What makes a good logline?

[AaronB]

I'm guessing everyone here has written a logline or two. How does one avoid writing a bad one, and be certain one is writing a good one?

Being a technical writer by trade, I'm biased toward factual information...but a logline is marketing copy, so in writing one I'm a little out of my element. What say ye?

[Ravenlocks01]

Make sure to tell us who your protagonist is (often including an adjective that indicates his flaw and suggests what his arc will be) and include his overriding external goal and the stakes.

In addition, a good logline includes that certain je ne sais quoi that hooks a reader and makes them want to read your script.

[AaronB]

I'm afraid my current effort is a bit flat:

"A young Dane, left for dead during the first Viking raid of the island monastery on Iona in 795, survives, becomes steeped in Irish culture of the high middle ages, and then must choose his path when the raiders return in 802."

[SimonSays]

Ouch!

[maestrowork]

Fundamental: should present the protagonist(s), the problem, and the story.

But a good logline is a marketing tool: it must entice the buyers. That's why copy writers are better with that than writers. Copy writers are trained to write marketing blurbs.

With your logline, there are a few problems. Yes, you presented us with the protagonist and the problem. But the story is sketchy. What path? What is the story? Also, it has too many unnecessary details such as the precise dates.

A slight edit would yield:

"A young Dane survives the first Viking raid of a monastery on the island Iona, becomes steeped in Irish culture of the high middle ages, and must choose his destiny when the raiders return."

It's still somewhat flat, but you get the idea...

[mwc scribe]

Focus on the goal the protag is trying to achieve during the second act.
_

[Writing Again]

Using a principle I learned somewhere called "When in doubt up the stakes" I would consider this as a logline.

Left behind during a raid on Iona, a young man has two children by his Irish wife, when his Viking father shows up to rescue him.

I may be wrong but I think the story conflict is implicit.

[dpaterso]

To be honest I just don't know what makes a good logline -- but if, after reading one, I want to know what happens to the characters, then I think it's passed the test.

A young Dane, left for dead during the first Viking raid of the island monastery on Iona in 795, survives, becomes steeped in Irish culture of the high middle ages, and then must choose his path when the raiders return in 802.

There's some ambiguity here in that I don't know if the Dane is one of the Vikings (which is a loose label that covers raiders from several countries) or if he's some traveling Danish monk who happens to be on Iona when the Vikings come swarming ashore.

If yes then maybe something like...

A young Viking warrior, left for dead after a raid on the Iona monastery in the Dark Ages, is nursed back to health, accepted by the islanders and marries a Celtic girl. When the raiders return he must choose between his blood kin and the people he has learned to love.

Shrug, just an idea, and maybe it's a tad too long. But I think it's less clinical which is a problem your original logline suffers from.

I'm not allergic to any of these other suggestions either. Except for "Ouch!" which didn't entice me to read on.

-Derek
-----------------------My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[AaronB]

My Dane is a Viking. My original:

"A young Dane, left for dead during the first Viking raid of the island monastery on Iona in 795, survives, becomes steeped in Irish culture of the high middle ages, and then must choose his path when the raiders return in 802."

Could be reworked to something like:

"A young Viking, left for dead during the first raid on the monastery on Iona, survives, comes to love the people of the island, but much choose a side when his countrymen strike again."

Of course, you can go too far in this reworking thing. For example, I could go with this:

"Luke Skywalker, a restless young farmboy, searches for the legacy of his lost father and gets caught up in an interstellar rebellion."

Not so good, I think.

[maestrowork]

But...

"Luke Swordwielder, a restless young Viking, searches for the legacy of his lost father and gets caught up in a genocide war, torn between the people he loves and his next of kin."

[AaronB]

That "...torn between the people he loves and his next of kin" bit is quite good. I think I may use something like that.

I see that we need to paint the picture vividly.

[joecalabre]

I would focus on the problem your hero faces (choosing) and less on the details that got him there. I assume that there is love involved and I would keep it short.

I would try something like...

795 AD: Battle of Iona. When stranded among his enemies for nearly a decade, a young Viking much choose between Norse loyalty and Celtic love when his countrymen strike again.

My two cents.

[AaronB]

I think I'm onto something. How's this?

"Having been stranded among his victims for years by a rival's treachery, a young Viking must choose between his friends and his countrymen when the Vikings strike again."

[Ravenlocks01]

"Left behind during a raid on Iona, a young man has two children by his Irish wife, when his Viking father shows up to rescue him."
This is my favorite so far. The stakes are clear and high. However, I'm still not seeing a concrete goal for the protag. Even in this one, he doesn't take action but rather reacts to events.



Except for "Ouch!" which didn't entice me to read on.
You're in luck, Derek, since that was the end of Simon's post.

:D

[Optimus Maximus]

I like Joe's the best.

It's vivid, poetic, and shows the protag as being active rather than reactive.

[Ravenlocks01]

He's still reactive. All he has to do is choose. His countrymen are the ones taking the action: returning and striking.

I'm still waiting for a concrete goal to drive the protagonist's actions throughout the script.

[AaronB]

I'm still waiting for a concrete goal to drive the protagonist's actions throughout the script.

[Optimus Maximus]

Hate to disagree over this minor point, Raven, but just because the protag isn't the initiator of the situation doesn't mean that is somehow bad or that the protag is somehow weak simply because he is "reactive."

Think of John McClain in Die Hards 1-3. He never initiates the situation, but he takes action. Granted, that may be in reaction to events/situations which he has not caused, but the action he chooses to take is what drives the story.

The same could be the case here. The protag is unwillingly and unwittingly thrown into an aversive situation, and must act (though it is, technically, a reaction) to overcome the situation. His action is what drives the story.

And, that's not a bad thing.

[AaronB]

Think of John McClain in Die Hards 1-3.

[dpaterso]

I liked the latter half of Joe's take on things, although "stranded among his enemies for nearly a decade" invites a huge question: if they're his enemies then why aren't they killing him? Not the kind of dilemna I'd want readers to sit and puzzle over, but that's just me, shrug.

And there was no "Battle of Iona" -- just a very famous Viking raid on the monastery in which the monks were slaughtered. Always check up on your history! ;)

-Derek
-----------------------My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[AaronB]

And there was no "Battle of Iona" -- just a very famous Viking raid on the monastery in which the monks were slaughtered. Always check up on your history!

[joecalabre]

OK. It wasn't a full fledge battle, but the average reader wouldn't know that and it would give a bloody image using only one word. And if the Ionians put up even the smallest effort to defend themselves then It can be considered a battle. If you like, The Massacre at Iona would also work.

As for living with his enemies for a decade, yes it would bring questions and that hopefully would entice the reader to want to know more. That is it's purpose.

Remember... A logline isn't a telling of the complete story, but hints, innuendos and enticements to get the reader to want more. It's a fine balance between telling what it's about and getting them interested. It's a purposeful tease.

[maestrowork]

I don't like the word "stranded" though, as if he didn't want to be there. Well, then, there wouldn't be any conflict, would there?

I do like the enemy (surrogate family) vs. kin (real family) angle. Pretty high stakes.

[AaronB]

I do like the enemy (surrogate family) vs. kin (real family) angle. Pretty high stakes.

[maestrowork]

The thing is, you have to present the conflict, the stakes. What is holding him back? He could either just go back with the Vikings. Is it love (very strong motivation)? Duty? Simply presenting the situations is not enough. You have to present the stakes. Why does the hero have a hard time choosing?

[dpaterso]

Yeah, that's what I said. I just "showed" instead "telling" ;)

What was the last Viking epic? Crighton's 13th Warrior? * Are we due another one? Could this be it???

* yes I know the book was Eaters of the Dead, thanks -- just thought I'd say it before someone nitpicks.

-Derek
-----------------------My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[AaronB]

Why does the hero have a hard time choosing?

[maestrowork]

his people or civilization

There you have it. It's the dilemma we want. The bottomline is: "he must choose between x and y" is not a strong enough statement. If his dilemma is family vs. civilization, then it should be in your tagline, IMHO.

[AaronB]

his people or civilization

It doesn't sound particularly compelling that way, does it.

I agree that having the fundamental dilemma in the logline is the right idea, though.

[Ravenlocks01]

I think you have to present the stakes in terms of specific people to make them more compelling. Perhaps the monk who nurses him back to health and with whom he bonds vs. his father or his old best friend or someone else he was close to among the Danes. These individuals in their way would represent civilization vs. his people.

I should point out that the Vikings really weren't entirely the barbarians they're often portrayed as. The Icelandic sagas show that they had an elaborate system of law (and, um, yeah, blood vengeance, which was a duty). They're always taking each other to court. They did like to go raiding, though.

[AaronB]

I should point out that the Vikings really weren't entirely the barbarians they're often portrayed as.

That's certainly true, if we're speaking broadly of the Scandinavians of that day. They were known to be rather cleaner than the denizens of England, Ireland, and Scotland, being in the habit of bathing weekly. They also had extremely well-developed metalwork.

Still, regardless of how sophisticated they were, the question in my narrow frame remains akin to 'Would you prefer the Chalice of Ardagh to remain the Chalice of Ardagh*, or would you prefer it to be melted into bullion?' The guys in the boats on that particular occasion were certainly barbaric, if not actually barbarians.

<span style="font-size:xx-small;">And folks, I only mentioned the Chalice of Ardagh by way of illustration. I know it doesn't have anything to do with Iona.</span>

[nikdun]

I would show more of the character of the young man, what is he like at the start of he story?

Reckless, impulsive, prone to anger what?

Then... What does he want? His goal. Nail it exactly so we can see it. Know when it's got/

Then show how the struggle changes him.

If he starts reckless I guess he needs to finish in command and in control.

Perhaps he's prone to anger at first - and learns self assurance.

The story is the hero's goal and mainly about his struggle.

Best wishes,

Nick Dunning
Head of Development
************************
[b]http://www.screenwriting-on-the-net.com</>
R.A.D.A (Dip Hons)
N.P.A.
Hollywood Film Institute
************************

[AaronB]

I would show more of the character of the young man, what is he like at the start of he story? Reckless, impulsive, prone to anger what?

All of these, springing out of his hunger and his immaturity. "Reckless" probably encapsulates it best.

Then... What does he want? His goal. Nail it exactly so we can see it.

He is desperate to prove himself. He is driven to meet a standard that tells him "You have succeeded...you are a man among men. Well done." Though his plans change with his circumstances, this drive is what fuels those plans constantly

Then show how the struggle changes him.

He learns that there is more than one standard by which men can be measured...and so is able to achieve his goal in the end, although not in the way he expected.

That yields me something like this:

"A reckless young Viking wages a personal war to prove himself through battle, abandonment, and revenge in medieval Iona."

[scripter1]

Just a knee jerk reaction and writing the first thing that pops into my head, maybe studying "The Last Samurai" will help you out a bit?

All discussion of whether it was a good film or not aside, I just think it has many of the same elements you are trying to bring out. Studying it (not just watching it) may help you understand your own story more and give you some ideas.
If you can find the REAL loglines too NOT ones made up by message boarders, then that will help.

I think you have the makings of a great story here. It sounds interesting to me.

Your last logline doesn't work though.
"A reckless young Viking wages a personal war to prove himself through battle, abandonment, and revenge in medieval Iona."

This one leaves out the antagonist and any character arc. It only tells the first half of you movie, the first 30 minutes. I really like the whole living with another culture/society and loving a "different" people aspect.

Why do the raiders come back to this specific place? What is there that they cannot have anywhere else? Just returning for bloodsport doesn't make much sense, especially if the monks put up a good fight, too much of a risk.

If the barbarians come back for a really strong reason and the protag has now changed his alliances that oppose that reason THEN you have conflict. He has two duties, his family and his new beliefs and his his old duties. He has to choose and either way it's hard.

Your logline needs to capture that struggle.

I like these lines the best.

"A young Viking warrior, left for dead after a raid on the Iona monastery in the Dark Ages, is nursed back to health, accepted by the islanders and marries a Celtic girl. When the raiders return he must choose between his blood kin and the people he has learned to love."

and

"795 AD: Battle of Iona. When stranded among his enemies for nearly a decade, a young Viking much choose between Norse loyalty and Celtic love when his countrymen strike again."

[maestrowork]

Internal struggles like "desperate to prove himself" is hard to express in a logline because people want to see what real "life and death" conflicts are in your story, key themes such as: glory, love, death, honor, betrayal, etc. So if you can externalize your character's internal conflict with the backdrop of Iona and the Vikings and the war, etc. you might have something there.

[AaronB]

So if you can externalize your character's internal conflict with the backdrop of Iona and the Vikings and the war, etc. you might have something there.

In reading through the apparently good but undeniably conflicting advice I'm getting, I have come to examine the core purpose of the logline. Why does it exist?

The logline is a marketing tool. Its purpose is to attract the reader's interest and make the reader want to read more. It seems to me, then, that the perfect logline should:

<UL><LI>summarize the central conflict</LI>
<LI>be short and punchy</LI>
<LI>be dynamic in voice rather than passive</LI>
<LI>leave the central conflict unresolved</LI>
</UL>

Would you change, add, or subtract any point in the above list?

[maestrowork]

Add: a character and a setting.

[AaronB]

I'll buy that.

[AaronB]

Okay, so now I'm here:

<UL><LI>summarize the central conflict</LI>

<LI>identify the protagonist and setting</LI>

<LI>be short and punchy</LI>

<LI>be dynamic in voice rather than passive</LI>

<LI>leave the central conflict unresolved</LI>
</UL>

Applying that to my story give me something like:

A young Viking's desperate desire to prove himself drives him to seek battle, face death, endure abandonment, hunger for revenge, and see himself and the world in a new way on medieval Iona.

Taking a more concrete approach yields:

Love for a woman sustains a young Viking across years and miles as he faces battle, a near-mortal wound, abandonment, a quest for revenge...and a final showdown with his fellow Vikings when they return to medieval Iona.

Thoughts?

[dpaterso]

Thoughts? As Simon said earlier: "Ouch!" You've overanalyzed to the point where I think you're hurting yourself. The vital ingredient missing from your analysis? Story.

If I've understood correctly the story is, a raiding Viking falls wounded, he isn't killed by his enemies who nurse him back to health, and by the time his fellow Vikings come back to shed more blood he's willing to try to stop them because of the kindness he received. Yes? If this is the story then neither of your modified loglines, which read more like shopping lists, happens to mention this. This unusual reversal of Viking attitude -- kill thy enemies, rape and pillage, die in battle! -- is the appeal your story has.

If I've read things wrong then ignore the above.

-Derek (sometimes writer of Viking-ish fiction)
-----------------------My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[maestrowork]

OK, using your list and dp's summary of what we gleaned from your story:

the central conflict - a choice between kindness/love of enemy, and loyalty to brutal blood-family (that's the externalized conflict based on the protag's internal conflict)
the protagonist and setting - young viking, Medieval Iona, two Viking-Iona wars
(short and punchy, active voice, leave suspense)

[AaronB]

This is much more difficult than I thought it was going to be.

[Ravenlocks01]

I would add "identify the stakes" to your list, Aaron.

[AaronB]

<UL><LI>summarize the central conflict</LI>
<LI>identify the protagonist and setting</LI>
<LI>be short and punchy</LI>
<LI>be dynamic in voice rather than passive</LI>
<LI>identify the stakes</LI>
<LI>leave the central conflict unresolved</LI>
</UL>

My list of requirements for a logline is growing longer than the logline. Does a good logline really do all these things, or am I crowding in too many requirements for a single design to accomplish?

[SimonSays]

A good logline should do all those things.

A good logline will identify your BIG IDEA and communicate theme, plot and character. It's helluva lot to do in 25 words.

Personally, I suck at loglines. But the more I do them, the better I get.

[maestrowork]

Maybe you should hire a copy writer for a day. :lol To summary your whole story in a enthralling way in 25 words is hard.

[Writing Again]

Hmmm...I'll take another try.

Stranded in Ireland for seven years a young Viking strives to protect his wife and her family from the outraged father he loves.

[AaronB]

Stranded in Ireland for seven years a young Viking strives to protect his wife and her family from the outraged father he loves.

That would work, if that were the story. Unfortunately it's not...but thanks for your effort on my behalf. Your story might be well worth the telling, too, come to think of it, but I'll leave that to you.

If your logline were adapted to my story, the result would be something like:

Stranded in Ireland for seven years, a young Viking strives to pursue the woman he loves and also defend the people who saved his life...but he cannot do both.

Also, "Ireland" doesn't really do justice to Iona. At the time, it was an island of (principally) Irishmen nestled right up against the Scottish shore. Neither fish nor fowl it was, so perhaps just saying "Ireland" is right for the logline.

[SimonSays]

Aaron

"strives to protect" is not very powerful

"must choose between" or "is caught between" is probably a better way to describe his dilemma

[AaronB]

Aaron

"strives to protect" is not very powerful

"must choose between" or "is caught between" is probably a better way to describe his dilemma

True...but "must choose between" or "is caught between" are passive, rather than active. If I select one of them, another board denizen will gig me on it. =]

This sort of thing is rarely done well by committee in any case, but I am getting lots of valuable input from the board, for which I am grateful.

[AaronB]

"A young Viking, left for dead during the first raid on Iona, is forced to choose between returning to life with the woman he loves and defending the helpless islanders when the Vikings come to murder, loot and burn once again."

[scripter1]

Shorten just a bit more.

A young Viking left for dead after the first attack on Iona must choose between the Ionaish woman he loves and his own people when they attack again.

[AaronB]

I'm sorry...the woman he loves is back in Denmark, now married to the Viking who tried to kill him (she's why the rival whacked him in the first place). There was nothing on Iona but a monastery in 795 (or in 2004, for that matter).

It's not your fault, but your logline doesn't describe my story. My fault for failing to adequately explain.

[joecalabre]

You have an intricate story that a logline can never fully explain. The goal here is to grab the attention of the reader and give the gist of your story. Keep it short and highlight the theme (choice between old and new life) and central plot (protecting his enemy).

I would say:

"A young Viking, betrayed and wounded during a massacre on a helpless monastery, must choose between the life and woman he loved or protecting those who saved his life when his Norsemen warriors return for another attack."

Your average reader doesn't know where or what Iona is and it will take too long to explain all that encompases around it in a logline. It could have happened anywhere and the theme and plot remains the same. He must choose between two things and eventually do what is right, both in his heart and mind.

my only problem is that it is still too long at about 8-10 words. If I had to, I would cut it down to:

"A Viking, wounded during a massacre on a monastery, must choose between the life he loved or protecting those who saved his life when his Norsemen warriors return."

Shorter and still maintains most of the theme and plot. I like the first one better though.

The feel, to me, should be similar in nature to Gladiator or Braveheart, which I think will suit it well.

That's my take on this.

[Writing Again]

Someday I hope to have this logline thing down to a science.

To say what a character has to decide between is apocryphal: Making decisions is what the primary character does from the first time we see them on screen until the final decision that creates the resolution. Each decision leads to the next crises, to pick out one decision over the others and call it "the decision" is to sidestep the issue.

We must expect more of the main character than that. We must expect the MC to attempt the difficult if not the impossible. The choice should be implicit in his goal in relation to the opposition.

This is a bit longish but perhaps it heads in the right direction.

Seven years after being betrayed and left for dead a Viking fights to protect his Irish saviors, defeat his rival, and retain the respect of his Viking comrades in order to sail home victorious.

[dpaterso]

So there's a betrayal angle! You didn't say! That's dramatic! And it warrants a mention since it's what kicks off the story and how the story (presumably) ends. I'd even venture to say it is the story, which deserves equal airtime with your protag's protecting the monks.

Re Iona -- if people don't know where it is then they can look it up! What everyone does know, or at least has a rough idea of, is the area over which the Vikings raided. Iona lies within this area so no further geography is required, you don't have to break it down further to Ireland, Scotland or wherever. But the name is important because it's the Iona monastery that gets raided and Iona's monks who feature prominently in the story, first as victims, then as friends, then as people who need your protag's protection. So I'd keep much of this as is.

Which leads me to suggest:

A Viking warrior is betrayed and left for dead after a raid on the Iona monastery in 795 A.D. Nursed back to health by monks, he vows to protect them against further Viking raids while he plans bloody revenge upon his rival, who has usurped his position and his wife.

...and if I've guessed right re his position/rank, maybe you might consider describing him as "A Viking leader" instead of just "A Viking warrior" ?

Hope it helps rather than confuses.

-Derek
-----------------------My Web Page - naked women, bestial sex, and whopping big lies. (http://hometown.aol.co.uk/DPaterson57)

[AaronB]

Is it possible that the difficulty of boiling this story down into a logline is an indication that the story is weak?

[maestrowork]

It could be. It could point to the weakness of your central conflict and stakes. If you find "must choose between this and that" weak, then perhaps the stakes are not high enough. You must, however, dig deeper and ask, "WHY is it so important that he must choose?" What and where is the point of no return?

[AaronB]

THEODEN: I will not risk open war.

ARAGORN: Open war is upon you, whether you would risk it or not!

That's where my Hero stands. The Vikings are coming. Trygve Ingvarsson can rejoin them, fight against them, or flee from them, but they will not permit him to ignore them.

Being forced into choices isn't a bad thing, storywise. It's usually how real-life heroes are made. Besides, the real reason he's being forced to face his fellow Danes once again is because I decided he would...and if you're a character in a story, there's no getting around the Author.

[Ravenlocks01]

If someone asks you what your script is about, you have to be able to give them a short and sweet answer. "It's about..."

I firmly believe that most good stories boil down to one sentence that captures what's unique and interesting about them.

[AaronB]

It's about a Viking that gets stranded with monks.

...but that's a lousy logline.

It's about a Viking who gets stabbed in the back, and his former victims nurse him back to health and screw up all his assumptions about life.

...but that doesn't tell the whole story.

My vision isn't quite an epic one, it's true; but under these circumstances, Ben-Hur would never have made it past the reader.

"Row well...and live!"

[scripter1]

Your story is about choosing between two loyalties.
The family group you were born into OR the group you've chosen to love. (and it doesn't really matter how you ended up there.)

Take the monks out, take out everything else and THAT ^ is your most basic story. You could add all kinds of things into that basic theme, monks, black, white, Christians, Atheists,.......gorillas,
NONE of which change the theme.

State the theme, plug in the protag, antag and stakes, and you should be in pretty good shape.
THEN grab a thesaurus and hunt for shorter words that say the same thing.

Sorry Aaron, I was getting a bit snippy there.
Yes, this kind of trouble does mean that your story is flawed in some way. The good news is you recognize that and now you can fix it. Make sure you are using your strong thematic idea as the backbone for your story and not all the other little ideas. You seem to be getting a little overwhelmed and ahead of your self. You've got to pick out the two or three key elements of your story and focus on them. But NOT MORE then 3!!!!!

Hmm, another way to come at this logline is to consider each of the three acts. Try giving us just a hint (the MAJOR points) of each act.

[AaronB]

I've just received the best advice yet on this topic from a friend of mine, who I've been bugging via e-mail about my logline issues.

He says "Quit whining and write."

Point taken.

[scripter1]

EXCELLENT advice.
Make sure to get your friend a nice gift for Christmas.

[Ravenlocks01]

My vision isn't quite an epic one, it's true; but under these circumstances, Ben-Hur would never have made it past the reader.
Ben-Hur was adapted from a novel. It would never have been a spec like the one you're trying to write.

The whole idea behind the "It's about..." sentence is that it should be what you tell people when you want them to say, "Wow, I wanna see that." Sure, you can have any number of very blah "It's about..." sentences that make people say, "Okay, I'll skip that one."

[AaronB]

...I'm busy rewriting Act 3!