Question for Fantasy Writers

Tia Nevitt · Nov 22, 2006

I have a question and I wonder what my fellow fantasy writers think.

There seems to be a taboo in mentioning that you are writing a series to agents, as if that would scare them away. However, as a fantasy reader, just about all I read are series. I have read very few standalone fantasies over the past ten years. There may be lots out there, but I'm just not seeing them. The ones I can recall are The Barbed Coil, Talechaser's Song and Green Rider, which actually continues in a sequel or two.

Therefore, I am wondering if the taboo in mentioning series to agents is even relevant to fantasy authors. Several of the agent guidelines that I have seen state that if it is a series, they want to know in the query.

My novel ends with a conclusion. There is a major battle and victory against terrific odds. However, a few plot threads remains open, which I will tie up in the third book.

Should I follow the advice I am getting and hide the fact that I am writing a trilogy? Or should I be forthcoming, since that is how I would want to be treated?

Thanks!
Tia

JBI · Nov 22, 2006

Depends on the quality of the book to be honest, and if you have been published before. The publisher is taking a big risk; if your stuff is promising, and looks like it will sell they will like a series, if it is a risk, they don't. It's better for you to write the third installment before approaching the publisher. That way they will know what to expect.

jchines · Nov 22, 2006

I did a panel on series vs. standalones last week, with Eric Flint. He's been with Baen Books for about 9 years, so I did more listening than talking

I've got a long write-up on my LJ at http://dsnight.livejournal.com/216527.html

The gist was that for first-time writers, you're probably better off working on standalones. Sell the book, and if the editor likes it, they'll ask you to do more. Readers do love series, like you said.

But while you could write all three books now, if the first one doesn't sell, there's a good chance you've wasted your time on the second and third.

JDCrayne · Nov 22, 2006

jchines said:
But while you could write all three books now, if the first one doesn't sell, there's a good chance you've wasted your time on the second and third.

I guess you could use Find & Replace to change the character names and locations and sell #2 and #3 as standalones too. Be creative!

JBI · Nov 27, 2006

Interesting, but I came across an article on prolonged waits for books. The markets now are anxious to buy finished work and not have to wait years for each installment to come. Though it takes a while to write a big fantasy book, publishers are more likely to give your book more thought if they can follow up with another one. I know plenty of readers who won't touch books until the whole series has been written.

I guess of course, there is the loop hole. If you round off all your books but keep some things constant like the setting, you can have the series feeling and marketing, but also maintain a sense of standalonism.

Mr. Funktastic · Nov 27, 2006

Personally, I enjoy the wait for the next book. I don't like cliffhangers, though. I bought Terry Goodkind's new release in the Sword of Truth series over the summer, Phantom, only for it to not really end. Each book needs to be able to stand on its own, I think. Raymond E. Feist comes to mind for doing well in that regard.

My WIP was originally intended as a standalone, but as I've written, I've come up with ideas for a sequel. I don't intend to start on said sequel until I'm pretty confident in the first novel.

I wouldn't mention that I'm writing a series, but I've never been published.

Annwyn · Nov 27, 2006

Oooh - that's a problem - I hate books that don't really end - but I find that I actually can't wait to buy the next book when it ends that way. Like recently I read the first in a series that doesn't really end, and I haven't bothered to get the next one - on the other hand, the cliff-hanger book that I read before that, well, I've been searching high and low for the next one. I'm DYING to read it...cliff-hangers have their place, and sometimes they are series because a 2000 page book isn't exactly marketable even for avid readers

As for mentioning that its a sequence, I've heard from agents that sometimes its good to mention it, mostly because it shows the agent that you aren't a one novel show.

dragonjax · Nov 28, 2006

When I wrote Hell's Belles, I purposefully ended it in such a way that it worked as a standalone...or as the start of a series. My agent liked it as a series kickoff, so I wrote up brief descriptions for the rest of the books in the series (5 for the main series arc, with 3 or 4 one-shot related stories). Kensington bought three books right out of the gate.

Maprilynne · Nov 28, 2006

Jackie's exactly right. Make it so it can be a stand-alone, but have more if they want it. As for mentioning that, I think you should wait until you have an interested agent or publisher. And, like Mr. Funktastic mentioned, you want some kind of resolution at the end of every book, even if the readers know another is coming. (I've heard a lot of complains about Terry Goodkind for that very reason.)
For example, take Harry Potter. It is part of a series, and you know you need to see more to get the whole story, but each individual book has a complete pot arc that resolves at the end of the book. That way you get some satisfaction.
Publishers like serieses (is that a word?

) because they can use a lot of the same publicity, they don't have to start on a new fan base, the general guidlines are already laid out, etc. What they don't like is a new author who really needs ten books to tell a single story for exactly the same reason they don't want a 300,000 page book. It's just too much. But a stand alone beginning with three or four self-contained stories following, yeah, they'll eat that up.

Maprilynne

HorrorWriter · Nov 28, 2006

Tia,
There is nothing wrong with mentioning a possible series for your novel. My manuscript, which is currently out on submission, can be a standalone, but it is actually the first in my series. I agree with Jackie, end as if it were a standalone, just in case no one wants a series from it. Literary agent Ginger Clark asks that you include whether or not you have a series in your query letter. I included it in mine and she and a few other agents have requested partials so far. So it cannot hurt. They all likes the premise. Just write well and don't sweat the small stuff!

Tallymark · Nov 28, 2006

The tricky bit is there's more than one kind of series, really (and all the fuzzy areas inbetween). There's series with one continuous adventure, like David Eddings' The Belgariad, where in each book the current task at hand is accomplished at the end, but the overall adventure continues where the previous book left off. Then there's series like Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern, where the books are all in the same setting, and may sometimes involve the same characters, but for the most part are standalone stories. You can read every book to get the overall history of the people of Pern, but in each book the story is done.

The latter kind is probably the safest for a new author to do...but admittedly, I think my current work is going to end up like the former. XD

jamiehall · Nov 28, 2006

I've been confused on this issue too. Mainly because I've seen both types of advice from professionals. Some say that the idea that a series is in the works will entice agents (agents want authors who keep producing, and a series can make more money - if the books in the series can be sold in the first place) while others say that this very same idea will scare away an agent.

I expect that, like most things which experts give contradictory advice about, both things are actually true: a series can easily scare or entice an agent, depending on personal taste and a lot of other factors.

I'd probably research each individual agent to see whether it was a good idea to mention it in a query. If not, I'd mention it eventually. But I wouldn't waste time finishing an entire series before getting an agent.

engmajor2005 · Nov 28, 2006

I written one novel and started another. Both have stories that I feel are too big for one book, but I can't guarantee that I'll ever want to write a series. So I don't intend on mentioning the word "series" unless it's preceded by "possible."

Cathy C · Nov 28, 2006

I think it's an agent by agent thing. Several of the agents I've asked have no problems with an author mentioning a series. What they have a problem with is REQUIRING there be a series. By that, I mean that when an author sends a query that describes a plot that must take three books to complete, then there's a requirement that three books must be sold. That might or might not happen. The likelihood that an author can sell three out of the box (Jackie notwithstanding because, well, Jackie's book is AWESOME--having read it already!

) is slim. So, an agent weighs that against another author with ONE book to sell that might become a series and poof! They decide to rep the one book with potential.

Does that make sense?

sassandgroove · Nov 28, 2006

good discussion. Thanks.

I think that the best serial books can also stand alone. you never know what will spark interest in a reader, they may pick up 5 in a series and only read that, and if it isn't able to stand alone, well, they won't finish it. Also, I've picked up later books in a series, and ended up seeking out the earlier books. But if the first book I read wasn't able to stand alone, I probably wouldn't have sought out the others.

Mustangpilot · Nov 28, 2006

Yes. Good discussion.
I'm writing a science fiction series.
Disclaimer: I have completed book one, almost completed book two and have number three roughed out. So far only rejections. No sales.

Each book is a stand alone. However, the results of each book leads to the next. Additionally, book two and three establish their own threads and could be the beginning of their own series.

I did this because the subject interests me and I wanted to make a thorough examination of the idea/subject in novel form. I didn't think I could do it in one book as it would be too big.

Mustangpilot · Nov 28, 2006

From Maprilynne: "But a stand alone beginning with three or four self-contained stories following, yeah, they'll eat that up"

I'm counting on that. (grin)

Silverhand · Nov 28, 2006

You wouldn't believe the amount of times that both agents and publishers have said how great my writing was....but that my first novel was too much of a cliff hanger.

One even asked that I finish the book - to read more as a stand alone - then resubmit. However, by the time that I had finished, the book was 65 pages longer. Unfortunately, it was then to long for a first time author.

I know it has been said several times before, but I will say it again. Write each novel as a stand alone that can move into a series should the agent and publisher wish. If you can pull it off, you get the best of both worlds should they want more.

Euan H. · Nov 28, 2006

dragonjax said:
. . . I purposefully ended it in such a way that it worked as a standalone...or as the start of a series.

As did (if I remember the book correctly), Raymond E. Feist with Magician. Also, if you look at the big never-ending series like the WOT and the SOT, the first books do have complete story arcs, and with not much tweaking would work as stand alones. (The later books, of course, are another story. . . another huge and bloated and jelly-like story.)

Personally, I'm not going to read any more series books--at least, not the type of series that's dominant in fantasy. It was the G.R.R. Martin books that did it for me. I don't want to have to read twenty billion words to find that I have to wait three fricken years to finish the story.

The kind of series that's found in crime fiction, though, that's another story. I'd like to see more of that kind of book, and less of the bloated half million word stories.

johnzakour · Nov 28, 2006

Actually, one of the things that attracted DAW to my books in the first place is that they lend themselves very well to being serialized.

So I don't think it hurts to say, "I have more books in mind for these characters..."

dclary · Nov 28, 2006

I agree with that John -- but the first book has to stand alone, don't you think?

jchines · Nov 28, 2006

I did my first as a standalone. There are always threads and characters that can be picked up in future books if the publisher likes you. I'm working on book three now, but I'm trying to plan each book so that if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, nobody will come to my grave to scream about unfinished stories.

On a more serious note, it's always possible your publisher will drop you after 2 or 3 books if they're not doing well enough. Not if you're Rowling, of course, but for most of us there are no guarantees.

arkady · Nov 29, 2006

johnzakour said:
Actually, one of the things that attracted DAW to my books in the first place is that they lend themselves very well to being serialized.

So I don't think it hurts to say, "I have more books in mind for these characters..."

Did you submit it directly to DAW, or did you get an agent first? I have a suspicion that it makes a difference.

RTH · Nov 29, 2006

If I were an agent, I don't think it would matter to me whether an author mentioned a possible series in a query letter or not. I'd only really be interested in that kind of information when I'd read the partial and requested more material.

So I can't see that mentioning it (or not) would be a deal-killer from the outset???

Tia Nevitt · Nov 30, 2006

Thanks for all the great replies! A lot of you warned me against cliffhangers, and I agree that most of the time, I don't like cliffhangers.

I believe that each book in my series comes to a satisfying ending. At the end of the first book, she defeats a god in single combat and becomes a queen. At the end of the second book, she becomes a goddess. The end of the third book resolves the series. I do not want to make this a twelve-book series.

However, I leave plot threads open between each book. I am trying to work it so that there are no cliffhangers and the end of each book, yet each book looks forward to the next. One overarching tread is not resolved until the third book.

Tia

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