Taboo subjects in novels

aruna · Nov 8, 2006

A post yesterday in Miss Snark's blog ( http://misssnark.blogspot.com/) (if somebody knows how to link to a single post on the blog, please do so! It's titled "Auto-no") got me thinking.
Miss Snark says that she and several if not most agents have subjects they won't touch: dead children, child abuse, torture and so on.

I never realised this. Almost all of my books deal with one or the other of those taboos:

Book one: a mother whose two babies are killed, a third kidnapped
Book two: child prostitution (but nothing graphic)
Book three: nothing really, but a child loses her mother in a terrible accident
Book four: (unpublished) child abuse (off page)
Book five: (about to go out to editors in a week or two) mass murder of women and chidren, though mostly off page

It's not that I'm a negative person but I like to work through these dark and tough subjects; in all cases, my protags come out stronger on the other side. I do have my own taboo subjects: torture would be one, and kinky sex. In fact, I NEED to write about these things.

Now I'm a bit concerned. If agents don't like these things, does it mewan that readers don't either?
And what about war, a perennial subject for novels? People die, children die - how to deal with it sensitively? In my case, the deaths.abuse is all off the page, but they remain strong themes in all the books.

Do you deal with the heavy stuff, or do you keep it light? And why?

sammyig · Nov 8, 2006

In my WIP there is some torture. Most of it is offpage, and I try to tone down my descriptions of things. Which, at times, is difficult since I am a confirmed horror film fanatic and could easily go much too far.

I think that some things are easier to deal with than others. I've seen more evidence that it seems to be ok if a male is tortured in a book, but a female is a bit of a no no, and children- well, it is simply not a good idea.

I think that in anything, if you go too far in your descriptions, you'll end up with a very small publishing house- if you get published at all. Though recently, I've read more in the horror genre that some things that would be considered the taboo of the past are now used regularly. For some reason, in alot of horror being put out recently, there is alot of rape. I'm not sure why.

JimmyB27 · Nov 8, 2006

I think you may have misread the post. She wasn't saying that all agents hate all of these things and that if you include any you are doomed to failure.
She was saying that most agents have a particular subject that they find so...distasteful(for want of a better word) that they will not even look at a novel that includes it.
Maybe a particular agent was abused as a child, and can't bring themselves to look at any book with child abuse. Maybe they are a big animal lover, and won't look at anything with a dead dog by page 2.
It doesn't matter. The point is, there are always other agents.
I imagine that the same is true for readers, some will automatically be put off by a subject, while others will be put of by something entirely else.
Same as how some will read fantasy, and others will read romance, or neither...whatever.

SC Harrison · Nov 8, 2006

In my first (and only, so far) full-length ms I had a step-father who raped his 14 yo step-daughter, and then his 9 yo after that. But...I didn't expose the actual rapes themselves, just the aftermath, and gave only passing reference to the physical aspects of the violations.

I think many people (including me) don't want to visualize what happens to the child during the episode; the abstract is bad enough. Some things are just too gut-wrenching, imo.

Nickie · Nov 8, 2006

As for me, I only object to publishing porn (although I'm sure it would sell...) and faith-related novels (especially those about Muslim faith).
Normally, our publishing house accepts most genres and we are not shy of 'hot' subjects. In Europe, you can discuss child abuse, politics, mass murder, etc without any problem. What matters is that the novel is well-written and can catch the reader's attention.
As a matter of fact, I am going to accept the work of an Indian author, who writes about the colonial period and subjects that were (and perhaps still aren't) accepted in India. Still, the book is a great read and I'm sure lots of people would be interested in it.

Nickie

IrishScribbler · Nov 8, 2006

aruna said:
Do you deal with the heavy stuff, or do you keep it light? And why?

My WIP is about a young woman who self-mutilates. The opening scene is one in which she has just finished cutting herself with a pair of scissors. Yes, I describe the cuts. In a later scene, I describe her using a box cutter to cut herself at work because she's had a bad run-in with a snarky customer.

In my WIP, I just do it. This is what the story is about, and in the story I'm telling, I have to be graphic. I'm bringing this to the attention of readers so they know exactly how it is, and so those that are experiencing it realize they're not alone. It may sound cheesy and cliche, but that's how I feel. Especially since I didn't have something like this when I was going through it.

As for others, it depends on the story, I think. Fiction is so subjective. What's true for one author (or agent or publisher or reader) isn't true for others. One reader may pick up my WIP and claim it as the next great American novel (pshaw!). That reader may recommend it to a friend who can't get past the first scene without feeling queasy.

[Note: Impending cliche]

Above all, writers need to be true to themselves. I think, in many ways, fiction is an extension of yourself, so you need to portray yourself the way you want to be seen. If you have a story to tell, tell it.

*after-school special cheesy music and fade to black out*

Maprilynne · Nov 8, 2006

Aruna,
I think it is simply an indication that she is not the agent for you. You have a *great* agent and she/he'll find a publisher for whom it isn't taboo.
I've seen tons of books with exactly those elements in it. It has to be done well and not just be gratuitous, but it really can add to a story.
My book has torure, a child who is chased off a cliff by the antagonist, the equivalent of date rape, and a lot of blood . . . though, again, mostly off page. I think it really depends on how you do it.

Maprilynne

aruna · Nov 8, 2006

JimmyB27 said:
I think you may have misread the post. She wasn't saying that all agents hate all of these things and that if you include any you are doomed to failure.
.

No, I got the post all right, but it made me think about my own writing and how very dark most of it is, and how I really do skirt on the fringes of very taboo subvjects. The child prostitution one, for instance - it's a subject that I htink could very well put a lot of readers off, though I never thought of that at the time.

JimmyB27 · Nov 8, 2006

aruna said:
No, I got the post all right, but it made me think about my own writing and how very dark most of it is, and how I really do skirt on the fringes of very taboo subvjects. The child prostitution one, for instance - it's a subject that I htink could very well put a lot of readers off, though I never thought of that at the time.

Ok, in that case, I suggest you look at what's currently out there. Is anyone else selling stuff this dark? If the answer is yes, then there's clearly a market for it.

aruna · Nov 8, 2006

IrishScribbler said:
As for others, it depends on the story, I think. Fiction is so subjective. What's true for one author (or agent or publisher or reader) isn't true for others. One reader may pick up my WIP and claim it as the next great American novel (pshaw!). That reader may recommend it to a friend who can't get past the first scene without feeling queasy.

[Note: Impending cliche]

Above all, writers need to be true to themselves. I think, in many ways, fiction is an extension of yourself, so you need to portray yourself the way you want to be seen. If you have a story to tell, tell it.

*after-school special cheesy music and fade to black out*

Don;t forget the violins in the sky!

It's funny, really, becasue I'm someone who tends to be very optimistitc and about life. I think that's why I choose such subjects: to show no matter how bad it is, you CAN recover and emerge strong and whole.

aruna · Nov 8, 2006

Nickie said:
. In Europe, you can discuss child abuse, politics, mass murder, etc without any problem. What matters is that the novel is well-written and can catch the reader's attention.
As a matter of fact, I am going to accept the work of an Indian author, who writes about the colonial period and subjects that were (and perhaps still aren't) accepted in India. Still, the book is a great read and I'm sure lots of people would be interested in it.

Nickie

True, in fact I believe Europeans actually relish dark subjects! The French and the Germans certainly do.

Your Indian author sounds a lot like me! Are you sure it isn't?

aruna · Nov 8, 2006

I think the reason the post made me do a double take is because I got a mail from a British agent yesterday. I donl;t even remember querying them but it must have been long ago, as far back as May, since I've been querying ONLY American agents since June. I queried using their website form, so I have no record of sending it off. Must have been a spur of the moment thing.
I had only sent in the synopsis, no actual ms pages:

Thank you for contacting us through the *** website and for posting
your synopsis for WHITE NIGHT there. We had a good time reading and
discussing the outline for your novel but were concerned that it –
with its dark, Orwellian, cultish preoccupations – would be a very
difficult book to pitch to UK publishers. Although the story is an
imaginative and big one, we were not confident enough about how large
the market for it would be. It’s just so tough (as we’re sure you
know, being a published author) to break writers into this genre so an
agent needs to be completely passionate about the subject and context
from the outset. Although we were intrigued, the requisite passion
just wasn’t there.

CaroGirl · Nov 8, 2006

I don't believe that fear of agent rejection should dictate the subjects about which we want to write. I tackle a lot of topics in my writing, some of which might be considered by some "taboo". Many of my short stories include the death of a child. My WIP has scenes of drug use and lesbian sex. I just need to find an agent who's willing to take it, not change it to suit a specific agent.

Be true to yourself and your story, aruna, et al. If it's good, someone, somewhere, will accept it.

janetbellinger · Nov 8, 2006

I have premature ejaculation and masturbation in my novel and one publisher has mentioned there's too much erotic content. But dammit, that's the whole point of the book or part of it anyway.

KiwiChick · Nov 8, 2006

sammyig said:
In my WIP there is some torture. Most of it is offpage, and I try to tone down my descriptions of things. Which, at times, is difficult since I am a confirmed horror film fanatic and could easily go much too far.

I think that some things are easier to deal with than others. I've seen more evidence that it seems to be ok if a male is tortured in a book, but a female is a bit of a no no, and children- well, it is simply not a good idea.

I had a bit of a twinge reading Ms. Snark's blog - in one of my WIPs I have the torture of a child who happens to be a girl. It happens on screen, but it's pretty toned down. It's important to the story, and I guess it never occurred to me that it might be problematic.

KiwiChick

Southern_girl29 · Nov 8, 2006

I also read this blog and wondered about my own WIP. In it, my MC dog is killed and then later, she and her three-year-old daughter are run down and hurt by the person who has been stalking her. They recover, but I still wondered if I shouldn't have had the daughter get hurt.

IrishScribbler · Nov 8, 2006

aruna said:
Don;t forget the violins in the sky!

And the slow motion emotional hug at the end where the audience of Full House always said "Aaaaaawww." And, of course, the ballad over the closing credits.

TrainofThought · Nov 8, 2006

I can see subject matters not appealing to some agents. I believe an agent can’t completely detach themselves from personal preference. As a reader, I wouldn’t read certain subject matters. I can understand an agent, who has to sell your book to publishers, not wanting to promote uncomfortable topics.

That said, it doesn't mean your book isn't publishable. You just need to send to agents that have represented your subject matter.
My two cents. Below are additional links from AW regarding subject matter:

Subject: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36675&highlight=subject+matter
Ethical: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40083&highlight=subject+matter

Éclairer · Nov 8, 2006

aruna said:
Do you deal with the heavy stuff, or do you keep it light? And why?

My WIP is clean because I've been writing taboo for years and literally got sick of it (the therapy cleaned me out, lol) but the novel I wrote before this one was FULL of taboos because the book was about taboos.

I think one of the primary issues with sticky subject matter is that a lot of writers don't know how to approach it. I know I've read some books wherein there's sexual abuse, or disturbing content that doesn't make me too uncomfortable, like in A Streetcar Named Desire, and then there are others that I find repulsive. For instance I read a Nora Roberts book in which I read a rape scene that was clearly sensationalised. Taboo or just a really bad approach?

Sassenach · Nov 8, 2006

janetbellinger said:
I have premature ejaculation and masturbation in my novel and one publisher has mentioned there's too much erotic content. But dammit, that's the whole point of the book or part of it anyway.

Puhleeze tell me that I'm misreading this or you're not saying what you really mean.

Shadow_Ferret · Nov 8, 2006

Book three: nothing really, but a child loses her mother in a terrible accident

If this were true, then Bambi and nearly all Disney movies would never get made.

Carrie in PA · Nov 8, 2006

aruna said:
Do you deal with the heavy stuff, or do you keep it light? And why?

I can't/don't/won't write about bad things happening to children. I honestly think a big part of that is superstition.

I can do mostly anything else that interests me, taboo or not.

TwentyFour · Nov 8, 2006

My WIP deals with boyfriend abuse, a father who molests his teen daughter, and drugs. I'm not sure why some would shy away from such things? It may be good to live in the HEA world, but we don't live in one...things should be realistic.

TwentyFour · Nov 8, 2006

The link to the blog is http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8115089&postID=116290901339811241&isPopup=true I believe.

TwentyFour · Nov 8, 2006

But that only gives you the comments.

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