Description.... (lack there of?)

Chasing the Horizon · Nov 14, 2006

I just finished the first few chapters of my actual manuscript (already have almost 100 pages of draft), and the people I’ve let read it seem to think I’m not describing things well enough. But I’m not sure they’re correct because the things they say I don’t describe are not important to the story.
For example:
In the first chapter we start in a fictional city, from the POV of my female lead who lives there. I only have a few lines about what the city looks like because at the end of the second chapter we sail away from that city and never look back. Also, since she lives there she’s not going to be thinking about what it looks like, it always looks like that. So why do I need to switch into complete third person and waste time describing something no-one cares about? I hate it when writers spend a page describing the background and then say something like ‘but Arkadia wasn’t thinking about any of that as her eyes were focused on the line of sailing ships docked in the harbor’ If none of that matters, why did you write it??? :Huh:

The other thing everyone points out is that I don’t describe my female lead until my male lead sees her for the first time, about 5 pages in. What am I supposed to do, describe her in complete third person?
I wouldn’t worry about any of this except I know descriptive writing is not my strong point. Do other people worry about describing details like the background for places that aren’t important?

Carmy · Nov 14, 2006

If the city isn't important, maybe you're starting the novel in the wrong place. Is it possible to show information about her as a flashback later on?

Simon Woodhouse · Nov 14, 2006

I tend to only describe what’s in the POV character's immediate vicinity. If they're looking at it, or it's important to them, then it's better if the reader knows about it as well.

As for what the few people who've read it have said, I once had an agent point out something similar to me. But like you, I knew that particular setting wasn't important to the overall story. What happened there was, but not the place itself.

Éclairer · Nov 14, 2006

Write what you want to write. If you're not interested in description; then don't bother. I personally don't find it irritating reading a book with little description.

Do you personally like anything about the city in which your MC is living? If so, mention it. If not, why? Insipid? I mean, like you stated right, it's familiar. No one spends hours gazing at landscape they've seen their whole life (except me, but I'm a scatter-brain and get distracted by shiny things and pretty birds) so maybe mention that she feels that way. That she's bored with her surroundings. That she knows them inside and out. That she's focused on something beyond; something else. Make your own disinterest, hers.

Manat · Nov 15, 2006

I think it depends a lot on the story or genre. If you're writing mystery, horror, adventure, historical, sci fi, or fantasy, a certain level of description helps the reader enter your story. It pulls them in to that magic space where they leave their own familiar world and enter yours. You don't want to go overboard, but a little world building can go a long way to setting mood, tone, and bringing your reader along for the ride. It's also more important in some genres than others.

Just my humble opinion

Willowmound · Nov 15, 2006

My rule of thumb with describing characters is: description fairly early on or not at all.

Don't start describing a character late, when the reader's bound to have formed a picture already, probably differing from yours.

NeuroFizz · Nov 15, 2006

You have a kill-two-birds kind of potential here with the setting thing. (First bird) let your character react to how her city looks in the particular season in which the story is taking place--how the season changes the appearance of the city she knows so well (maybe she doesn't feel like she knows the city so well when it looks like this.) This doesn't have to be much. Just a few sentences/thoughts. And they can be clumped or scattered. (Second bird) Choose the season and the character's reaction to help set the mood of the scene. This doesn't have to be overt--it can be subtle. Description of setting tends to settle some readers into the story, but it's a great way to help get with the mood thing. And not just big things like light and dark moods. It can be used to underline feelings like aniticipation, regret, or other kinds of more complex moods. This will be particularly effective (and compact) if you do it through the character's reactions to the season (or even time of day).

Bufty · Nov 15, 2006

Hope to the Horizon.

Your problem may not even exist - the question may be being raised simply because you've handed your manuscript out too early to readers and they feel they must seize on something. Who are they anyway? Friends -pals?

Just make sure that what's happening is what gets folks' attention. It could be they're latching onto the scenery because nothing's happening and they don't know how to tell you that.

Press on, and I suggest you reconsider letting folk see your manuscript before it's finished. It can cause confusion, as you're finding out.

If you want some outside views you could pop the opening chapter into the Share-Your-Work Forum here. If you do so, make sure you have a very tough skin and be prepared for some straight responses that may or may not be to your liking.

And nothing wrong with simplicity and clarity. Descriptions don't need to be in colourful exotic phrases or go on for ever -they only need to convey an image upon which the reader can build as he reads.

Good luck.

Laurawrites · Nov 15, 2006

Description

Hello.

You have received some good advice. I'll add my two cents worth

I think description is far less important than action in any book. If the city is not pivotal, there's no reason to go ballistic over the architecture. The character should be the main focus unless it's a Gothic novel or something where the setting is akin to a character unto itself.

When you are describing, use only a few lines between actions. I can't count the number of novels I've read that are absolutely wonderful reads until the author comes to describing something. Then, it's paragraph after paragraph of solid nothing. The momentum halts. The drive to see what happens next is lost. The reader then must skip until they see the action resume, or just toss the book.

Everyone loves to read about interesting places, there's no doubt about that. But, your book should never be about solid description. If people want to learn more about the characters and story, you have got something great. They have to read on to see if their assumptions are correct.

I think it sounds appropriate that you don't describe the heroine until the hero comes in. Usually, people don't often take time out of their day to consider if their hair is auburn or brown, or think of what color their eyes are. But, if it's on other people, that's something entirely different.

Hope this helps.

Laura

Roger J Carlson · Nov 15, 2006

Here's a rule of thumb: When readers tell you something is wrong, they are usually right. When readers tell you how to fix it, they are usually wrong.

My guess is that the readers who tell you that you didn't describe the city well enough simply don't have a feeling of 'place'. The world doesn't feel concrete to them. They believe it's because you haven't described it well enough, but maybe it's because you haven't shown it through the character's eyes well enough. Or maybe you need to have the main character interact in the environment more. (Just a couple of examples, without reading it I can't say for sure.)

One thing is sure, if several readers don't like something about your book, you better take a close look at it. They may not be right about the reasons, but if your close friends won't give it a pass, you can be sure that complete strangers won't either.

Andre_Laurent · Nov 15, 2006

I don't use a lot of description but when I do, I try to make it count. My favorite line of description so far: It couldn’t have been more out of place in the run down neighborhood than a jewel dropped on top of a turd.

britwrit · Nov 15, 2006

Roger Carlson is right. Readers complaining about the lack of description might actually be complaining about something else (even though they don't know it). If they'd been drawn right into the story, going light on describing the setting wouldn't have mattered at all.

And yeah - it does sound like you're handing out your WIP a little too early.

zornhau · Nov 15, 2006

Use the Strife Ray!

OK, it's my pet theory, but I've seen it used it the wild. Basically, readers are like CSIs using that funny torch to look for blood. They perceive your story world in the light of a Conflict Ray, and only really see scenery of it's been daubed with conflict.

So, presumably some conflict happens in the city chapters? Tie it in with the scenery. I don't just mean use the scenery as a backdrop. I mean make the scenery become the tactical context. E.g. chatting somebody up in a busy fish market would present certain challenges, which in turn would bring the market to life.

For action scenes, it's easier. Those quaint minarets suddenly become very real if they conceal snipers...

LucindaLynx · Nov 15, 2006

I had to put my spoon in....

Roger J Carlson said:
Here's a rule of thumb: When readers tell you something is wrong, they are usually right. When readers tell you how to fix it, they are usually wrong.

Interesting to hear that.

Roger J Carlson said:
One thing is sure, if several readers don't like something about your book, you better take a close look at it. They may not be right about the reasons, but if your close friends won't give it a pass, you can be sure that complete strangers won't either.

In a way I could say I have some experience of this. And I owe you one huge thanks for saying this, even I won't let my friends read what I have written. But when writing in English is in question, one friend of mine has a priviledge to read my writing. Why? Because I want her to check, if I have written something wrong. And when I say wrong, I mean grammatically wrong. The storyline...well, that is another issue.

blacbird · Nov 15, 2006

Roger J Carlson said:
Here's a rule of thumb: When readers tell you something is wrong, they are usually right. When readers tell you how to fix it, they are usually wrong.

I agree with this, in a slightly different permutation. First, they're not always wrong about what's wrong, though they can be. But when a reader has a problem with something, it does usually mean something is wrong with that something. It may well not be what the reader seems to think it is, but it's a signal that the writer could do whatever it is in a better, clearer way.

Dam . . . I been listening to Donald Rumsfeld too much.

caw.

Papa'sLiver · Nov 15, 2006

The key is finding the right words for the description. Words that our imaginations can use as a jumping off point. Whether those words are a lot or a little is not as important as using the RIGHT words to convey the image.

Scarlett_156 · Nov 15, 2006

I've posted some of my own very recent written stuff in the "share your work" section. Interestingly, one of the members of this board said I used "too much description" in a paragraph of a few lines at the beginning of the narrative-- with my intent being to establish mood. Another member found fault with my lack of description in the opening paragraphs of another story. I appreciated both comments, but I still write how I want to.

I also agree with Roger J Carlson. Listen to the overall critique that the person gives of your work, and don't stress the little details-- especially if that person is NOT a writer. If I give my story or outline to someone who doesn't read or write a lot and he reads it all the way through, then I know I'm doing great no matter what he says in criticism. If they DON'T read it all the way through, even if they say generally nice things I know I need to work on it some more.

Dave.C.Robinson · Nov 15, 2006

Roger J Carlson said:
Here's a rule of thumb: When readers tell you something is wrong, they are usually right. When readers tell you how to fix it, they are usually wrong.

SNIP

One thing is sure, if several readers don't like something about your book, you better take a close look at it. They may not be right about the reasons, but if your close friends won't give it a pass, you can be sure that complete strangers won't either.

I follow a similar path. If someone tells me a problem it means something I did isn't working. Not having all the info I have, they may not understand the best way to fix something, but if they can describe the weakness clearly it's really helpful for improving my work.

TrainofThought · Nov 15, 2006

In regards to setting, my characters react to what’s around them. I don’t necessarily describe what the city looks like but how it reacts to the character (the season, people). The reader should get a sense of the city especially if they have never been there.

As for character description, some readers want to visualize the character right off the bat, and others don’t care for a blow-by-blow description. My characters are described several chapters into the book with some descriptions (observations) along the way.

I agree with others that state your readers only received a few chapters. They are not getting the full picture, only pieces of it. My two cents and go with your gut.

Chasing the Horizon · Nov 15, 2006

Wow, you all give really great advice. I think you're right about me handing it out to early, if I had waited until I had the first four or five chapters done I think everyone would have been so caught up in the events that they wouldn't have remembered what the city looked like even if I did describe it. I should tell you that what I write is romance/fantasy, just for referance. So it does take place on another world, probably another reason description is more important. I am writing in third person omni (I know what a lot of people on here say about that, but still) but I try to avoid the whole 'writer is invisible orb hovering, seeing and knowing all' effect at any cost.

I totally agree with what a few people said about describing through action. The same readers who said I didn't describe the initial scene well enough had no complaints about any of the action scenes that came after. I've so far only let a couple members of my family read it, but they are all avid readers of fiction, so I give their opinions some credit. I'm saving the other people I trust for after I get the first 8-10 chapters finished. I may go ahead and post the first chapter in the 'share your work' section once I feel I've gotten it as polished as I know how. I know the beginning is really important, and it seems to be harder to write too!

I am going to take some of your advice and add some description of my main characters impressions of the city. Not alot, but at least a few lines.

Thanks so much, this really does seem like a great forum!

Linda Adams · Nov 15, 2006

Echoing what the others have said, I've had critiquers focus on the wrong things, wanting more details that really aren't important later in the story. We have a small town in mine, and it's only really used in the first couple of chapters as the story gets started. Yet, many of the critiquers kept trying to feret out information about this town like everything needs to be explained in great detail. They did the same thing with a character who appears in one chapter and is referred to by title only--they all wanted to know what his name was!

Diviner · Nov 15, 2006

Description is more than what can be seen. Sounds and smells and the way things feel are also part of description. also, the things a POV character notices go part way to describing the character. Perhaps what your readers are missing is something that makes it seem the character really is there, how the character feels about being there. I am not disagreeing whit what others have said--you have been given good advice--but specificity in details is what makes readers believe.

NeuroFizz · Nov 16, 2006

Diviner has a good point. Much ink has been spilled railing against creation of cardboard characters. Something should be said about having three-dimensional characters move through a "cardboard" environment--one that has no depth or no sensory involvement. A three-dimensional character deserves a three-dimensional environment, and it doesn't take paragraph after paragraph to create this kind of setting. The problem I've had, which I'll generalize to other writers--I have a picture of the setting in my head, so through economy of words, I may not sufficiently paint a picture of that setting with the words I choose, at least one that is as complete as my mental picture**. Readers don't have the advantage of that pre-conceived head picture. They have to rely on the words only. Here may lurk the problem.

**This is probably one of the many keys to good writing--knowing how to translate the picture in one's head into words in a way that mirrors the mental vision (without overdoing it).

Also, I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss the comments of beta readers as next-to-useless (as some have been doing in this thread). If you feel that way, don't use beta readers. You are just wasting their time.

Bufty · Nov 16, 2006

I may be misunderstanding what is meant by this, but I thought that was the preferable effect in omniscient. An invisible narrator.

Hope To The Horizon said:
...but I try to avoid the whole 'writer is invisible orb hovering, seeing and knowing all' effect at any cost.

janetbellinger · Nov 16, 2006

I try to mention the background in conversation or action.

Description.... (lack there of?)

Chasing the Horizon

Blowing in the Wind

Carmy

Simon Woodhouse

Éclairer

Manat

Willowmound

Lightly salted

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

Laurawrites

Super Morbid

Roger J Carlson

Moderator In Name Only

Andre_Laurent

britwrit

zornhau

Swordsman

LucindaLynx

blacbird

Papa'sLiver

Scarlett_156

asdf

Dave.C.Robinson

... with the High Command

TrainofThought

A flowering bud of bitchiness

Chasing the Horizon

Blowing in the Wind

Linda Adams

Soldier, Storyteller

Diviner

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it

Bufty

Where have the last ten years gone?

janetbellinger