Subjectivity and its results

I think the logic here is a little weak--along the line of 1) dogs have four legs, 2) Felix has four legs 3) therefore Felix is a dog.

The logic is weak.

Editors and agents are subjective in the same way that readers are. Everyone's tastes are somewhat different, but the good books should always (well, mostly) rise to the top.

Plenty of product is moving, though.

I think it can often seem that way when we're frustrated. My agent thinks my novel is brilliant, but so far, has been unable to find a publisher willing to take a chance on it. The manuscript has garnered awards and fellowships, has received a blurb from a national bestselling author, and still, no takers.

Do I get bitter and frustrated when I hear about celebrities (O.J. Simpson's recent book, for example) getting three-figure deals when someone like myself (who I know has a worthwhile product) can't get a break? You bet your bottom dollar I do! But when you get right down to it, it's just business sense. They know the public is going to shell out the money because they are familiar with the names and the stories. If you had a choice between something that's a surefire million, and something that may or may not sell a single copy, which would you choose? The fact is, the public does eat up what they are putting out. But it doesn't mean the system is so inherently flawed that a new writer stands no chance at all. Had anyone ever heard of Dan Brown before The DaVinci Code? I hadn't. Or Charles Frazier, who broke through with Cold Mountain a few years back? It isn't impossible for first-time authors to break through, but it does take a lot of persistence and many people believing in you (and willing to fight for you). And having a good story, of course.

I'm not giving up. I'm already working on an alternate edit for my novel. In the meantime, I have another novel ready to go and a third I'm already outlining. The system is frustrating, but I don't think impossible. You just have to keep doing what you do until you have a product, an agent and an editor that click. It takes time and effort, but I think is worth it in the end--especially if you DO wish to see your book in B&N.

Actually, your original argument was a common logical fallacy. I believe it's known as 'false cause' (A Rulebook for Arguments by Anthony Weston -- good book, btw, I highly recommend it) or it could be a non-sequiter. And saying you're right because you're know a lot about business is another, I just can't find the term for it.

Gimme another. This is fun.

This may sounds cruel, but it seems to me that you only think the system is broken because you haven't been able to sell *your* book to agents/publishers.

I've had stuff rejected too, but instead of the thinking the system is broken, I just think I have to write better fiction. And writing more fiction takes my mind off stressing about rejection.

No, I don't know your book. It may be very good. But if you're getting a number of rejections that suggests you may need to reassess it.

What makes you think that you know the types of books being published and the other people here don't?

OK then, in your previous post, what does "I know the kinds of books being published" have to do with anything?

I don't think the books currently being published are inferior.

I_Shrugged said:

Actually, your original argument was a common logical fallacy. I believe it's known as 'false cause' (A Rulebook for Arguments by Anthony Weston -- good book, btw, I highly recommend it) or it could be a non-sequiter. And saying you're right because you're know a lot about business is another, I just can't find the term for it.

Gimme another. This is fun.

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Thankyou, that was the point I was trying to make. Whether or not a conclusion is correct, the logic is false.

p.s. it isn't 'my system'--I'm in about the same situation as you. I just tend to focus on the part of the problem I have control over. My writing, who I send it to, and how. Good books in my genre are being published, ergo if I have written a good book I should be able to get it published.

on_the_verge said:

Also, note that nobody is sitting at a computer to read a 400 page novel.]

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I have done exactly that, actually a 535 page novel that I paid good money for. It is not safe to make 'always' and 'never' statements in a diverse industry like publishing.

But that is beside the point. You seem very sure that you are right and we are wrong. That's your prerogative, but the only person getting close to being insulting here is you, verge. Mind the gap

Okay, Verge, time to step back and chill a little. We're all in this game together. And by all, I mean you, the posters responding to you, writers who do not frequent this board, agents, editors, and publishers.

The fact is, your argument did not examine all the possible causes for declining sales. For instance,could the economy, individuals having less cash to spend on pleasure, have something to do with it?

... I have, in fact, read plenty of recently published books. Some of them are OKAY but nothing that really grabs people; in other words nothing that people really want. My previous indie books continue to sell, years after they've been published, with no promotion. [There WAS promotion for them years ago.] The reasonable conclusion is that I, along with many others I'm sure, write what people want to read.

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This statement assumes that your tastes, and the tastes of your readers, are largely representative of the general populace. There is no support for such a generalization.

hello on_the_verge,

I was wondering what the name of your book is, genre, publisher, etc.

Maybe you could send us your amazon link?

I'm always interested in what folks are writing.

If you know something about business, then you must know that, to be successful, you must learn how the business of being published works. There are no shortage of good books and the ones you say are not very good, maybe they just know how the business works.

I am a businessman too. But my area of specialty does not make me qualifiied to sell books.

You can't change the rules from the bottom of the ladder, you have to follow them to advance.

on_the_verge said:

It has to do with you claiming to know that I can't sell my book, implying it must be bad; whereas I have, in fact, read plenty of recently published books. Some of them are OKAY but nothing that really grabs people; in other words nothing that people really want. My previous indie books continue to sell, years after they've been published, with no promotion. [There WAS promotion for them years ago.] The reasonable conclusion is that I, along with many others I'm sure, write what people want to read.

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I said your book may be very good. It may. It may not. I don't know. But if I were getting a lot of rejections for something, I'd look to the book for answers. If you still believe in it - as you obviously do - then sure, stand by it. Plenty of successful books have become so after rejection. But there's no need to be so snarky towards me.

Are book sales declining? I've heard that was a fallacy...

I notice you've been registered since May 2006. Your sudden need to tout conspiracy theories and ways to revamp the publishing world wouldn't be an extension of Project 112 and an attempt to make the internet more interesting to you personally, would it?

Okay. I'm ignorant. What is Project 112? When I googled it, it only came up with stuff about SHAD (Shipboard Hazard and Defense).