Things you shouldn't believe

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HConn

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Over on Making Light Teresa Nielsen Hayden discusses some common misconceptions about publishing:


Conventional unwisdom on publishing

Here's a sample:

I’ve been hearing the “publishing is becoming a winner-take-all sweepstakes” riff since I started working in the industry. It’s not true, and it’s not becoming true.

Check it out.
 
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soloset

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A quick test: raise your hand if you only buy bestsellers. No? Okay, raise your hand if the majority of your book purchases are current bestsellers. Right. Now raise your hand if your bookbuying decisions are based on marketing buzz. If you still aren’t raising your hand, you’re a normal book-buying reader, and the Wall Street Journal is chin-deep in hogwash on this point.

This is SO true. I look at my shelves, and at the books sitting in the pile to be read... and the other pile to be read... and the, cough, other other pile to be read, and at the list on Amazon of books I'm going to buy sooner or later, and not one of them is a current bestseller. And the majority weren't, ever (although they probably qualify over the lifetime of the book by now).

I think sometimes people forget to do a common-sense check when they're bewailing the "state of the industry" or "how hard it is to get published". Or deciding to go with a micro-press.
 

expatbrat

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I will admit to buying wine with the little gold medals on the bottle. Those cute little medals suck me in everytime.

I do buy and read best sellers. I read a lot so I can read these and read lots of other books too and not miss out on anything. Nothing wrong with a best seller IMO.
 

Misty_Blue

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I often glance at the first page before buying and if that doesnt grab me I put it down again. How many of you do that? But I agree with Imelda about the annoying habit of bookstores selling one set of trilogies!!!

My husband is a sci/fi fantasy fiction fan..(fff) and bought Robert Jordans.. The Wheel of Time! He was riveted and urged me to read it, which I never got round too and don't have the motivation to read 11 books.

But anyway, when he went back to buy Book 2 (there are supposedly 11 in the series) someone else had bought it. However, the other 9 books were there in the shop! Grrr..

Anyway they re-ordered Book 2 (just to keep him out of their shop whinging probably). Sufface to say, my husband is not a writer and has no interest in writing but can dream up some fantastic stuff for plots of this kind.

So now!! Wait for it... instead of urging me to read the series, he's thickening my head with all sorts of ideas and stories about writing one myself (being a freelance writer)

So..the point of this tale is.. (i think)...don't let your other half buy thick bungling fantasy trilogies if you're a writer, or you'll never get any peace! ;)
 

RedMolly

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I'm a bad, bad novelist.

Everything I'm reading now, or have bought in the last four or five months, is/has been nonfiction.

Honestly, the tone of much current fiction is just... meh. I don't have the slightest interest in reading about angels or saintly little girls in heaven or New Agey platitudes or wisecracking detectives solving their thirty-eleventh murder case. And that's what's on the fiction bestseller lists right now.

(Two of my most recent purchases, though, "The God Delusion" and "Letter to a Christian Nation," are on the nonfiction lists. Hmmm...)

Seriously, can somebody please recommend me a really good novel with nothing idiotic or platitudinous in it? I was thinking about picking up the new Cormac McCarthy... anyone read it?
 

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Do nothing else until you've gone out and bought the McCarthy.

I'm not kidding.
 

badducky

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I recently went through about a week where I was really sad "Lives of the Monster Dogs" by Kirsten Bakis isn't available at BnN and Bor and BAM, RedMolly.

Everytime I walk past the James Patterson aisle I also get the urge to reshelve everything by the last name of his ghost.

And, I may not even be on the list, yet, but when I get there I am probably going to be in the mids, and I seem to be paying my bills on time and buying drinks for girls, so I'm not worried about the state of publishing. I'm far more concerned about things I can control, like the book I'm supposed to be working on right now.
 

Rabe

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Imelda said:
The big chain stores (which are the only bookstores around where I live) don't do writers any favours, though. Especially with fantasy, which has sos many trilogies. They'll stock perhaps one of each book in the trilogy, and someone comes along, buys the first book, leaving only the second and third on the shelf. If that reader decides not to finish the trilogy, the two books sit on the shelf for months because no one else can buy the first one. It really winds me up.

I'm really spoiled in this regard because I don't have any big chain stores around me for at least three hour drive.

What I *DO* have however is a really awesome, locally owned independant bookstore that has seen a chance of owners - from parents to daughter.

So, if they don't have what I want, they get it for me. Usually within a week or two. When they see novels by authors they know I like (and they *know* I'm picky!) they'll order in the new ones for me. Which makes me feel *really* guilty when I go out to other towns and go to the big chain stores. I feel like I'm cheating on my wife or something by doing that. So I'm not sure I can relate to the above - however, what is relatable is this:

Go to the information desk and ask about "ordering" books. Shouldn't cost you anymore than the price of the book you wanted anyway. Sure, may take a week or so to get in (if the book is still available) but if you let the other books languish on the shelf for months and months because you can't get the first book anyway, something tells me that you wouldn't mind waiting a week to get the first in the series! ;)

But, as novelists (or wannabe novelists in any case) we should be encouraging people to buy books in whatever manner they can - whether off the shelf, by special order or just online. I'd hate to think someone was letting the second and third book of my trilogy languish on the shelf because they just couldn't be bothered to ask the nice bookseller to order in the first of the trilogy.

Rabe...
 

Maryn

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I do read some bestsellers (oh, the shame), but I rarely buy them, at least not new. I reserve my book-buying bucks for the less-known books, because I know with absolute certainty that in fairly short order the best sellers that retail for $25 and up in hardcover will have a paperback edition for $6.99. At about the same time, hardbound copies will appear, gently used, at thrift stores for $4.99. If I can wait a bit longer, I can get the paperback at the thrift store for $2.99 or less.

Maryn, so mature she can defer gratification, when it comes to books (don't ask about ice cream)
 

janetbellinger

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I'm blushing a little to admit I first look at the artwork on the cover. If that doesn't do anything for me, I don't look at it any further, unless it is by one of my few favourite authors.
 

Jamesaritchie

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bestsellers

I read as many bestsellers as possible, and I think that as a rule (There are always exceptions), the best novels and the best writers out there is found on the bestsellers lists.

I see no reason at all to call a novel good that most people don't want to read, and I see no reason at all to try to write novels people want to read when you don't respect their taste in reading.
 

Euan H.

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Jamesaritchie said:
I see no reason at all to call a novel good that most people don't want to read,
Well, I guess that's the final nail in the coffin for Madam Bovary, then. May as well throw out the rest of the Penguin Classics as well.
 

RedMolly

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Just 'cause you feel it doesn't mean it's there
I see no reason at all to try to write novels people want to read when you don't respect their taste in reading.

I have seldom shared public transportation with someone whose taste in reading (as evidenced by what s/he had his/her nose buried in) I respected. And you know what? I don't write for those people.

Lots of people don't like to think--they like to be entertained. Fine. That's their right. I support their right to mindless distraction. But I'd rather have a smaller number of readers with whom I might be able to carry on an intelligent conversation than a mob of brainless fans who are going to stumble over any word of Latinate derivation.

(And I don't even write "literary" fiction. Hoo hoo...)
 

Shadow_Ferret

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I write mindless entertainment. I guess I'll be on the bestseller lists then. :)

And most of what I read are bestselling authors. Or were at one time. Or had at least had one bestseller in their catalog of books. That's an awful lot of authors and an awful lot of GOOD authors.

I guess I see nothing wrong with reading them or striving to emulate their success.

Euan H. said:
Well, I guess that's the final nail in the coffin for Madam Bovary, then. May as well throw out the rest of the Penguin Classics as well.
You realize of course that if those books weren't selling, Penguin wouldn't be publishing them. They aren't doing it as a public service.
 
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RG570

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I think it's incredibly fallacious to discount every novel on the bestseller lists, and equally as dumb to arbitrarily say that those are the benchmark to which everyone who wants to write seriously must write.

I've read obscure, small press novels that nobody will ever read which were incredible, and I have read bestsellers that actually had substance. I hate this statement so very much, but I'll have to use it just this once: "It's all good."

"Best" might work for things like bandsaws and water treatment facilities and other measurable objects, but I don't think it can honestly be applied to novels. I think it's rather meaningless in the end, because I don't think novels are really objects.
 

RedMolly

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Just 'cause you feel it doesn't mean it's there
Bestseller != good, bestseller != bad. Correlation is not causation, or something like that.

This week, I was not wowed by the contents of the hardcover fiction bestseller list. Three weeks from now... who knows?

(That said, I do think enjoying James Paterson or Mary Higgins Clark requires a special kind of mindless... not stupid, mindless. But hell, I watch an awful lot of Cartoon Network. Love those Aqua Teens.)
 

Euan H.

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Shadow_Ferret said:
You realize of course that if those books weren't selling, Penguin wouldn't be publishing them. They aren't doing it as a public service.
Yes. I also understand that the original post said "that most people don't want to read" and not "that nobody reads". Are you saying that most people want to read, say, Paradise Lost? or Madam Bovary? Really? :)

The logic that best-sellerdom is a mark of quality is plain wrong. By that same argument, McDonalds makes better food than a 4-star restaurant. On the other hand, dismissing best-sellers as badly-written just because they're best-sellers is also equally wrong. Neither of them is really about books; rather, IMO, they're statements about how the person who makes them wants to position themseves socially. The kinds of books that people say they read says a lot about them as people, or at least, other people think that it does, which comes to the same thing.

I've read obscure, small press novels that nobody will ever read which were incredible, and I have read bestsellers that actually had substance.
Likewise.
"Best" might work for things like bandsaws and water treatment facilities and other measurable objects, but I don't think it can honestly be applied to novels.
I think it can--it's just that 'best' is ultimately subjective, and varies not just across people, but also across times within the same person.
 

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Jamesaritchie said:
I see no reason at all to call a novel good that most people don't want to read

Define "most people." You don't think much of The Da Vinci Code as a novel, but it's a dead solid lock that more people have read it than have read, say, Mildred Pierce, which I dare say you (and I) would regard as a much better novel. Or, for that matter, any number of very fine genre-pigeonholed writers that I guarantee "most" people don't want to read.

"Most" people probably don't want to read your novels. Doesn't make them bad in my estimation, just not appealing to "most" people. For whatever reason, including genre, style, marketing, promotion.

Still puts you ahead of me, of course. Nobody seems to want to read my novels.

caw.
 

HConn

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Why has this thread turned into a discussion of the quality of bestselling novels? How many times do we have to have the same conversations?

There's a followup to the original discussion over on Making Light, discussing how much publishers rely on bestsellers to pay their bills, and whether they spend their energies looking for potential bestsellers to the exclusion of other kinds of books.

Does anyone else on Absolute Write find it frustrating that so many of the conversations here are just repeats of the same few discussions held over and over?
 

Jamesaritchie

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blacbird said:
Define "most people." You don't think much of The Da Vinci Code as a novel, but it's a dead solid lock that more people have read it than have read, say, Mildred Pierce, which I dare say you (and I) would regard as a much better novel. Or, for that matter, any number of very fine genre-pigeonholed writers that I guarantee "most" people don't want to read.

"Most" people probably don't want to read your novels. Doesn't make them bad in my estimation, just not appealing to "most" people. For whatever reason, including genre, style, marketing, promotion.

Still puts you ahead of me, of course. Nobody seems to want to read my novels.

caw.

Yes, and it's a dead solid lock why more people have read it, and it sure didn't have anything to do with the quality of the writing. But I'm not that against Dan Brown. He did what every writer is supposed to do. He found a way to make people want to read his story. I think his writing is, I also believe his ability to find a story people care about is equally good.

Dan Brown is, I think, an example of horrid writing, but also an example of what's good about even the worst book on the bestseller lists.

The same thing can be said of Robert James Waller. I don't know anyone who claims The Bridges of Madison County was well-written. The writing was horrid. Probably worse than anything Dan Brown has ever done.

But Like Da Vinci, the story captured millions of readers, the characters are still talked about, and that's what writing a novel is all about. I may blast Dan Brown's writing, and I certainly will blast Robert James Waller's writing, but I'm a grown man and I cried at the end of Bridges.

I'm not saying a novel is bad because almost no one wants to read it, but I am saying it's nonsense to say it's good because most most people don't want to read it, and it's equally nonsense to say the books on the bestseller list are bad because you or I don't like them.

I will say a book is lacking if it doesn't stand the test of time, and I will say most books very few people want to read are any good, bgut, sure, some of them are wonderful, and some of them will outlast us all.

But too many have the notion that such books are automatically better than anything on the bestseller list, and that anything on the bestseller list is horrible by default, and it's nonsense.

Anyone can call a book good or bad, but when almost no one wants to read a novel, well, it may still be a great novel, but there's no way on earth of saying it's a better novel than what's on the bestseller lists.

And when darned near everyone wants to read a novel, it may be lousy in some ways, but it is not crap, and there's no rational way of saying it's worse than a novel almost no one wants to read.
 

Jamesaritchie

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HConn said:
Why has this thread turned into a discussion of the quality of bestselling novels? How many times do we have to have the same conversations?

There's a followup to the original discussion over on Making Light, discussing how much publishers rely on bestsellers to pay their bills, and whether they spend their energies looking for potential bestsellers to the exclusion of other kinds of books.

Does anyone else on Absolute Write find it frustrating that so many of the conversations here are just repeats of the same few discussions held over and over?

I think it's highly pertinent to the original discussion. It is, I think, right at the core of it, in fact.

As for repreating the same dicussions, what's the alternative? Talk about each thing once, then forbid it from ever being brought up again?
 

HConn

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Jamesaritchie said:
I think it's highly pertinent to the original discussion. It is, I think, right at the core of it, in fact.

It is absolutely not the core of this discussion. It is, however, a familiar argument that is easy to have because it's been had so many times before.

Like a lot of easy things, it's dull and it wastes time and energy that could be better used.
 
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