Structure - how long?

Hi Dawn nice to meet you!

Ive been having a few of those issues myself working on a new 'thick' fantasy first novel. (I actually am also doing a writing course so the feedback I get there is helping me), where they actually recommend a complete outline or plot of main events if nothing else to guide you along, (if your a new writer: more importantly) so you dont lose the threads of your story all over the place.

Well, I got started on my structure/outline and found myself tiring after a week of sorting everything out etc...I decided to keep the most valid main points in the end, of the entire beginning/middle/end, and really thought 'ah to hell with it' lets just get started and let the flow take you where it feels it ought to go.. so... ending up with 3/4 outline I started writing, and as I began to write, I know I've already written things which will/have changed some of the points in my original structure but thats not necessarily a bad thing, it just means that my creativity allowed a different route or a few changes!

Maybe it helps if you begin to write the book when you feel that you have enough grasp on the story's background, and you feel you are ready to give it a bash..... if not you can always stop - go back to your structure for reference and refine that also.

Perhaps its even helpful to work on the two together, as you go along remembering that the chapter breakdown you have done is your main guide, and the story you are now writing will help you to not feel that you have to stick too rigidly to it.

Many people start without much plotting anything, (apart from in their heads maybe), whilst others like to have a solid structure or scene breakdown/outline whatever you want to call it!

I believe its a personal thing, and a few have confirmed that here, in what works for one may not work for another. And I guess newbies will also find out their own best way of doing it after some experience there! Hope that will give you some pointers!

PS I like to do a personal profile too on all the main characters, this helps you to really know your main people well, and helps you to describe and define the characters in the story.

Not all novels are big.
Some people do a lot of planning, some do little.
If you think you might be overdoing it, perhaps it's time to start the next step.

I like reading a meaty book - it scares people on planes. But, that being said, the 300 page pb fantasy novel seems to be an endangered species. A long convoluted plot is good when done without filler, but a tightly paced, roller coaster ride like Gemmell is getting harder to find.

Structure? I'm supposed to spend time on structure?

Remando said:

Novels are BIG. We know this. And in order to write one, it must be structured, right? Well, how long do you novel-writing-been-there-done-it people spend on the structuring?

I've been working on something now for a few months - characters, plot, a chapter-by-chapter plan; and it's just occured to me that am I going for over-kill? Will it turn out contrived and forced one I start writing?

Any advice/opinions muchly appreciated!

Dawn

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I suffer from structureophobia, lol. I write most of my novels first then structure them after I finish the first draft.

Remando said:

Why is this writing lark never simple?!

Dawn x

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If it was simple, everyone would do it. The difficulty is what separates us from them.

Remando said:

Novels are BIG. We know this.Dawn

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Big how?

Big in page volume?

Big in how much work it takes?

All books are not high in page count.

New writers should, according to what the experts here at AW say, keep first novel word counts around a 100,000.

Big novels of high page count are for seasoned, well known writers, who have a buying readership.

One can sell a first novel of 80,000 to 100,000 words much easier than a 400,000 work.

Publishers want to sell books, and only books.

Well known writers can write higher page count books and the publisher knows they'll sell.

Publishers have no history on a new writer and more than likely wouldn't want to take a chance on a BIG book.

Unless, you've written the next Gone with the wind.

Since you haven't started writing as yet, you might take into consideration the length of your BIG book.

Planning is never bad. Planning, if you are an outliner, will give you material as you move through the ms.

The better you know your characters the better you can feed thier traits into the ms, and into the readers hearts.

Good luck.

I only have a vague structure: exciting beginning, something cool in the middle that moves the story to the fireworks at the end. Then I write and shape at the end. SInce I often write myteries, I do have in mind what clues I want to leave and where I want to leave them. I plot those and the big events and then just start at the beginning and write to them.

Remando said:

Novels are BIG. We know this. And in order to write one, it must be structured, right? Well, how long do you novel-writing-been-there-done-it people spend on the structuring?


Dawn

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I think all novels seem massive until after you've written a couple. But I don't spend a second on structure. As far as I'm concerned, structure is one of those things that should take care of itself, IF you open a novel correctly.

Start a novel in the right place and in the right manner, and structure becomes pretty much automatic. Or it should.

Unless you're doing something really unusual with the structure, then a novel is uphill and circular. It's uphill in the sense that the difficulties and stakes keep increasing, and it's circular in the sense that the edning comes all the way back around and touches the beginning.

Not only the structure of a novel, but also the ending, is determined by how the first chapter is written.

(I mentioned this before in a previous post.)

Yeah, structure shouldn't be that hard. If you can type 3000 words per chapter, you would only have to write 27 chapters to equal 80,000 words. (If you can type 3000 words a day, you can write a novel in 27 days!)

Not bad, eh?

So if you can think up 27 scenes or divide the chapters up making them shorter with 2 scenes per chapter, you can see how easy the struggle to write a novel can really be. The number itself, 80,000, can seem pretty big, after all.

Read a good book on scriptwriting to learn about structuring a novel. It strips things to basics so you can see the skeleton under the mass of wordage.

Take a film you know well (action adventure types are stong on plot) and make a simple outline from it as a learning exercise. Do this for several movies.

You'll find common elements in the openings, middle bits, and The Big Finish that will work to help you structure a novel. A little practice with some favorite movies will impart a huge insight into structuring your work.

Also check out the structure of stage play scripts. They usually come in three acts, each act piling on the problems via dialogue until the climax. Reading plays will also help you a lot in writing dialogue.

My own writing career got a huge boost from the fact that I took a number of drama classes in college.

Good luck!

Ditto on the scriptwriting advice. A lot of novelists recommend the Syd Fields book on three-act structure, which applies pretty well to novels too.

I don't do huge amounts of pre-writing, but I do keep a three-act structure in mind, and sort of work toward the turning points at the end of each act, and by the time I get there, I have notes for the next act and an idea of the next turning point, and so on to the end.

JD

How long is a piece of string?

caw

Structure? Geeze.

I spend the same amount of time on structure that I do on character planning, plotting, outline, motivations, backstory, and research.

That is to say, I do all of it, all the time, during all the moments when I'm not actually writing. I'm doing it all frantically in my head, hoping to God that the next scene is not the one where I finally screw my book up.

I haven't botched anything too badly yet. Mostly, I just keep going. The fog clears bit by bit and gives me enough room to keep going further.

I can't imagine actually mapping out all that stuff months in advance. I'd be too disintereted to write the damned novel.

Soccer Mom said:

I only have a vague structure: exciting beginning, something cool in the middle that moves the story to the fireworks at the end. Then I write and shape at the end. SInce I often write myteries, I do have in mind what clues I want to leave and where I want to leave them. I plot those and the big events and then just start at the beginning and write to them.

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This is how I work also. I've tried to structure my novels more than just an idea of beginning, middle and end (like chapter by chapter as some do) but I find I just end up writing the book and not chapter overviews. I write mysteries and childrens books and have never been able to do outlines for any of them. It can make it incredibly hard to write sometimes, especially if you're stuck on a scene or don't know where to go next, but for me, it usually all works out in the end. I guess if you feel you're going overboard with your outline, just try writing and see what happens.

John61480 said:

(I mentioned this before in a previous post.)

Yeah, structure shouldn't be that hard. If you can type 3000 words per chapter, you would only have to write 27 chapters to equal 80,000 words. (If you can type 3000 words a day, you can write a novel in 27 days!)

Not bad, eh?

So if you can think up 27 scenes or divide the chapters up making them shorter with 2 scenes per chapter, you can see how easy the struggle to write a novel can really be. The number itself, 80,000, can seem pretty big, after all.

Click to expand...

I like this idea. Good one

Don't worry. Jump right in and start writing. It will be cold at first but you get used to the temperature real quick...
The hard part is pacing up and down the shore trying to pick that perfect place to enter the water...