I can now understand why fantasy...

Silverhand · Nov 3, 2006

Hey everyone,

I can now understand why fantasy is such a small market. I was in my Border's this morning and talking with its GM about my own up and coming release.

The subject eventually switched to the Harry Potter series. Mid way through our discussion, she informed me that fantasy novels which include romance, YA, historical, etc etc are not considered true "fantasy" novels. She told me point blank that Harry Potter did not fall under the fantasy category--and that it was YA instead.

Uh...say what? Harry Potter may take place in modern England, but it certainly has friggin elves, fairies, dragons, wizards, a dark lord, and other fantastical themes. And, I understand that it is for a YA audience. That still does not change the fact that it is fantasy.

To put this in perspective, the Harry Potter series has sold somewhere along the lines of 100 million copies world wide.

I mean if, at the drop of a dime, publishers can take away fantasies from the fantasy marketplace and inject them into romance or YA, then of course our numbers suck. What other novels do not qualify? Eragon? Eldest? Roman Fantasy? what other numbers are we losing to different genres?

discuss...

veinglory · Nov 3, 2006

I think cause and effect is the other way around. Books likely to appeal across audiences are shelved in a more general area to catch browsers who wouldn't go to the fantasy aisle. See: magical realism etc. This, of course, then contributes to a self-fulfilling
prophecy.

Somewhat relevant blog discussion here: http://madwriter.livejournal.com/420140.html

dclary · Nov 3, 2006

By bookstore regulations, only books with cover art by Vallejo and his followers can qualify as Fantasy, unless grandfathered in during the pre-Vallejo era.

FennelGiraffe · Nov 3, 2006

Silverhand said:
She told me point blank that Harry Potter did not fall under the fantasy category--and that it was YA instead.

Uh...say what? Harry Potter may take place in modern England, but it certainly has friggin elves, fairies, dragons, wizards, a dark lord, and other fantastical themes. And, I understand that it is for a YA audience. That still does not change the fact that it is fantasy.

The problem with Harry Potter is that they have to choose between shelving it in the Fantasy section or the YA section. If it was in the Fantasy section, the clueless type of parents wouldn't know it was a kids' book. There's a lot of other fantasies in YA, as well. It would help if they would break YA out by genre, but I guess YA isn't large enough to make that necessary.

Higgins · Nov 3, 2006

These days

Silverhand said:
Hey everyone,

I can now understand why fantasy is such a small market. I was in my Border's this morning and talking with its GM about my own up and coming release.

The subject eventually switched to the Harry Potter series. Mid way through our discussion, she informed me that fantasy novels which include romance, YA, historical, etc etc are not considered true "fantasy" novels. She told me point blank that Harry Potter did not fall under the fantasy category--and that it was YA instead.

Uh...say what? Harry Potter may take place in modern England, but it certainly has friggin elves, fairies, dragons, wizards, a dark lord, and other fantastical themes. And, I understand that it is for a YA audience. That still does not change the fact that it is fantasy.

To put this in perspective, the Harry Potter series has sold somewhere along the lines of 100 million copies world wide.

I mean if, at the drop of a dime, publishers can take away fantasies from the fantasy marketplace and inject them into romance or YA, then of course our numbers suck. What other novels do not qualify? Eragon? Eldest? Roman Fantasy? what other numbers are we losing to different genres?

discuss...

I think fantasy is becoming an accepted component of many genres. Certainly it has always been a big part of the YA supergenre.

Summonere · Nov 3, 2006

Books are shelved where they will sell.

Euan H. · Nov 3, 2006

'fantasy' (element of a book) does not necessarily equal 'fantasy' (marketing category)

Silverhand · Nov 4, 2006

I know the marketing side of products well

The problem of course is that once you start removing products from a product line...then your numbers will be wildly skewed.

In this case, Harry Potter has sold around 100 million copies. That would take fantasy from a niche market into the mainstream. It would move fantasy from a 3-5% market share into 15%+. Just think about that for a second...one book included in the genre it should be...would take fantasy and make it 3rd largets fiction market.

J. Weiland · Nov 4, 2006

Couldn't Harry Potter just be 'Young Adult Fantasy'? There. Problem solved.

Nateskate · Nov 4, 2006

Good Point

When I looked for G.P Taylor books, I was embarrassed when the B&N took into the YA section of the store. The Shadowmancer was on the Best Sellers list.

I really do think that when you say you're writing a fantasy, there's an identity crises thing that takes place. I consider a good Fairy Tale a fantasy.

ChaosTitan · Nov 4, 2006

When a book crosses genres, the strongest component of a book determines where it is placed on bookstore shelves. That's why any book that is romance goes into romance, be it contemporary, historical, urban fantasy, or suspense. If a book is Young Adult, it goes into YA, regardless of being fantasy, contemporary, SF, mystery, horror, or historical. You can go to those two sections and be sure that the book has romance, or that the book is YA.

Fantasy has been a strong-selling genre for decades, long before Harry Potter, and it will continue to sell long after HP is relegated to the dusty bargain bins in the YA department.

Euan H. · Nov 4, 2006

This has been discussed before--albeit indirectly. The idea of 'fantasy' being a product line is IMO a little off. Genre boundaries aren't clearly defined; they're fuzzy, and as such, defining works best though exemplars and not through boundaries. Sure, Harry Potter has elements of fantasy in it, but that doesn't mean it belongs in the fantasy section of the bookstore.

What you're saying about it taking fantasy into the mainstream is also off, IMO. Fantastic elements are mainstream. Right now. What about the Plot against America? That's alternate history--about as genre as you can get. Or Fatherland?

Also, what about paranormal romance? Books like this one, from dragonjax here at AW. (You should buy it. It's good.) Should they be classed as romance or fantasy?

Like chaostitan said, a genre category refers to the strongest element of a book, and it works through being more/less like the categorical genre member than looking at elements. In the case of HP, it's a YA book (age of protagonist, setting etc.), but with magical trappings. So it belongs in the YA section.

evangoer · Nov 4, 2006

I think of genres as "tags" -- they're like those little keywords thatflickr and other websites use to categorize objects. A single book could be tagged as "fantasy" and "YA". Or "urban fantasy", "steampunk", and "horror". A genre is just a handy little word to help audiences find books they might like.

However, unlike bits of data on a web site, a book in a physical bookstore usually only sits on one shelf. And as Summonere says above, books are shelved where they will sell. I'm sure Ms. Rowling is very happy that the marketing folks chose the right shelf for her book.

veinglory · Nov 4, 2006

They actually could cross-shelve books where multiples are kept in stock...

evangoer · Nov 4, 2006

Oh, sure, and I'm sure I've seen this in stores. But this only would make sense for certain titles. Cross-shelving *every* book across its possible categories just wouldn't scale.

Euan H. · Nov 4, 2006

Unless you had some kind of multidimensional shelving thing going on...

Silverhand · Nov 6, 2006

J. Weiland said:
Couldn't Harry Potter just be 'Young Adult Fantasy'? There. Problem solved.

Yea, that is fine with me. I am not against having multi-genre titles. The problem arises on to which platform records the sale. In this instance, HP goes under YA, and the fantasy platform loses out.

Euan,

My answer would strictly be in a sales and marketing sense.

Let me try to explain my take on how much of a disservice our marketing friends do the fantasy product line. Of course, bear with me as I am a no one in the book industry.

Say you owned a business and had concrete numbers that X category outsells every other category by 30%, and that Y catgory pulls a very stable, yet small market percentage.

Now, you recieve a new product that has both X and Y elements, and if marketed properly would reach both the X and the Y demographic. What would you choose? As a smart business person you would choose X simply based off the larger demographic, right? Okay that is reasonable. But, lets say you record all your sales of a dual product under only 1 label. What is the side effect? The side effect is that a product which may have done well in either...and should be consider a source of sales for both....is only being reflected on one side of the books.

So, in this instance, I will use romance as a medium. Romance is known to sell the most fiction titles--something like 45%+. Fantasy is known to be a very stable market with loyal fans...but it only captures a small market percentage. (5%) Now lets say a romantic fantasy comes out and sells 20 million copies. How do both of these markets reflect the change? Well, romance looks like it is just going about its business...expanding and contracting based on quality supply and demand. However, the fantasy market stays stagnant...because those sales which the market is rightfully do are removed. What we truly could be seeing here is romance, in truth, only capturing 35% of the market...while fantasy is actually garnering 25%. Now, if that was the case...more agents...more publishers...and more marketing dollars being spent. In my opinion it is a vicous cycle. If the big boys can pick and choose what fantasy titles are really "romantic fantasy", then the numnbers would be so unaccurate that it actually HURTS the entire fantasy community. Imagine for just one second if "fantasy" did not only sell 5% of all books...but instead was the 2nd or 3rd largest market. It would change how fantasy authors are percieved in general...and take us out of a niche market into what is considered by many to be mainstream.

I also want to point out one more thing, since I directly faced what I am talking about. Before I actually sold my book...I marketed it to publishers as an epic high fantasy. Somehow during all that work...I finally sold my mss as a somewhat christian action/adventure novel. This, of course, means that my high fantasy will not count its numbers with the fantasy market, instead joining the christian market. (Assuming I sell for then 50 copies

)

I guess my point of all this is: If the sellers dont adjust their mindset..then how do we even know IF a romantic fantasy would sell or not as a traditional fantasy rather then a romance?

Euan H. · Nov 6, 2006

Silverhand said:
... Romance is known to sell the most fiction titles--something like 45%+. Fantasy is known to be a very stable market with loyal fans...but it only captures a small market percentage. (5%) Now lets say a romantic fantasy comes out and sells 20 million copies. ... What we truly could be seeing here is romance, in truth, only capturing 35% of the market...while fantasy is actually garnering 25%.

Um, not really. By subtracting the romantic fantasy sales from the romance genre, you're implicitly stating that that romantic fantasy is a fantasy and not a romance.

So, sure, your calculations work if you assume that any work with a fantasy element should be shelved as 'fantasy'. But that's not a reasonable assumption to make, and so your %s don't work.

Is HP fantasy? Well, it has fantasy elements, but it's not really 'fantasy' in the sense that it should be shelved under the 'fantasy' section in the bookstore. It has more in common with other YA fiction than it does with typical fantasy, so that's where it's shelved. (Usually.)

The Plot against America is alternate history, but do you really think that people who read and enjoyed it are going to enjoy the 1632 novels by Eric Flint? I doubt it.

It would change how fantasy authors are percieved in general...and take us out of a niche market into what is considered by many to be mainstream.

Yabbut, when you say 'fantasy' authors, you mean people who write epic or high fantasy, don'tcha? And books written by those people are not really the same thing at all to Harry Potter, are they?

If the sellers dont adjust their mindset..then how do we even know IF a romantic fantasy would sell or not as a traditional fantasy rather then a romance?

All depends on what you mean by 'romantic fantasy'. Do you mean a high fantasy with a romance? (There's lots of those. Every fricken' farmboy has to marry a Princess...) Or do you mean a romance set in a fantasy world? (Can't say I've read any) Or do you mean a romance with fantastic elements? (Paranormal romance)

Silverhand · Nov 7, 2006

Euan,

I am not saying necessarily subtracting from one genre and adding to another. I think that a romantic comedy falls under BOTH categories...and thus should either be relfected on both sides...or neither since it cannot be truly categorized. In that case it should fall under multi-genra literature with a romance theme. As it stands now, it falls under romance and only romance.

No, my assumption is not that it must fall under fantasy and only fantasy. Like I said before, the numbers are being skewed. Because of the size of a given market. books that may be more history then romance, are being given to romance. Books that are more fantasy then YA, are being given to YA. Why, because those markets look more saleable. Why do they look more saleable? Because sells keep changing the true definition of books and feeding other genre titles into them.

There is a big difference between a romance with fantasy features...and a romantic fantasy that is set in another world or even this one...using made up creatures...having magic everywhere. One is a fantasy with romantic themes...the other is a romance with fantastic themes. Again though...both of these fall until multi-genre.

As to HP. I completely disagree with you, but that is ok...we all have our opinions. Harry Potter is a fantasy is the grandest sense. It has a Dark Lord and is epic, it has magic and wizards, it is about the coming of age of a hero (only 95% of all fantasy uses that), etc etc. Now, it MAY or may not be written for young adults, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a true epic fantasy novel. The only reason we are arguing between the fact, is because someone said, "This would sell better to a larger market, so lets sell it as YA and NOT a traditional fantasy." Saying that, they were obviously right...it has worked very well as a YA novel. But, that STILL doesn't change the fact that it is a true fantasy novel that should be reflected in fantasy sales.

C.bronco · Nov 7, 2006

J. Weiland said:

Couldn't Harry Potter just be 'Young Adult Fantasy'? There. Problem solved.

Click to expand...

That would make sense, but when pitching a book you have to pick the one genre that fits best. That probably carries over to marketing and shelving.

J. Weiland · Nov 7, 2006

C.bronco said:
That would make sense, but when pitching a book you have to pick the one genre that fits best. That probably carries over to marketing and shelving.

I admit to being a tad ironic when I wrote that.

RTH · Nov 7, 2006

Even with LOTR & Harry Potter being big hits, fantasy is still considered "weird" by a lot of people, who'll probably avoid the fantasy/sci-fi aisle for that reason. If you stick those books with fantastic elements in other places, I imagine you're more likely to attract the eyes of those types of folks. Maybe that's why??? :Shrug:

Cheers
RT Hogg

Cathy C · Nov 7, 2006

This is actually something that was discussed in several panels at the World Fantasy convention this past weekend in Austin, TX. Where to fit the cross-genre books, as well as what makes a book a YA were major issues, because so many early writers fell into multiple genres too: fantasy, horror and SF. This is the centennial of the birth of Robert E. Howard (creator of Conan, as well as one of the staples of the Cthulu mythos.) What makes a fantasy a fantasy? What makes a book a YA versus an adult? Is there an age limit, or is it by content? What is "taboo" in YA?

Several editors, both large and small press, spoke up regarding the reasons for shelving and the elements of YA. Naturally, they discussed cross-genre, from paranormal romance, to fantasy/SF crosses (Dragons of Pern, for example) and all points in between. Overall, everyone agreed that the editor usually makes the determination at the time of purchase, based on elements that resonate strongest with them. Marketing might suggest otherwise, based on what's "hot" in the marketplace, but the editor can (and sometimes does) override that. As others here have said, a lot depends on how many books they think they can sell in a given location. YA is a big market--close to romance in sales, so if they can fit it in there, cool. But adults WITHOUT children seldom venture there unless with a specific purpose, so things will sometimes get moved into mainstream if it appears that adults will likewise enjoy it (such as The Thief Lord by Funke, or HP.)

Every time someone gave an example of what is "taboo" in YA, an audience member would raise a hand to discount it. It got all the way up to beastiality sex for the under-18 set before the panelists gave up and stuck with the "protagonist's age" theory. :ROFL:

There are more horror readers perusing the fantasy aisles of late, and I posted in the horror forum that Fangoria magazine just did a piece on paranormal romance called "Romance Runs Red," suggesting to horror readers that they're missing out by not stepping across the aisle to give these a try. Of course, that just confuses the poor bookstore owners even more. I'm seeing more cross-shelving if the EMPLOYEES think the book will sell to a different clientele. I've found our books in romance (the actual stated category) to fantasy to horror. It's a free-for-all right now, and I don't know that it will change anytime soon.

There weren't any definitive answers at World Fantasy--just the acknowledgment of the issue and a shaking of heads in confusion. But stay tuned. Maybe something will come out of the discussions, since a number of editors were in attendance.

Pthom · Nov 7, 2006

Or genre categories could be entirely ignored, such as happens in my local library, and just shelve books by author's last name. I find that method particularly inconvenient.

civilian chic · Nov 7, 2006

So, knowing the tendency of publishers and bookstore owners to shelve things under the category that will sell the most titles... and who can blame them?... Can't you use that to your advantage? Write for multiple genres (while pitching to a single genre of course) but know that they have to put those books somewhere. Genre-crossing is fine, but categories are necessary.

Unless your goal is changing the system--and Clinton couldn't revamp health care... systems are hard to change-- your focus should be on knowing the system and using it to your advantage.

YA tends to trump all other genre's in my (vicarious) experience, anyway. If the protagonist is under the age of 18, YA eats it up. Fantasy, romance, historical fiction... it's all YA. That's the system.

I can now understand why fantasy...

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