Where is the Romance????

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Gillhoughly

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I don't often give into a rant, but this put a burr under my saddle.

Yesterday I got the new RT Book Reviews magazine. Inside was an excerpt from what looked to be an erotica book from a new small publisher. This segment was to lure me into buying the rest for some hot reading material.

Hey, I'm ALL in favor of that! Bring it on!

It was a key scene and supposedly an example of the writer's best stuff.

The scene indicated that the hero saved the girl from a Terrible Fate, so (like it or not) she has to have sex with him.

It's the like it or not part that bothers me. HE made the decision and HE is going to have his way. She has no say-so, no choice.

I suppose it's that alpha-male crap that's so popular. I like a strong man, but he dang well better listen to my side of things or end up walking funny--if he still has legs.

To this romance reader, writer, and editor it read like the lead-in to rape. I have a big problem with that sort of thing. I find anything to do with rape to be a complete turn-off.

Had that scene been written with the lady also being steamy, turned-on, and wanting to commit screaming hot circus nookie with the guy, I'd have thrown my money down just that quick.

BUT--she was reluctant, scared, in doubt, and the decision was out of her hands.

That makes her a victim, not a heroine.

I hate victims and bullies. I love heroines and heroes. There's a big dif between the two concepts.

To me the guy was just another rapist. My personal take is that all rapists should get the needle and remove 'em from the gene pool, but that's just me.

Hopefully I can get on with my own writing. I had to spit out the bad taste put in my head by that short--and, to my editor's eye, ineptly-written--excerpt. (Trust me, had the writer brought THAT to one of my workshops it would have been shredded into compost. Once she stopped bleeding we'd have put her on to a few tips about how to improve it.)

So here's the reader in me howling in the wilderness: I want ROMANCE in my erotica and ROMANCE in my ROMANCES! I want BOTH parties to be wanting each other! This rapist/victim stuff...well...ick. I suppose there's a market for it, but include me out.

I'll give my eyes a good scrub with the ol' eye-bleach, then go back to work. (You can bet good money the ladies in my books are just as hot for the guys as the gents are for them.)

Thanks for the soapbox space.
 
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veinglory

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I happen to agree with you but super-alpha male and so called 'forced seduction' is a huge part of the market. And for people who like that, that's great and I don't have a problem with including it. But now super-alpha is so routine that it is considered mainstream and I keep buying the stuff by accident because the blurb doesn't indicate the man is going to pushing the girl around, being a Dom without her explicitly agreeing to be a sub, have sex with her when she says no because he knows better, use derogatory language etc etc. This is a publication that excludes homosexual love from 'romance' but includes acts with non-consenting partners--color me confused.
 
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aliajohnson

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I am 100% in agreement! I know rape is a big fantasy among women. (The whys and hows of that are long and complicated). There's a HUGE difference, however, between hot hot hot romance and porn for women. They each have their place, and I don't want thefirst mixed up in my second.


This is me--:hooray:

Cheering for you --:Soapbox:
 

JanDarby

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Argh. I must live an extremely sheltered life. Haven't seen the "forced seduction" thing since the 70s, when it was a major part of the culture, when women were more deeply into the conflict between wanting sex and not wanting to admit that they wanted sex, so forced seduction kinda' solved everything.

Hey, maybe that'll be my new marketing niche: Read my books, and I promise there'll be NO forced seduction.

JD
 

veinglory

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I think forced seduction is making a serious comeback. I stopped reviewing general romance where the books are issued to you, because I got books that went as far as women abjucted from their husbands and trained with shock collars and drugs to love and sexually service their masters. And this on general shelved romance. I also came across some "BDSM" (I don't think it really was) apparently written by people who are vague on the difference between sexual play and spousal abuse.

It is a kink and everyone is welcome to their kinks, but please please please have it indicated in the blurb so I can buy only the ones I like!
 

aliajohnson

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veinglory said:
It is a kink and everyone is welcome to their kinks, but please please please have it indicated in the blurb so I can buy only the ones I like!

Absolutely. This is a big one for me. I picked up a paranormal romance recently I thought was going to be about werewolves. Fun, right? No. It was all about S&M. Not my cup of tea.

Two other things I'd like to know in advance are:

Huge age differences. Lots of people don't mind the May/December thing. I do. Thirty five year old men having sex with eighteen year olds is just . . . ick. I know it was common enough at one time--but so was not bathing. Not really interested in reading about that either.

Huge, long, half book back stories. I read a partial in the back of one author's book and thought--oh, I'm getting this one. Turns out that bit (where the hero and heroine are introduced) doesn't happen for like two hundred pages. Very, very, very annoying.
 

Zannie

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JanDarby said:
Argh. I must live an extremely sheltered life. Haven't seen the "forced seduction" thing since the 70s, when it was a major part of the culture, when women were more deeply into the conflict between wanting sex and not wanting to admit that they wanted sex, so forced seduction kinda' solved everything.

It does seem strange to me that "forced seduction" has made such a big comeback recently--when women are ostensibly embracing their power and choice in terms of sexuality and so the psychological need to fantasize about "guilt-free" sex shouldn't be such an issue. In fact, from my limited observation, forced seduction has risen again in popularity with the growth of the erotic romance/women's erotica genre. I was just thinking about this issue yesterday, since I just sold my first erotic romance and was actually wondering if it was going to sell well since there's nothing close to forced seduction/male dom in it.

I've read a number of different explanations for the continued trend--from women unconsciously needing to turn their innate fear of rape into something less fearful to theories based on biological evolutionary impulses. But, from all evidence, for a lot of women, there's nothing hotter than reading about sexual pleasure that's imposed on a woman in some way.

The main problem I've noticed is what veinglory just alluded to--that some of these books are written by people who don't appear to have the knowledge, experience, or maturity to handle the issues well. It will always be a tricky (and controversial) issue, but I think such scenarios can be written in a way that makes it clear there is choice, power, and pleasure on both sides. Sadly, that's not always what we see, which is when I want to get up on the soapbox with Gillhoughly.
 
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aliajohnson

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I was just thinking about this issue yesterday, since I just sold my first erotic romance and was actually wondering if it was going to sell well since there's nothing close to forced seduction/male dom in it.

I know I've been reluctant to move over to erotica for fear that I'm going to run into more of what we've been talking about. If I knew a particular book stayed away from the forced seduction, I'd be more likely to buy it. MUCH more likely. I can't imagine I'm alone in that.
 

Gillhoughly

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Thanks gang.

I had wondered if I was alone on this point. Quite a few titles seem to go great guns with the "quick, get 'em in the sack by any means or excuse!" while short-changing readers on a well done emotional build up to such a scene.

I want heroes who are indeed heroic and the heroines are gals I can admire and root for; not only should they be hot for each other but IN LOVE!

Call me a softy, but I wanna li'l ROMANCE, dang it!

------------------------------
GEORGE: What is it you want, Mary? What do you want? You want the moon? Just say the word and I'll throw a lasso around it and pull it down. Hey, that's a pretty good idea. I'll give you the moon, Mary.

MARY: I'll take it. And then what?

GEORGE: Well, then you could swallow it and it'd all dissolve, see? And the moonbeams'd shoot out of your fingers and your toes, and the ends of your hair. Am I talking too much?

MAN: Yes!! Why don't you kiss her instead of talking her to death?

GEORGE: How's that?

MAN: Why don't you kiss her instead of talking her to death?

GEORGE: Want me to kiss her, huh?

MAN: Aw, youth is wasted on the wrong people.

GEORGE: Hey, hey, hold on. Hey, mister, come on back out here, and I'll show you some kissing that'll put hair back on your head.

(Courtesy of http://corky.net/scripts/itsAWonderfulLife.html)
 

Maprilynne

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I think there is a really fine line between, say, a virgin in the hands of a seductor and a virgin in the grip of a seductor.

I think it's kind of fun to see an alpha male who has this virgin woman (or, my favorite, a woman who has never had a good sexual experience) and they are nervous and a little scared and the anticipation is heavy in the air as the alpha male shows them what good sex is. But there has to be an anxious and cooperative woman. The man can be dominative and in charge without an ounce of force.

I read a book several years ago where a young heroine married an abusive man of title (I don't remember) and he pretty much brutally raped her every night. So she has fallen in love with this nice, but poorer man, who she has great sex with, but what does he do every night after their little fling in his budoir? HE SENDS HER BACK TO THE BASTARD!!! He waits till he can defeat the abusive husband honorably and asks her to be patient for him.

Patient my ***, he's sending her back to be raped!! Get her the hell out of there. I could not feel sympathetic (much less amorous) toward the hero because he was an accessory to rape!

I guess nothing says 'I love you' like "go get raped so i can uphold my honor and reputation."

<sigh>

Maprilynne
 

Carlene

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I'm sorry but I disagree that "most women fantisize about rape." Rape is not about sex, it's about control and there is nothing romantic about being forced to have sex with a stranger.
 

bylinebree

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Maprilynne said:
I think it's kind of fun to see an alpha male who has this virgin woman (or, my favorite, a woman who has never had a good sexual experience) and they are nervous and a little scared and the anticipation is heavy in the air as the alpha male shows them what good sex is. But there has to be an anxious and cooperative woman. The man can be dominative and in charge without an ounce of force.


Maprilynne

I totally enjoy this scenario too, though it is a little archaic (my next book takes a little spin in this direction) Desert Heat by Cat Martin (hope I got that right!) is like that.

I even like the twist on the opposite - a guy who's only been "used & abused" and then finds a woman who changes his perceptions, bit by bit.
 

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Carlene said:
Rape is not about sex, it's about control and there is nothing romantic about being forced to have sex with a stranger.

Ahh, but that's just it--the rape fantasy is not a romantic fantasy. It's a purely sexual fantasy. I'd agree that it's probably not most women who have this fantasy, but I'd say a great many of them do. Understand though that this fantasy in no way whatsoever translates into a desire to be raped; in fact, it connects very little at all mentally with thoughts of real rape (because, indeed, real rape is all about control, but this fantasy is a sexual one). And these women will have romantic sexual fantasies too, which are separate. But the 'rape fantasy' brings on a sort of...irrational sexual 'zing.' It's like, I could be all alone feelin' a little horny, so I'm gonna have a quickie two-minute fantasy about some mancake pinning me down and having his way with me. Why is this a turn-on for many women? God knows. But it is. It sort of verges into what Maprilynne described; the alpha male seducing the virgin or the never-experienced-real-passion-before woman (one of my favorites too! :D ), where the woman is nervous due to her lack of or bad experience, but indeed she really does want to be with the man, and he guides her down the path to passion hesitantly but willingly. which is a much more satisfying fantasy, really.

But, thing is, the 'rape fantasy' may be a cheap way to a sexual thrill, but it kills a romance dead. How can I possibly ever see the male lead in a romantic light ever again after he's done that? And how can I respect a female lead who falls for him after that? (hell, how can I respect a female lead who doesn't castrate him after that?). The scene may be 'sexy', by the standards of some, but it don't belong in a romance novel, and I don't wanna see it there.

This is what bothers me about a lot of romances. The authors are so desperate to get the characters to have sex as soon as possible, that I feel like there's no development going on. They lust for each other, they do it, boom they're in love. Nuh-uh. My suspension of disbelief is gone.

I don't read romance novels because I want a sexual fantasy; I'd go on the internet if I wanted that. I want a romantic fantasy; I want to feel love, and once the characters have started emotionally and physically abusing each other like that, I can't ever believe there'll be real love between them. Love and sex, or lust and love, are all too often confused by some authors.
 

Cathy C

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Ah, but see--that's the whole issue in many cases. It's the "loss of control" that some women like to read about. Actually, it doesn't much matter to those who like dominance games whether it's the male or female who is the aggressor (i.e., the person in control.) But the loss of control is important.

Personally, while I have a thing for Alphas (male and female) readers don't actually want to read about REAL Alphas. Real Alpha personalities have a very difficult time maintaining lasting relationships. That intensity and drive can be very offputting in the long haul. I find it extremely annoying when a perfectly good Alpha is stripped in order to "fit" them into a romance. The smart girl turns TSTL (too stupid to live,) the tough-as-nails guy turns into a cream puff whose only thoughts are of his brand new sweetie--despite the fact that he's NEVER worried about another person, including his family.

Sheesh!

But I agree with you Gillhoughly. Not my thing. But the numbers are apparently high enough that the big pubs are giving that type of stories a go. :Shrug: We'll see eventually what the returns look like. It's still too early to judge.
 

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Tallymark said:
Understand though that this fantasy in no way whatsoever translates into a desire to be raped; in fact, it connects very little at all mentally with thoughts of real rape (because, indeed, real rape is all about control, but this fantasy is a sexual one).

Yes. Yes! Rape/forced seduction fantasies are only sexual fantasies, and have nothing to do with what the women would actually want to happen in real life. Rape is not about sex, and thus these fantasies can never be used as an excuse for non-consensual sex. There seems to also be a kind of sexual thrill for some in reading erotica that hints of bestiality or semi-incest. But few (or maybe none) of these writers/readers/people who indulge in such fantasies would a) want to participate in the activities for real and 2) approve of those who do.

But, thing is, the 'rape fantasy' may be a cheap way to a sexual thrill, but it kills a romance dead. How can I possibly ever see the male lead in a romantic light ever again after he's done that? And how can I respect a female lead who falls for him after that? (hell, how can I respect a female lead who doesn't castrate him after that?). The scene may be 'sexy', by the standards of some, but it don't belong in a romance novel, and I don't wanna see it there.

This, I think, is where the skill of the writer plays a part in it. I've read some romance novels that deal with the psychology surrounding forced seduction in such a way that takes the consequences seriously and manages to restore the power balance in the end enough to make a romantic ending possible (a stretch, yes, but possible in the fictional world). But, when it's not handled with subtlety, maturity, and some convincing psychological depth, you have a woman riding off into the sunset with her rapist and . . . *shudder*

I suppose that's one of the real challenges in writing erotic romances--tapping into sexual fantasies (which often preclude a plausible HEA) to make it as hot as possible while still developing a convincing romance.
 

veinglory

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I think be 'forced' it is an excedingly common female fantasy--it turns up a lot in thise sexual surveys like the Hite Report, who knows why. And there is a pretty sharp fiction real life/reality dividison in these areas. Like me really liking gay erotic romance, which does not reflect a literal desire on my part to be a man (gay or otherwise).

Just where do these kinks come from, I don't think we really know. I've seen 5-6 totally different explanations for the gay male fetish in female writers and readers and none of them seemed quite right. These thing are conditioned at an emotional level and the odds are I wouldn't know the right explanation if I did see it.
 
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Gillhoughly

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*sigh*

No more rape, forced seduction, loss of control yadda-yadda-yadda, however popular.

Let's just fall in love. Romantic love. Love where he and she are blindsided, smitten, off the cliff, and going over Niagara Falls in a barrel in looooove.

I've just finished seeing Top Hat for the zillionth time and it just keeps getting better.

I'll take Astaire and Rogers dancing on their own reflections over any alpha male and his wimpy sub in a Nyew Yawk minnit !
icon10.gif


Now I'm gonna see if I've got a DVD of Bringing Up Baby around here or maybe The Philadelpha Story....

&&&&&&&s to those bloody alphas. Gimme Fred Astaire, Cary Grant, and Jimmy Stewart spiffy and sharp in their Tuxedos, hair combed, shoes polished, and being wonderfully flummoxed by their ladies--I can take it!
 
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veinglory

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Didn't watch much John Wayne? I seem to remember he ended up spanking the leading lady in a few of his movies... 7 Brides for 7 Brothers?

;)
 

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"*sigh*

No more rape, forced seduction, loss of control yadda-yadda-yadda, however popular
"

I'm with Gillhoughly. Romantic love, ah there's nothing like it...except maybe paranormal romantic love, hee hee

My but this is kind of depressing all this, in control, not in control, who's the boss, do it anyway, etc., I'm the king of the castle....

I love romantic love.

Cheers, Josie:D
 

WriterInChains

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OK, veinglory, I have to read that story (as long as there's really guacamole)! Title?? :)
 

veinglory

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Sorry, I made that up. I am writing one about a man who transforms into 20 enormous rats and it involves yoghurt, will that do?
 

veinglory

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Sigh. Nobody likes my sexy were-rat. I'm having to hide him in an anthology with a wolf, bear, owl and pussycat. Oops, threadjacking in progress.
 
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