Best & most legitimate professional script consultants? [Archive]

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Ted Smith

12-06-2004, 07:43 AM

SimonSays

12-06-2004, 08:12 AM

Linda Seger is probably the best - but she's really expensive.

the scriptbroker is also really good - less expensive than Seger.

CelluloidLover

12-07-2004, 03:03 AM

try swmentor@hotmail.com. He's a professional writer and doesn't charge and arm and a leg. He worked on two of my scripts and did a very solid job.

canelatea

12-07-2004, 10:39 PM

Dara Marks is well regarded. If I were to use someone, I might use her. I heard her speak about story, character and theme. Made sense to me.

Maria Buenos Aires

05-03-2006, 08:16 PM

Just joined in, and I'm in the same predicament... wondering whether this makes sense. Ted: Did you finally use one of the script consultants? What did you think? Does anyone actually know Linda Seger's work? Is it worth the money?

xhouseboy

05-03-2006, 10:27 PM

One of the things that never fails to ring an alarm bell with me as regards script doctors, etc, is track record (or lack of it) within the industry.

Do they have one, and if so, why give up on a lucrative career to advise others on how their work should read.

And if not (as can be the case), is it wise to pay for advice from someone who hasn't sold a script? If their advice is such gold, wouldn't they do a lot better applying said advice to their own work?

Just a thought.

zeprosnepsid

05-04-2006, 12:34 AM

I'm guessing you don't have any avenues toward getting script coverage from studios or agents? Because that's pretty handy and also free....

kdtighe

05-04-2006, 12:55 AM

[QUOTE=xhouseboy]One of the things that never fails to ring an alarm bell with me as regards script doctors, etc, is track record (or lack of it) within the industry...

I was just scanning this thread. My brother knows a thing or two about the industry...as an example he mentioned to me that Carrie Fisher does quite well fixing up scripts.

So for whatever it's worth just because a person fixes scripts doesn't mean they don't have talent or a track record.

;)

kdtighe

05-04-2006, 01:18 AM

Linda Seger is probably the best - but she's really expensive.

the scriptbroker is also really good - less expensive than Seger.

What kind of price range are we talking about?

Kevin

xhouseboy

05-04-2006, 01:52 AM

I was just scanning this thread. My brother knows a thing or two about the industry...as an example he mentioned to me that Carrie Fisher does quite well fixing up scripts.

So for whatever it's worth just because a person fixes scripts doesn't mean they don't have talent or a track record.

;)

I'm not sure I get the point here.

Carrie Fisher so obviously does have track within the industry. She's also got contacts, and if her advice can make a script fly, then she's probably a good option as she may well be able to get it to the right people.

I was referring to those who charge and arm and a leg and have no real credentials -- and there's a few of them out there.

kdtighe

05-04-2006, 02:07 AM

Perdita

05-04-2006, 02:34 AM

I'm not sure I get the point here.

Carrie Fisher so obviously does have track within the industry. She's also got contacts, and if her advice can make a script fly, then she's probably a good option as she may well be able to get it to the right people.

I was referring to those who charge and arm and a leg and have no real credentials -- and there's a few of them out there.

Carrie Fisher is/was a script doctor -- she's someone who's hired after a script is sold by the EP or the studio to get it ready to be filmed after it's been determined that problems can't be fixed by the first writer. She gets/got MAJOR bucks for her skill and talents at that level wouldn't be available to the average screenwriter. That's not the same as a script consultant...

And I do agree with you, xhouseboy, completely BUT there are some good script consultants, some good screenwriting teachers, some good editors, etc., who haven't written anything that's sold. Creative writing and fix-it writing come from different parts of the brain. So the question to be asked is not has the script consultant written anything that's sold, but has the consultant worked on/advised/re-worked anything that's been sold or been optioned.

Didn't G.B. Shaw say: "Those who can (write), do; those who can't, teach (or act as script consultants). Maybe there's a Mr. Holland out there for every budding screenwriter...

But, truly, what credentials would you ask them to have -- a certificate from the school of script consulting (UCLA extension maybe?) -- I'm not being argumentative, just curious because the young ones around here are also always asking me where they can get their scripts "fixed". I don't have an answer.

Perdita

05-04-2006, 02:41 AM

[QUOTE=xhouseboy]I'm not sure I get the point here...

I wasn't trying to be arguementative. I thought you questioned why a person would be a script doctor if they could simply write their own stuff. This made me think of the Carrie Fisher example. I'm sure she charges an arm, two legs and several other parts of the body!

Kevin

I can answer this question. I was a script doctor before I went into television. It's for the money. Lots and lots of money, no anguish, no pain, nothing personal, very challenging work but fun, too. In two weeks I'd earn more than most people did in a year. And I was always congratulated for saving the day. Why the original writer got branded as "difficult", I was branded as "cooperative". So I got lots of work... and never had the urge to "write my own stuff" in that medium. You are making a mistake when you assume that all people are in this business to be creative or to have their voice heard... sometimes it's just about the paycheck and the freedom that such a whopping amount of cash provides.

xhouseboy

05-04-2006, 04:04 AM

BUT there are some good script consultants, some good screenwriting teachers, some good editors, etc., who haven't written anything that's sold. Creative writing and fix-it writing come from different parts of the brain. So the question to be asked is not has the script consultant written anything that's sold, but has the consultant worked on/advised/re-worked anything that's been sold or been optioned.

Didn't G.B. Shaw say: "Those who can (write), do; those who can't, teach (or act as script consultants). Maybe there's a Mr. Holland out there for every budding screenwriter...

But, truly, what credentials would you ask them to have -- a certificate from the school of script consulting (UCLA extension maybe?) -- I'm not being argumentative, just curious because the young ones around here are also always asking me where they can get their scripts "fixed". I don't have an answer.

I agree, Perdita. And as for credentials, those you mentioned would more than suffice. In my book, rewriting another's work is track record, especially if it's a fix-up or polish job for the studios. And having advised or worked on anything that has been sold or optioned would also qualify.

I suppose the real point I was trying to make is that there are no real guarantees when a writer shells out for script doctoring services, and there are unqualified shysters out there who are cashing in on hope. And I know one or two of them (in the UK).

kdtighe

05-04-2006, 04:16 AM

Perdita

05-04-2006, 07:47 AM

I suppose the real point I was trying to make is that there are no real guarantees when a writer shells out for script doctoring services, and there are unqualified shysters out there who are cashing in on hope. And I know one or two of them (in the UK).

Boy, you got that right. And I hear about that all the time where budding novelists are concerned.

Perdita

05-04-2006, 07:50 AM

It would be nice to know what scripts the person has helped on that got sold but I doubt anyone would give out that info for obvious reasons. Without such a reference it seems me like a crap shoot.

Kevin

Kevin, your best bet might be to get a reference here at these boards from someone who has actually used a service and was happy with it. That might be the best you can do... but you might hit gold the first time out.

And besides, ALL of life is a crap shoot. You gotta play to win. What's that old saying about Babe Ruth?... in the year that he got the most home runs he also had the most strike outs...

magnum

05-04-2006, 02:55 PM

{Carrie Fisher is/was a script doctor -- she's someone who's hired after a script is sold by the EP or the studio to get it ready to be filmed after it's been determined that problems can't be fixed by the first writer. She gets/got MAJOR bucks for her skill and talents at that level wouldn't be available to the average screenwriter. That's not the same as a script consultant...}

So how do we get hold of said Carrie Fisher?

kdtighe

05-04-2006, 04:30 PM

And besides, ALL of life is a crap shoot. You gotta play to win. What's that old saying about Babe Ruth?... in the year that he got the most home runs he also had the most strike outs...

Exactly!

Kevin

dpaterso

05-04-2006, 05:14 PM

So how do we get hold of said Carrie Fisher?

Your best bet is to dress up as Jabba the Hutt.

Ms. Fisher's skills are well known and often go uncredited tho' of course she gets paid, alas I think she's a little out of everyone's league.

I've seen a fair number of people endorse www.bartgold.com (http://www.bartgold.com) - a working industry professional.

-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)
Stop reading this and get some writing done instead.

Perdita

05-04-2006, 06:36 PM

Your best bet is to dress up as Jabba the Hutt.

.

And have a million dollar cashier's check in hand made out to Ms. Fisher.;)

zeprosnepsid

05-19-2006, 03:55 AM

BottomlessCup

05-19-2006, 04:37 AM

Overwhelmingly, the studios don't let you see your coverage. You just get a form rejection or a heart-exploding phone call. Exceptions certainly happen, but for legal reasons, most of the time you never see it.

Paying for coverage is paying for solid, practical advice on how to make your script better. Concrete, objective views on what does/doesn't work and ideas for fixing the doesn'ts.

Studio/agency coverage is a whole 'nother animal. It's not written for the writer; it's written for the studio/agency. It's just a synop, log, and a frank (!) assessment of the work.

WritingFool

05-19-2006, 04:52 AM

I think one of the intangibles the original poster would get from this is exactly what hes looking for. And theres not a monetary value on it.

I bet he doesnt feel like his project is ready, because a) it hasnt recieved the responses from agents/managers/contests he entered...or b) hes preparing to do all the mentioned, is very apprehensive, and is merely trying to sharpen his story up, possibly keeping a confidential aspect to it all.

Either way, what hes looking for is peace of mind. He wants reassurance that he has a quality story, from a professional.
So, if this is whats going to keep him motivated, then by all means, its him getting an inch/foot or even block closer to his final outcome.

What works for some, might not work for others. Simple as that. So, mr original poster....just get one..try it, dont dwell on it - just get it out of the way, so you can continue on your course. Because just like theres so many books on screenwriting out there, and so many avenues to pursue, what may seem unreasonable to some, just might be the way for you.

So get your butt out there and just hire somebody. you have a few names here. If its a good story, the writings going to speak for itself anyway.

So, go out and do it your way. This way, if youre not satisfied with the outcome -- at least youll know you are still clawing your way to your goal. At least you'll have your peace of mind.

Hopefully, one day youll get there.
Good Luck!

dpaterso

05-19-2006, 12:13 PM

I may be a bit removed from reality because I work in the industry -- but I still don't know why you'd pay someone to do 'studio-level' script coverage when studios give coverage for free. Is it really that hard to get your script in the hands of a studio reader/coverage writer and get that kind of help for free?

But if you're an unsold spec writer with no creds or agent or contacts, just how does one get one's screenplay into the hands of a studio reader/coverage writer? (Short of buying a gun and devising a kidnap scheme that ends in a "Misery" type scenario.) I think that's maybe the reality which the majority of aspiring screenwriters on this board are facing.

Note to all, addressing the original poster may be a waste of time, the post date is December 2004.

-Derek
My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)
Stop reading this and get some writing done instead.

English Dave

05-19-2006, 07:13 PM

kojled

05-22-2006, 03:37 AM

scriptshark is one of the best. many, probably most, of these services a scams, or just a hair better than a scam. beware

z
MoovyBoovy (http://moovyboovy.com).com

zeprosnepsid

05-22-2006, 11:27 PM

Just wondering what it is you do in the 'industry' because that post is so full of holes I'm wondering if your next one will ask if I 'want fries with that.' :)

Right now I cut movie trailers and do entertainment journalism. I went to USC Film so pretty much everyone I know from college works in the industry in some capacity. All I really know about script coverage is what I hear from my friends who are always saying things like "I sent my script over to so-and-so at ICM and they sent me 3 pages of really good notes". I didn't realize it's not usual practice for screenwriters not to get notes back. And as noted, I have almost a dozen friends who have done or currently do script coverage for production companies, usually in between other jobs. I'm always getting e-mails from story editors and others who ask me if I want to do coverage but since I know very little about that whole side of the industry I never bother. I didn't claim I knew how every part of the industry works because I certainly don't =) I hide behind my Avid...

But I guess my advice then to a lot of the burdgeoning screenwriters is if you can it might be worthwhile to come to LA and meet some people. I was a party last weekend and my old roommate asked me if I had a $5mil horror script sitting around because New Line was looking. I didn't. But these kind of things happen all the time. But yeah, I often find I'm removed from every-day-screenwriter-reality.

And I really shouldn't have written all this because it usually leads to lots of personal emails from people asking me to do things I'm not going to do for them =) But hey, come to LA, make friends (not easy for anti-social screenwriters eh?), and be removed from the toils you find on boards like these...

Goodwriterguy

08-17-2006, 10:28 PM

Who are the the best & most legitimate professional script consultants? Excluding the "I would never pay someone to critique my script" or the "screenwriting consultants are useless" arguements, I'm simply looking for advice and feedback from those who have used a few of these services or others (or know anyone who has)...

- Script P.I.M.P. - www.scriptpimp.com/script...ex_ww2.cfm (http://www.scriptpimp.com/script_coverage/index_ww2.cfm)
- Coverage, Ink. - www.hprodev.com/coverageink/ (http://www.hprodev.com/coverageink/)
- Script Nannies - www.scriptnannies.com/index.html (http://www.scriptnannies.com/index.html)
- Story Sense - www.storysense.com/ (http://www.storysense.com/)
- James P. Mercurio - www.jamespmercurio.com/index.html (http://www.jamespmercurio.com/index.html)
- Story Notes - storynotes.com/ (http://storynotes.com/)
- Hollywood Lit. Sales - www.hollywoodlitsales.com/ (http://www.hollywoodlitsales.com/)
- Screenwriters Online - screenwriter.com/insider/news.html (http://screenwriter.com/insider/news.html)
- Totally Write - www.totallywrite.com/ (http://www.totallywrite.com/)
- Script Advisor - www.script-advisor.com/index.html (http://www.script-advisor.com/index.html)

Are any of these or others I haven't mentioned just complete crap or straight up scams? Are there any others I should consider that are pretty well regarded? A few of these claim they were mentioned in Creative Screenwriting magazine but I wanted to get feedback from more objective sources first.

Thanks!
Man! Did your question ever produce a flurry of responses!

I think almost every service on your list is a scam, not all, but most.

First, let's set a couple of things straight.

Script doctor versus script consultant
Not the same animals at all. As can be seen from posts in this thread, a script doctor is someone a producer hires to fix material that he or she has already purchased and is in the act of producing. This guy has to be good, quick, and a team player. A script doctor is a rewriter.

A script consultant is someone who does in-depth critiques of writer's work and provides copious notes and comments on all aspects and makes suggestions for improvements. A consultant does not rewrite.

Coverge versus Critique
Coverage isn't the same thing as a critique done by a competent script consultant. Coverage is usually reflected in a page or two of comments that follow a structure established by the studio or prodco or indie producer. Coverage might involve 2,000 words; a critique will or should involve twice that or more, depending on the quality of the work being critiqued.

Purpose
Some writers seek advice on specific issues they are dealing with; others seek advice on the whole work.

Qualifications
Selling a script isn't a necessary element. Most of the A-list consultants around, e.g., McKee, Seger, Fisher, Walter, Vogler, have never sold a script. I've been doing script consulting for the past six years and I've not sold a script, although I have written them for others and done some doctoring assignments. I've written ten feature scripts and have been in and around the industry for 20 years and worked on pictures in various capacities, from wrangler, to driver, to PA.

None of the script consultants I know have websites; some run ads in the backs of the screenwriting magazines. Most of their work comes by word-of-mouth referrals, as does my own.

Why do these people do consulting? Why do I do it?

Well, not for the money, that's for sure. They do it because they love the work, tey enjoy doing it, and enjoy the idea of helping someone make progress in their own eforts. They do it because they're good at it.

I sort of fell into doing it when I was participating on a Yahoo Groups listserve in the late 90's (a listserve that was run by the film school at UT's PanAm campus) and members were exchanging scripts and reads and comments and first thing ya know I had done a half-dozen critiques and then word got around and in the first year I did two dozen of them ... all gratis.

After about a year-and-a-half one client I had told me I "should be charging," and this was someone I respected, a good writer and all round great fellow. So in 2001 I started charging, $200 per, and that remains my rate today. I put up a website in 02 and had it up for two years but took it down because it was more hassle than I cared to endure and was generating more consulting work than I cared to be doing, plus I had hassles with domain naming that were frustrating and bothersome.

One time I did a check and discovered that my longest critique was some 16,000 words, not that length alone is any meaure of quality. I think I average somewhere between eight and 10,000 words, more or less.

I always suggest that a writer looking for someone to critique their work simply go to the backs of the screenwriting magazines, make a list of the consultants who advertise their services there, and get in touch with them. Tell them what you're looking for and what you expect. Talk it over, get a feel for them, and then ask them for a list of their clients you can contact directly to get feedback on their work. Those who are legit will happily provide such a list. Those who aren't will try to talk you out of it. Then, depending on the kinds of remarks you get from their clients, you can make a go or no-go decision.

I usually spend about 40 hours on a critique so at $200 you can do the math but it's $5 an hour, hardly a money making proposition. In lieu of cash I have accepted gifts ... pounds of coffee, bottles of wine or whiskey, books ... or done a trade, you critique mine, I critique yours.

I haven't counted lately, but last I checked I'd done almost 200 critiques since I started charging for them.

I use Microsoft Word's "comments" feature, which allows one to make comments and suggestions at the point to which they pertain but not befoul the script with added text ... because the "comments" feature stores its text in a separate but associated file and merely inserts a comment number at the point of reference, which the user can click on to open a window that displays the comment. Comments can be printed too, and the comments file can be opened in a split-screen mode so the user can read the script and read the comments as they go through it, instead of clicking on comment numbers.

I think a writer must get references, preferably from folks who have worked with the consultant they have in mind or have identified as a candidate to evaluate their work. If you get positive responses from two or three or four writers who have worked with the consultant you have in mind, you'll feel better about shelling out a little dough and can have some confidence in what you're going to get in return.

Otherwise, you're flying blind, and we know what that usually leads to.

Have fun!

xhouseboy

08-17-2006, 11:28 PM

Just as a matter of interest, GWG - did any of the scripts you critiqued then go on to be produced?

seanie blue

08-18-2006, 01:00 AM

Jbraykr -- thanks very much for providing some concrete details. Those three names are valuable info. Gold I think I'd heard of or seen somewhere else, but Doyon and Mullen are new and seem very reasonable. Thanks, dude, or thanks, Ma'am. Did you get the impression from Gold, Doyon or Mullen that they could help in anyway to move a script along if they believed in it? I've had 20 agents in my life, and all of them had interesting reputations, but were either a) hanging on or b) trying to break in. And these were Hollywood/Manhattan names who were JUST outside the power circles. I wote a screenplay for a singer from India and was on the phone for 45 minutes with her agent from CAA, and I liked that. For my own purposes, I'd like to have the connection with an agent who can get me in to pitch. Do these three people strike you as having any possibilities like this? Or are they there simply to help us with the physical words and work?

Goodwriterguy

08-18-2006, 02:30 AM

Just as a matter of interest, GWG - did any of the scripts you critiqued then go on to be produced?
The short answer is no.

Some have been optioned. Some ended up in development hell. Some went into turnaround.

But, here's the thing, most of the writers I've worked with have been beginners or those still very much in the learning process. I've only seen maybe six or eight or ten scripts that were within reach of generating buzz and getting picked up.

Some writers I've worked with have since thrown in the towel and moved on to other things; some remain in the game and some have made good progress, showing well in contests, getting reads, and so on.

HTH.

Goodwriterguy

08-18-2006, 02:34 AM

Rather than taking potshots at the people in your field, GWG, I think you'd be better off driving a truck. That is, if you can get a license.
Your condescending remark aside, show me a quote which you consider to be a "potshot" and I'll apologize for it.

I'm not in the potshotting business.

seanie blue

08-18-2006, 03:20 AM

Jbraykr -- I will send something in to Barb Doyon. Thanks for the link. I got my answers from their webpages regarding the agent biz. Of course that would be a terrible thing to advertise, since every writer would then want his/her script forwarded even it it didn't merit that action. I noticed Doyon offers 50% on referrals, so if you want to send me your name by private message I will be happy to let her know you were my referral.

I've had agents before, as I wrote, I've made movies, I've been reviewed, but I hate the Hollywood mainstream so much that I hardly bother to step into it. I've got "connections" galore, but only for mainstream stuff. I could get a job by next weekend being a reader or PA or even re-writing stuff, but I'd rather stand on a street corner and collect stories from the riff-raff. And I'm in Los Angeles. So for me the trick is to keep gathering acclaim, and fiind producers and like-minded individuals who think a story of mine would make the perfect non-Hollywood vehicle: less than $250K budget, with name actors, nationwide DVD distribution and international sales. Not much margin available, but instant access to bigger productions. We'll see what happens. Thanks for your thoughtful recommendations!

sean

------------------------
http://www.seanieblue.com
http://www.travelingwild.com

Goodwriterguy

08-18-2006, 05:23 AM

First of all, let me thank you for not editting your post to skew the argument your way.

That allows me to quote the following, regarding the list of consultants you pasted at the top of your post:

"Man! Did your question ever produce a flurry of responses!
I think almost every service on your list is a scam, not all, but most."

Of course, you use the qualifier "most", but the implication is fairly obvious.
These guys are "scam artists." You aren't (just ask you).

I think that's pretty pot-shotty, though we might argue the meaning of that term until the cows come home.

I'm also well aware of the fact that having a website doesn't qualify anyone for shy*tte - the reason I mentioned the websites of the 3 consultants I referenced, is that I don't know if they want their e-mail addresses given out.
If you wish to interpret my remark about the folks on that list as "potty shotty" go right ahead. But it's a generality, an opinion ... based on some time in the field both as a spec writer and as a consultant. I've had writers come to me after horrifying experiences with some of those on that list. Horrifying and expensive. That's my general take on that list.

I would not argue that everyone on the list was a scam artist. That's why I said "most," by which I meant three-quarters or something like that.

My remarks about websites had no relation to or bearing on your mention of the three you cited, none. What you said was fine with me. I was speaking to the board as a whole, not reacting to you specifically. I don't think there's anything wrong or negative about a consultant having a website up, heck, I had one up myself for two years. But there's also nothing weird or offbeat about not having a website, some do, some don't, and that was my point. Some do, some don't.

I'm sorry you took offense, which I believe was over-reaction, but whatever. I'm telling you now it's a bad read.

As far as whether I'm a scam artist is concerned, read what I said, which I'll paraphrase for you here, "I always suggest that writers get referrals, ask the consultant you're considering for a list of clients he's served that you may contact directly." I do not exclude myself from this kind of due dilligence. I do it myself when I'm shopping for a consultant. Any writer seeking a critique simply has to do this, or rely on the word of a friend who knows. Another thing I've done with folks considering using my services is to send them a copy of half a critique I've done, with names and such sanitized. You wanna see what I do? Have a look. See for yourself.

And I'll tell you how bad it gets out there. Clients of mine have sent me critiques they've paid good money for in which I see paragraphs and pages that I saw in the one I looked at last week, by a whole other guy. Somebody is making money selling model critiques guys can just cut and paste from.

Hollywood has a whole community of ever changing guys who hang around the periphery of the industry or bopping in and out of it, hoping for their big break. Meanwhile, they've got to make a living. You get a couple of failed or out-of-work writers together with a few out-of-work AD's or readers or whatever, and whatta ya know, they hatch a scheme. They apply their knowledge of the industry and its legions of wanna be's and figure out a way to tap into the cash flow. And in the modern manner of business they run a super low cost web based show and maximize their throughput, assembly line script critiqueing ... and best of all, they make a living. I've even been invited to participate in some of these schemes. And some are indeed done with all good intentions. But most are not.

There's been thousands of these kinds of deals in the entertainment industry over the years. It's nothing new (although the web has caused an increase in the numbers); it happens with actors and singers and dancers and artists of all kinds, not just writers.

Buyer beware. ;)

xhouseboy

08-18-2006, 05:56 AM

And I'll tell you how bad it gets out there. Clients of mine have sent me critiques they've paid good money for in which I see paragraphs and pages that I saw in the one I looked at last week, by a whole other guy. Somebody is making money selling model critiques guys can just cut and paste from.

;)

Ditto. I've also seen that.

seanie blue

08-18-2006, 04:30 PM

It does take guts to be associated with Hollywood. I agree with that 100%. All the more reason . . . to make . . . your own . . . movie. Even if it costs $100. For me personally, I'd love to see William Styron put his depression memoir into a 30-minute piece even if he doesn't know the first thing about acting, or shooting a camera or getting sound, etc. Just watched a documentary on Bukowski, and it was riveting. I don't even like Bukowski. But everyone wants to be a P.A. on the next 40-year-old virgin clunker. Unbelievable. And then they want to write the next 40-year-old virgin script. I have a friend who works as a reader at New Line; I swear, she shivers in either horror or depression when she talks about her job. And so many nitwits would love her job. $40K a year to read soporific trash, one screenplay after another. I ask if she's read anything, anything, that she would consider a good movie kin two years, and she looks at me as if I'm crazy. But every one of those scripts has a producer's interests attached, and the art of her job is to bring the excited producer down to Earth. Her first response, and she says it's been her first response for at least one year, is: "It doesn't make sense." If the producer is still ignoring her, she says: "Nobody will believe it." If the producer is still wondering whether he should call Nick Nolte's agent or Vin Diesel's agent, she says: "It won't make squat." Then the producers pay attention and want to know why. My friend needs the $40K. She eats burritos three times a week. She's thinking about getting into the fashion industry, but I have a friend who works at Guess and her stories are also . . . unbelievable.

Bukowski delivered the mail, which wasn't that bad. And he sorted the mail, which almost killed him. I watered plants once in a building downtown. It was a great job. Never thought I'd be thinking of it 20 years later with such fondness. Now I make pennies by hustling deals, sometimes depending on something I've written, but more often on what the moneybags is thinking, and I make a nice income for Lalalandia and have digs to die for, but I'm ready for Taos and whatever rush hour they've got there. Thirty-five thousand people in a county the size of Los Angeles. I'm looking forward to it, if I can ever get out of tinseltown.

cooeedownunder

08-18-2006, 05:42 PM

Goodwriterguy

08-18-2006, 11:17 PM

After reading all this...I wonder what would happen if you were to send the same, and a relatively good script, to two different coverage people?

After being on these boards I don't think they would be the same...hopefully they would pick up the obvious with formating, spelling and the likes...

I guess more cash could lead on the narrow and straight...
Nothin' like "more cash ..." ;)

Remember, "coverage" and "critique," while similar, are not the same things.

My expectation would be that critiques of the same script by two different analysts would produce very much the same results. I've even had this experience, by doing a critique for someone and having them come back and tell me, "You said the same thing [other guy] said" and proceeding to elaborate that in some detail.

I think this occurs because when it comes right down to it the form and its lingua franca are pretty well established; the conventions of genre are commonly known; the ideas of dramatic structure are reasonably well known and understood; notions of characterizations and theatricality are known, and the idea that "something has to happen every eight or ten pages" is well established; the concept of an inciting incident or story catalyst is commonly understood, and what "doesn't work" for one usually doesn't work for all.

I'm sure there would be variations on the theme, but in general I think the two products would be much alike in terms of their points of focus.

Most analysts don't concern themselves too much with incidentals like spelling and grammar, unless the mistakes are egregious, which isn't often the case.

Goodwriterguy

08-18-2006, 11:46 PM

Alright. I'll buy that.

Maybe I tend to forget all the research I had to do, to find a few passable script consultants. I've been burned with cookiecutter coverage in contests - one reason I've shied away from them lately, along with the exorbitant time it takes for them to get back to you - but I can honestly say that the same thing hasn't happened with consultants. Ergo, I probably have a rosier view of the field than you do - or than may necessarily be the case.

I saw a couple of names on your pasted list - James Mercurio, Script Pimp, etc. - people I considered to be legit. So when you posted, right after my input, I got a little testy. I'll apologize for that, in my turn.

I think it takes alot of guts to be associated with the movie industry these days. It seems almost as if this art of film, for whatever reason, may be forgotten or lost. I have nothing but respect for whoever makes a contribution to preserving the screenwriting form or helping it recover - and that includes the legitimate readers and consultants, of whom you are apparently one.
You're a good man, Charley Brown ...

The list wasn't something I created; it was posted by another, to whom I responded.

Be that as it may, I appreciate your words here; you've got things clocked on and zeroed in ... and that's a good thing.

It's interesting, I have always been a student of the craft, a strong advocate for and defender of writer's and their rights, and a devoted fan of screenwriting and movies. The guy who mentored me refused to accept payment for his efforts on my behalf, and they were monumental, and merely said, "Pass it on ..."

Wow!

I've been passing it on since, as best I'm able.

I have a little book on my bookshelf that's titled "The Screenwriter's Handbook (writing for the movies)," by Constance Nash and Virginia Oakley, published in 1978 by Long Road Productions. This book is reputed to be the very first "how to" book on screenwriring, and I think the claim is true. At 150 pp it's more of a booklet than a book, but you'd be amazed at its guidance and the principles it sets forth, as valid today as they were in 1978.

This book was followed in 1979 by "Writing the Script," by Wells Root, a guy who wrote films and television and was on the staff at UCLA Film School. Syd Field followed with his first book five years later. And then, in the late eighties, the book explosion came.

I have them all.

Just a wacky thing by an inveterate student.

So your comment, "I have nothing but respect for whoever makes a contribution to preserving the screenwriting form or helping it recover - and that includes the legitimate readers and consultants, of whom you are apparently one" hits me like a Mack truck and makes me wanna stand up and cheer, cuz that's exactly what I have been doing for the past 20+ years. I wanna cheer because someone, namely you, recognizes both the need and the value of this work and its myriad efforts, and the integrity it demands of its practitioners.

We are not alone, friend. There's a bunch of us around.

You can feel good today!

And so can I ... and indeed I do. :)

Thank you!

English Dave

08-19-2006, 12:10 AM

Goodwriterguy

08-19-2006, 01:54 AM

Before approaching any professional reader I'd first make sure I'd exhausted all my other sources. You can get very valuable feedback from non industry people. A good read is a good read. They may not be able to articulate your specific problems but they can give you an idea if it blows or not.

If your script is in bad shape when it goes to the reader then that reader is spending most of his time firefighting.

Ideally you'd want the reader to be focussing on that 20% push that turns your script into a movie not fighting a story that doesn't work.
True enough.

However, just to show ya, an old and very dear friend of mine who just recently retired from 40 years in the movie/television trades and who's last gig was exec producer of "Touched by an Angel," said to me one time, "It takes two weeks to absorb a feature."

And he's right. This is why it bothers me when I hear folks sing the praises when they get a 48-hour turnaround on a critique. Myself, I take a week, and in that week I'll read the piece three times, if not four.

Folks who know little or nothing about the form are a tad hard pressed to get it all; they can give you a general impression but in a lot of cases they'll say, "Gee, I thought it sucked," and when you press them for why, you get, "I dunno, it just sucked." Or, if they say, "Gee, I thought it was great," and you ask them why, same thing, "I dunno, I just liked it."

Well, that's worth something. And, certainly, if your friend or sister-in-law happens to be an English teacher or a well read intellectual, things might be more productive.

But when folks don't know what "(VO)" or "(OS)" or "BG" or "FG" or "crosses off," or even "INT" and EXT" mean, they can be in a world of hurt.

Know whattamean?

English Dave

08-19-2006, 02:41 AM

True enough.

However, just to show ya, an old and very dear friend of mine who just recently retired from 40 years in the movie/television trades and who's last gig was exec producer of "Touched by an Angel," said to me one time, "It takes two weeks to absorb a feature."

And he's right. This is why it bothers me when I hear folks sing the praises when they get a 48-hour turnaround on a critique.

Threre are those who make a living out of writing and those who make a living out of analysing otheres people's scripts.

Goodwriterguy

08-19-2006, 08:04 AM

"... it bothers me when I hear folks sing the praises when they get a 48-hour turnaround on a critique. Myself, I take a week, and in that week I'll read the piece three times, if not four." - Goodwriterguy

Yes, I think it's equally important to have an in-depth reader somewhere in the wings. Someone who has an idea who you are, where you're coming from, and where you hope to go with your craft.

But - since I'm not a recognized name - then, at some point, (since we only get ONE READ by any given studio, before our work, title and all, is put in the bin of the never-has-been), I want my screenplay to be read by someone who doesn't know me, who isn't invested in my work, who may be tired and distracted and following an entire other agenda than my own. In other words, I want it to be read exactly like one of those harried studio readers wd. read it: quickly, with impatience and a hair-trigger impulse to circular-file a screenplay if it shows continuing absence of craft.

Someone like that often catches problems that a more sympathetic reader ... maybe doesn't miss, but will either not mention or will sugar-coat to the point where I miss it.

That said, I've been surprised that the readers I mentioned above - in as short a time as I'm sure they look at my work - not only catch the faults but provide enough insight for me to figure out new paradigms to carry the work on.
I hear you loud and clear.

In fact, I'd point out that the additional time one might devote to a crititque over a read by a good solid studio reader or an analyst who works at a faster pace ... only buys you so much additional value, and I don't mean like anywhere near double. It may buy you ten per cent more, and it will only do this because it will have studied the matter more in depth, with more time for consideration and good analysis and note writing, what my producer friend meant when he used the word "absorb."

There is so damned much to look at and think about, so many levels of meaning in cinematic art, so many interconnections and relationships and interfaces and interstices ... not to get technical ... but things like the level of verisimilitude, theatricality (movies are a form of "theater") and the deeper aspects of characterization ... and the like. Intuitively, we all get this in a read, but to be conscious of it and able to write notes about it is a whole other ballgame. Grueling work. But fun!

Bob McKee has a Phd in "Film Studies," and that's the basis of his ability to do top notch analysis. I don't know but based on his book and his teaching my guess would be he majored (as it were) in the literary aspects of film, as opposed to, say, its narrative history or something. His book is all about writing. I took his seminar and it is all about writing. But the man's knowledge of the movies and film totally prepares him to write about the topic and to teach it. His depth is mind boggling.

The saving grace is that by the time a piece gets as far as yours has come, it doesn't need a Bob McKee critique, if it ever did. You need a studio reader. Well, try this ... go over to UCLA and check the bulletin boards in the Film School and see what's offered by way of reading. More than a few studio readers in town are film school students or recent grads in their "breaking in" mode. Juniors and seniors or MFA students sometimes advertise reading services at the school, some of whom may also be reading for a prodco or a studio at the same time. If you don't see any ads grab a Prof and talk to him about it. You may have to dig a little, but a lot of those folks do reading. And they don't charge an arm or a leg. Many are on-the-job experienced readers.

All the ways.

Your thought about a read from someone who doesn't know you is a good one. What mother would ever tell their kid their writing "needed work"? Or, God forbid, that it was "lousy"? Not gonna happen. And as you say it isn't even particularly conscious. It's in the relationship. It has been an odd experience for me to read a few hundred screenplays over the last while and not knowing their writers. I mean, talk about see everything one might imagine, that's where you see it, a volumn dependent perception. My line is fast becoming, "If it's been used, I've seen it."

Some truly amazing stuff. The best and the worst.

If I have one, my forte' is with stuff that's in first or maybe second draft which is a lot of what I see. People get hungup. Help! But I also see a lot of final drafts from people who are vetting. I do those in two days. Given my life and its boogie, a week turnaround with me is a pot of gold, and I usually meet deadlines. I'm also writing. My "also's" could fill a page so I won't bore you with them. Let's just say they're fun and envigorating and cool ... and they get some fair share of my time. Among other things, I spend four or five months in Mexico every winter.

We're gonna have every writer here super-tuned up on critiqueing.

Just a thought. :D

You have a good handle on what's up and who's on first and how they got there and what the next play is. Like Allstate, you're in good hands ... you're own.

So keep doing what you're doing ... and knock 'em dead!

Such fun we have. :hooray:

Goodwriterguy

08-19-2006, 11:21 AM

- not only for me, but for all us long-haul writers in whatever form.

Agree w/ you about Bob McKee - the best thinker about the screenplay form since I don't know when. In some ways, I think he has even more profound insight than Syd Field, though it's probably not a good idea to compare the two. One's a structuralist, (backed up by tremendous understanding of what makes a film work), the other's a kind of analyst/historian, but whose thoughts are really too deep and wide to be contained under that heading.
I got STORY in CD form and have listened to it three times, in six months. Everyone at whatever stage of development shd. go to a seminar by the guy or at least get his book.

So, on we go. Live and learn. I appreciate your contribution and I'm glad we got things settled out.
Yes, me too. This has turned out to be quite pleasant.

You're dead on with McKee.

He is an odd bird, however. When I did his seminar, which is like 36 hours over a weekend, I was living in Victoria and his deal was slated to occur at BCIT over in Vancouver. I had to take the boat, the early one. In fact, it was the night before. So I get there and while registering learn that the check I had paid for the seminar with had bounced ... and I wasn't gonna get in. I didn't have enough cash on me to cover the thing so I jammed off to some friend's house and borrowed what I needed and jammed back to BCIT, paid the fee, and got in. Whew!

Skin of my teeth. And Bob has some big heavies that travel with him who ensure that nobody's getting in who didn't pay. A fact of his reality I learned whilst scheming for a way in before I jammed to get the money. You know, like "Who me? I'm just the janitor." Wasn't feasible with those guys.

I'm in the third row and within five minutes I make a comment. Boom!

"There will be no comments!" Bob says. And no cameras, tape recorders, cell phones, or laptop computers, either.

And clearly he means it. He ragged on me the rest of the session. I was so angry I came this close to walking out, maybe even slugging him on the way. But I held muh mud and rode it out. The next day we enjoyed a coffee together and got ten to ourselves during lunch and he was a gentleman and the scholar and though taciturn, not mean, as he can appear to be, those damned thick eyebrows, that all knowing stern look.

I shook his hand and thanked him at the end, and said, truthfully, I had learned a great deal.

CUT TO:

I'm strolling the main drag of Noosa, Queensland, Australia in late March of 98 when I came upon a small bookseller, had some wares out on the walk. I see McKee's "STORY" staring me in the face, which I bought instantly and started reading that evening ... and kept reading as we packed and flew to Sydney and caught our flight for LA, and finished it ten minutes before landing. Absolutely could not stop reading it once I started. My wife was ready to shoot me.

And, I'd venture to say I've read it a half dozen times since, and there's still stuff in there I don't quite get.

Ah, the life.

I've never resonated with Field, dunno why particularly he just sort of turns me off. Too structural perhaps. He's made a fortune with his books and videos and was forced I think by dint of commercial interests to end up with the lowest common denominator, which gave him the biggest audience and the most income, but left writers a little short. New writers can start with him and do okay but soon enough they have to move on and swim the deeper waters of Egri, Vogler or Jospeh Campbell, Lew Hunter or Linda Seger and the like and, of course, Bob Mckee.

But you can't give STORY to a beginning writer, most beginner's get to about page 16 and throw in the towel. Understandably so. Better to start with Syd, and then grow from there. Syd Field is Screenwriting 101 and perhaps 201; Hunter is 434, and McKee is 702.

Onward!