getting laid

What? I drug my cat. Catnip is cheap.

I have the lay and lie thing ok, but I'll admit, I could mistakenly write she laid on the bed for hours. A lot of it has to do with what sounds normal and that has to do with what you have heard all your life. I wasn't born at Oxford so my grammar might be a bit askew.

And, yeah, I was hoping for an invite.

So, after the installer laid the carpet down, it looked so nice he decided to lay down upon it ? Perfectly clear.

Thanks for the rant. I hate to use those words because they are such a pain.

what a let down! sheesh
I was expecting a great story!

TeddyG said:

what a let down! sheesh
I was expecting a great story!

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And there lies the fallacy of expectation.


ETA: Notice how I used lies to construct a parable which lays between laid and lying.

There's correct grammar, which is a wonderful and useful thing, but there's also what sounds goodand what reads good, both of which are things I'm much more interested in.

If the phrase "he drug the cat across the lawn" works better in whatever context, I'm going to use it. I'm aware that the word should be "dragged," but I don't much care. Similarly, I'll misuse "lay, lie, laid."

I will be aware of my misuse, and I'll do it for the same reason that I don't always write in complete sentences: it sounds better.

This is probably why I'm a fiction writer and not a Way-Too-Stiff Newspaper writer.

KiwiChick said:

I think you mean she got laid on the bed for hours. Though probably only in a B-grade romance.

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Not within my experience. He got laid. She just lay there anoid.

Microsoft has it wrong!

KiwiChick said:

Well I got you to look, didn't I? Okay, this is probably better in the grammar forum, but I expect the people who hang out there don't need to read it... (Apologies to the person/people who made the mistake, but it is pretty funny.)/end rant. KiwiChick

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Word has a tendency to suggest the incorrect form. I've tried to use lain and lay in proper use many times, only to have those annoying red underlines appear.

Nice post, and perfectly appropriate.

JPS

PeeDee said:

I will be aware of my misuse, and I'll do it for the same reason that I don't always write in complete sentences: it sounds better.

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Know the rules you are breaking. It is ignorance that causes mistakes.

Gee, PeeDee, I never realized you were such a rebel.

KiwiChick said:

In dialogue I might misuse such words

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You can (or at least should) get away with anything in dialog (providing it is in character and appropriately delivered). Narration should follow the rules of language...unless you know the rules you are breaking.

It bugs me to see slang and profanity (among other things) in narration...unless it is first person narration but then it is in character.

Dang. How can you learn to write by the rules when there are always exceptions? There is probably a rule for that.

KiwiChick said:

Don't even get me started on Word's grammar check!

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Word's grammar check blows chunks.

PeeDee said:

There's correct grammar, which is a wonderful and useful thing, but there's also what sounds goodand what reads good, both of which are things I'm much more interested in.

If the phrase "he drug the cat across the lawn" works better in whatever context, I'm going to use it. I'm aware that the word should be "dragged," but I don't much care. Similarly, I'll misuse "lay, lie, laid."

I will be aware of my misuse, and I'll do it for the same reason that I don't always write in complete sentences: it sounds better.

This is probably why I'm a fiction writer and not a Way-Too-Stiff Newspaper writer.

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I think I love you Pee Dee. Have my fictional babies, won't you?

KiwiChick said:

In dialogue I might misuse such words if that's the way the character would speak. Similarly, if I were tight in to an uneducated character's thoughts I might misuse them. Elsewhere I wouldn't, because it's jarring to the reader who knows what word I should be using and I don't think I gain anything from the misuse. PeeDee, I'd be interested to hear what you think you gain from it. (Genuinely interested for craft reasons, not snarky if that's the way I came across.)

KiwiChick

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I think, at least for my own sake, that I would use an improper form for the exact reason that you say that you wouldn't - it's jarring to the reader. English, and particularly Americanized English, is full of colloquialisms and there is a large portion of the reading public that is more attuned to the improper form than they are to proper grammar. I'd believe that it's doubly true in a larger commercial reading population than in an intellectual or highly literary cross-section.

Amiton.

Amiton said:

I think, at least for my own sake, that I would use an improper form for the exact reason that you say that you wouldn't - it's jarring to the reader. English, and particularly Americanized English, is full of colloquialisms and there is a large portion of the reading public that is more attuned to the improper form than they are to proper grammar. I'd believe that it's doubly true in a larger commercial reading population than in an intellectual or highly literary cross-section.

Amiton.

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Ah, the future degradation of the masses. Yes, I do the same thing. Real-speak is appreciated by the mases, and isn't that who we are writing for? I began in Journalism (Agree with PEEDEE), and found it way too rigid. Even writing for magazines was difficult because of the correctness it required (though I tend to be long winded; that hurt too!). Creative writing is perfect for me. Providing a target group of people with something they can fly away to. I don't do literary fiction, so my characters can talk the way it's done on the street. Still, I marginally keep myself in check. Sometimes less is more.

JPS

At the end of the day, I use what works - not necessarily what is termed grammatically correct. This is creative writing after all. That said; writers should know the rules they are bending.

If I am the narrator, I want it to be grammatically correct. If a character is speaking or narrating or thinking, I want the words to be from that character and in character. But I like my well-spoken characters as well as I like my ill-spoken ones!

See, I saw "Kate Thornton" in a thread called "getting laid," and swooped in. I'm a Leo who likes long walks and poetry and the collective works of Michael Moorcock.

There was a recent thread on this in the Grammar forum.
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42984

PeeDee said:

There's correct grammar, which is a wonderful and useful thing, but there's also what sounds goodand what reads good, both of which are things I'm much more interested in.

If the phrase "he drug the cat across the lawn" works better in whatever context, I'm going to use it. I'm aware that the word should be "dragged," but I don't much care. Similarly, I'll misuse "lay, lie, laid."

I will be aware of my misuse, and I'll do it for the same reason that I don't always write in complete sentences: it sounds better.

This is probably why I'm a fiction writer and not a Way-Too-Stiff Newspaper writer.

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Even a fiction writer shouldn't allowed to get away with atrocious grammar. These uses do not, in any way, sound better, and certainly do not read well. Any good editor will either correct them, or reach for a rejection slip. More likely the latter.

Just a couple such errors in the first few pages is an automatic rejection with many agents and editors, and rightfully so.

I don't know anyone who thinks lie/lain/laid errors sound better or read well, and I certainly can't imagine anyone thinking "I drug the cat" should not be reason enough to stop reading right there.

Jamesaritchie said:

Even a fiction writer shouldn't allowed to get away with atrocious grammar. These uses do not, in any way, sound better, and certainly do not read well. Any good editor will either correct them, or reach for a rejection slip. More likely the latter.

Just a couple such errors in the first few pages is an automatic rejection with many agents and editors, and rightfully so.

I don't know anyone who thinks lie/lain/laid errors sound better or read well, and I certainly can't imagine anyone thinking "I drug the cat" should not be reason enough to stop reading right there.

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Okay, this is bothering me. I've been debating whether to make this post for the last ten minutes and I can't get around it.

Verb conjugation is one of the most difficult concepts in the english language. There is a multitude of irregular verbs and different rules drawn from multiple languages. To the average reader, conversational english is king; proper english is stiff and boring. I also believe that "good" agents and publishers are completely aware of the idea.

I don't think that allowing the use of conversational english is a deal breaker in most cases. It's my opinion and I could be very wrong. However, there are a flood of successful books from the "good" agents and publishers that are filled with such errors.

Also as a part of my opinion, I think that adhering too tightly to proper form does our craft a disservice by alienating the common reader. They don't care about differing forms of verbs, they just know what feels comfortable to them. I'd venture to say that most Americans, maybe even english speakers worldwide, don't have the first clue that there are verbs that have different versions for objects and living beings.

I'd be hard pressed to find a single person around me that could tell me when a lie/lain/laid/lay error occured. I can't imagine one of them putting a book down because they came across the phrase "I drug the cat," unless it was at the end of a litany of other errors.

I respect you James, but lately I've been reading a lot of messages from you that come across (to me) as snobby and supremist. I doubt that you're really that way, but it makes me uncomfortable, and I worry sometimes how it makes the other contributors that you are actually responding to (yes, I'm aware that I shouldn't end my sentence with a preposition, but it feels more conversationally comfortable to me).

Amiton.

To elaborate on my earlier point, the biggest thing is when misusing grammar, to be aware of doing it, and to have a reason for it.

I don't think I gain anything from the misuse. PeeDee, I'd be interested to hear what you think you gain from it. (Genuinely interested for craft reasons, not snarky if that's the way I came across.)

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The thing I gain from it is a certain fluidity of structure. A great deal of how I write fiction is with an ear toward how it would sound read aloud, because I find that solves so many of my problems. One thing I'll do is, if there's a sentence that's uncomfortable (for whatever reason: it's too stiff, to wordy, two words that are side by side are tongue-twisting) then I'll change it. If, in the result of changing it, I'm grammatically improper, then I am. I've written a more fluid piece of work.

Go read some Ray Bradbury short stories. He's not always grammatically proper. Nor Dickens, nor Steinback, nor many other authors.

As with all things, be aware of doing it, and be aware of whyyou're doing it. I have a comfortable reason (to make it read gooder) and so I'll break my grammar. If you have a solid reason, then do it. If it works, keep it, if it doesn't, kill it.

I could keep elaborating, but I think that's the gist of my point again.

(Sure. I can sire fictional babies; it costs five fictional dollars, though.)