First or Third?

wordmonkey · Oct 22, 2006

OK, I think I've found an angle to work on the novel that scares me away from writing it.

The obvious way to go is with the main character telling his story, which offers a great opening line/page. However, if I do that, I have to stay in that flow and can only really tell what he knows.

I could jump back and forth between first and third person between chapters, and I've read books that do that, but it seemed a bit of a cop out.

I could go in the omnipotent narrator route, which would make it easier to jump around the various characters and their arcs, but then I loose the great opening.

Anyone hit this issue? Resolved it? Have any words of wisdom to share?

ChaosTitan · Oct 22, 2006

Use third person limited. It allows you to get into the POV character's head, but you aren't limited to a single narrator. The POV can change in different chapters, or even different scenes.

Tracey · Oct 22, 2006

I agree with chaos. Third person limited is the only style I write and I find it works quite well. I also think it's the easiest for most writers and readers to adapt to.

veinglory · Oct 22, 2006

I agree. You can tell the story from the MC;s point of view without using 1st person. I find 1st and third give equal access, just in different ways. And with third you can bring in many charcaters if you want. Of course you can also use multiple 1st--I think switching narrators but staying in 1st is much less jarring than jumping form 1st to third. Of course many place do this, mysteries in particular may give the MC in third and the villain in first.

Ad Astra · Oct 22, 2006

Onoz, am I the only one who uses first person?

I personally find third-person too exhausting.

veinglory · Oct 22, 2006

I use first sometimes, but know it limits my publication options. Most places are open to 3rd, some are explicitly closed to 1st. Very few have 1st as the norm.

loquax · Oct 22, 2006

A LOT of people write novels in first person, but the ratio is much more on third person's side when you talk about publishing. I think it's because on the surface first person is easier to write, yet deep down it's very difficult to do well.

Ad Astra · Oct 22, 2006

That encourages me.

[/sarcasm]

But I'll try, I suppose.

(sorry for hijacking the thread)

Bufty · Oct 22, 2006

You can't hijack your own thread!

Glad you're encouraged, but I notice you don't ask why First person is regarded as difficult for a newcomer. If you don't know, how are you going to avoid the pitfalls?

Ad Astra said:
That encourages me.

[/sarcasm]

But I'll try, I suppose.

(sorry for hijacking the thread)

Ad Astra · Oct 22, 2006

Ergo, I think you misinterpreted me.

I didn't create this thread, somebody else did. And I've read An Idiot's Guide To Writing a Novel, so I know why first person is hard. It limits your description of events and whatnot.

In fact, I'm now considering rewriting everything to make it third person. But I'll save that for the end.

IThinkICan29 · Oct 22, 2006

I'll tiptoe out on the limb. Why is first person difficult for newbies? And please discuss the limitations. I prefer 3rd person (limited/omniscent). Although, with 3rd person limited.....aww heck this ain't my thread. I'll leave it alone!

ORION · Oct 22, 2006

I evolved over time from third person to first person. You slowly (sometimes) find your voice in a POV. I ended up three years later rewriting my first novel form third to first. The story many times will tell you what it needs. The character will talk to you. I am a fairly dramatic person and an excellent liar so first person works for me.
*smile*

veinglory · Oct 22, 2006

I have written two novels and a dozen novellas in third limited (all but 2 for e-publication), but my last was in 1st. It can add intimacy and personality and I knew where I was going to submit it. I still had some readers chastise me for venturing into the dreaded first person--but also a 10/10 review and pretty good sales.

However I have a slightly Pavlovian reaction to first having read a lot that was very bad indeed--mainly repetitive sentence structures (I, I, I), lack of description, POV/character not nuanced enough leading to the story being dull. Bad first has the character describing what they do like stage directions all the time (c.f. describing the world from their POV). Mary Sue + 1st person is like being stabbed with heated pokers, add present tense and it is heated, acid-soaked pokers.

That said, I adore Jim Butcher. He revived my love of first person.

ChaosTitan · Oct 22, 2006

Ad Astra said:
Onoz, am I the only one who uses first person?

I personally find third-person too exhausting.

Based on the needs of the OP, third person limited seems the best alternative. I've written in both, and enjoy reading in both, though I do prefer third. I like to tell a story from multiple points of view, and third-limited allows for that.

Bufty · Oct 22, 2006

Apologies, Ad Astra.

And IthinkIcan, the one thing everybody here does is 'hijack' threads. It's not an offence in the least - it's the accepted destiny of all threads.

Bufty said:
You can't hijack your own thread!

Glad you're encouraged, but I notice you don't ask why First person is regarded as difficult for a newcomer. If you don't know, how are you going to avoid the pitfalls?

Provrb1810meggy · Oct 22, 2006

My two novels are both first person, present tense. I understand this is risky and hard to do well, but any other way, they don't seem to work for me. However, it seems like this POV is more acceptable in YA.

wordmonkey · Oct 22, 2006

WHAT THE.....? I turn my back for a few minutes and find my thread hijacked!

Seriously. Thanks to all who threw in their two cents, even if those two cents were for the hijacking.

The suggestion offered is do-able for me. It's how I did the first novel (in theory, due for release today, spookily enough). And it would work.

But I have this awesome line. Y'know, like having a first line that reads, "This is how I died."

That isn't the line, but you know that's a hook.

RedMolly · Oct 22, 2006

I like first person... depending upon the circumstances, of course. I've always been a sucker for first-person narratives that sound just like someone sitting down and telling you a story. (Of course, I've been known to hang around in dive bars for the sole purpose of gleaning interesting life stories, so you may want to take this with a shakerful of salt.)

Especially if your character has a truly unique voice or perspective (cf. "Catcher in the Rye," "Bastard out of Carolina," Robin Hobb's "Assassin" and "Fool" trilogies), first-person POV offers unparalleled access to the real meat of a story.

(Also, unreliable first-person narrators=one of the best things ever.)

Soccer Mom · Oct 22, 2006

I happen to love first person. I don't care for Janet Evanovich's other novels but I absolutely adore her Stephanie Plum novels. I FEEL her. First person can be so much fun and it really works well in mystery. It keeps you honest. You have to play fair with your readers.

I do tend to write third person for my children's writing. I'm not sure why, but it just feels right. Perhaps because so much of it is being read to them. You don't see first person PB or early reader.

Anthony Ravenscroft · Oct 22, 2006

I wrote a short story to prove a point. Present-tense second-person. It's a hoot, with imperatives all over the place.

The first-person stuff I review often has the problem of trying to go omniscient without clarifying that the narrator is guessing, which either suggests the narr's really God, or that the writer's not up to the task. The tense requires that the reader spend most of his time looking through one pair of eyes -- this is so inherently limiting that the writer strays "out the eyeholes" from frustration, conscious or not.

Soccer Mom · Oct 22, 2006

Maybe that's why I like it. My background is in drama and it's just so much fun to BE someone else for a while. It's like playing pretend. I just never grew up.

Anthony Ravenscroft · Oct 22, 2006

One way to salvage some lame first-tense is to ensure the narr has some sort of faux-third interior dialogue -- the narrator's silent narrator, if you will.

I wrote a novel where the narrator's very highly literate, reflected in his internal thoughts, but his speech is very terse. Both of these create the personality, external & internal, for the reader, & are clearly diffferent from the other speakers.

inanna · Oct 22, 2006

It must be the genre I've been reading in lately, because everything I pick up seems to be written in 1st person. Lately, I've been putting them back down, simply because I'm tired of it. Unless the voice is really strong it starts to feel like the same character over and over again (this may have to do with reading in the same genre tho'...)

I prefer third person limited in reading and writing. But wordmonkey, if you have one of those awesome opening lines and you think you can sustain the voice, then by all means...I say go for it.

pdr · Oct 22, 2006

Here we go again - ad infinitum!

Seems like every two weeks some poor struggling writer wants to know if s/he can use the dreaded 1st person.

Can't honestly see what the fuss is about. And frankly I've never had a problem selling a 1st person short story.

Tell the story the best way for the main character. Sometimes it's 1st and sometimes it's 3rd. Sometimes it's 2nd or even 2nd plural (We) but do what works for the character and the story.

Badly written 3rd POV is as bad as badly written 1st
Badly written omniscient is terrible.

Just write the best story/novel you can in the best way for the character.

veinglory · Oct 22, 2006

That is all true. I've sold 1st person short stories, even first person present tense. But novels outside of certain areas (chick lit etc) are different. If that's the best form for the story, it's the right artistic choice--but editors may turn 1st down sight unseen, or set the bar higher because of the anti-first bias that is very much out there. I needed to take my first person novella to a different market than is usual for me.

First or Third?

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