Common beginner mistakes

[scripter1]

Okay, we've all read lots of pages on the boards, many of us have reviewed scripts for PGL and other contests or spent time on zoetrope. Several have been professional readers and work in the industry.

Other then BIG problems such as bland story, poor structure, glaring errors, or bad format what are the most common beginner mistakes?

What little things add up to make you put a script down?

{This thread is intended to HELP make writers aware of these problems so they can avoid them, and thus improve their writing. NO PERSONAL SLAMMING ALLOWED.}

1) Twisting reality to make the story work. If a character is shown doing "bad" things you can't expect us to pretend he/she is good. If the story is set in real life you must obey the rules of this Earth. We will suspend our disbelief only so much. I read three chapters of a novel once then stopped when the hero got his horse to walk across a rope bridge. Yeah right.

2) Losing continuity in the story. Read pages a while back where a guy was in a ring surrounded by hundreds of screaming people. Suddenly he looks around, he's all alone, and so he makes a run for the door only to be grabbed by a bouncer and tossed back in the ring. Huh?

3) Thinking scenes. Sam sits and thinks for several minutes.
Several minutes is three pages!

4)My personal pet peeve? Unintentional alliteration. Small smiles, big boys, tender touches, mushy moments, etc.
They just stick in my mind and take me out of the moment.

[mammamaia]

in addition to what you've mentioned, here's my list, in pretty much this ranking order [yours coming after]:

1. novel-ish writing excess, instead of concise, clear, screenwriting style in the action element... this is the most common newbie 'sin' i come across in the hundreds/thousands of scripts i'm sent...

2. poor formatting... yes, it does make a difference!... if you want your work to be taken seriously, it needs to look as professional as possible... i won't even read far enough to see whether the story/plot is great or not, if the script is sloppy and/or amateurish-looking...

3. poor grammar/spelling/punctuation... no agent or producer is going to go to the trouble of correcting a writer's basic skills goofs... if someone wants to be a professional writer, imo, they must hone their skills to a professional level before trying to sell or enter their work...

this is, of course, just my own personal take on things... in addition to these and scripter's pet peeves, one thing i come across all too often, that i find hard to deal with is many new writers' conviction that their first, one-and-only screenplay will have some chance to be sold...

i'm accused of negativism by some, for pointing out that it takes years to get good enough at this craft/art to write marketable scripts and that the myth of a writer's first script being sold is just that.. a myth... most don't want to accept the fact that a lot of work and learning and studying and writing go into success in this industry... they seem to think that just anyone can write a screenplay... if that were true, they'd sell for pennies, and not thousands/hundreds of thousands/millions of dollars!

love and hugs, maia

[JustinoIV]

"this is, of course, just my own personal take on things... in addition to these and scripter's pet peeves, one thing i come across all too often, that i find hard to deal with is many new writers' conviction that their first, one-and-only screenplay will have some chance to be sold... "

Often, the first screenplay or manuscript written by a screenwriter or novelist is really about the writer. It can be hard for some people to admit that their personal stories may not be interesting enough to make mass sales. These writers are usually convinced that they have the greatest master piece of all time. That's why Ed Hansen, Carlo Padula, and all the other con artists posing a producers can take then in.

Basically, once you finish your first project and get it read and critiqued, it's simply best to move on and write your next screenplay. New writers shouldn't spend undue time correcting first script or two, because the story premise itself may be flawed, not viable.

[JustinoIV]

This is not a fault of the writing, but it is still a mistake. A newbie convinced that they can attract top talent to their script, like their favorite actor or director when all they have written is a script or two that hasn't been produced.

[mammamaia]

...and needs to be said, sad to say...

[NOTE to our glorious board leader: imo, this would be a good thread to keep thumbtacked, or whatever it is you mods do to keep things up on top... it would be handy then, to direct newbies to when they're looking for basic advice... will save us a lot of repetition, doncha think?]

love and hugs, maia

[FoxFire]

Done! Any other thread ideas for the top??

FoxFire

[xtz]

SPENDING TOO MUCH TIME THINKING ABOUT WRITING AND NOT DOING IT (aren't I just doing that now). That's got to be no 1.

Sending my script out too early - before it was as good as I could get it.

Thinking my script was the most fantastic 100 pages ever written and anyone who didn't want it was either blinkered... or more probably stealing my ideas.

Thinking that cause no-one wanted it that they were saying it had NO MERIT AT ALL. (& even if they were....)

Oh, yeah, and thinking you only have to write one.

Still I didn't do the only 'fatal' thing... I didn't give up...

[mammamaia]

buck up, x... you're far from alone!

your closing is the most important 'don't' of all... kudos to you!

love and hugs, maia

[scripter1]

Explaining or trying to justify why an action has been performed.

Ruben hits Jessie across the back with a two by four. Jesse falls to the ground groaning because he's been hit so hard by the board.

Writing fancy. Using big and unusual words instead of keeping things simple and clear. You don't want the reader to have to use the dictionary.

Using a characters full name every time they appear. Intro them with the full name and then choose either the first or last name to identify them in dialog and then stick with that name.

[dchapma123]

How about explaining what a character is thinking?

"Jesse starts to open the door, but stops because he remembers how his mother told him to always knock first."

I think many of the biggest beginner mistakes revolve around not grasping the whole "visual medium" thing.

[maestrowork]

Even with visual thing... you have to take care not writing something that sounds like it'd call for special effects (unless, of course, you are writing a SFX script).

[mammamaia]

hey, jimmy!... it's good to see you 'out' again... glad to hear you're well into the development stage, but i'm sorry to hear you got stuck with an idiot for a director...

too true, 'bout that perfume thing!... i'll hafta add, 'writing stuff that isn't SEEN or HEARD' as one of the most common and annoying newbie goofs...

when it gets too much like this :headbang , try some primal scream therapy... just go out on your balcony or into the closet and scream as loud as you can, till it feels better... it really works... and saves lives!!! [yours and the director's]

:heart and hugs, maia

[JustinoIV]

"Huh? Perfume isn't even mentioned before or after the scene...SO HOW DO WE KNOW IT'S PERFUME???

I've pointed this out to the director but he just doesn't get it. This is just one of many "wonderful additions" the director has made to the script. I'll tell ya, it's enough to drive you crazy. But hey, that's Showbiz!"

Well, be happy that your script is sold. And any writer who gets produced will need to accept that is work is going to be substantially changed.

The writer is many ways, of all the behind scenes people, is the least powerful.

As for what this director is doing, let him do it. What matters is that he makes a good film.

[MrJayVee]

Points I'm fully aware of, believe me. After several years in the screenwriting game, I figured I'd seen pretty much everything. But this current director is really throwing me for a loop with all his rewrite ideas. And hey, as aggravating as it is, I'm thankful just to have sold the script...and having the very real possibility that it'll get produced this year.

Always remember: A bad day as a screenwriter is still better than a great day as an insurance salesman. (My apologies to all you insurance salesmen out there.)

[scripter1]

Giving famous people unintentional cameos.

A large storage building filled with shelves. Motley crew unloads wooden crates from the trucks.

Just read that one today!!

Oh me oh my. :rofl

Okay, one more
Writing "magic" characters and vehicles that suddenly appear or disappear from nowhere and to nowhere.
{does not apply if your story is actually ABOUT magic.}
They must come from somewhere and go somewhere. :rofl

[Optimus Maximus]

Rather than copying and pasting all of your posts from another thread and passing them off as genuine responses to this one, scripter1, why didn't you just post the link to the original Done Deal thread?

b3.ezboard.com/fdonedealfrm21.showMessage?topicID=3586.topic (http://b3.ezboard.com/fdonedealfrm21.showMessage?topicID=3586.topic)

Would've been a lot easier, IMO.

*Shrug*

[dpaterso]

Different groups have different opinions. They tend to be less offensive and less prone to stalking on this board.

-Derek
-----------------------DOUBLE OR QUITS (http://www.sintrigue.org/detective/fiction/04.html) appearing in Issue 5 (April-June 2004) of SDO Detective (http://www.sintrigue.org/detective)

[Optimus Maximus]

I just meant to start the thread off.

[dchapma123]

1. Message speeches

If you want to send a message with your script ("Drugs are bad"; "Don't let yourself be bullied"; etc.), send the message through actions. A big, messy message speech, on the other hand, turns your script into a sermon. The merits of movies as teaching tools can be debated, but it's better to show what you want us to learn than to tell us.

2. "Brilliant" dialogue.

At best, this is gratuitous dialogue that draws attention to itself, taking the audience completely out of the story. At worst (and most frequently) it's dialogue that's SUPPOSED to be clever, but really is just painful to read.

If the dialogue you write is making you laugh, it's probably bad (especially if you're not writing a comedy), because usually the humor comes in the voice of the WRITER, rather than the CHARACTER. There's always a sacrifice to be made in this case. You should sacrifice brilliance for character; not character for brilliance.

3. On the nose dialogue

People rarely say what they mean, and characters should be no different. This kind of dialogue stands in the way of your script's believability.

MARY
I love you, John. I wish you hadn't left me last year. It was the hardest year of my life. I don't think I'll ever be the same.

JOHN
I know, Mary. I didn't want to leave, but I didn't like the person I was becoming. I think if I'd have stayed, you wouldn't have liked me much either. I needed to take that year and figure out what I want out of life. And now I know the answer: I want you.

MARY
I want you too!

Give me a break! Nobody talks like this! I know it's hard to believe, but if do your work on the rest of the script, this will suffice:

MARY
So...you're back?

JOHN
Yeah. I am.

MARY
You should hang up your coat.

If you've established the situation, the actors and director can handle the subtext.


You have to develop an ear for dialogue, so beginners shouldn't be frustrated if their characters don't sound natural right out of the chute. My advice is to worry about these problems when you're REVISING your script, not while you're composing the first draft. And remember:

What your characters SAY is not nearly as important as what they DO.

Dave...

[maestrowork]

Oh I hate those big secret reveals:

BAD GUY
Now that I've got you captured, I suppose I can tell you the whole thing before you die. You see, I killed your father and your mother and your brother and I raped your wife and your children and blamed it all on you. blah blah blah... now you know, you can die.

GOOD GUY
Not so fast.

Pow, Pow.

[Jamesaritchie]

Bad dialogue is the killer. Good dialogue is what sells a script. Unlike Dave, I think what characters say and how they say it is at least as important as what they do.

You have to have both, but it's poor dialogue that kills most writers.

[dchapma123]

You're right about bad dialogue. But I think if you've figured out what they do, it's easier to write what they say.

[toto1958]

I'm not a writer of any kind. But I do know when to concentrate on something and when not too regarding creativety.

If you concentrate on something it too long it will cause you'r mind to bog down and even stop in the creative juices of any project you are doing. It's like a light bulb, if you leave that light bulb on tool long it will burn out. The human mind is not suppose to function with it concentrating on something too much. Writers block can happen because of going at something to much. The mind is saying to you that your going at this too much, stop, back off.

The whole key to being creative is to have variety. To never allow your mind to concentrate on something too long or too short.If it's too long then it will burn out, if it's too short you forget key things and minute things which are crucial. You'll wind up losing either way.

The backbone to the key of being creative has to do with a process called "turn on/shut down". This means that no matter what you're working on, you have to walk away from it and get your mind to completely and absolutely forget everything and anything that you've been working on. Not just absolutely forget what you're working on but to forget for a period of time.

The reason why the mind must absolutely and completely forget what you're working on and for a period of time is because the mind is going through a process that you're absolutely unaware of. What it's doing is digesting and analyzing everything that you have done. You can't feel or tell that this is going on because its doing this on the subconscious level.This process that the mind goes through of digesting and analyzing what you have done is actually the back bone of being creative, with out it you can't be creative.

When you eat food, you're body has to be able to digest the food. When you're being creative, which is the equivalent of eating food, your mind has to be able to digest it just like your body has to digest the food that you just ate. you're mind actually does this naturally every time your not thinking of something and aren't thinking of, irrelevant to what it is. Its not just restricted to creativity.

When the mind is digesting what ever its digesting that you have created and don't have your mind on or any thought on, at the same time its analyzing it. When you eat food and you're body is digesting it,its also at the same time analyzing it. What kind of food, are there any poisons that came with the food,how heavy is the food Your body can digest and analyze your food with out you having a thought about it. But with creativity you have to get your mind off of what your creating so that your mind can digest and analyze it.

When your mind is analyzing what your creating, it will do one of three things. It will either 1) find something wrong 2) add creativity to what your doing, such as a "good idea" 3) both number 1 & 2. When you come back to being creative one of those three things will be waiting for you in your mind when you go back to concentrate on being creative. If any of those three things are'nt there then your mind has'nt digested it or has'nt completely digested it.

The amount of time to allow your mind to digest anything your creating is variant. Some times it takes a long time or a short time, some times it does it instantly but this is rare. Its just like when you eat food. If you eat certain kinds of food it will take your system a long time to digest it, with other foods its real quick. It depends on what your eating. The same holds true with being creative, it depends on what your doing. The more complex something is the longer it's going to take for the mind to digest it and Analise it.

The human mind is not a machine where it is suppose to pump out one good thing after another. This is total fantasy and absolutely impossible. There is actually a process the mind must go through in order to be creative. If you violate this process it can create writers block and creativity block.

When creating, irrelevant to whether its screenwriting, painting, or any other form of creativity the human mind must go through this process.

As far as being a screenwriter its actually best to have 3 or 4 screen plays one's creating at one time. Thus causing the screenwriters to go from one screen play to another. This will help prevent the screen writer to get bogged down in any one script. When I work on abstract paintings I do, I always work on 3 or 4 paintings at a time. I never ever concentrate on just one painting. Even masters who are the elite of the painting world have at least 2 paintings at any one time they are working on. you'll never see an artist working on just one thing, it will never happen.


When ever a screenwriter is working on 3 to 4 screen plays not just do they need to get their mind off of what they are doing with anyone script but must also get their mind off of screen writing all together. They must many times totally forget everything about screen writing and everything they are doing in screen writing.

The whole key of creativity revolves around what one is concentrating, how long they are concentrating on anything, how deeply they are concentrating on any one thing and how long the absolutely forget what ever they were doing

good luck (wink)

[JustinoIV]

"As far as being a screenwriter its actually best to have 3 or 4 screen plays one's creating at one time."

I completely disagree. It's not good to have a bunch of screenplays all in varying degrees of completion. If working like that is good for you, fine, but it doesn't get anywhere for me.

When a writer starts with his first script, the best thing to do is finish it. In order to polish it up, you do need to take a break from that script. SHortly after finishing your first script, you should start working on your second. At so one. After you have a bunch of scripts, you'll probably spend time going back on all of them editing and rewriting. But just to have 4 screenplays whose first drafts are in varying stages of completion is horrific advice.

Also, not all screenplays are written on spec. Many in fact are written under hire. In these cases, the director or producer is going to want to see your work by a certain time without any excuses. Even after you sell a spec, you typically have to do one rewrite, and again, you'll need to send it in without excuses.

[toto1958]

I wasn't meaning under "hire" situations. Sorry

I wrote a book thats 280 pages long and it took me ten years to write it. I worked on all the chapters in the book the way i wrote above. May be theres something about screenwriting that I'm not aware of. It wasn't horrifying to me but then again wasn't working wit screenplays

Oh well

[JustinoIV]

Screenwriters typically churn out two or three complete screenplays a year. No one spends 10 years on a screenplay.

a 90 to 120 page screenplay involves much less novel. The screenplay can be divided into three acts, or scenes through the movie.

The scene starts with a scene heading. (ex. EXT. PARK-Day) It also contains the description of the scenes, what's in it, including characters. then there's the action and dialog). You do not get into what the characters are thinking, and there is far less description than there would be in a novel. It's a big insult if people in film say that a screenplay reads like a novel.

[toto1958]

I'm not going to argue , dispute or what ever you want to call it with you. I don't want to be on the outs with you, I don't even know you.

The whole point of what I' trying to project is a process that the mind must go through to be creative and stay creative. I spent ten years writing that book, working on several chapters at one time as time went by. Over all that time i had awakened to that process. When ever you work on any kind of writing for that long , your going to awaken to things other than just what your writing about.

Forget that it wasn't a screen play or it was a screen play. Thats not important. Whats important is keeping the mind create and to do what needs to be done to keep the mind creative. Irrelevant to what kind of writing it is , writers block equals death to a writers career.

I don't know anything about screen writing. I would figure it be far more screenplays to dish out per year than what you said. To me I thought it was far easier to write a screen play than the kind of book I wrote.

Just simply change what i said about writing 3 or 4 screenplays at a time and simply replace them with something to do to get your min doff of writing and what your writing ( a hobby, a walk in the park, etc). The main point I'm bring across is to give your self a break and never push your self.

I'm trying to help people from doing anything with their creativity that could hurt , damage or even destroy their career. I don't want this to get entangled in what kind of writing you do and miss the process to keep your mind creative.

If you understand the heart of what I was saying then you'll see that its something crucially important im bringing across.
I think you understand what I'm saying from a different view.

I believe that at this point instead of it being you saying "my view is right" and me saying "my view is right". I think we need to look specifically at "What is the best amount of time to work and to rest from that work for each writer". I believe that the work and rest process while writing you presented is a process that you do. I believe that it would be interesting to see if someone else would come along and present a different method of working and resting when writing.

This is definitely very interesting and has caused me to broaden my thinking as far as working and resting when writing.

I would be interested in knowing the different ways people get their mind off of their writing.

[dchapma123]

I don't really think Justino was trying to argue with you; just explain how writing screenplays is different from novel writing.

I agree with him that it's not a great idea to try to write several scripts at once. While you do sometimes have to take some time off from your writing in order to come back later and see it fresh, it's very, very hard to keep the scripts from getting jumbled in your head if you don't focus on one or maybe two at a time.

Screenwriting is usually a pretty streamlined process that demands efficiency. While you can sometimes get good results through a kind of free assocation more typical to prose, it's kind of rare. I'm not sure I understand what kind of "creativity" you're advocating--and certainly people should do whatever helps them--but I certainly don't think a "common mistake" screenwriters make is to focus on only one script at a time.

Thank you for your input though.

[toto1958]

Creativity is what ever your creating in your writing, a story. Removing this , adding this, putting this in, reflecting on what ever it is. All those thing are the processes of creativity. when Shakespeare was creating Romeo and Juliet, he was being creative.

[scripter1]

Remaining hooked on certain things that don't work and being stuck on how to solve it is an extremely common mistake. For many new writers typing it in is almost like writing it in stone, or blood. It's not, if it doesn't work then take a deep breath and CUT CUT CUT, or revise.

Many call it writers block, when the idea's stop coming and usually it happens when a problem scene or story moment must be solved and there is no obvious answer to it. Some things are easy to figure out, other moments or twists present much more serious challenges.
And keep in mind that in writing your first idea is not always the best idea.

Toto, you are correct. When the brain locks up and you are frustrated, take a break. Step away from the project and do something that requires little thought, or at least has nothing to do with writing. Mow the lawn, go for a jog, whatever.
Let the mind move on to other things and you'll find that once you let go the need to control and force the thought that the solution will soon present itself.

If you really enjoy sleeping it will do it at 1:00 in the morning. :lol

[Jamesaritchie]

Selling a first screenplay is rare, but it isn't a myth, any more than selling a first novel is a myth. Both happen, and both happen pretty much once or twice a year.

If it takes a person years and years to learn how to do something well, that person is probably in the wrong business.

[toto1958]

Thats the second time I've been told I'm correct for two different things.

When a person gets writers block, they do have to completely get their mind off of what their doing.

But..............this part you may disagree with.

It has to be something thats heavier than writing. Not a detrimental kind of heavier, but heavier.What needs to occur is the mind must be so absorbed into something else that nothing of writing and anything to do with writing exists. That in its self can enact as a therapy to the mind and allow the mind to digest what went on with and in the writing. If this process goes long enough then the mind will completely digest every thing.

But in actuality, ones mind must go from one thing to another that is not involved in writing.It can take up to several things that one needs to keep ons mind on to keep ones mind off of writing. The sources t do this are numerous.

If your mind is on something that is not heavy enough then thoughts about writing and anything to do with writing will be found coming back. Im sure every one has experienced this, where they go involved in something and then walked away with it and went and did something lighter and found that thoughts of what they were doing before slipping back in their mind. This is the minds way of telling you that your not doing something heavy enough to forget what you were doing. Heavy enough means absorption in what your doing. If the absorption is heavy enough then there wont be room for any thoughts of what you were doing.

You have to be tuned into your own mind. With what things cause you to forget about writing? with what things do you remember writing? The only thing you do after that is observe your mind. As You go through time you begin to awaken to things that allow yoiu to get your mind off of your writing and what things dont get your mind off of writing. As time goes by youll begin to grow a list of things that get your mind off of writing. But you have to observe your mind. Getting your mind off of things isn't a guessing thing.

[SimonSays]

One of the biggest mistakes beginners make is relying on boards like this one to get reliable correct information on technical and formatting issues and most importantly on what producers are and are not looking for.

Almost all the posters are aspiring writers. With no real world (or unreal world, afterall we are talking about Hollywood) experience.

Over and over again I have seen posts that say you can't do this or you have to do that, often untrue. Over and over again I have seen emphatic, yet totally incorrect formatting information.

For techincal questions, go to your nearest bookstore fork over the 20 bucks and buy a good book on formatting and structure. When you have a formatting question, consult your book. If you can afford it and there's one in your area, take a screenwriting class.

Then go home and write a good script. Then rewrite it. Then rewrite again. And for good measure, rewrite it again.

As William Goldman said: No one in Hollywood knows anything.

But they know more there then many of the well-intentioned people on these boards.

[researchib]

Hi, haven't been posted in a long long while. I thought I'd toss my two cents in here about common mistakes. As a screenwriter and coverage writer, I can tell you what will make me (not speaking for others here) put a script down fast.

Passive characters, passive storyline. Plain and simple. When events happen to your main character over and over again, forcing a change. Such stories drive me crazy. Does the character have a personality, a life, any ability to make decisions or take control? No amount of great dialogue, fantastic special effects or precise structuring will fix this problem. If ya tie your character's hands behind her back for the whole story, the story will end up in someone's trashcan.

The ones most guilty of this travesty of denying human action/reaction are those who write scripts (and books) with young characters. Somehow, being young means children/teens can't think or act; they are merely victims of the world's evil descending on them.

Every time I read one of these scripts, I hope that the character will do something, anything, other than allow circumstances to kick him this way and that until he's battered into changing. 99% of the time, I'm disappointed.

Passivity is the bane of good screenplays. Don't let it happen to you!

Ok, I may feel too passionately about this. I know, but I just can't bear it anymore!

BT

[scripter1]

My experience and that of others is that the boards can be a great place to come for advice. If newbies would take a few days to read the posts they would quickly gain some idea of who knows what and see the consistencies in posts.

There are quite a few knowledgeable and experienced writers and studio people on these boards.

There are also quite a few writers who mis-advise. Someone will always come along to correct them.

Also everyone should keep in mind that quite a bit of screenwriting is personal style. What "rules" one person makes for themselves do not and should not apply to every script.

[scripter1]

I know it's an older post but I wanted to respond.

I find that brainless stuff helps me unlock writers block. Something that is not writing but allows my mind to just wander around thinking. Even if I'm thinking about writing I'm still not under the pressure to punch the keys because I've got a lawn to mow, or dishes to wash, laundry to fold, a certain distance to jog.
My mind can relax and percolate on the problem. Usually after a bit the idea's start flowing and I'm back in front of the computer happily typing.

Then my husband comes home and says " Hon, why is the lawn only half mowed?"

Okay, back to the main point of this thread.
Common beginner mistakes.
(sorry, don't have any new ones at this point but I'm sure I will in a little while.)

[SimonSays]

It is not always easy to tell who is or is not reliable. There is also no guarantee that any of those truly "in the know" will post on any given thread or that someone looking for particular information will read all the posts once they find an answer (right or wrong) to their question.

Certain people, like Mamamaia seem to post on every thread, always emphatic, often wrong.

Ivy seems to give the correct information all the time, but again, she does not post on every thread. And even when she does, Maia ignores her information and repeats the incorrect information over and over again.

I KNOW that Ivy's right, because I'm a working writer in Hollywood and have practical experience. But that's just me.

I stand by my statement that the information on these boards is often unreliable and people are far better off consulting verifiable, professional sources.

[scripter1]

Do us all a favor then and respond when you can to erroneous posts to help clear up some of the misunderstandings.
I know they happen and if people in the industry will speak up kindly and intelligently we'll all be better off.

Slamming the message boards doesn't do any one any good.
They can be a great source for inspiration and guidance.
This site here is one of the cleaner, nicer, more patient and kinder sites and seems to be home to less experienced people and new writers. There are several very knowledgeable people who participate.

ScriptSecrets is a great site run by Bill Martell who is a professional writer and he is very active on the boards. There are quite a few industry pros over there who respond with regularity.
Then there is donedeal with a lot of pros and industry insiders who are far more then happy to correct the least degree of error. If you want some nitty gritty discussions about the rights and wrongs of screenwriting then spend some time over there. There is a huge thread on Real Rules v Fake Rules.

Of course, it is the Internet and we ALL could be 12 year-olds!
;) :rollin

By the way, was there a specific piece of advice or information that you found fault with?
Asking in all seriousness.

[mammamaia]

if you are a working writer in hollywood, then you are not in synch with all such, since a fellow mentor who's a full-time working screenwriter agrees with what i post... and so does a major exec at one of the big 3 agencies [to whom i send work of promising mentees], as well as many others who know the business...

and i don't slam you or ivy personally, when i see that you're giving out totally wrong info, so why not act like a grown up and stop trying to make these boards a pissing contest, huh?... i'm willing to bet i've been doing what i'm doing for longer than you've been alive, and i do for free now what i used to be paid up to $150/hr for, back when that was a lot of money...

and i've been doing it on this forum [on most of its boards, not just screenwriting] for years... so, if you and ivy can't take a bit of competetion, at least cut out all this derogatory scheiss and leave these boards for what they're intended... to HELP each other, not to prove who's got the biggest wingwang...

m

[SimonSays]

I've come across a lot of incorrect info here. I've responded when I've seen it. But in some cases I have been shouted down by others.

One that comes to mind is the issue of v.o. verses o.s. and which one to use where.

I've also seen a lot of "You can't do this or you can't do that"

Like you should never use narration, etc. While the fact is, if it SERVES your story and it's done well, it will not turn off an agent or producer. I've got a script out right now with voice over narration, and have been getting positive feedback and interest.

Or I've seen over and over Maia saying "you should NEVER use camera angles. EVER".

And the fact is, in certain situations, when you want or need a close up of a particular thing. It's okay to use:

CLOSE UP:

Bill's HAND holding a GUN.

Using the CLOSE UP actually tells your reader that this is a BIG IMPORTANT THING they should pay attention to. And it is the most succint and efficient way to cue that.

Or I've also seen people say "YOU SHOULD NEVER USE PARENTHETICALS IT'S THE SIGN OF A NOVCE". Again, not necessarily. You don't want to overuse them. But sometimes they are necessary.

Example:

Bill opens his hand, a quarter lies in his palm. He closes his hand, then opens it again. His palm is empty.

BECKY
Wow! That's amazing.

BILL
F- you!

Bill's reaction in this example does not make sense. He did a magic trick, Becky praised it, he's upset.

The reader is confused by his reaction.

Now try it again with a wryly:

Bill opens his hand, a quarter lies in his palm. He closes his hand, then opens it again. His palm is empty.

BECKY
(sarcastically)
Wow! That's amazing.

BILL
F- you!

With the wryly it is clear she's making fun of him, hence his reaction makes sense.

These things are not black and white it's about serving your story and making things clear for your reader. Those are the two most important things.

I've also seen people say things like "don't be specific and say TIMES SQUARE - NIGHT because it's expensive to shoot in Times Square at night.

This is not your concern as a writer. Your concern is telling your story, the best way you can. Unless you know before you write something that there are going to be budgetary restrictions, (which if you are writing a spec script you wouldn't know, unless you are planning to produce it yourself) you should never focus on budget. You should write what you want and set it where you want it. If a producer wants to do the project but can't afford the locations they'll cheat Vancouver for NY or set the thing in Des Moines.

These kind of things are important because in some cases, if not done right they will confuse the reader and in other cases, they will handcuff you and your ability to tell your story.

My first script had a couple of camera angles, the occasional wryly and was set in a number of locations that would be very expensive to shoot in and I still got an agent, an option deal and meetings all over town. Why? Because I told a good story. I wrote it well. I had strong characters a good plot and good pacing.

Not one person, not even the directors I met with said "you shouldn't have those camera angles in there." They said "we love your script."

You are correct when you say that this board appears to be a home for less experienced and new writers. And I think these boards are fine for more subjective types of feedback. But when it comes to objective information (formatting, etc.) or what is or is not acceptable in Hollywood, there are far too many uninformed voices on this site.

There are far better resources out there for that type of information, and I thought it was my responsibility to point that out.

[maestrowork]

Simon, what's your credential then? You seem kind of full of it, to be honest with you. Not to mention condescending.


p.s. Leave the close up angles to the director. They may be inserted in the "shooting" script later.

[SimonSays]

i'm a working writer. Sold a couple specs, do a lot of script doctoring.

Don't mean to be condescending. Don't even want to give advice, really, just trying to keep people from relying on bad advice.

[maestrowork]

Some rules are for reference only. They are not absolutes. The thing is, you need to know these guidelines/rules before you can break them. I think a lot of advice here is sound for novice. Once you're seasoned and have written enough scripts, you can break them. I'm sure Charlie Kauffman doesn't follow some of these rules (read his "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, for example). But he's Charlie Kauffman.

While I agree that we shouldn't "NEVER" do anything, it is true there we should try to avoid doing something like writing unfilmable proses such as "Jack could smell the delicious apple pie in the next room" or the "acrid stench seeps through the vents." Or camera angles -- many directors HATE that. Many prefer to shoot a scene multiple times, with different angles (long, medium, close-ups, etc.) and if they see something like "CLOSE UP of hand," they'd ignore it anyway. Or make sure you know the difference between O.S. and V.O., etc.

If you write and direct your own films, you can do whatever you want, of course.

And don't assume that everyone is just an "aspiring" writer. Many of us have sold works.

[Gene123]

My pet peeve is writers who don't know English. I don't mean in scripts that are about uneducated people where it's OK to use slang and bad grammar. That's natural for the character. But in scripts with educated characters, such as lawyers, doctors, etc., I constantly see the wrong use of words. And it's not only in scripts, I see this in newspaper reporting all the time, particularly by AP reporters. Just recently, I read an article in an e-mail newsletter article by Tom McCurrie in which he reviewed a movie. Big blunder. Also, in an e-mail newsletter from American Screenwriters Association, a first place winner in a screenwriting contest made a big blunder in her log line. Don't schools teach English any more? I see these blunders in movies and TV shows all the time. Makes me want to scream.

I've reviewed scripts on Zoetrope and as a member of a state screenwriters club, and usually end up with up to nine pages of blunders. I guess those are the scripts that get made into movies, though, from what I see on TV and the big screen. Pity.:shrug

[FlickTick]

Here is a list of things to avoid while you write your screenplay:

www.mm.com/user/mnsww/images/peeves.pdf

FLickTick

[dchapma123]

I think maestrowork makes a good point about "the rules". Since many (if not most) of the questions on this forum are from novice writers, it's a good idea to steer them away from things like camera angles and parentheticals--not because it's absolutely wrong to use them, but because it's better to learn how to get along without them. Newbies often rely heavily on this kind of stuff.

I'm helping to judge a screenplay competition. The writer of one script had broken down the entire thing into angles. Every page had four or five camera directions, and NONE of them were remotely illuminating. That's a writer that needs to be told, "DO NOT USE CAMERA DIRECTIONS".

The most important things for any script is that it be engrossing and easy to follow. If your method of "adapting" the formatting conventions gets in the way of someone being able to smoothly read the script, then you're in trouble. If it makes the script easy to read, you've made a good decision.

"Does the industry want me to use O.S. or V.O. here?" Who the heck cares?

Maybe this forum would be better served to be split into two separate boards--one for people just starting out and one for writers who've been at it for awhile. Short of that, I think everyone has to recognize that they shouldn't take anything they read here as the gospel truth.

[Ivylilly]

I haven't even looked at this thread, hence belated response. But, really, Maia, if you have a problem with me, talk to me... Don't go to some thread. What can't I take? Who did I offend? When I post here I merely offer advise because that's what I needed when I started in this business. If it is not needed, or if it makes you feel insecure, I will bow out and let you be the King of the Hill. Whatever. I don't care. Really. But talking about me behind my back is kind of "junior high", no?

[mammamaia]

huh???... i've no idea what you're so hot under the collar about, ivy... here's the last thing i posted, way back on the 21st... and i only referred to you in it [see where, below] because you and simon have both questioned some things i've posted in a very personally derogatory way [which i don't do to you], in the voice thread, for one...

here:
and i don't slam you or ivy personally, when i see that you're giving out totally wrong info...

and here:
... so, if you and ivy can't take a bit of competition, at least cut out all this derogatory scheiss and leave these boards for what they're intended... to HELP each other, not to prove who's got the biggest wingwang...

...and, since you frequent these boards and i posted it right out in the open, i don't see how it can be called talking about you behind your back... but complaining like you just did, about my merely referring to what you'd posted is kind of kindergartenish, no?...

...i've been posting and helping folks on this forum for a very long time... i don't feel the least bit insecure and don't mind your posting here at all... it's a free and open forum... i don't need to be king or queen of anything, but if you do, go right ahead and crown yourself... i won't bow down before ya, but i'll be glad if it makes you happy...

...i, for one, will now ignore all this personal nonsense and just go on helping any here who need it... i've always got too many requests for help and mentoring on my email 'plate' to waste any more work time with this kind of stuff...

...truce?:hug ...

m

[coleslaststand]

In my opinion, character development cannot be overemphasized. Its importance is so great that you should always be developing characters, even when you are not working on a story. Because it’s the character who will be telling your story, so make him, her or it interesting.
Keep your mind full of new and interesting characters, and as an added bonus, every so often, a character will open up a fantastic story idea.
Characters drive our stories and without them, the story will undoubtedly not be told as well as it should. It is the depth and detail of our characters that enraptures and injects an audience into the spine of our story because in the end it is usually not our story but rather our characters that they are rooting for.


:snoopy

[scryptreader]

Best thing you can do for yourself? Write a terrific first page...

theinsdier@scryptreader.com

[scripter1]

:smack

Ugh, boy this thread has seriously lost it's track since I've been gone.

Can we please stop bickering and just help out new writers?

Thank you.

[FJ and G]

So, after 3 pages of reading this, what can we learn?

As a new writer, I have learned from these 3 pages that:

There's more than one way to skin a cat.

Pardon the cliche

Also, pardons to any animal rights advocates

[Boobsie Malone]

Pet Peeve: People who say "Well, he's Shane Black." "Well, he's Charlie Kaufman." "Well, he's Alan Ball."

In other words, people advise: "Don't do this, this and this." To which other people respond, "But Shane Black does it!" To which the original people reply: "Well, he's Shane Black."

He wasn't always Shane Black... Well, yeah, okay he was. But, he wasn't always a produced writer. He didn't wake up one day and say "Hey, now that I got that nifty paycheck, I'm going to shake it up! Heck, I'm going to break me some 'rules.'"

Nope. He wrote as he does now. Quirky asides, describing things that cannot be [necessarily] seen. It's an effective, emotive way of writing, and it totally works for him. It may not work for you, so, find your own style. Break the 'rules'. Don't quell that emerging voice because you're not established as a writer. Use that voice to breakthrough as a writer.

Oh, I'm digging Simon. I'll probably do what he says.

[A Pathetic Writer]

Oh, I'm digging Simon. I'll probably do what he says.

Like that's a shock. :|

[writerscut]

Not too much was contributed to this board, does it really need to be a sticky thread?

[ThomasDF]

I goofed and posted in the wrong place. never mind.

[ThomasDF]

Hey writerscut, screenwriting is like being in a candy factory, if things don't get sticky you're not making good candy. :party

Thomas

[kojled]

scripter1

most common mistake is, when the time comes, not being able to discern whether they have any talent. pursuit of a hobby is fine but being a wannabe screenwriter is just sad. fess up and proceed accordingly

next most common mistake is not doing the work needed to succeed, then blaming the system for shutting you out


zilla

[scripter1]

A most common mistake when you're a beginner at anything is quiting when the going gets tough or a few people give you grief.

If you LOVE writing, if you like screenwriting, keep at it. Eventually YOUR story, the story that belongs to you, that is inside you, that GREAT story, will come out.
And hopefully if you are doing your homework and honing your skills you will have developed the skills to write it.

If you're a hobbyist, then you'll be able to write that masterpiece and feel really good about yourself.
No harm in that.


Again I am going to make the plea that this thread be kept to it's original intention, unveiling screenwriting mistakes in order to help other writers look for them and thus improve their scripts.

[urbanscreenwriter]

I have been writing seriously for 6 years or so, and I have written 2 novels, a short story collection and a 8 scripts--everything is in the urban genre, including the Sci-Fi script that I am currently trying to finish up.

I query agent after agent, and all of them say that they have a full slate that and that although your premise sounds interesting good luck bullshit. You know what I mean, I am trying my best to go about things the traditional way--knowing that it's the way to get the most out of your work. I don't have the time and patients for self publishing and I am too broke to produce,and @#%$ it , I am no director--not yet.

Insight from you guys, how can I get into this Business?

As of late I have been sending synopsis and scripts to urban directors. That @#%$ is expensive 6 dollars per script is killing me. Lol.

Thanks

ZCR

[SimonSays]

Urban -

The deal with agents is that they are flooded with quereies and spec scipts, most of which suck. Everyone thinks they can write because we learn how to write essays about what we did on our summer vacation in 2nd grade. But writing screenplays and novels is different and only a small minority have the talent to do do it well. Very few can write good, commercially viable scripts. There's so much bad crap out there that many screenplay agents will only consider stuff that is referred to them by someone they know.

If you are sending queries to agencies who accept screenplays without a referral and are receiving boilerplate rejections of the query, then you might want to take a look at your query. Does the query itself have the 'urban feel' of your scripts? Do you give the flavor of your projects or do you just say "'Homey' is about a kid with hip hop dreams"? You also might want to specifically target agents that represent artists that do the kind of stuff you write. You can contact the WGA and DGA to find out who represents specific writers and directors.

The best way to get anywhere in this business is through networking. It really is who you know in this town. If you don't know anyone and are not in this town, that makes it much more difficult. But you still might have connections,and no matter how tenuous they are, you need to leverage them. So if your co-worker's cousin is Mos Def's dentist - try to get to your script to Mos that way. The worst that happen is your co-worker or the dentist or Mos wil say no, the best that will happen is that you'll get Mos to read your script.

There is an entire cottage industry of places to post your script or logline on the web. Some are legitimate (inktip.com, zoetrope.com triggerstreet.com hollywoodlitsales.com) others are not. Most charge fees. I have no idea what the success rate is on these kind of sites.

There are also events in LA and other cities where you can pitch your script to producers, managers, agents, etc. It's kinda like speed dating, you get 5 minutes to pitch your projects, and then your're on to the next. They are not cheap (a couple hundred bucks). But it is a chance to get your stuff out there and make connections. I know a couple of producers who have participated. They've actually ended up reading some of the scripts that were pitched to them, although most of the scripts ended up being crap.

There is no magic formula. This is a tough business. Far more fail than succeed.

[urbanscreenwriter]

Hey whats up. Im new to the board. I think simon know what he sez. Close ups are an integral part of any script. I have written a plenty and you need close ups or inserts to accentuate a certain prop or emotion displayed by a character.

Ink

[scripter1]

Urban, you might want to try checking your queries and scripts for basic grammatical errors.
I'm sorry, but if you write like you post, I'd pass on your scripts as well.

I don't mean any offense, please don't overreact.
Probably THE # ONE biggest beginner mistake is not turning a critical eye on yourself and thus the script.
If you don't take the time to write a grammatically clean post then you won't take the time to write a clean script. And if you are sloppy with grammar then you will be sloppy with bigger things like story elements, etc.
One thing always overflows into the other.

SO, I suggest you set your work aside for a week. Go fishing, what ever. Then come back to the scripts and pretend you are an editor. HUNT DOWN and destroy mistakes. Pay yourself a dime or a dollar for every one you find. Then set the script aside again. Come back to it in a week. Work on story, characters, plot, theme, conflict.
After a while you'll see the pages improve.

THEN get some feedback. I'm assuming you haven't gotten any real feedback. Post some pages at Done Deal, or on the share your work forum here, go to zoetrope or triggerstreet.
This might give you an idea of where your pages stand.

You have two possibilities here.
1)You aren't ready to submit yet.
2)You're targeting the wrong people and just haven't gotten lucky yet.

95% chance it's the first one.

[SimonSays]

Acutally Urban, I didn't say they were an integral part of any script. I said people who said you should NEVER use them were wrong. I use them when I need to, then again, I've written some scripts that don't have any at all.

[JustinoIV]

" Urban, you might want to try checking your queries and scripts for basic grammatical errors.
I'm sorry, but if you write like you post, I'd pass on your scripts as well."

Scripter 1, I've worked as a script reader at production companies in New York.

A script reader would be FIRED if he rejected a script solely on grammatical errors.

A script reader is required to read the entire script, write a synopsis of the story, and then write whether or not we would recommend or reject the story. Then we assess the writing itself, whether or not we would recommend pass on the writing.

I'm speaking as someone who has experience in the film scene, and who has gotten offers that came my way.

Should you avoid grammatical and spelling errors? Of course. But in the end, the most important thing is that you have a good story to sell! Nitpickying over errors is utterly useless.

I was told by all of the development execs that I worked for that if a script with a good story, but not the best grammer came to the prodco, that if it they were interested in the story they would buy it and have the screenwriter and/or other screenwriters rewrite it.

Screenwriting is not taking English classes, where you try to wow your professors with impeccable grammer.

Just because you'd pass on his scripts does not mean that everyone will. I think your comments are unacceptably rude.

[JustinoIV]

Urban, I think I said this in another post. People who intern at prodcos and agencies, or who work in the film or publishing business are able to put their scripts ahead of yours because they know the producers or agents.

Well, querying did get me my first work for hire assignment, and has gotten me script requests, a lot of my script readers came due to the fact that I worked for various people.

So you may seriously want to consider going that extra mile and getting a film industry job or internship in either LA or NYC.

All of those urban directors and producers are always looking for interns, and ditto for other categories/genres.

[TonyRob]

(This message was left blank)

[JustinoIV]

The most common beginner mistake is paying certain negative people any attention. LOL

Seriously, are any of the people here really qualified to say what beginner's mistakes are? I'm not aware of anyone here who has completed a masters or a phd in playwriting or screenwriting.

I've written 8 screenplays (one of which is a work for hire), had a couple of offers come to me, been a script reader, and I'm still not an authority on screenwriting.

A lot of getting works or deals is putting your scripts in the hands of the right people at the right time. The experts will always be able to find problems with your work. These people take the term critic to heart, and will be excessively critical or negative about ANYTHING.

I'm not sure any newcomer would learn anything from this thread, because while people are just listing their pet peeves, I find them incredibly vague.

Perhaps people can change the trust of their comments and show beginners or give them info that they can find of use? Keep in mind scripts you find dull or scenes you may find dull may turn out to be smash hits.

[TonyRob]

I'm not aware of anyone here who has completed a masters or a phd in playwriting or screenwriting.

Actually, there is at least one (semi-regular) who has a masters in screenwriting from USC. I was a screenwriting undergrad there, so I guess that doesn't quite cut it.

At any rate, I'm sorry if my post came across as too negative. Absolutewrite (the board in general) won't have to worry about that anymore as I won't be posting here again.

[scripter1]

I never said a script had to be grammatically perfect OR that a reader would pass on it for that reason.
What I said is that if you are careless in one area you are likely to be careless in another.

This may not be Urban's problem but then again it could be. His scripts could be fundamentally flawed and he needs to consider that.
Then again, he may just not be targeting the right people for his story.

No way for any of us to tell unless we read his script.
THEN, again, it may be something that doesn't appeal to us.

SOO, Urban, the bottom line is too keep working at it. See what kind of feedback you can get back and then rework the scripts or create new ones and see what happens.

I think there have been some good things pointed out in this thread. I'll read back over it and highlight them again. Then maybe we can discuss their significance.

[scripter1]

In my very humble opinion.

1) Twisting reality to make the story work. If a character is shown doing "bad" things you can't expect us to pretend he/she is good. If the story is set in real life you must obey the rules of this Earth. We will suspend our disbelief only so much. I read three chapters of a novel once then stopped when the hero got his horse to walk across a rope bridge. Yeah right."
[ NOT ANTI-HERO! I'm talking about behavior that makes you hate the character but the script insists they are the good guy and you are supposed to sympathize with them.
Example to the extreme,- Man beats his wife up then pets a dog. Petting the dog is supposed to SHOW that he's a nice guy. BUT HE JUST SMACKED HIS WIFE??? WHAT, HUH? How can we like him.
Characters do need to be well rounded and extremes do exist but it is the writers job to create the balance and the reason to them. A whole series of deplorable actions can not be excused by another character saying 'You're a good person."

"2) Losing continuity in the story. Read pages a while back where a guy was in a ring surrounded by hundreds of screaming people. Suddenly he looks around, he's all alone, and so he makes a run for the door only to be grabbed by a bouncer and tossed back in the ring. Huh? Where'd all the people go?"
[I've come across this quite a bit. Characters get ignored, items people were holding get forgotten, injuries sustained are ignored, etc. Sometimes we get so busy writing along that we simply forget these things. Often it is a little thing and just means filling in some details. Sometimes, as in the example above, it can be crucial to the action and the scenes will need to be completely rethought.]

3) Thinking scenes. Sam sits and thinks for several minutes.
Several minutes is three pages! A minute is a long time. It's even longer on film.
[People do think, however, watching it on screen is very boring. Solve this problem by creating interesting actions that show character. Give the person something to DO while thinking so the camera has something to film.]

[scripter1]

" novel-ish writing excess, instead of concise, clear, screenwriting style in the action element -" maia

Often referred to as too much black.
Large blocks of description and detailed action. Also lots of flowery, big words.
Keep things simple. Give us what we need to know and then move on.

" SPENDING TOO MUCH TIME THINKING ABOUT WRITING AND NOT DOING IT (aren't I just doing that now). That's got to be no 1.
Sending my script out too early - before it was as good as I could get it.
Thinking my script was the most fantastic 100 pages ever written and anyone who didn't want it was either blinkered... or more probably stealing my ideas.
Thinking that cause no-one wanted it that they were saying it had NO MERIT AT ALL. (& even if they were....)
Oh, yeah, and thinking you only have to write one.
Still I didn't do the only 'fatal' thing... I didn't give up..." xtz

I think, I hope that many newbies to the board have found the thread helpful.
If you have, it would be nice to hear from you.
Tell us what you found interesting and how you applied it.

[JustinoIV]

"SOO, Urban, the bottom line is too keep working at it. See what kind of feedback you can get back and then rework the scripts or create new ones and see what happens."

Wonderful advice.

[dchapma123]

"I'm not aware of anyone here who has completed a masters or a phd in playwriting or screenwriting."

I have a masters degree in film with a focus on directing and screenwriting.

[joecalabre]

I have a Masters in Film also. I use it to line my kitchen cabinets.

[dchapma123]

So perhaps one common beginner mistake is to get a masters degree in Film. I'd certainly be less poor today if I hadn't.

[Chapter11]

In yes my experience, big mistake for novice writer of screen is listen too Me. For many year I receive call from writer saying, "What you do in Act 3 for big payout." My response is please do not call me any more Mr. McKee. My work is to BUSY. I have no time for you to help with twisty end. I have Masters in Screen Write Methodectomy from Ziglar International School of Online Instructions, but please do not take the advice of me people. The school it is not good. All your baseless criticism are belong to us.

[teresa20]

that's not what I'm worried about
what do think people go to school for writing:smack
duh.
I have my own mistakes to worry and those are not them
I rather try to make my characters like real people
and why worry so much:shrug :shrug
I'm not a screenwriter yet and neither are you!

[Hamboogul]

Why is there a sticky on this thread?

To me, the "common beginner mistakes" noted by "experts" are really "here's what I know I don't do now" by beginners.

I say someone contact Jenna and have her unsticky this. Because some advice dispensed on this thread are embarrassingly off target.

[SimonSays]

Well said Ham. Maybe if someone besides me points that out people will actually listen.

[scripter1]

Wait a minute guys.

Why are you so eager to deny beginner writers a chance to find and fix their work right from the start?
Aren't you the least bit annoyed by seeing the exact same mistakes over and over again? Don't you ever shake your head as you read pages and go "Did you even read this before you posted it? How can you miss stuff like this?"

One of the reasons message boards are effective and do so well is all of us get to learn from each other.
If we don't post our experiences both good and bad, and all the lessons learned, we'll never be able to help anyone else out.

And I for one don't mind helping people because I've benefited quite a bit from others.

Some of the things posted in here might seem petty but at least they encourage writers to take a hard look at their script. And some of them are script sinkers. New writers are told over and over and over to FIX their scripts.
How the hell are they supposed to know what TO fix, where to start, if someone doesn't give them something specific????!!!!!!! You can get so involved in writing, just flying along, that you have no clue what you've actually wrote. If you can go back and look for some things, knowing in your mind SOMETHING to look FOR, then suddenly your mistakes come out of the woodwork.

I'm just trying to give writers a place to start.
I can't help them all with my feedback service, I'm only one woman with limited experience and time, but at least I try to return the favors and kindness shown to me.

I'm fairly confident that if Jenna didn't find some value in the thread it would either be locked or un-stickied.

[JustinoIV]

Scripter, I've seen your posts. Some of them, particularly at the beginning, do accurately mention some of the flaws that beginner writers will make.

They'll continue to make them until they get instruction from a class, a mentor, or a situation where they learn on the job/internship.

I don't think this thread should be moved at all. Different people here have had widely different experiences, and newcomers may find different points of view useful. Also, it's up to newcomers to do their own research through books or through contacting industry professionals to find out what is the case.

I do think you had good intentions, Scripter1, in trying to get beginners on a right foot. Where they go, and who they listen to is up to them.

[scripter1]

Well thank you Justin.

It's just that some are saying the thread isn't worthwhile and should be allowed to die.
I think it's been and will continue to be a valuable thread and I sincerely hope that many new writers have found it helpful.

Screenwriting is hard enough without having to go it alone.
There are books and people should take the time to study and learn. Sure, there is something to be said for struggling a little, figuring things out on your own.
BUT
If there are kind people on the boards that are willing to offer free help, tips, and feedback, why should someone be denied that?

Some would say that people who cannot figure out their script's problems on their own have no business writing.
I disagree.
Many people have a talent that only needs a nudge or two in the right direction. Some people want something so badly that they will work year after year to achieve it.
These people should not be denied an opportunity for growth and learning.
And I think this thread plays some small role in helping them out.

[SimonSays]

Scripter - I don't think there's anything wrong with helping people. The problem is that many of those helping are actually hurting because the information that they give is wrong.

This is not like the Learn to Write with Uncle Jim thread on the novel board - on that thread beginners can ask any question about novel writing that they want - the difference is that James McDonald is the one answering the question. Jim's a successful and knowledgable author. He knows the business of publishing and he knows the craft of writing.

On this thread and these boards the right info is mixed in the wrong info and there is no way to tell the difference. The threads on things like "do you write from your head or your heart" and "how do you deal with writer's block" are great. They give writer's a chance to socialize and share. It's the threads on the technical areas of writing that can lead writer's into bad habits and bad writing. The threads about how the industry works are flooded with equally dangerous and erroneous information.

Screenwriting is a craft and you cannot just buy a copy of Final Draft, ask a couple questions about formatting on these boards and know how to write a screenplay.

Screenwriting is about more than formatting a script correctly - at it's heart it is storytelling - and you need to know about story structure, beats, the inciting incident character development - the difference between a desire and a need, conflict, climax, etc.

I know many people don't have the money or the time - but if they are serious about wanting to be a screenwriter - they have to find the money to take a class or buy some books and make the time to take the class and/or read the books.

It is clear from a lot of the questions - that people are coming to these boards with absolutely no knowledge about screenwriting or storytelling. If they had taken one class or read one book on screenwriting they would not need to ask half of these questions.

And worse still, half the feedback is from people who never bothered to learn the craft either. I've seen people post sample scenes where the descriptions include what the characters are thinking, how they are feeling and what happened offscreen. And 10 people reply that the description block is too long, and finally one person will point out that what they have written is NOT screenplay description. The other 9 didn't even know there was anything wrong with it.

People on this thread say things like bad dialogue is a common beginner mistake - Absolutely True - but the key is what makes dialogue good dialogue - and that is where education comes in.

I've also seen such horrendous and offbase information on how the industry works, and how to go about getting an agent, that it's truly frightening. People saying agents won't represent new writers, etc. Totally false. But people read it and because they don't know any better they believe it.

I advocate education - and out off all the resources out there to educate oneself - I believe that boards like this are the least reliable.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[scripter1]

Not taking the time to:

learn about the craft.
polish, rewrite, edit.
understand the medium or the industry.

Yeah, we do see the exact same questions over and over and over again, to which the vast majority of us scream at our computers " GO READ A BOOK!!!"

New writers, Understand this.
Writing it both an art and a craft. It combines natural talent with learned and practiced skills to create a final product. Screenwriting has it's own set of rules and takes things to a whole other level.

You can't just slap a bunch of words down on paper and wait for the money to roll in.
Yet, quite a few people believe this is the way it works.

There are many skills and tools to master, all the things Simon mentioned. It takes time. It takes experimenting. It takes rewriting. If you want the big bucks put in the time.

NOW, THAT is what sorts people out. Those who are serious about screenwriting will do the reading and eventually will figure out the right advice from the wrong advice.

[JustinoIV]

Books can also offer contradictory advice on screenwriting, and a book (depending on who wrote it, when it was written, etc), can also put a writer on the wrong direction.

Still, it's ultimately up the screenwriter to figure out what is good and bad.

Look at Paul Argentini's book on screenwriting. I read that book, and formatted my first screenplay using his samples. His Samples would look like this.

EXT. JOHN'S HOUSE-DAY

INT. JOHN'S LIVING ROOM-DAY

John sits on the couch, reading a book. He gets up and speaks to his wife, DONNA.

JOHN
Hey Donna.

(forgive me, I don't know how to center on here)

Notice Argentini has no action and dialogue in his ext scenes. All of his ext scenes were like that in his BOOK on screenwriting.

His samples though, were awful samples and that got me off to a poor start. But I read scripts for samples, I read other books, had a mentor, and a work for hire gig, learned the correct formatting and put my scripts in order. They're good now.:)

As for overall structure and character development, every book I've come across suggests that you read scripts and watch movies critically for that. It's not a magic formula. If you carefully watch movies and read scripts you'll get it( in addition to the other sources of education you have)

[SimonSays]

Touche Scripter, I think we are on the same page.

As for contradictory advice in books on mechanics - we all know that having a slugline for a location establishing shot without a description underneath may be wrong - but it is not going to make or break your chances of selling your script. As for which book to choose, I'd do a little research on the one's that are written by noted authorities - because chances are more people in the industry are familiar with their take on these things.

I also recommend reading lots of scripts - but doing so only shows you HOW things are done, you need to understand WHAT is being done. You could read every piece of classic literature ever written, but if you don't understand WHAT symbolism is and what purpose it serves, you may not put it in your novel. Things like that work for the reader on a subconcious level.

Same goes for creating conflict, character development, structuring a story, etc. You need to understand the what's and the why's. And no matter how many scripts you read - you probably will not understand the what's and the why's. Which is why you need to learn these things from classes or books.

Different writing 'gurus' have different stragetegies for developing character's and plots. But the differences are about what path you take. They use alternate routes - but they all take you to to the same destination. A tightly structured, well written story filled with conflict and characters that grow and change. Which one will click with a given individual has more to do with their own creative process, then anything else. It's not necessarily about which is right or better.

[dchapma123]

So we can all agree that one of the biggest mistakes "beginners" make is to believe they don't have anything left to learn about screenwriting.

I'm sure it's depressing for newbies to see post after post that reads, "Take classes! Read books!" but why should it be? You wouldn't start building a car without all the knowledge you could get (and having seen a car before wouldn't nearly enough). It's not that you're idea is bad or that no one "gets" you; it's that you just don't know what the heck you're doing.

So yeah, I agree -- anyone that thinks they're going to learn how to write screenplays from reading and posting on this (or any) forum is woefully naive. It's not a knock against the people that read or post here; it's just the truth. If the internet is anything more than a supplement to your development as a writer, you'll never get anywhere.

[joecalabre]

Even doctors, surgeons, laywers and other specialised proffesionals read journals and take refresher courses well after graduating from school. Things change. Ten years ago you could put CUT TO: after every scene. You got to keep up or move aside.

To think you know it all is a lesson in defeat.

[Hamboogul]

To use the analogy...

The problem is that on these boards, if you watch ER, you think you can operate a brain. And people have no qualms about giving their opinion of brain surgery even when they never set foot in a hospital.

I still say that this thread deserves no special attention over the other threads.

[dpaterso]

I still say that this thread deserves no special attention over the other threads.
I think good intentions count for something, tho' it's turned out like every other thread on every other message board -- you have to wade through oceans of mud to find the occasional diamond.

-Derek
-----------------------My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[scripter1]

Well, maybe we could go through the thread and pull out the diamonds. Then all the extra comments can be deleted.

[joecalabre]

I say we delete the topic all together. It gets covered in other topics throughout.

[scripter1]

NO!!!!!!!! :smack

It's stickied permanently at the top so that newbies can find it right off and not have to GO HUNTING through hundreds of threads.
It's supposed to be a collection of experiences and advice all in one spot.

I'm all for whittling it down to a list the majority of us can agree on and taking out all the junk talk and blathering
BUT I think the intent and worthwhile content should remain.