Question for Fantasy Writers

[Tia Nevitt]

I have a question and I wonder what my fellow fantasy writers think.

There seems to be a taboo in mentioning that you are writing a series to agents, as if that would scare them away. However, as a fantasy reader, just about all I read are series. I have read very few standalone fantasies over the past ten years. There may be lots out there, but I'm just not seeing them. The ones I can recall are The Barbed Coil, Talechaser's Song and Green Rider, which actually continues in a sequel or two.

Therefore, I am wondering if the taboo in mentioning series to agents is even relevant to fantasy authors. Several of the agent guidelines that I have seen state that if it is a series, they want to know in the query.

My novel ends with a conclusion. There is a major battle and victory against terrific odds. However, a few plot threads remains open, which I will tie up in the third book.

Should I follow the advice I am getting and hide the fact that I am writing a trilogy? Or should I be forthcoming, since that is how I would want to be treated?

Thanks!
Tia

[JBI]

Depends on the quality of the book to be honest, and if you have been published before. The publisher is taking a big risk; if your stuff is promising, and looks like it will sell they will like a series, if it is a risk, they don't. It's better for you to write the third installment before approaching the publisher. That way they will know what to expect.

[jchines]

I did a panel on series vs. standalones last week, with Eric Flint. He's been with Baen Books for about 9 years, so I did more listening than talking :)

I've got a long write-up on my LJ at http://dsnight.livejournal.com/216527.html

The gist was that for first-time writers, you're probably better off working on standalones. Sell the book, and if the editor likes it, they'll ask you to do more. Readers do love series, like you said.

But while you could write all three books now, if the first one doesn't sell, there's a good chance you've wasted your time on the second and third.

[JDCrayne]

But while you could write all three books now, if the first one doesn't sell, there's a good chance you've wasted your time on the second and third.

I guess you could use Find & Replace to change the character names and locations and sell #2 and #3 as standalones too. Be creative!

[JBI]

Interesting, but I came across an article on prolonged waits for books. The markets now are anxious to buy finished work and not have to wait years for each installment to come. Though it takes a while to write a big fantasy book, publishers are more likely to give your book more thought if they can follow up with another one. I know plenty of readers who won't touch books until the whole series has been written.

I guess of course, there is the loop hole. If you round off all your books but keep some things constant like the setting, you can have the series feeling and marketing, but also maintain a sense of standalonism.

[Mr. Funktastic]

Personally, I enjoy the wait for the next book. I don't like cliffhangers, though. I bought Terry Goodkind's new release in the Sword of Truth series over the summer, Phantom, only for it to not really end. Each book needs to be able to stand on its own, I think. Raymond E. Feist comes to mind for doing well in that regard.

My WIP was originally intended as a standalone, but as I've written, I've come up with ideas for a sequel. I don't intend to start on said sequel until I'm pretty confident in the first novel.

I wouldn't mention that I'm writing a series, but I've never been published.

[Annwyn]

Oooh - that's a problem - I hate books that don't really end - but I find that I actually can't wait to buy the next book when it ends that way. Like recently I read the first in a series that doesn't really end, and I haven't bothered to get the next one - on the other hand, the cliff-hanger book that I read before that, well, I've been searching high and low for the next one. I'm DYING to read it...cliff-hangers have their place, and sometimes they are series because a 2000 page book isn't exactly marketable even for avid readers ;)

As for mentioning that its a sequence, I've heard from agents that sometimes its good to mention it, mostly because it shows the agent that you aren't a one novel show.

[dragonjax]

When I wrote Hell's Belles, I purposefully ended it in such a way that it worked as a standalone...or as the start of a series. My agent liked it as a series kickoff, so I wrote up brief descriptions for the rest of the books in the series (5 for the main series arc, with 3 or 4 one-shot related stories). Kensington bought three books right out of the gate.

[Maprilynne]

Jackie's exactly right. Make it so it can be a stand-alone, but have more if they want it. As for mentioning that, I think you should wait until you have an interested agent or publisher. And, like Mr. Funktastic mentioned, you want some kind of resolution at the end of every book, even if the readers know another is coming. (I've heard a lot of complains about Terry Goodkind for that very reason.)
For example, take Harry Potter. It is part of a series, and you know you need to see more to get the whole story, but each individual book has a complete pot arc that resolves at the end of the book. That way you get some satisfaction.
Publishers like serieses (is that a word?:)) because they can use a lot of the same publicity, they don't have to start on a new fan base, the general guidlines are already laid out, etc. What they don't like is a new author who really needs ten books to tell a single story for exactly the same reason they don't want a 300,000 page book. It's just too much. But a stand alone beginning with three or four self-contained stories following, yeah, they'll eat that up.

Maprilynne

[HorrorWriter]

Tia,
There is nothing wrong with mentioning a possible series for your novel. My manuscript, which is currently out on submission, can be a standalone, but it is actually the first in my series. I agree with Jackie, end as if it were a standalone, just in case no one wants a series from it. Literary agent Ginger Clark asks that you include whether or not you have a series in your query letter. I included it in mine and she and a few other agents have requested partials so far. So it cannot hurt. They all likes the premise. Just write well and don't sweat the small stuff!;)

[Tallymark]

The tricky bit is there's more than one kind of series, really (and all the fuzzy areas inbetween). There's series with one continuous adventure, like David Eddings' The Belgariad, where in each book the current task at hand is accomplished at the end, but the overall adventure continues where the previous book left off. Then there's series like Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern, where the books are all in the same setting, and may sometimes involve the same characters, but for the most part are standalone stories. You can read every book to get the overall history of the people of Pern, but in each book the story is done.

The latter kind is probably the safest for a new author to do...but admittedly, I think my current work is going to end up like the former. XD

[jamiehall]

I've been confused on this issue too. Mainly because I've seen both types of advice from professionals. Some say that the idea that a series is in the works will entice agents (agents want authors who keep producing, and a series can make more money - if the books in the series can be sold in the first place) while others say that this very same idea will scare away an agent.

I expect that, like most things which experts give contradictory advice about, both things are actually true: a series can easily scare or entice an agent, depending on personal taste and a lot of other factors.

I'd probably research each individual agent to see whether it was a good idea to mention it in a query. If not, I'd mention it eventually. But I wouldn't waste time finishing an entire series before getting an agent.

[engmajor2005]

I written one novel and started another. Both have stories that I feel are too big for one book, but I can't guarantee that I'll ever want to write a series. So I don't intend on mentioning the word "series" unless it's preceded by "possible."

[Cathy C]

I think it's an agent by agent thing. Several of the agents I've asked have no problems with an author mentioning a series. What they have a problem with is REQUIRING there be a series. By that, I mean that when an author sends a query that describes a plot that must take three books to complete, then there's a requirement that three books must be sold. That might or might not happen. The likelihood that an author can sell three out of the box (Jackie notwithstanding because, well, Jackie's book is AWESOME--having read it already! ;) ) is slim. So, an agent weighs that against another author with ONE book to sell that might become a series and poof! They decide to rep the one book with potential.

Does that make sense?

[sassandgroove]

good discussion. Thanks.

I think that the best serial books can also stand alone. you never know what will spark interest in a reader, they may pick up 5 in a series and only read that, and if it isn't able to stand alone, well, they won't finish it. Also, I've picked up later books in a series, and ended up seeking out the earlier books. But if the first book I read wasn't able to stand alone, I probably wouldn't have sought out the others.

[Mustangpilot]

Yes. Good discussion.
I'm writing a science fiction series.
Disclaimer: I have completed book one, almost completed book two and have number three roughed out. So far only rejections. No sales.

Each book is a stand alone. However, the results of each book leads to the next. Additionally, book two and three establish their own threads and could be the beginning of their own series.

I did this because the subject interests me and I wanted to make a thorough examination of the idea/subject in novel form. I didn't think I could do it in one book as it would be too big.

[Mustangpilot]

From Maprilynne: "But a stand alone beginning with three or four self-contained stories following, yeah, they'll eat that up"

I'm counting on that. (grin)

[Silverhand]

You wouldn't believe the amount of times that both agents and publishers have said how great my writing was....but that my first novel was too much of a cliff hanger.

One even asked that I finish the book - to read more as a stand alone - then resubmit. However, by the time that I had finished, the book was 65 pages longer. Unfortunately, it was then to long for a first time author. :(

I know it has been said several times before, but I will say it again. Write each novel as a stand alone that can move into a series should the agent and publisher wish. If you can pull it off, you get the best of both worlds should they want more.

[Euan H.]

. . . I purposefully ended it in such a way that it worked as a standalone...or as the start of a series.
As did (if I remember the book correctly), Raymond E. Feist with Magician. Also, if you look at the big never-ending series like the WOT and the SOT, the first books do have complete story arcs, and with not much tweaking would work as stand alones. (The later books, of course, are another story. . . another huge and bloated and jelly-like story.)

Personally, I'm not going to read any more series books--at least, not the type of series that's dominant in fantasy. It was the G.R.R. Martin books that did it for me. I don't want to have to read twenty billion words to find that I have to wait three fricken years to finish the story.

The kind of series that's found in crime fiction, though, that's another story. I'd like to see more of that kind of book, and less of the bloated half million word stories.

[johnzakour]

Actually, one of the things that attracted DAW to my books in the first place is that they lend themselves very well to being serialized.

So I don't think it hurts to say, "I have more books in mind for these characters..."

[dclary]

I agree with that John -- but the first book has to stand alone, don't you think?

[jchines]

I did my first as a standalone. There are always threads and characters that can be picked up in future books if the publisher likes you. I'm working on book three now, but I'm trying to plan each book so that if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, nobody will come to my grave to scream about unfinished stories.

On a more serious note, it's always possible your publisher will drop you after 2 or 3 books if they're not doing well enough. Not if you're Rowling, of course, but for most of us there are no guarantees.

[arkady]

Actually, one of the things that attracted DAW to my books in the first place is that they lend themselves very well to being serialized.

So I don't think it hurts to say, "I have more books in mind for these characters..."

Did you submit it directly to DAW, or did you get an agent first? I have a suspicion that it makes a difference.

[RTH]

If I were an agent, I don't think it would matter to me whether an author mentioned a possible series in a query letter or not. I'd only really be interested in that kind of information when I'd read the partial and requested more material.

So I can't see that mentioning it (or not) would be a deal-killer from the outset???

[Tia Nevitt]

Thanks for all the great replies! A lot of you warned me against cliffhangers, and I agree that most of the time, I don't like cliffhangers.

I believe that each book in my series comes to a satisfying ending. At the end of the first book, she defeats a god in single combat and becomes a queen. At the end of the second book, she becomes a goddess. The end of the third book resolves the series. I do not want to make this a twelve-book series.

However, I leave plot threads open between each book. I am trying to work it so that there are no cliffhangers and the end of each book, yet each book looks forward to the next. One overarching tread is not resolved until the third book.

Tia

[Mustangpilot]

"Unfortunately, it was then to long for a first time author. "

What is the best length for a first time author? My first is 130,000 words.
Mustangpilot

[ChaosTitan]

"Unfortunately, it was then to long for a first time author. "

What is the best length for a first time author? My first is 130,000 words.
Mustangpilot

Hi Mustangpilot,

The average length of any novel is between 85-100k. It's a huge gap when you think about it. Novels over the 100k range cost more to produce, so publishers are risking more money on an unknown quantity (you). They'll often do it for authors with a track record, but rarely for an unknown.

The reason you hear about encyclopedia-sized debut novels is because they are so rare. New novelists debut every single week, but few receive the same kind of attention as, say, The Emperor of Ocean Park or The Historian. They were huge and they were well-marketed.

Yes, a 130k novel by a new author can be bought, but the odds are already stacked against you by being unpublished. Having a novel outside of the standard word count just makes it more difficult.

[Mustangpilot]

Chaostitan.
Thanks.
I'll look at my work and see what I can cut out.

Thanks

[jpsorrow]

My experience was that for a first time author, the publishers want the first book to stand alone. It should have a plot arc that is completely contained in and of itself. It can have an obvious continuation, but the ending must wrap up in a satisfactory way. When you attempt to get an agent or an editor, you must be UP FRONT AT ALL TIMES about what you are submitting. Never tell them it's a standalone when in fact it is not. If the ending of the first novel is not satisfactory and complete in and of itself, you must tell the agent or editor at the beginning that, while the book might be well-rounded, the main plot continues into 2 or 3 or whatever follow-up books.

If the book is a standalone but can obviously be continued, and if an agent or editor is interested in it, then they will ask whether you have any sequels planned if they are interested in buying more than one book. If they only want one book, they won't ask.

If there are sequels planned, then you need to have plot synopses of these sequels ready to submit. You do not need to have the sequels written. I second JCHines's comment that writing sequels can be an extreme waste of time, since there's no guarantee that the first book will ever sell. I highly suggest NOT writing the sequels until you're fairly certain the first book is sold.

My personal experience: I wrote Skewed Throne as a standalone. By the end of the book, another idea that would work great with the character in this book popped up, unexpectedly. But I submitted ST as a standalone. DAW was interested. An agent was interested. I sicced the agent on DAW and sold ST. While we were negotiating the contract for ST, DAW asked if I had any sequels planned so I sent in the idea for books 2 and 3 and DAW altered their offer and bought all 3 books. I have a feeling this is fairly standard procedure for first authors (they get interested in a standalone, ask about sequels, then buy a series). This is based on talking with other authors and finding out their "first sale" stories.

This is not to say that you can't sell a series that doesn't have a standalone first book. It's been done. But as someone else said, it's much, much harder. If you do have a series where the first book cannot stand alone, you MUST mention this to the agent or editor as early as possible.

Remember, this is a business. You need to be professional at all times.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

::waves at JPSorrow because I haven't updated my LJ in a while::

I agree with the theory most people are following. My first novel (which I'm still waiting to hear back about) is a complete story. I have about 8-10K of a possible sequel written just so that I have a bit of a feel for it, and a rough idea for a third novel.

I also have a completely unrelated novel (SF instead of Fantasy) which is in the revision stage, and my next novel will also be a standalone. I have ideas for sequels, but I'm not going to write them yet.

As a complete aside-- read Skewed Throne, it's good.

[WildScribe]

I agree with what has been said about the first book (and all the books really) being standalone. My favorite example is Anne McCaffey.

[LilaDubois]

The best advice I ever got was to write the book as if you would never get to write the next one. I think this isn't realistically true, but the sentiment, that you want to put your all into each book, is good.

[Atlantis]

My current novel is a stand alone that can be turned into the first of a series if successful. This allows agents the ability to take me on and give me a chance without going through the hassel of locking me into a contract for a series that might not work. A single novel is an easier sell then a series. I am, however, working on a seven book seperate series that ties into the first book on the side, I mention this in my letter. It tells the agent that I am not a one-book-wonder and have a serious desire to have a long fruitful career. So, in short, if you are writing a series and have not been published before, make sure your first book can survive on its own then the rest of your series might have a chance of seeing publication. Of course, on the flip side, you could also pull a Harry Potter. JK Rowling was a newbie and she got a seven book series contract. It can happen. Depends on your query and the quality of your writing.

[Toothpaste]

Look at it a bit like the Pirates of the Caribbean series. The first movie was just one movie. It was complete, no cliffhanger. Done and done. Now the producers saw what a success it had been and I am sure had a contingency plan should it had proved as successful as it has. In the film industry, why create something new, when you can go back to the tried and tested? So they decided to make 2 other films. The second Pirates movie is not really a complete story, there are several huge cliffhangers. But that's okay because now they knew they had an audience who would come back to see number 3. Even look at Harry Potter, while yes each book has a self contained plot arc, they get more and more reliant on each other as the series progresses.

But you've been told that a million times already. I just really wanted to write about pirates. And now I have. Thank you!

[Mustangpilot]

Thanks for the advice. I have the first book completed. Sadly, I was overly optomistic and over confident in my "genius" and sent it out too early. It was rejected. I was disappointed but after rereading it I was not surprised. I spent the next three months rewriting and correcting a lot of missteps. I also changed the ending. Since discovering that novels over 100K words are less likely to sell I have been reading it again to see what I can cut out and still make it work.

Humility is a good thing.

I was up front in my intent to make it a series. However, I did not specifically mention that each book would stand alone. I have now included that fact in my presentation based on the advice given here.

I have it out to another agent now, Catt LeBaique, and did state I was doing a three book series where the plot and characters would lend itself to even more.

Book two is finished in the rough but needs a lot of editing. I have book three outlined so I know where I want to go.

One thing that has happened since I started this project is that I keep getting ideas that have nothing to do with it. I have written one short-short story and two short stories in the last six months. (grin) Haven't tried to sell them. Maybe next year some time. I'd like to post the short-short in this forum. Is this permitted and, if so, where should I do that.

Thanks for all the help.
Mustang pilot

[rugcat]

I'd like to post the short-short in this forum. Is this permitted and, if so, where should I do that.

There's a Share Your Work section on the forum boards. Go to the main Water Cooler page and you'll see it.

[Mustangpilot]

Arkady:
I'm also currious to know if you submitted your series directly to Daw or through an agent?
Thanks
Mustangpilot

[Teraphim]

But while you could write all three books now, if the first one doesn't sell, there's a good chance you've wasted your time on the second and third.

Business is business, but art is art. Standalones are good business, but sometimes art demands a cycle.

In the beginning, I say tell the truth.

If a business person decides that you must turn your three or four or five book cycle into a standalone, you'll have plenty of material out of which to pick your best.

[Dave.C.Robinson]

Don't close doors in front of you, only behind you.

A standalone that can be continued is the best option to start with. Then write something different. Among other things that will help you grow more as a writer by forcing you to stretch in new directions.

[Monty]

I totally agree with this statement but what do you do when you have written your first draft and are rereading it and adding and deleting stuff and you find that you need more material and details to come up with a better background for the story. The last advice I got when I posted my story way back was to tell the readers more about the Main character Ian Von Roth so I did this the problem is there is still to many battle parts of the book. Also I read alot of Terry Brooks novels this guy to me is the master of series writting in the fanasty world so I try to model my books in my own style while following the successful rules he spells out in his non fiction book Sometimes the magic works. This book describes his career up and downs. So if even a great master like him has trouble with the rewritting stage of writting the book what do I do when I find I am dumb founded for ideas to add to the story.

I thought about a flying charot race but I don't wish to be excused of copying are borrowing from Harry Potter. How to do this without copying her J.K. Rowlings model while designing my own is the real question here.

Help please monty.


Don't close doors in front of you, only behind you.

A standalone that can be continued is the best option to start with. Then write something different. Among other things that will help you grow more as a writer by forcing you to stretch in new directions.