographic literature, but I've read some good stuff and I've read crap. I'd listen to the author of the stuff that's worthwhile.

[absolutewrite]

Another good point. I'm guessing Optimus was referring to porn movies-- which arguably don't require any talent to "write" (at least, most of them)-- but the constricts of writing erotic books make it a tough genre to write well... I'm impressed by people who manage to write hot story after hot story and have enough imagination to keep them interesting and different. Two of my friends do this, year after year, and I certainly consider them writing veterans. (They're also skilled nonfiction writers.)

[Optimus Maximus]

Yes, I was referring to writing porn movies.

That's why I contrasted a porn writer to a "real" repped screenwriter.

Sorry, guess I didn't make clear in a forum marked "Screenwriting," that I was referring to...well...screenwriting.

:p

[mammamaia]

This is immature advice at best. For one, you should never, ever send a script unsolicited to any company, be it an agency or prodco or studio. They'll throw them all away, regardless of length, for liability and personal responsibility reasons.

hey, apw... it wasn't 'advice'... it was an observation... and you don't seem to read too well, as i did NOT say 'reader'... i said 'mail room clerk'... not the same thing, bubba... i also never said anyone should send anything unsolicited... but the fact is that many newbies do send unsolicited scripts to prodcos and agencies...

do you always misquote folks and then lambaste them for what they never said?... now, that's 'immature' fer sure!

that said, i could have made my meaning a bit clearer, but was simply exaggerating a bit to make a point and didn't expect to be drawn and quartered for it, more than a year later...

[Optimus Maximus]

hey, apw... it wasn't 'advice'... it was an observation
No...it was presented as advice. And, how can you credibly call it an "observation?" Have you worked in these industry mailrooms before? Do you work in one now? Have you been witness to hidden camera investigations of these mailrooms? Do you have any firsthand knowledge whatsoever of what actually takes place in these mailrooms, or is your entire argument based on rampant speculation and urban myth hearsay?
and you don't seem to read too well, as i did NOT say 'reader'... i said 'mail room clerk'... not the same thing, bubba...
Apparently, age has hampered your eyesight and reading comprehension as well, Mom. APW never said "reader," either. His exact words were, "No one in any mail room is going to block someone's requested script from getting through."

Which, unlike what you said, is totally correct.

In fact, since your comprehension of both what APW wrote and what YOU wrote is obscenely faulty, I'll repost it for your review:
...getting past the first cut from the mailroom clerks, who use the simplest methods imaginable to determine which of that day's zillions of submissions go on to an agent's or prodco's second assistant to the chief assistant reader... if a script has 3 brads, a stiff or bright-colored cover, or 121 pages, it'll often be dumped before the first page is even scanned... if it's a comedy, 95-100 pages'll be the trash point... Maia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is immature advice at best. For one, you should never, ever send a script unsolicited to any company, be it an agency or prodco or studio. They'll throw them all away, regardless of length, for liability and personal responsibility reasons.

Send a query, or call the agent and make your pitch. If they request the script, send it, regardless of length. No one in any mail room is going to block someone's requested script from getting through. The very notion is hilarious, and shows a complete lack of understanding of how mailrooms work. - APW
As can be ascertained from what YOU originally wrote, while you never explicitly invited/suggested that newbies send their unsolicited scripts to companies, you presented your "opinion" as though that strategy were sound.

i also never said anyone should send anything unsolicited... but the fact is that many newbies do send unsolicited scripts to prodcos and agencies...
No, but you made no attempt whatsoever to steer newbies in the right direction, either, by swaying them from possibly making the mistake of sending unsolicited material. Your above paragraph actually made it sound, from both tone and content, that not only is it acceptable, but if it's going to be done, you offered how NOT to do it (rather than doing the correct thing and telling them NOT to do it at all).

Your "opinion" was crafted in such a way as to imply that if one were to send one's work to a company, that one must get it "past the first cut from the mailroom clerks." You then go on to describe these clerks supposed methods of filtration/gatekeeping when you assert that they "determine which of that day's zillions of submissions go on to an agent's or prodco's second assistant to the chief assistant reader" by using standards such as "a script has 3 brads, a stiff or bright-colored cover, or 121 pages, it'll often be dumped before the first page is even scanned" with which to base their script "trashing" on.

Your entire point was, of course, ludicrous. For one, why would anyone in the mail room open an agent's mail? That is a federal offense. Maybe you don't know, but the main job of these mail room clerks is to simply SORT the mail, UNOPENED, and then deliver it to the company representative it is addressed to. Certain agent's/manager's/producer's assistants may have the authority to open that person's mail, but I assure you, no one in the mail room does.

So, there is therefore NO WAY IN HELL that anyone in the mail room would even see that a script has "3 brads, a stiff or bright-colored cover, or 121 pages," let alone have the authority to "trash" it.

Also, your point of a comedy being "trashed" if it is 95-100 pages is almost equally as absurd as your other misguided points. Average script length for a comedy is 90-110 pages. If one comes in around 95-100, that's a GOOD thing, not bad.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to question your authority or knowledge on this board. I mean, you've had so many movies produced? Right?

No?

Okay, then. You've sold so many scripts to major Hollywood studios?

No?

Well, you're a "writing consultant" to individuals, including screenwriters, so you've at least had a script optioned, right?

Then, surely you have an agent, right?

Have you even written a screenplay before?
do you always misquote folks and then lambaste them for what they never said?...
He didn't. But, apparently you do.

Before you go around making wild accusations and defenses of your posts, it would behoove you to check your facts, check your posts, and check yourself.

Because, recklessly posting horrible advice and passing it off as insightful, insider and valuable when it is the opposite of all of those things, and then getting pissy and defensive when called out on it is not only the sign of an industry dilettante and pedant, but...

"that's 'immature' fer sure!"

[mdbftp]

Opti, some yohos seem to think it's fun to clog the board with useless merde... not funny!

if we ignore them, maybe they'lhttp://www.absolutewrite.com/images/emoteDisappear.gif

[Hamboogul]

my head ouchie.

not sure what advice to take.

ouchie, ouchie, ouchie.

:smack :shrug :bang :gone :( :head

can't we all just get along?

as a long-time member of this board and a newbie, i come here to learn the craft. please guide me. do not fight. it makes me very sad.
:cry

[A Pathetic Writer]

/agree with opty. I wouldn't have posted as forcefully as I did if I'd thought your message had any validity, basis in truth, or common sense.

Trying to deny accountability for the things you say will not improve your reputation here. Nor will personal attacks in every single post. I'm appalled at how hateful you seem.