Where is the Romance????

[Gillhoughly]

I don't often give into a rant, but this put a burr under my saddle.

Yesterday I got the new RT Book Reviews magazine. Inside was an excerpt from what looked to be an erotica book from a new small publisher. This segment was to lure me into buying the rest for some hot reading material.

Hey, I'm ALL in favor of that! Bring it on!

It was a key scene and supposedly an example of the writer's best stuff.

The scene indicated that the hero saved the girl from a Terrible Fate, so (like it or not) she has to have sex with him.

It's the like it or not part that bothers me. HE made the decision and HE is going to have his way. She has no say-so, no choice.

I suppose it's that alpha-male crap that's so popular. I like a strong man, but he dang well better listen to my side of things or end up walking funny--if he still has legs.

To this romance reader, writer, and editor it read like the lead-in to rape. I have a big problem with that sort of thing. I find anything to do with rape to be a complete turn-off.

Had that scene been written with the lady also being steamy, turned-on, and wanting to commit screaming hot circus nookie with the guy, I'd have thrown my money down just that quick.

BUT--she was reluctant, scared, in doubt, and the decision was out of her hands.

That makes her a victim, not a heroine.

I hate victims and bullies. I love heroines and heroes. There's a big dif between the two concepts.

To me the guy was just another rapist. My personal take is that all rapists should get the needle and remove 'em from the gene pool, but that's just me.

Hopefully I can get on with my own writing. I had to spit out the bad taste put in my head by that short--and, to my editor's eye, ineptly-written--excerpt. (Trust me, had the writer brought THAT to one of my workshops it would have been shredded into compost. Once she stopped bleeding we'd have put her on to a few tips about how to improve it.)

So here's the reader in me howling in the wilderness: I want ROMANCE in my erotica and ROMANCE in my ROMANCES! I want BOTH parties to be wanting each other! This rapist/victim stuff...well...ick. I suppose there's a market for it, but include me out.

I'll give my eyes a good scrub with the ol' eye-bleach, then go back to work. (You can bet good money the ladies in my books are just as hot for the guys as the gents are for them.)

Thanks for the soapbox space.

[veinglory]

I happen to agree with you but super-alpha male and so called 'forced seduction' is a huge part of the market. And for people who like that, that's great and I don't have a problem with including it. But now super-alpha is so routine that it is considered mainstream and I keep buying the stuff by accident because the blurb doesn't indicate the man is going to pushing the girl around, being a Dom without her explicitly agreeing to be a sub, have sex with her when she says no because he knows better, use derogatory language etc etc. This is a publication that excludes homosexual love from 'romance' but includes acts with non-consenting partners--color me confused.

[aliajohnson]

I am 100% in agreement! I know rape is a big fantasy among women. (The whys and hows of that are long and complicated). There's a HUGE difference, however, between hot hot hot romance and porn for women. They each have their place, and I don't want thefirst mixed up in my second.


This is me--:hooray:

Cheering for you --:Soapbox:

[JanDarby]

Argh. I must live an extremely sheltered life. Haven't seen the "forced seduction" thing since the 70s, when it was a major part of the culture, when women were more deeply into the conflict between wanting sex and not wanting to admit that they wanted sex, so forced seduction kinda' solved everything.

Hey, maybe that'll be my new marketing niche: Read my books, and I promise there'll be NO forced seduction.

JD

[veinglory]

I think forced seduction is making a serious comeback. I stopped reviewing general romance where the books are issued to you, because I got books that went as far as women abjucted from their husbands and trained with shock collars and drugs to love and sexually service their masters. And this on general shelved romance. I also came across some "BDSM" (I don't think it really was) apparently written by people who are vague on the difference between sexual play and spousal abuse.

It is a kink and everyone is welcome to their kinks, but please please please have it indicated in the blurb so I can buy only the ones I like!

[aliajohnson]

It is a kink and everyone is welcome to their kinks, but please please please have it indicated in the blurb so I can buy only the ones I like!

Absolutely. This is a big one for me. I picked up a paranormal romance recently I thought was going to be about werewolves. Fun, right? No. It was all about S&M. Not my cup of tea.

Two other things I'd like to know in advance are:

Huge age differences. Lots of people don't mind the May/December thing. I do. Thirty five year old men having sex with eighteen year olds is just . . . ick. I know it was common enough at one time--but so was not bathing. Not really interested in reading about that either.

Huge, long, half book back stories. I read a partial in the back of one author's book and thought--oh, I'm getting this one. Turns out that bit (where the hero and heroine are introduced) doesn't happen for like two hundred pages. Very, very, very annoying.

[Zannie]

Argh. I must live an extremely sheltered life. Haven't seen the "forced seduction" thing since the 70s, when it was a major part of the culture, when women were more deeply into the conflict between wanting sex and not wanting to admit that they wanted sex, so forced seduction kinda' solved everything.

It does seem strange to me that "forced seduction" has made such a big comeback recently--when women are ostensibly embracing their power and choice in terms of sexuality and so the psychological need to fantasize about "guilt-free" sex shouldn't be such an issue. In fact, from my limited observation, forced seduction has risen again in popularity with the growth of the erotic romance/women's erotica genre. I was just thinking about this issue yesterday, since I just sold my first erotic romance and was actually wondering if it was going to sell well since there's nothing close to forced seduction/male dom in it.

I've read a number of different explanations for the continued trend--from women unconsciously needing to turn their innate fear of rape into something less fearful to theories based on biological evolutionary impulses. But, from all evidence, for a lot of women, there's nothing hotter than reading about sexual pleasure that's imposed on a woman in some way.

The main problem I've noticed is what veinglory just alluded to--that some of these books are written by people who don't appear to have the knowledge, experience, or maturity to handle the issues well. It will always be a tricky (and controversial) issue, but I think such scenarios can be written in a way that makes it clear there is choice, power, and pleasure on both sides. Sadly, that's not always what we see, which is when I want to get up on the soapbox with Gillhoughly.

[aliajohnson]

I was just thinking about this issue yesterday, since I just sold my first erotic romance and was actually wondering if it was going to sell well since there's nothing close to forced seduction/male dom in it.

I know I've been reluctant to move over to erotica for fear that I'm going to run into more of what we've been talking about. If I knew a particular book stayed away from the forced seduction, I'd be more likely to buy it. MUCH more likely. I can't imagine I'm alone in that.

[Gillhoughly]

Thanks gang.

I had wondered if I was alone on this point. Quite a few titles seem to go great guns with the "quick, get 'em in the sack by any means or excuse!" while short-changing readers on a well done emotional build up to such a scene.

I want heroes who are indeed heroic and the heroines are gals I can admire and root for; not only should they be hot for each other but IN LOVE!

Call me a softy, but I wanna li'l ROMANCE, dang it!

------------------------------
GEORGE: What is it you want, Mary? What do you want? You want the moon? Just say the word and I'll throw a lasso around it and pull it down. Hey, that's a pretty good idea. I'll give you the moon, Mary.

MARY: I'll take it. And then what?

GEORGE: Well, then you could swallow it and it'd all dissolve, see? And the moonbeams'd shoot out of your fingers and your toes, and the ends of your hair. Am I talking too much?

MAN: Yes!! Why don't you kiss her instead of talking her to death?

GEORGE: How's that?

MAN: Why don't you kiss her instead of talking her to death?

GEORGE: Want me to kiss her, huh?

MAN: Aw, youth is wasted on the wrong people.

GEORGE: Hey, hey, hold on. Hey, mister, come on back out here, and I'll show you some kissing that'll put hair back on your head.

(Courtesy of http://corky.net/scripts/itsAWonderfulLife.html (http://corky.net/scripts/itsAWonderfulLife.html))

[Maprilynne]

I think there is a really fine line between, say, a virgin in the hands of a seductor and a virgin in the grip of a seductor.

I think it's kind of fun to see an alpha male who has this virgin woman (or, my favorite, a woman who has never had a good sexual experience) and they are nervous and a little scared and the anticipation is heavy in the air as the alpha male shows them what good sex is. But there has to be an anxious and cooperative woman. The man can be dominative and in charge without an ounce of force.

I read a book several years ago where a young heroine married an abusive man of title (I don't remember) and he pretty much brutally raped her every night. So she has fallen in love with this nice, but poorer man, who she has great sex with, but what does he do every night after their little fling in his budoir? HE SENDS HER BACK TO THE BASTARD!!! He waits till he can defeat the abusive husband honorably and asks her to be patient for him.

Patient my ***, he's sending her back to be raped!! Get her the hell out of there. I could not feel sympathetic (much less amorous) toward the hero because he was an accessory to rape!

I guess nothing says 'I love you' like "go get raped so i can uphold my honor and reputation."

<sigh>

Maprilynne

[Carlene]

I'm sorry but I disagree that "most women fantisize about rape." Rape is not about sex, it's about control and there is nothing romantic about being forced to have sex with a stranger.

[bylinebree]

I think it's kind of fun to see an alpha male who has this virgin woman (or, my favorite, a woman who has never had a good sexual experience) and they are nervous and a little scared and the anticipation is heavy in the air as the alpha male shows them what good sex is. But there has to be an anxious and cooperative woman. The man can be dominative and in charge without an ounce of force.


Maprilynne

I totally enjoy this scenario too, though it is a little archaic (my next book takes a little spin in this direction) Desert Heat by Cat Martin (hope I got that right!) is like that.

I even like the twist on the opposite - a guy who's only been "used & abused" and then finds a woman who changes his perceptions, bit by bit.

[Tallymark]

Rape is not about sex, it's about control and there is nothing romantic about being forced to have sex with a stranger.

Ahh, but that's just it--the rape fantasy is not a romantic fantasy. It's a purely sexual fantasy. I'd agree that it's probably not most women who have this fantasy, but I'd say a great many of them do. Understand though that this fantasy in no way whatsoever translates into a desire to be raped; in fact, it connects very little at all mentally with thoughts of real rape (because, indeed, real rape is all about control, but this fantasy is a sexual one). And these women will have romantic sexual fantasies too, which are separate. But the 'rape fantasy' brings on a sort of...irrational sexual 'zing.' It's like, I could be all alone feelin' a little horny, so I'm gonna have a quickie two-minute fantasy about some mancake pinning me down and having his way with me. Why is this a turn-on for many women? God knows. But it is. It sort of verges into what Maprilynne described; the alpha male seducing the virgin or the never-experienced-real-passion-before woman (one of my favorites too! :D ), where the woman is nervous due to her lack of or bad experience, but indeed she really does want to be with the man, and he guides her down the path to passion hesitantly but willingly. which is a much more satisfying fantasy, really.

But, thing is, the 'rape fantasy' may be a cheap way to a sexual thrill, but it kills a romance dead. How can I possibly ever see the male lead in a romantic light ever again after he's done that? And how can I respect a female lead who falls for him after that? (hell, how can I respect a female lead who doesn't castrate him after that?). The scene may be 'sexy', by the standards of some, but it don't belong in a romance novel, and I don't wanna see it there.

This is what bothers me about a lot of romances. The authors are so desperate to get the characters to have sex as soon as possible, that I feel like there's no development going on. They lust for each other, they do it, boom they're in love. Nuh-uh. My suspension of disbelief is gone.

I don't read romance novels because I want a sexual fantasy; I'd go on the internet if I wanted that. I want a romantic fantasy; I want to feel love, and once the characters have started emotionally and physically abusing each other like that, I can't ever believe there'll be real love between them. Love and sex, or lust and love, are all too often confused by some authors.

[Cathy C]

Ah, but see--that's the whole issue in many cases. It's the "loss of control" that some women like to read about. Actually, it doesn't much matter to those who like dominance games whether it's the male or female who is the aggressor (i.e., the person in control.) But the loss of control is important.

Personally, while I have a thing for Alphas (male and female) readers don't actually want to read about REAL Alphas. Real Alpha personalities have a very difficult time maintaining lasting relationships. That intensity and drive can be very offputting in the long haul. I find it extremely annoying when a perfectly good Alpha is stripped in order to "fit" them into a romance. The smart girl turns TSTL (too stupid to live,) the tough-as-nails guy turns into a cream puff whose only thoughts are of his brand new sweetie--despite the fact that he's NEVER worried about another person, including his family.

Sheesh!

But I agree with you Gillhoughly. Not my thing. But the numbers are apparently high enough that the big pubs are giving that type of stories a go. :Shrug: We'll see eventually what the returns look like. It's still too early to judge.

[Zannie]

Understand though that this fantasy in no way whatsoever translates into a desire to be raped; in fact, it connects very little at all mentally with thoughts of real rape (because, indeed, real rape is all about control, but this fantasy is a sexual one).

Yes. Yes! Rape/forced seduction fantasies are only sexual fantasies, and have nothing to do with what the women would actually want to happen in real life. Rape is not about sex, and thus these fantasies can never be used as an excuse for non-consensual sex. There seems to also be a kind of sexual thrill for some in reading erotica that hints of bestiality or semi-incest. But few (or maybe none) of these writers/readers/people who indulge in such fantasies would a) want to participate in the activities for real and 2) approve of those who do.

But, thing is, the 'rape fantasy' may be a cheap way to a sexual thrill, but it kills a romance dead. How can I possibly ever see the male lead in a romantic light ever again after he's done that? And how can I respect a female lead who falls for him after that? (hell, how can I respect a female lead who doesn't castrate him after that?). The scene may be 'sexy', by the standards of some, but it don't belong in a romance novel, and I don't wanna see it there.

This, I think, is where the skill of the writer plays a part in it. I've read some romance novels that deal with the psychology surrounding forced seduction in such a way that takes the consequences seriously and manages to restore the power balance in the end enough to make a romantic ending possible (a stretch, yes, but possible in the fictional world). But, when it's not handled with subtlety, maturity, and some convincing psychological depth, you have a woman riding off into the sunset with her rapist and . . . *shudder*

I suppose that's one of the real challenges in writing erotic romances--tapping into sexual fantasies (which often preclude a plausible HEA) to make it as hot as possible while still developing a convincing romance.

[veinglory]

I think be 'forced' it is an excedingly common female fantasy--it turns up a lot in thise sexual surveys like the Hite Report, who knows why. And there is a pretty sharp fiction real life/reality dividison in these areas. Like me really liking gay erotic romance, which does not reflect a literal desire on my part to be a man (gay or otherwise).

Just where do these kinks come from, I don't think we really know. I've seen 5-6 totally different explanations for the gay male fetish in female writers and readers and none of them seemed quite right. These thing are conditioned at an emotional level and the odds are I wouldn't know the right explanation if I did see it.

[Gillhoughly]

*sigh*

No more rape, forced seduction, loss of control yadda-yadda-yadda, however popular.

Let's just fall in love. Romantic love. Love where he and she are blindsided, smitten, off the cliff, and going over Niagara Falls in a barrel in looooove.

I've just finished seeing Top Hat for the zillionth time and it just keeps getting better.

I'll take Astaire and Rogers dancing on their own reflections over any alpha male and his wimpy sub in a Nyew Yawk minnit ! http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Now I'm gonna see if I've got a DVD of Bringing Up Baby around here or maybe The Philadelpha Story....

&&&&&&&s to those bloody alphas. Gimme Fred Astaire, Cary Grant, and Jimmy Stewart spiffy and sharp in their Tuxedos, hair combed, shoes polished, and being wonderfully flummoxed by their ladies--I can take it!

[veinglory]

Didn't watch much John Wayne? I seem to remember he ended up spanking the leading lady in a few of his movies... 7 Brides for 7 Brothers?

;)

[Josie]

"*sigh*

No more rape, forced seduction, loss of control yadda-yadda-yadda, however popular"

I'm with Gillhoughly. Romantic love, ah there's nothing like it...except maybe paranormal romantic love, hee hee

My but this is kind of depressing all this, in control, not in control, who's the boss, do it anyway, etc., I'm the king of the castle....

I love romantic love.

Cheers, Josie:D

[veinglory]

Yes, romantic love, gay romantic paranormal romance, on a space ship.

With handcuffs

and guacamole

...no?

[WriterInChains]

OK, veinglory, I have to read that story (as long as there's really guacamole)! Title?? :)

[veinglory]

Sorry, I made that up. I am writing one about a man who transforms into 20 enormous rats and it involves yoghurt, will that do?

[WriterInChains]

Maybe I'll just stick with your gay werewolf. Yogurt is too tart to mix with sex.

[veinglory]

Sigh. Nobody likes my sexy were-rat. I'm having to hide him in an anthology with a wolf, bear, owl and pussycat. Oops, threadjacking in progress.

[WriterInChains]

Oops, usually I just kill them. Sorry, Gillhoughly!

[Stacia Kane]

I'm interested in your sexy were-rat, Emily! I think the were-rat in the LKH books is the only interesting character she has left.


And rape fantasies remove responsibility from the fantasizer. It's giving themselves permission to enjoy the sex without guilt, without worrying if the rape-r is going to respect them in the morning, or if people will think badly of her for enjoying it. Someone stronger than she did all those things to her, and she couldn't help it, she couldn't stop it...so she had to enjoy it without her own emotional/sexual hang-ups in the way.

[aliajohnson]

I'm sorry but I disagree that "most women fantisize about rape." .

Hate to drag the depressing back into this, but I feel the irresistable urge to respond to this.


Yes--forced sex is, in fact, the most common of all sexual fantasies for women. Of the endless poles taken on this subject since human sexuality became a (mostly) valid area of research--that one has always come out on top. Usually by a landslide.

I took a whole long course on this. The whys of it are long and complicated and fascinating. Lots of material out there on the subject matter if anyone is interested.

Ah, the things you can learn at a liberal arts school.:D

Now:

What not to read into this:

A: Most women want to be raped.

Because no woman, in her right mind or out of it, wants to be raped. Sexual fantasies, for women in particular, are in no way indicative of things people would really do or want to have done to them.

Or:

B. I want to read about a woman being raped. Give me a hot and sweet love scene. It can be down and dirty--just leave the violence out.

[JulesJones]

Yes, romantic love, gay romantic paranormal romance, on a space ship.

With handcuffs

and guacamole

...no?

It was cheese spread, but otherwise that's pretty much what happens in one chapter in The Syndicate...

[veinglory]

LOL, that may well have been part of my inspiration ;)

[JulesJones]

Back to the original topic. Yes, there's an awful lot of "forced seduction" out there, and as far as I'm concerned some of it well and truly crosses the line into glamorising rape. I know that this is very popular with a lot of women, including some of my nearest and dearest friends (with all the stuff people have already said about this is fantasy and not what women would want in real life), and if that's their thing, fine. But it's not *my* thing, and when publishers say in their guidelines that they don't accept submissions that glamorise rape, I wish they'd actually stick by that. Or be honest, and label the books with that sort of content so that I can avoid it. It doesn't stop being rape just because the heroine or hero falls in love with their rapist. That's called Stockholm Syndrome.

I've written material that involves rape. And I made it clear that there was both a major difference in cultural attitudes to sex between the characters, and Stockholm Syndrome at work. Not "Oh, now I realise I'm in love with him, so it wasn't rape after all."

[veinglory]

I would like to make more of a comment about the trend but I wonder if I might go too far for the romance area. Like I think a substantial amount of paranromal romance is disguised super alpha (if it was just a guy he'd be an abussive secretive bastard and she'd be weak, but he's a vampire! right?). And in erotica there is this really weird stuff about men making woman have, um, rear sex when they don;t want to.

It sends me wandering of the to the happy realms of high fantasy fiction sometimes.

[JulesJones]

Trying to remember that this is not the erotica forum... I think one of the appeals of vampire erotica and romance is very much that it's super alpha that allows the reader to have that man-taking-charge thrill, but *without* having to make the woman weak and helpless just because she's a woman.

It also gives you a real and serious power differential to play with in consensual scenes, of course. Non-erotica, and in fact not primarily romance, but P N Elrod uses this in her Vampire Files series. Jack Fleming's a nice guy with supernatural powers that have a price, and he's always aware of how easily he could abuse that power over normal humans.

[Josie]

Trying to remember that this is not the erotica forum... I think one of the appeals of vampire erotica and romance is very much that it's super alpha that allows the reader to have that man-taking-charge thrill, but *without* having to make the woman weak and helpless just because she's a woman.

It also gives you a real and serious power differential to play with in consensual scenes, of course. Non-erotica, and in fact not primarily romance, but P N Elrod uses this in her Vampire Files series. Jack Fleming's a nice guy with supernatural powers that have a price, and he's always aware of how easily he could abuse that power over normal humans.

So do we have a bit of chauvinism here? Does the woman have to be weak and helpless because she's a woman and he's a super alpha vampire. :heart: Does this appeal more to the female reader if the vampire is a cad? And is cad preferred over romance? I do like paranormal romance but I dont know if I like it better with erotic sex, as to me it loses a lot in the translation. I find it boring.:sleepy:

Maybe I'm a prude.

Simplistically said Josie

[veinglory]

The whole point being made was that a normal women is differentially weaker c.f. a vampire, pretty much by definition uless he is the kind of vampire that is weak and ugly -- so chauvanistic only to the extend that women seem to want to read romance with a power differential favoring the male.

Personally, I prefer the reverse, but outside of erotica nobody seems to write that.

[JulesJones]

Yes -- a normal woman is weaker than a vampire, because *any* normal human, male or female, is weaker than a vampire. Not because women are intrinsically weak.

I prefer the power differential favouring the female as well (well, I prefer m/m, but if I'm going to read het I'd rather read femdom than maledom), but it seems to be more a question of nobody *publishes* that outside erotica and occasionally erotic romance. Or maybe I'm not looking in the right places. There's some good stuff in the erotic romance publishers' catalogue -- for example, I was very taken with Stephanie Vaughan's Cruel To Be Kind.

[veinglory]

I prefer thing more on the sweet and without sexual play--just the women being and alpha type and the man not. That said, I've never found a romance that does that other than perhaps the Forest King.

[Gillhoughly]

The way this thread has gone leads me to think no one is interested in a good ol' love story regardless of the species of the characters. It ain't love, it's a power struggle.

Sad to say--except for a very few writers whose work I love and respect--there's not much romance in the romances now. The way I'm wired I'm less interested in who the characters go to bed with, but who they wake up to the next morning.

I've read dang few books that make the follow-through as interesting as the nookie. I've also noticed those writers able to do that have steady sales and a very loyal readership. There's something to learn from them on that point.

Remember Cary Grant and Audrey Hepburn in Charade--at one point he says "Your face." She says "What about my face?" He: "It's beautiful." And she just melts.

Or Gene Kelly and Debbie Reynolds in Singin' in the Rain--recall the way he sang to her in that empty sound stage (http://www.gonemovies.com/WWW/MyWebFilms/Drama/SingingTrap.asp)? Wow.

Or Cary Grant chasing Pricilla Lane around the tree in Arsenic and Old Lace? And that was after they got married. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif (Okay, the honeymoon was still ahead, but dang--I love the gleam in his eye!)
http://cinedestin.privatedns.com/films/a/ar/arsenicetvieillesdentelles4.jpg SMITTEN!

And one of my all time favorites, Fred and Ginger in the "Dancing Cheek to Cheek" number from Top Hat. THAT was sex on a dance floor.

I love nookie, but c'mon--how 'bout writing in some equally good emotional foreplay leading up to it?

Just a thought...
http://blog.sme.sk/blog/142/7181/clanok_foto.jpg *sigh!*

[veinglory]

I think maybe you misunderstand my position at least. I don't like power plays in my romance and more than you -- if you see Singing in the Rain as not including them--just power differential for the purpose of driving the plot.

This romance has a highly popular actor who falls in love with a struggling actress, the crucial reversal is where she think he is going to let her be enslaved as a voice actress to the studio. Admitted this is a perception that is incorrect but power is a huge part of the whole movie and an tension that must be overcome to allow a romance between equals when he acts to protect her career.

[Stacia Kane]

The way this thread has gone leads me to think no one is interested in a good ol' love story regardless of the species of the characters. It ain't love, it's a power struggle.



Perhaps this is because editors and agents are constantly telling us there must be conflict, conflict, conflict! or the book won't sell.

Personally, I think I've written some really romantic stuff, and I think there's a lot of other really romantic stuff out there.

Maybe the romantic books I've read use the word "groan", so you haven't read them? :)

[Gillhoughly]

Okay, you've got the panorama shot, but I'm focused on the closeup.

The bigger story in any movie moves along the MacGuffin, but it's that moment when the MCs look--really LOOK--at each other that we're able to see what it's really about. THAT'S what I want in a book--some idea that the writer knows what it is to be in love and able to put that feeling on the page.

I'll have a little Frank Capra and an extra large popcorn, please. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

[veinglory]

I think the ability to create that 'zing' is entirely independent of sub-genre. It is what separates the best, IMHO, for the rest--in romance.

[JulesJones]

If it's romance, it's about the relationship. There can be powerplay, but there has to be a relationship. And yes, I like stories both with and without consensual D/s powerplay, both as a reader and as a writer. I *don't* like non-consensual, not in something being marketed as romance.

[SLake]

I think non-consensual violence, sexual and non-sexual is a large factor of life, and of history, and for this reason it needs looking at in writing, not sidestepping. Bringing non-consensual back from its extreme of forced violence to lesser extremes, for example: being forced into housework as a chore, has within it a milder element of force. So racking the marker back from forced violence to forced chores, which are less controversial, it's possible to understand feelings, reactions and consequences.

Resentment, I think, is a consequence of being forced. Rack that back again to forced, non-consensual sexual violence and you'll have someone who's either destroyed, or a heroine who will, given the opportunity, fight back. In this respect I see forced non-consensual as a device--not a subtle device, but a device that can spur a heroine into action. There are subtler devices. The tryant who gradually wears the heroine down to the point where she'll take no more is subtle non-consensual violence, even if isn't sexual violence.

I think what you're objecting to is making a meal of non-consensual sexual violence, or for the sake of it, gratuitous type stuff. I agree, and a paragraph's enough for most of us, and there needs to be a darn good reason for it, but I disagree that it has no place in romance. It irks me that publishers are so narrow in their perspectives to state in their submission guidelines no rape. For Formula Romance Lines, ok. They want A meets B, with C the usual complications, ad infinitum. I can live with that. Bird Watcher mags don't want articles about shotguns, but life and even romance are about mixing birds and shotguns.

I think it should make you sit up, feel insulted, outraged. It demands vengeance, and justice even. Sexual violence is war, and war forges heroines too, so for that reason, I think it has a place in romance. In other words, the act isn't that important, per se, because romance is about emotion, and sexual violence invokes the most powerful emotions. Perhaps in a story the device may forever place the heroine on a hair-trigger regarding men.

To avoid discussing the subject in writing is surely to be safe; part of the status quo. There are women who suffer the consequences of sexual violence in silence, and the whole threat of that horror to those women makes me angry in their defence. I feel I must say something somehow, anything--offer comfort, a solution, a mind-space. Then I have to say something about the perpetrator. As writers, I think we must face such challenges, no matter how impossible or dark they seem, because who else will? Surely that is the cross we carry, to make the world think.

[veinglory]

I have read several romances in which the heroine was recovering from the effects of domestic abuse of some degree of severity in which rape was strongly implied or outright discussed as an obstacle in the new relationship. I think that is a totally separate issue to on page rape between the heroine and the hero intended to sexually tittilate. And even that, most here have said, is a legitimate fictional-sex kink.

[Tallymark]

I think that is a totally separate issue to on page rape between the heroine and the hero intended to sexually tittilate.

Exactly--I've got no problem with rape and abuse appearing in fiction, romance or not. In fact, I sometimes happen to like writing romance heroines who've got a bad background; it adds a whole new level to the problems the hero and heroine have in getting together. And--lets face it--writing heroines who've experienced this sort of thing is just realistic. The statistics of people who will experience rape or some other sexual abuse in their lifetime is appalingly high--odds are, somebody you know has, whether they're talking about it or not. And odds are they aren't talking. It is something women must deal with, so there is no reason heroines in novels shouldn't have to deal wit it either.

BUT, what we're talking about here is when the hero is committing the non-consensual acts. That's the problem. The hero is the intended romantic partner for the heroine--but if he's forcing her into sexual acts, then what the heck kind of hero is he? The same acts in a fiction novel would probably be posed in a negative light, and the person would be considered an abusive bad guy, but in romance it's just accepted.

If one wants to deal with the consequences of rape in romance, that's fine, but if it's the hero doing the raping, it ruins the whole romantic aspect of the story (which is, y'know, the point of a romance XD ).

I'll agree with other people earlier though that the alpha thing can work if its done right, especially I think in paranormal romance, where the guy has a reason he's acting so super-alpha, and where the value of every act of restraint is magnified. Lets face it, alpha male stories are hot. :D The problem is that some authors take it too far, and then don't deal with the realistic consequences.

[JulesJones]

SLake, as other people have said, you seem to have completely missed what we are talking about, which is the way some books marketed as romance glamorise rape -- the sort of thing I've seen described as "rape her till she likes it". Where the *hero* rapes the heroine, but that's all right because she needs to be raped to make her realise what a manly man he is. Where the rape is presented not as an awful experience, but as something for the reader to be titillated by.

What I said in my earlier post was "But it's not *my* thing, and when publishers say in their guidelines that they don't accept submissions that glamorise rape,". See that word "glamorise"? That's an important word, that is. It's a very different word to "include".

[SLake]

SLake, as other people have said, you seem to have completely missed what we are talking about, which is the way some books marketed as romance glamorise rape -- the sort of thing I've seen described as "rape her till she likes it". Where the *hero* rapes the heroine, but that's all right because she needs to be raped to make her realise what a manly man he is. Where the rape is presented not as an awful experience, but as something for the reader to be titillated by.

What I said in my earlier post was "But it's not *my* thing, and when publishers say in their guidelines that they don't accept submissions that glamorise rape,". See that word "glamorise"? That's an important word, that is. It's a very different word to "include".

Thanks for reminding me. *Glamorise* I must have missed that in the guidelines, or those I read didn't include the word. I guess Tallymark sums it all up with, if it's done right, (no pun intended). My post wasn't meant to be personal, and even now I'm wondering about Stockholm Syndrome and stolen women. Again, if it's done right, or skillfully, is the key, and no of course a heroine enjoying abuse is unbelievably perverse. Then again, there are people like that. But dredging all that up into the sober light of day and then into romance would certainly take some skill. Thankfully, I have other projects on the go.

[SLake]

...For Formula Romance Lines, ok. They want A meets B, with C the usual complications, ad infinitum. I can live with that.

My quote is the reason I returned, but was distracted by miffed JulesJones. I'm absolutely not being critical of Formula writers.

Barbara Cartland's writing, who I read because her writing was so frequently sniffed at as formula, I applaud for her adroit skill with images. There's the obvious Mills and Boon. In a slightly different vein there's Jenny Crusie of www.jennycrusie.com--so many others who have the dicipline to write consistently, frequently and exceedingly well. Then Jenny offers reams of excellent advice free, because she loves what she does.

I don't have their emotional strength. It's like my painting which is gorgeous, so I'm told, and I've had offers to be agented, but I'm just not a production type person. I cannot work to order. I get bored, irritated and money cannot inspire me. Maybe mine is a lesser inspiration. I can't splash it around as freely. So I just don't have that much inspiration to go around. They do.

Remember I'm a nobody, unpublished writer, feeling my way, flexing my muscles. What better place than this? Isn't that it's purpose, sheep and goats?

Curious that even here, remote behind my keyboard, I feel the stoney silences. Perhaps a belligerant child you'll point out my blunders, or maybe like such children, I expect too much.

Just thought I'd clear that up, re this topic.

[veinglory]

I'm a little confused as to what you're reacting to. You posted on a tangental issue that suggested you didn't get what we were discussing, so it was clarified. Now you think we were offended by something to do with formula writing? I think you may be reading significantly more into the posts than is there, at least as far as I can see.

[SLake]

I'm a little confused as to what you're reacting to. You posted on a tangental issue that suggested you didn't get what we were discussing, so it was clarified. Now you think we were offended by something to do with formula writing? I think you may be reading significantly more into the posts than is there, at least as far as I can see.

You'd be right, Veinglory. It's my fingers I blame--type, type, type. There's just no controlling them. The topic is the abhorrent nature of non-consensual sexual violence when it's done for the sake of it and does not compliment a story. The question of powerplay was also raised.

So there I was sitting on my little cloud, the topic beneath me, and I looked at where such a topic could lead and my fingers ran away with themselves on my keyboard, wondering. I wondered, or wandered too far. That seems to be the general opinion. It occurred to me that my comment about formula romance could have been taken the wrong way, so I felt embarrassed and decided I had to apologize that I had typed without thinking.

I also agreed, in not so many words that, yes, non-consensual sexual violence where the heroine is abused to the point that she likes it, seems awful and at best, unbelievable. BUT, I wondered what if there arose an obscure situation where that scenario could be true and believable. But, as I related, I was only idly wondering. I said, thankfully I have other projects, so it's a question that I won't be asking.

I put foward that I had the feeling that the subject was taboo. I inclined that I did not think it should be taboo to writers, but then you clarified my misconception nicely, as did JulesJones.

Thanks for asking where I'm at. Hope this helps.

[benbradley]

To sample the author's writing I recently read the first few pages of Janet Evanovich's "Hot Six" (the Six is apparently meant to be sex) and at the end of that section I wondered, did she give consent or not? Does anyone else read it that way?

[scarletpeaches]

Even Catherine Cookson did this, I think the book was The Dwelling Place.

I watched the TV dramatisation with my gran and got hot and bothered about the heroine falling in love with the man who had raped her (at the instigation of his sister, who hated the heroine).

My gran said, "Ah, but it's all right because he's changed now."

Oh...well that's okay then. He raped her years ago, and he's a better man these days, so she can fall in love with him.

Sorry, but that doesn't work for me. Yes, a rapist can change, and I wish that were always the case. But a woman, even one who can accept that her rapist regrets his crime, fall in love with that same man who forced her to have sex and have his illegitimate child? I don't think so.

What I found most offensive, though, was my gran's attitude that, "It's all right because..."

Rape is never 'all right', and reformation does not work retroactively. Self-improvement now does not make a crime then acceptable.

[Gillhoughly]

Rape is never 'all right', and reformation does not work retroactively. Self-improvement now does not make a crime then acceptable.

THANK YOU!

Had I seen that movie I'd have gakked right along with you and written a nasty letter to the network for perpetuating abuse.

I've had friends raped by their own spouses and B/Fs and it is never right, yet they do the denial thing: "Oh, it's ok, he was very sweet to me for a week afterward" "But he loves me, look at what he bought me to apologize." "I can't leave him, the kids need their (abusive rapist) father..."

No. Never. Absolutely never.

But in romance fiction--I still miss the romance.

Raise your hands, anyone who saw Overboard. (Spoilers ahead.)

There was the scene where macho Kurt Russell pretends to be drunk and makes a move to crawl all over Goldie Hawn. She says no, and he stops. "No boom-boom?" he wistfully asks--then he accepts her choice and sleeps elsewhere.

Yes, it was a sham, he was rattling her cage and never intended to follow through, but she didn't know that. Had she said (as a dutiful wife) yes, I knew he'd come up with some reason to not sleep with her.

For all his character's free-wheeling craziness and lack of anything visibly serious, he was at heart a gentleman. There are rules about that sort of thing--as Jimmy Stewart pointed out in The Philidelphia Story when he did not take advantage of a drunk Kate Hepburn.

I'll take a gentleman over an alpha-rapist in a Neyw Yawk minnut!

Can we experiment with writing alpha-male gentlemen and see what happens?

[scarletpeaches]

Alpha-male gentleman = someone who finds you incredibly sexually attractive (and desires ONLY you), doesn't try to turn a no or a not yet into a yes, waits patiently because you're worth it (sorry, but I use L'Oreal conditioner, maybe that's where I picked it up) and is the spitting image of Joaquin Phoenix.

Heck, he is Joaquin Phoenix!

Hey...this is my book; my heros can look how I want them to look!

Or is it 'heroes'? Hmm...

[Gillhoughly]

It's heroes.

And YES!

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8665/untitled5ak.png

Um--the headline is pure coincidence. Bwah!

[scarletpeaches]

I know this isn't very 'romantic' but...

I. SO. WOULD.

[MMcC]

John Wayne wasn't in 7 Brides but he spanked Maureen O'Hara in McClintock and did a very long "forced march" in The Quiet Man. In McClintock the charming store keeper, who shows a great dea of affection for the character in question, basically taunts Wayne's character til he hits her, to prove his dominance.

"You raise your voice, it does no good, you have to raise your hand."

Raise it to ME, jacka$$, see what happens.

I wrote an article some years ago about the connection between violent/forced/dominant sex as a trend and conservative/wartime/uptight political waves. Something to think about?

Perhaps the whole bloody country has a dose of testosterone poisoning.

[Gillhoughly]

Got your point on John Wayne and that was then, this is now. What was acceptable then, don't fly in this sky.

My idea is update those screen studs for THIS century and its women!

Let's do it, let's fall in LOVE.

It's all fantasy, might as well be a really nice one.

*sigh*

[Tallymark]

I've had friends raped by their own spouses and B/Fs and it is never right, yet they do the denial thing: "Oh, it's ok, he was very sweet to me for a week afterward" "But he loves me, look at what he bought me to apologize." "I can't leave him, the kids need their (abusive rapist) father..."


The amazing thing is that there's a lot of people who genuinely don't know that this is rape! Especially when the husband is the rapist. And it IS rape, both morally and legally. Just because you've had sex with them consentually before doesn't mean you've given away the right to say what is done with your own body; that right never goes away. It doesn't matter if you've had sex with them a thousand times before, or even if you had sex with him earlier that day; the minute they force you into a sexual act you did not want to participate in, it's rape--your body is yours, and anything done to it against your wishes is a violation. It truly appalls me how many people, men and women, don't get that.

I totally agree about the gentleman thing--I like my heroes alpha, but he'd also better be a gentleman, damn it. It's like how we all want the bad boy, but also want the teddy bear. And I don't see a reason why we can't have alpha-gentlemen! They can be rough, and tough, and seductive, and maybe even a little forceful sometimes, but when the girl really puts her foot down, he needs to know when to stop.

I think that's part of why forced-seduction kills a romance for me--sure, it may be steamy and sexy, but when the hero doesn't stop when she says no, that says to me that he has no respect for her whatsoever (or any respect for women at all, for that matter). And how am I supposed to believe that he loves her if he can't even respect her?

Now, one thing I've found sometimes in paranormals is that, because of the fantasy aspect, people can come up with situations in which the hero is not entirely in control of himself when he does these things--like, his werewolf instincts totally take over or something, turning him into a mindless yet lusty animal. In cases like that, the heroes actions are genuinely not his fault, making him not a bad guy...but I'm still not sure what I think of those stories, since realistically, the girl ought to still be traumatized. And really, is it truly necessary to do?

Lately I've been reading Susan Sizemore's vampire prime series, and when her vampires are in a bad state, the darker urges of their vampire nature (need to dominate, possess, etc.) can bleed into their thoughts, and we can see the scenarios starting to play in their mind--and then they fight them back down. In this case, I find the restraint to be very romantic--he's fighting to control himself because he cares about her. And really, in a Romance novel, shouldn't the goal of any titillating scene also be to advance the romance?

Instead of, y'know, derail it.

[veinglory]

I think it comes down to trust. I know romance plots are driven but certain kinds of doubt and misunderstanding. But IMHO this should not extent to the woman's ability to trust the man not to beat or force her. Maybe she'll think he doesn't love her, or is after her money or whatever, but not that he could be a rapist. That is an irreversable turn-off.

[Gillhoughly]

Yes, on the same page with you for TRUST! We lay ourselves open to a world of hurt when we fall in love, so trusting your partner is the the most important two-way road. You can love lots of people, but trust them?? That's the biggie.

As I'm fond of saying, it's not who you go to bed with, it's who you wake up to (notwithstanding a prepositional ending!).


And I am so PROUD of Susan Sizemore!!!!

Years back she was kicking out 60,000 words a WEEK in fanfic, and it was good stuff. At some convention where she was selling stuff at her dealer's table we got to talking about writing and turning pro. I liked her on sight and something inside prompted me to tell her: "This time next year you're going to be the writer guest."

She didn't quite believe me, but I pointed out that she had the drive to write, bordering on addiction. Whatever it was, she had it--the quality that means you will go pro and do well at it.

As it was it took two years, but day-um, she did it! Woot!

[Chasing the Horizon]

The amazing thing is that there's a lot of people who genuinely don't know that this is rape! Especially when the husband is the rapist. And it IS rape, both morally and legally. Just because you've had sex with them consensually before doesn't mean you've given away the right to say what is done with your own body; that right never goes away. It doesn't matter if you've had sex with them a thousand times before, or even if you had sex with him earlier that day; the minute they force you into a sexual act you did not want to participate in, it's rape--your body is yours, and anything done to it against your wishes is a violation. It truly appalls me how many people, men and women, don't get that. I know. And any romance that portrays rape as seduction only serves to further these kind of misconceptions. (And its totally disgusting, but that's another rant :) )

I totally agree about the gentleman thing--I like my heroes alpha, but he'd also better be a gentleman, damn it. It's like how we all want the bad boy, but also want the teddy bear. And I don't see a reason why we can't have alpha-gentlemen! They can be rough, and tough, and seductive, and maybe even a little forceful sometimes, but when the girl really puts her foot down, he needs to know when to stop. It seems like practically every romance out there has an alpha hero. Even when they are gentlemen, it just gets old. I prefer to write (and read) about couples who are equal. Neither really dominates the other. They compliment each other. (I do have to confess to writing an alpha character in my current WIP. But it's one of my heroines. :D I didn't consciously plan it, but I think it's a bit of a backlash at all the alpha heroes. When the heroine can kick all the hero's butts into next week, it kind of makes consent a non-issue.)

And really, in a Romance novel, shouldn't the goal of any titillating scene also be to advance the romance?

Instead of, y'know, derail it. One would think that's the idea. But some seem to miss it by a remarkably large distance.