Second person narrative

ErylRavenwell · Nov 13, 2006

Well, I'm editing my main project right now; meanwhile, I'm also writing a novella—experimenting with second person narrative. So far I like the feel of it.
Sometime ago, I found out to my great dismay I'm incapable of writing in the first person. Not wanting to limit myself to third person, I'm nowadays seeking compensation by nurturing another mode of story telling: second person narrative.

Could any of you fellow writers enlighten me on this unusual mode of narration? I'm all ear. Thx.

Tracy · Nov 14, 2006

Gosh, don't really know what to say. I think second person narrative would be very hard to read - I'd certainly feel very uncomfortable with it. I'd be reading, "You're walking down the hall now", or "you walked down the hall", and I'd be thinking, "No I'm not, I'm sitting here reading". It'd constantly jerk me out of my willing suspension of disbelief.

Maybe post a little bit of your opus in Share Your Work and let people see how they react to the actual writing.

Good luck either way - it's good to think out side the box and try something different, even if (IMO) it doesn't always come off.

Beyondian · Nov 14, 2006

Second person?
I've only ever written in it for fun. Light stuff that I didn't take seriously. I've found it always to be a very tricky form to write in. The writer is telling the reader that they are someone else and that they are experiencing and feeling what the writer's character feels. It's hard to do.
The only novels I've ever seen done like it are Choose-Your-Own-Adventures. If you feel comfortable following this mode, fine.
Personally, I like Third-Person-Limited. I write First-Person only in short stories.
Both second person and first person have a similar problem. When the reader is a kind of person who gets deeply involved in the story, they are asked to suspend reality and 'become' the character. In first person (when I read it) I either project the same face on most of the 'narrators' or I identify very closely with the character. In essence, I become the 'I'. This can be disturbing if the first person narrator turns out to be a bad guy. Sometimes disturbing in good way, sometimes in a bad way.
Second person is even more awkward in this sense.
I have read first person books that have worked for me. I have never read a second person that has worked for me.

Snitchcat · Nov 14, 2006

For me, second person in the CYOA style is expected and I like it. However, I've yet to read a novel written in second person. And considering I've not read all the books in the world, not having read one is a given. (^^)

Not sure I'd want to read a novel using that perspective. But, willing to give it a try.

I also agree with Tracy -- post a bit in Share Your Work and see how people react to it.

(^_^)

ErylRavenwell · Nov 14, 2006

Tracy said:
Gosh, don't really know what to say. I think second person narrative would be very hard to read - I'd certainly feel very uncomfortable with it. I'd be reading, "You're walking down the hall now", or "you walked down the hall", and I'd be thinking, "No I'm not, I'm sitting here reading". It'd constantly jerk me out of my willing suspension of disbelief.

Maybe post a little bit of your opus in Share Your Work and let people see how they react to the actual writing.

Good luck either way - it's good to think out side the box and try something different, even if (IMO) it doesn't always come off.

I agree it can be very awkward as a mode of narrative. But somehow when the narrator is anchored to a dark, anti-hero protagonist, the ambiance is ideal for dark fantasy. It's definitely an atmosphere peculiar to that mode, and impossible to reproduce using first, third person narrative . Also can be dramatic when the narrator appeared briefly and the mode shifts to first person. (but most of the time the narrator remains explicitly unidentified). I wouldn't use that mode for a big project, but a novella, I have nothing to lose. clear SPN is unfamiliar terrain, but this is the allure about it. Too few novels are recounted in that mode.

Beyondian · Nov 14, 2006

Well, I have been known to write dark fantasy, and I usually write it in first person or third person. As I said, I haven't read any second person yet that gelled for me.
Do you know of any dark fantasy novels that have been written in this POV? I'd be interested in having a look at them.
As the others have said, it would be really good to see a sample of your work written in this style. Just because this POV has never really gelled with me before doesn't mean that it will never gell with me.
I'd be interested to see your take on it.

ErylRavenwell · Nov 14, 2006

Beyondian said:
Second person?
Both second person and first person have a similar problem. I either project the same face on most of the 'narrators' or I identify very closely with the character. In essence, I become the 'I'. This can be disturbing if the first person narrator turns out to be a bad guy. Sometimes disturbing in good way, sometimes in a bad way.
Second person is even more awkward in this sense.
I have read first person books that have worked for me. I have never read a second person that has worked for me.

Interesting, essentially we are afflicted by the same problem, except I can't connect to the good guy; however,I have no problem relating to the bad guy. Not that I'm inherently evil

, but I remember back then I've always been attracted to flawed characters. Everyone likes Spiderman and Superman; never been my cup of tea. Back then I was so fond of Wolverine and Sabretooth—the latter a remorseless killing machine thriving on glorious chaos.

It's a matter of personality. I'm guessing.

ErylRavenwell · Nov 14, 2006

Beyondian said:
Well, I have been known to write dark fantasy, and I usually write it in first person or third person. As I said, I haven't read any second person yet that gelled for me.
Do you know of any dark fantasy novels that have been written in this POV? I'd be interested in having a look at them.
As the others have said, it would be really good to see a sample of your work written in this style. Just because this POV has never really gelled with me before doesn't mean that it will never gell with me.
I'd be interested to see your take on it.

Oh, SPN is a novelty to me. But here is a list from wikipedia. Hemingway's on the list. I will post a sample. Promise.

Iain Banks 1997 A Song of Stone
Michel Butor 1957 La Modification (tr. Second Thoughts)
Italo Calvino 1979 Se una notte d’inverno un viaggiatore (tr. If On a Winter's Night a Traveler)
Marguerite Duras 1982 La Maladie de la mort (tr. Malady of Death)
Nuruddin Farah 1986 Maps
William Faulkner 1936 Absalom, Absalom!
Carlos Fuentes 1962 Aura (tr. Aura)
Günter Grass 1961 Katz und Maus (tr. Cat and Mouse)
Sunetra Gupta 1993 The Glassblower's Breath
Nathaniel Hawthorne 1835 "The Haunted Mind" in Twice-Told Tales (1837)
Ernest Hemingway 1929 A Farewell To Arms
Jan Kjærstad 1993 Forføreren (tr. The Seducer)
Karin Lowachee 2002 Warchild
Jay McInerney 1984 Bright Lights, Big City
Chuck Palahniuk 2005 "Foot Work" in Haunted
Georges Perec 1967 Un homme qui dort (tr. A Man Asleep)
Keith Roberts 1980 Molly Zero
Tom Robbins 1994 Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas
Jeff VanderMeer 2003 Veniss Underground

Beyondian · Nov 14, 2006

Wow! Thank you. I'll try to check a few of those out and see how they flow. It is always nice to learn more about different writing styles.
Incidentally, before I didn't mean that I can't relate to the bad guys. I have an extra soft spot for anti-heroes. I was more refferencing a time I read a first-person and the protag seemed to be a hero until the very end, where it was spring that she was a homicidal psychopath. I had let her into my head and sympathised with her, and I didn't like finding out that I had been rooting for the monster.
I love Wolvie, though I'm not so fond of Sabretooth. One of my personal favorite characters from my novel is an evil Vampire.
What can I say? I'm a sucker for fangs and bat-wings.
ETA... now when an author tells you the first person protag is evil early on, it is a lot easier to handle.

Nakhlasmoke · Nov 14, 2006

Hmmm, I'm reading Song Of Stone now, and at first I put it down because the you's were irritating me. Then I attempted it again, telling myself that I'm listening (reading, whatever) to the narrator telling the story to someone sitting next to me.

I'm further along this time.

Marlys · Nov 14, 2006

I did it once, for flash fiction. Not sure I could sustain it for an entire novel. Here's mine if anyone wants to check it out.

LeeFlower · Nov 14, 2006

I wrote a story that I suppose could be considered second person a while ago. The reason that I think it worked in my case is that the narrator was not addressing the reader. The 'you' was a very specific group in the world of the story that my character was speaking to. The reader had basically just intercepted the transmission.

It seems like addressing the audience directly can be done well, as long as you're speaking to them and not presuming to know how they'd behave in a given situation. For instance, when a first-person narrator with a very chatty voice says something like "you know that smell hospital waiting rooms have? I love that smell," I don't have a problem with it. But if they were to say "Every time you walk into a waiting room, you hate that hospital smell a little more," I'd be going "uh... no I don't."

veinglory · Nov 14, 2006

Note that Warchild is not a total second person novel, only the first chapter is. I was very pleased about that because by the end of the first chapter I was ready to throw it in the bin with all the 'you smell this' 'you do that'. It was like a fictional version of 'you put your left foot in, you take you left foot out...)

ChaosTitan · Nov 14, 2006

I've never actually read a novel or story written in second-person. And since I like to be argumentative, I'd probably spend the entire novel going "No, I don't," "I don't want to," and "Says you!"

John61480 · Nov 14, 2006

I haven't read an entire novel written in second person either.

However, I have taken the liberties with the use of the second person in my writing a few times -- usually as thoughts. For example:

Cindy thought: You'd think he would know better by now.

or even better: It's like holding a fart on your first date with the girl sitting on your lap. You had to be very delicate in these situations. One small nudge the wrong way or failing to remember you even have to fart and Phffft!

Simple eh? -- and it does refreshen the plot as you go along and bump into something like that. Sort of like garnishing a dinner with something like parsley or rosemary.

WerenCole · Nov 14, 2006

Good luck. Keep it as an exercise. It is hard to stay in the 2nd person, but if you find that you can and do, it could mess up your style in other ways.

Look for the unintended consequences in everything and see if they are acceptable.

Éclairer · Nov 14, 2006

John61480 said:
or even better: It's like holding a fart on your first date with the girl sitting on your lap. You had to be very delicate in these situations. One small nudge the wrong way or failing to remember you even have to fart and Phffft!

I frequently dive into little asides; keeps up the rapport with the reader.

Anywho, second person? I have read a novel in second-p and I didn't find it particularly annoying. The woman, if I recall correctly, was a crack-addict with young children and a slippery sort of knave for an ex-husband. I did not feel put upon. It can work. It's just tricky.

peevy · Nov 14, 2006

Small chunks of my manuscript are written in second person because the story is being told to a specific person.

I think second person can be really cool. It's got a strange sort of effect that you can really take advantage of.

Don't be afraid to experiment. If you want to write a whole novel in second person, go for it.

zornhau · Nov 14, 2006

Charles Stross has just completed a novel in 2nd person. Personally, I think he's insane, but he does have a knack of making things work. Here's a link to his thoughts on 2nd person:
http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2006/06/thoughts_from_the_coal_face.html

FergieC · Nov 15, 2006

I like using second person. It gives a very different feel to 1st or 3rd. I'm attempting to use it in a novel I'm writing at the moment, for one specific character, and for the narration of an event that happened in her history.

It gives a distance, and feeling of dream-like dissociation, almost as if she can't quite admit she was involved, but has to narrate it as if there is some other invovled - the 'you'. It's tough to write without sounding daft after a while though. I've written the entire first chapter in it, and I'm not sure that was a wise idea...ah well, there'll be time to change it in the re-writes if necessary.

JimmyB27 · Nov 15, 2006

Nakhlasmoke said:
Hmmm, I'm reading Song Of Stone now, and at first I put it down because the you's were irritating me. Then I attempted it again, telling myself that I'm listening (reading, whatever) to the narrator telling the story to someone sitting next to me.

I'm further along this time.

I've tried to read Song of Stone twice now. Gave up both times - and I'm a big Banks fan.
But, one of the things I love about Banks is how he experiments with different styles. Didn't work this time, but I'm happy to let him off

There's another book of his, Complicity, that has small sections written in second person. I think they work better - a whole book to slog through is a bit much IMHO.

zornhau · Nov 15, 2006

ErylRavenwell said:
Not wanting to limit myself to third person, I'm nowadays seeking compensation by nurturing another mode of story telling: second person narrative.

Been thinking about this one.

1st, 2nd or limited 3rd all have the same limited viewpoint. The difference, surely, is in effect and technical difficulty.

3rd has to be the easiest mainly because you need only reflect the character's POV, not his/her voice. It's effect of apparent transparency is also the easiest to handle, because it is predictable.

1st and 2nd - you have the added complication of the character's voice, and their selectivity. Not all interesting characters have interesting voices, or would dwell on the stuff we find interesting. Can you imagine how Conan would relate his adventures? Less well than REH, I think. Both have the effect of putting a filter between the reader and the story.

Of the two, 2nd has to be the hardest. You have the added problems of using an unfamilar lexicon to sustain a narrative, while the unusual voice may have the effect of alienating readers.

So, I don't see how 2nd could possibly be an easier choice than 1st person.

Just because there is a taxonomy of tenses and persons, does not mean that they are all equally useful. In the end, you judge a house on whether it stays up and keeps out the weather, not on the clever alternative to bricks used in the construction.

So - my (unpublished) advice: if your story matters to you more than literary tinkering, then get a handle on 1st or limited 3rd and tell the story.

UrsusMinor · Nov 15, 2006

"Bright Lights, Big City" was, in my estimation, pretty successful in using second person to good effect.

Second person tends to be a little distancing, a little chilly. In most regards, it is really first-person narration, but without the narrator being willing to "own" the statements--that is, the "you" seldom literally means "you," it generally means "one," and that "one" is an extrapolation of "I".

That's one reason that first-person detective noir so commonly slides into second-person when the narrator wants to make pseudo-objective observations ("You think you've seen every kind of crazy thing people can fo to one another, and then life shows you that you haven't seen everything yet..."). This kind of hard-boiled stuff often slides from first into second for paragraphs at a time without readers noticing. Why? Because hard-boiled first-person and any kind of second-person are close cousins--direct narration from a very specific voice, but with considerable emotional distance.

"Bright Lights, Big City" works well, even if you don't care for that sort of novel. But I have to admit that another fifty pages would have made me set my hair on fire.

Kasey Mackenzie · Nov 15, 2006

I hate second person narration. Loathe it. I accept that this may be a personal preference and I may be missing some fabulous books by refusing to read long works of fiction in second person. I'll get over it. =)

pdr · Nov 15, 2006

Enjoy it!

If it feels right for the story enjoy using 2nd person. Like using 1st, you need to be very careful that it doesn't swamp the narrative, but you can have fun playing with it.

And if you feel like experimenting further use 1st plural = we. It's great to use in fantasy when you want a small close knit group to experience something and try to explain it.

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