Improv

[Amiton]

So...I was listening to the radio on my way in to the office and I started to think about artful creativity.

Music, comedy, and acting all have improvisation as a very high-level skill within their arts. The closest thing I could think of to compare with it in writing was a well-tuned dialog, and it's just not the same thing - or at least it isn't to me.

Is writing, as an art form, at it's highest through structure and refinement? Is all of the passion that comes from poetry and prose a product of lots of hard work, or can anyone illustrate an example that comes free-form through the writer the way improvisation flows from other creative artists?

Did that make any sense at all?

Amiton.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Personally, I've never considered comedy improv to be the highest-level of skill within it's art. I have never enjoyed any true improv. It all comes across as rather haphazard and unfunny.

There needs to be structure and form and preparation and rehearsals to make it seem spontaneous.

The same is true in music. I don't believe there is any real improv going on, even in jazz. There is a song structure, rehearsals, and planning so it appears like improv. Otherwise it would all sound like noise as each musician just does his own thing.

[Amiton]

That's exactly what makes it so skillful, however. I suppose there should have been some clarification on my part to say that I was talking about *good* improv =p

Amiton.

[icerose]

I think most writing you see began as improv, as did dance, acting, painting, it was through honing of the skills that it became good improv so to speak.

I mean when you just sit down and write and it flows, that is improv. So why not?

[rugcat]

The same is true in music. I don't believe there is any real improv going on, even in jazz. There is a song structure, rehearsals, and planning so it appears like improv. Otherwise it would all sound like noise as each musician just does his own thing.
As a jazz musician, I beg to differ.

Certainly there is a structure, a template if you will, in most jazz tunes. Within the confines of that structure, jazz musicians try to explore the almost endless variations that are possible. One can play the same tune a hundred times, and each time one constructs a solo, it will be different. If you’re a strong player, your solo will vary in part depending on what the other musicians are doing. Their playing will simultaneously be affected by what you are doing. This interaction, to me, is the essence of jazz. It is a fluid creative act. If that’s not improvisation, I don’t know what is. There’s no contradiction involved in talking about improvisation within the confines of a structure.

Many jazz tunes have a very basic structure which enables the players to range far afield.. There’s also free jazz, where the players indeed do their own thing without regard to any structure - but they still listen to each other. Usually, those attempts are less than completely successful, with long stretches of random noise. But occasionally, everything comes together to provide moments of inspired brilliance very different than traditional form based music.

Writing is different. Writing is, by its very nature, composition. The analogy in music might be like composing a string quartet or concerto. And whether composition or improvisation is a “higher” creative endeavor is a different question. Personally, I think we’re talking apples and oranges there.

[Shadow_Ferret]

I don't believe you said anything to dispute what I had said.

As a musician you don't sit down and just start wailing away with other musicians. You have a starting point. Maybe "Harlem Nocturne" and from there everyone has a point where they go off and solo.

[RedMolly]

As a musician you don't sit down and just start wailing away with other musicians. You have a starting point.

And the same is true for improv theater.

Your starting point might be a couple of characters ("bag lady," "gay optometrist," "streetwise nine-year-old"), a setting ("florist's shop, day before Mother's Day") or whatever, but you don't just show up and start spouting dialogue.

And one of the true pleasures of jazz is watching musicians who may have never even met before coming together and recreating a piece in their own likeness. One or more of the players may never have even heard the "starting point" tune before, but they can jump in and go.

Not sure if there's a real writing equivalent, though, or at least not one that anyone would actually want to read... since the author is a less immediate part of the experience and the words must do the job on their own, there's not that sense of personal connection you get from watching the expressions and interplay of actors or musicians.

Blogging, perhaps?

[rugcat]

I don't believe there is any real improv going on, even in jazz.
This is where we part company. Your idea seems to be that if there is a stucture, or even an agreed upon starting point, it's not really improv. I don't see it that way.

[Amiton]

Not sure if there's a real writing equivalent, though, or at least not one that anyone would actually want to read... since the author is a less immediate part of the experience and the words must do the job on their own, there's not that sense of personal connection you get from watching the expressions and interplay of actors or musicians.

Blogging, perhaps?

I guess this is the basis for my question. You and rugcat have very valid points that seem to indicate that the entire medium is pretty different. I guess the same is true for art in the line of painting and sculpting as well. It's the structure and composition of the piece that gives it it's beauty (with the possible exception of abstract art).

It was one of those things for me, though. Creatively, music has always been my first love, and the passion and immediacy of it was one of the best parts about it. I've always been able to write creatively as well, but it didn't reach me the same way when I was younger.

Amiton.

[hitchhiker]

Personally, I've never considered comedy improv to be the highest-level of skill within it's art. I have never enjoyed any true improv. It all comes across as rather haphazard and unfunny.

There needs to be structure and form and preparation and rehearsals to make it seem spontaneous.

The same is true in music. I don't believe there is any real improv going on, even in jazz. There is a song structure, rehearsals, and planning so it appears like improv. Otherwise it would all sound like noise as each musician just does his own thing.

I will partially agree. Structure is important. Planning, or in a writer's case:notecards, storyboards, outlining, etc.

But I imagine hip-hop originated with a litte improv. Another thread discussed making movies as good as the original books, and I think I'll stretch this thought along this line. Studios, like publishers, are in the business to make money. They know through market research and ticket/book sales what people want. You see it all the time in both the movie business and publishing.

While I somewhat agree with seeing what I'll call more consistency within a controlled, practiced, planned environment, I still think the idea of improvisation (even in writing) can lead to a new outlet of creativity, and possible a whole new idea/genre.

[RJLeahy]

I think I tend to put writing more in the class of sculpture, or even architecture, then music, dance or comedy.

[gp101]

I tip my hat to those actors who can walk into a room, be given just the characters' names and the situation, and then act out an entertaining scene right from the get-go. Likewise for any writer who can write a novel or short story with just the premise to start. Sadly, I'm not nearly talented to do either.

I think if you start solely with your premise and start writing without any outline, without knowing the ending, without really knowing any of the characters, you will definitely free-form, but unless you're a seasoned writer, or a bloody genius (for which I will resent you), you will probably end up with a descent story with lots of holes needing lots of revision at best; or a nonsensical mess at worst.

If however, you have all that "pre-writing" done and you start about the actual manuscript, only you don't follow your blueprint at all, I believe you are improvising. But it's a bit more controlled improvisation than in the first example, and I'd like to think--though I could be very wrong--that you'd have a better chance at creating something worth keeping or something that really works with this form of improv.

I think it's a pretty close comparison to actors rehearsing a scene for a movie, and on Take-8, they throw the script aside and improvise their own lines. If you watch "Inside the Actor's Studio" on Bravo, you'll find a lot of actors who enjoy improvving like this, but more often than not, that first improvved moment might not be the one they go with. It might be the fifth time they improv, or, they may go with the actual script lines because the improv didn't work. Or they'll edit together bits of the improv and bits of the script's lines.

To me, that's akin to our revision in manuscripts. You write the lines you feel get you through your preconceived outline, and you write those lines that burst into your head out of nowhere, that had no right being in your story initially. Then you pick and choose what works.

[gp101]

the way improvisation flows from other creative artists?

Did that make any sense at all?

Amiton.

Also, many artists in music and acting may prefer improvisation, but it doesn't mean their first cracks at it are any good. Once actors improvise a scene, they may use that as their blueprint instead of a script; likewise once a musician improvises a verse or melody he may use that as his starting point, and go from there. Or they will start over with something else. I have no surveys or data to back this up, but I'm willing to bet that most artists who improvise do not get what they want on the first couple tries. I'm willing to bet that even with improv they revise as much as a writer does.

As for your dialogue comparison, I think it's valid. Most of us, I think, might know the story ahead of time but not the dialogue, not all of it, so we improvise that part--and yes, how fun it is. But most of it will also be revised or tweaked in some way by the time you finish.

signed--

former college actor who hated acting, rescent musician tackling production. Yes, I'm a glutton for punishment.

[gp101]

oops... double-post

[RG570]

There is an equivalent of sorts in writing, and it's closely related to the surrealist movement. I think they called it "automatic writing" or something similar, but I don't like that term because then it conjures up images of bogus new age channelers and whatnot.

I'm trying to think of examples, but they seem to have slipped my mind at the moment.

[RedMolly]

Who was it who said of Kerouac's free, improvisational style "That's not writing, it's typing"? I'm thinking Hemingway, but I could be wrong...

[RedMolly]

Creatively, music has always been my first love

So jealous. I swear, I would trade any and all writing ability for musical talent. In a nanosecond.

How sad it is to be an aspiring singer at whose vocal stylings even one's own small children cringe...

[Sassenach]

Who was it who said of Kerouac's free, improvisational style "That's not writing, it's typing"? I'm thinking Hemingway, but I could be wrong...

Truman Capote.

[RedMolly]

Thanks, Sass. That's definitely more of a Capotesque snark, isn't it?

[Sunshine13]

Well, I haven't had a chance to go through this entire thread, so I may way off. But I think a lot of my writing is improv, mainly because I have a general idea, and then just go with it. I put some music on, close my eyes, and type describing the picture playing in my head on whatever scene I'm creating. Is that improv? I don't know. I have a begining, and an ending, and the middle just creates itself.

[The Lady]

Trying to understand the original post ( and really not getting jazz at all,I think the closest to improv as I see it, is flashing off a trigger in a set time.

I do this on another site. Trigger goes up. You log in and must return the piece within a set time. Ater doing this a few times and having the crap kicked out of your story, you learn to "flash" and structure at the same time. Generates heaps of story ideas and has the added thrill of being very exciting.
Is that improv? Don't know. Story is not complete of course. It has to be gone back to, but the first one is a major buzz.

[RG570]

So jealous. I swear, I would trade any and all writing ability for musical talent. In a nanosecond.

How sad it is to be an aspiring singer at whose vocal stylings even one's own small children cringe...

It's not that great. I've been "shredding" for many more years than I've been writing. It relies too much on other people, and finding the right people to play with can be excruciating. I finally gave up on the band thing and started writing, because my writing is less prone to suffer from external circumstances. It depends on nobody but me. Very few musicians can say that, I think.

[Amiton]

I do this on another site. Trigger goes up. You log in and must return the piece within a set time. Ater doing this a few times and having the crap kicked out of your story, you learn to "flash" and structure at the same time. Generates heaps of story ideas and has the added thrill of being very exciting.
Is that improv? Don't know. Story is not complete of course. It has to be gone back to, but the first one is a major buzz.

I do think in a way that's pretty close to improvisation. It seems very much like impromtu speaking, anyway. Even as an improvising soloist a musician would take a cue from a surrounding framework - for example, you still need to stay in the key of the song that you're improving over, or your melody isn't going to lay over the rhythm section very well - unless you're really slick and pull off something like laying the minor key over the transposed major key...but to be honest I'm not even sure that would work. I sure don't have the skill to figure it out offhand :D

I like that idea!

Amiton

[Amiton]

It's not that great. I've been "shredding" for many more years than I've been writing. It relies too much on other people, and finding the right people to play with can be excruciating. I finally gave up on the band thing and started writing, because my writing is less prone to suffer from external circumstances. It depends on nobody but me. Very few musicians can say that, I think.

Wow...my writing is very akin to my music. I love to just sit in a room alone with a piano or a guitar or just about any kind of horn and just play whatever is inside me. I do have to agree that playing with others can be torture until you find a good match, and that expression is unbelievable, but when it's just you and your song...that's special in a way that I've never found anywhere else.

Amiton.

[Kentuk]

We have improv, call it chat rooms.

[RG570]

Wow...my writing is very akin to my music. I love to just sit in a room alone with a piano or a guitar or just about any kind of horn and just play whatever is inside me. I do have to agree that playing with others can be torture until you find a good match, and that expression is unbelievable, but when it's just you and your song...that's special in a way that I've never found anywhere else.

Amiton.

Oh, I totally agree. I set up some decent chord changes on my sequencer, then wank until I get lost in the improvisation and forget that I'm playing a guitar, and it's great.

I was more talking about the differences between the two when you're concerned about producing something to eventually sell. To me, if selling a novel is like winning the lottery, then making it in music is a freakin' cataclysmic miracle.

[rugcat]

Oh,To me, if selling a novel is like winning the lottery, then making it in music is a freakin' cataclysmic miracle. True, but you can be a halfway decent writer and still never have anyone but friends and family see your work. If you're a halfway decent musician, you can always get at least a bar gig, where strangers come to listen, dance, have a good time, and even sometimes applaud. And they give you money.

Plus, writing can be satisfying, but few people would call it fun. Playing in a band (at least for me) is always fun, and sometimes, even satisfying.

Problem is, I'm a better writer than I am a musician.

[PeeDee]

There is improv when it comes to writing. Just that no one does it. Harlan Ellison's done it all his life and I've done it twice.

Take your typewriter (or laptop and printer) and go to a bookstore. Set up in the window. Have someone give you a title, maybe an opening sentence right on the spot. Write your short story and as you finish each page, tape it up on the window.

Look, you've just done improv.

It's a fine way to write. I love just falling headfirst into a short story for no other reason other than if I don't, it's embarassing. There's the adrenaline rush of "what if I can't think of anything!?" and then the delight when you find out that the story is there and you just have to give it form.

Everyone should do it at least once.

[Inkdaub]

Improv can produce some interesting results but it's pretty rare. Most improv is absolutely awful, even if it is proclaimed as genius. Thinking about it now I woulod say that the best improv I've heard was musical while the worst was comedy or theater. Actors will utilize improv to varying degrees in movies but they have the luxury of being able to do it over if it sucks.

I love the Coen Brothers and they don't let their actors improv...read whats on the script please. However, I love the films that Christopher Guest makes and they are almost totally improv within the loose confines of a general theme or storyline.

In a way writing is improv every time you fill the blank page. No matter how much planning you have done at some point you have to sit and make it up as you go.

[Rivana]

We talking flow-writing now? No stopping to think just write?
Sure I think it's possible to make some brilliant art that way no matter the genre. The really good improv -is the one where you don't realize that there was no plan. Poetry is ideal for it, music works too, so does prose, but it's an 'in the moment' talent that you can't keep up indefinitely. If you make it through a whole poem only having to edit once or twice you've got real talent. Make it through a minute of music and make it feel natural? That's brilliant as well. Write flash fiction and have only two things your beta notices? Very good.
So yes, improv, even brilliant improv exists all over the map. It may be rare, but it's there. But when it is, you'll rarely notice. Because it's just that good.

[Jamesaritchie]

Comedy improv is writing. So is acting improve. Anything a comedian of an actor can do, and any possible way they can do it, can be put down in words. That's all they do. They act out words, even if the acting or the comedy comes before the words.

Which means the words can also come first.

[RedMolly]

However, I love the films that Christopher Guest makes and they are almost totally improv within the loose confines of a general theme or storyline.

Ditto: see also "Curb Your Enthusiasm," in which the actors are given character sketches and a few basic plot points and are told to take it from there...

[jdparadise]

I do this on another site. Trigger goes up. You log in and must return the piece within a set time. Ater doing this a few times and having the crap kicked out of your story, you learn to "flash" and structure at the same time. Generates heaps of story ideas and has the added thrill of being very exciting.


What site is this, or is it private? Sounds like fun.

[The Lady]

I sent you a pm. Anyone else want to know where it is, just ask.